is tren over rated (5x more anabolic than test bla bla bla; feromones bla bla)

[whitewidow]

Both halotestin and tren are amazing steriods but both come with side-effects. I love any steroid you can instantly feel working and halotestin takes the cake in that department But Tren A does kick in pretty quick and once it kicks your recovery time speeds up dramatically and the protein synthesis is nutts. The thing with tren some people lactate from tren. You also have to throw in the trensomnia if you get real deal potent tren. So I say take both Tren and halotestin if you are a real competetive bodybuilder or a person why nows how to cycle correctly! I think some peole run Tren A for to long. I tend to only like to run tren for 4-6 weeks and throw in halo for 3-4 weeks at the end of a cycle. If you do not mind injectons Tren-A is the best choice but I think it is best injected almost daily or at least 5 days out of the week.

I tend to like to mix Tren-A and parabolin. primo is too expensive these days and without SRCS(san rafael chemical services) who used to test gear for bodybuilders alot of primo is Test prop or just arachis oil. most of the time they at least counterfeit it with some form of Test usually prop or Test e. Very hard to find legit primo and the UGL primo is usually weak made with low grade grade raws. Primo is another magical drug and is safer in my book but these days just to expensive and counterfeited to recommend!

So I would say use Tren-A or some sort of Tren ester! and when you are cutting have some fun and stack your tren with halotestin! That will def bring out the animal in anybody! Like I said I tend to like all steroids that work fast so I lean towards test suspension,Test prop, Tren A, Halotestin. I think my favorite is halotestin  just due to the rapid onset of the drug! It is a oral steroid that you can just feel right away and gives you instant strength and overall sense of well-being! No insomnia , limited sides whenever I took Halo.

[Overload]

Tren is a wonderful compound, but it comes with  the most sides from my experience with it.

400mg a week is enough to see some results, stacked with at least a low dose of Test.

Earlier this year i was on Test/Tren/Primo and had some amazing results, however my blood pressure goes through the roof on Tren and it makes my hair fall out like crazy. It's the only compound that makes me "feel" like I'm on something that is effecting me negatively.

Used in moderation it's probably the best steroid there is.

[El Diablo Blanco]

Brutal cut and paste  

Tren does have some extreme effects.  The BP and insomnia are awful, but the muscle growth and the confidence is insane.  I know it is an old wives tale, but on tren I just have this thing about me that attracts pussy like crazy.  Chicks who otherwise don't talk to me all of a sudden are stepping up to me to make small talk.  It is very true.

I agree with what onetime said...maybe not 5lbs for every 1lb that test gives you, but still better results mg for mg. But it's also more expensive, mg for mg. So there's that to weigh in too.

But since it's a 19-nor derivative, it's not very estrogenic in and of itself (the 19-nor derivatives don't aromatize easily, though they can, if you crank doses high enough...you ram enough of anything at an enzyme and you're bound to get something done, but that's off-the-charts tren use we're talking about). More likely, the other drugs you take with it will find the aromatase enzyme and be converted to estrogen derivatives. Tren is a hog at binding androgen receptors, and the other shit you take with it will either get cleared from the body, aromatize, reduce to a DHT derivative, or just stay bound to the globulins in the blood. The body doesn't work in absolutes, of course, but that's a likely outcome.

The 19-nor derivatives are also weakened when they come into contact with the reductase enzyme in sex specific tissues (i.e. scalp, prostate, skin, etc...). So, androgenic sides are weaker too. Again, not to say it isn't possible, but it's less than what you get from testosterone, mg for mg. When 19-nor derivatives like tren hook up with the reductase enzyme, they get converted to weaker androgens that don't have much binding affinity for the receptors in sex tissues. That's good...they can't bind as easily, so signals aren't transmitted as easily. It can still happen, mind you, just not as efficiently as when test reduces to DHT.

So, tren is a pretty safe drug (I know it has street cred for being harsh, but I always wonder about that). I have used tren, got great results, no discernible sides, and felt great on it. It's a bit pricier where I come from, and not always easy to get, which is why I wind up sticking to good old test.

Given my druthers, I like stacking tren as my 19-nor derivative, Masteron as my DHT-derivative, and methandrostenolone or oxymetholone as my 17-beta (read: test) derivative. When I can't find 17-beta derivatives, it's plain old test.

If you can't grow to 200lbs at less than 10% bodyfat at 5'10" or less on 150 mg week of tren, 100mg a week of masteron and 250mg a week of test, you should try golf or billiards.

[_bruce_]

"Cute" and paste - epic code word for sharing the showers after mincing swords.

[doriancutlerman]

Educational fking post right here

Agreed.  It's not often I give a fellow Getbigger props for intelligence, but snx is a sharp guy.

[Cleanest Natural]

Tren is great. If you don't believe me, ask Groink.

[snx]

Brutal cut and paste  

Tren does have some extreme effects.  The BP and insomnia are awful, but the muscle growth and the confidence is insane.  I know it is an old wives tale, but on tren I just have this thing about me that attracts pussy like crazy.  Chicks who otherwise don't talk to me all of a sudden are stepping up to me to make small talk.  It is very true.

Sorry man...not cut and paste. I never cut and paste, unless it's pics of hot girls.

A lot of my post-grad work was in endocrinology, and a second post-grad degree in business. So yeah, I know a thing or two about the stuff. Also, my post was pretty crappily written...how the hell would you think that's cut and paste? Anyone who writes that poorly and gets published should shoot the publisher, and then shoot themselves as a writer for submitting that hogwash.

But it's still right. And I typed it out myself. I am many things, many of them dishonorable, but I'm no plagiarist. I take great umbrage to your baseless accusations.

Also, I've been raging on test lately and am easily provoked. So there's that....

[bigmc]

i tried tren once

i was sweating so bad i had to take a spare shirt to work

i also couldnt sleep at all

but it is very effective

my take is that mild steroids are better to sustain a long term bb lifestyle

[TrueBB93]

well, yeah, i only meant mg per mg powerfulness.

but by that logic, test beats tren too.

hey true b93, you asking if 150mg tren weekly isnt too little, well, depends,its small dosage, but it works, esp when stacked with little bit of test.

150mg tren+150 test prop weekly is a solid cycle for non competitors

good stuff man, Im going to give it a run sometime, 150 test p+ 150 tren A week then slowly build when it comes to tren maybe going to 50 mg ed of both =700 mg a week total.


Great thread 

[Tre]

100% genetic twink here

(semi)Jacked on tren.  Flufftwink on test. 

Tren works.  Your mileage may vary.

[mr.turbo]

"Cute" and paste - epic code word for sharing the showers after mincing swords.

 

[AlphaMaleDawg]

150mg of tren isn't too low, if you're stacking with other drugs to get up around half a gram per week, especially if you aren't trying to win a bodybuilding show or something like that.

150mg of tren per week on its own won't do much though, and I would never say it would. It's not completely worthless, but you'd probably want to get to 350 to 400mg per week of tren, if that's all you wanted to use. If you're a guy just looking to get a bit bigger and stronger and feel good. If you want to do a show, better crank it up there.

And yes, tren enanthate is preferable to tren acetate. Short-acting esters, in general (and this isn't an absolute, but rather a general statement based on ester chemistry), are less anabolic than longer esters. The short esters lead to variable spikes in blood hormone concentrations, making it harder to manage side-effects and create a 24/7 anabolic environment. The longer acting esters release the drug slowly from the depot site, making it easier to manage sides, and easier to keep stable hormone levels that ensure if there are androgen receptors nearby, there's drugs to hook up with them. Again, it's not 100% absolutes particular in homemade endocrinology like we do, but it's something to strongly consider.

complete bullshit. Short esters are superior to long esters in every way, minus injection frequency.

[bigmikecox]

500mgs of tren and 500mg of test changes your body! PERIOD!

1cc monday-friday

Only issue for me is the cough and night sweats

[DroppingPlates]

500mgs of tren and 500mg of test changes your body! PERIOD!

1cc monday-friday

Only issue for me is the cough, night sweats and dr dena nightmares

Fixed

[snx]

complete bullshit. Short esters are superior to long esters in every way, minus injection frequency.

Really? Care to cite a study to back you up? Because I will back up my claims with a reference if you wish to debate further. Oh, nevermind. Here's the study.

In one study, scientists compared an injection of Testosterone Propionate with Testosterone Enanthate, and they found that the injection of testosterone propionate resulted in nitrogen retention of 1.02g/day with a total measurable anabolic activity of 12 days, while the Enanthate version resulted in nitrogen retention of 1.76g/day and had a total measurable anabolic activity of 33 days.

Look it up if you want to satisfy yourself.

Reifenstein, et. al. Studies comparing the effects of certain testosterone esters in man.J Am Geriatr Soc. 1954 May;2(5):293-8.. PMID: 13162731

Here's two more nandrolone ester related topics:

Chaudry, M.A.Q.; James, K.C.; et al. J. Pharm. Pharmac., 1976, 28, 882-885
Chaudry, M.A.Q.; James, K.C. J. Med. Chem., 1974, 17, 157-161.

I'll also add some basic first year pharmacology to the mix. Endocrinologists know that injecting a hormone variant will produce a longer half-life in the body than having a patient take the same variant orally. We know this, because blood hormone concentrations don't have the same severe peaks and valleys. The blood concentrations stay more stable. We also know that if you add hydrophobic properties to an injected drug, you draw out the activity of the injected drug even more. Hydrophobic activity prevents hydrophillic esterase enzymes from interacting with the drug, thus delaying its release. The longer the release, the more even keeled the drug concentration, the more manageable the results/interactions, etc...in short, more good, less bad.

Now, you are correct in terms of two things bodybuilders hate most:

1. water rentention
2. estrogen production (assuming we're talking about drugs that can convert to an active estrogen)

When it comes down to it, longer esters produce higher levels of estrogens than do shorter esters. And it's the estrogen that bloats us up with water. But that water and bloat also has a benefit. Studies also show that some estrogen conversion is necessary to maximize the body's production of GH and IGF-1 in response to steroid use. So it's not black and white. Like all hormone use...lots of grey.

Journal of Andrology, Vol. 24, No. 5, September/October 2003 Copyright © American Society of Andrology Pharmacokinetics and Degree of Aromatization Rather Than Total Dose of Different Preparations Determine the Effects of Testosterone: A Nonhuman Primate Study in Macaca fascicularisGERHARD F. WEINBAUER*, CARL-JOACHIM PARTSCH, MICHAEL ZITZMANN, STEFAN SCHLATT AND EBERHARD NIESCHLAG

And that Andrology study also showed that short-acting esters had less of an affect on the testes and gonadal sperm production (mind you, this was very short term dosing. You use prop long enough and enough of it, and you'll shut stuff down well enough).

I'm not saying prop or acetate esters are bad, and I think pure test suspension definitely has a place and time. In some instances, they would be preferable to long esters, such as in athletes being tested. But long esters provide greater anabolic activity, and that's been proven. And I will hazard a guess that most guys use steroids for building muscle size first and foremost, and that anabolic activity is the chief concern regardless of half-lives. If you can get past the sie-effects of testicular shut-down and some bloating, you'll simply build more muscle with longer esters.

Come near a show, I wouldn't doubt shifting to shorter esters is better for reducing water retention. But if you're not getting show ready, a bit of bloat is good for the body.

If that's you in your avatar, you're better than I am. You obviously know what works for you, and that's worth more than any of my pharmacology rants...I won't argue that with you. You know what works for you, and that's the most important thing a bodybuilder can do. But you probably shouldn't make absolute statements about applying what works for you to everyone on the board. Plenty of kids read these boards and will believe anything a guy like you says because of how you look. So just be careful...

I'm only arguing on a pharmacology and metabolic response level. You made a pretty bold and absolute statement, and I'm trying to pass along a bit of knowledge on the boards. Too much bro science when it comes to drugs.

[Tre]

the problem with tren, you ll have to off at one time and then you can kiss the gains good bye and then the estrogen gonna flow freely afterwards.

Depending on your age and overall fitness level, it'll often take an equivalent amount of time (that you were on) to get your testicles functioning properly again. 

[snx]

the problem with tren, you ll have to off at one time and then you can kiss the gains good bye and then the estrogen gonna flow freely afterwards.


i dont like drugs that cant be taken year round with little risk, but im no competitor, so who cares.


i have never tried tren enanthate, how does tren enanthate compare to test enanthate when it comes to water retention?

and will tren e give limp penis?

with test, the penis is doing well, but i remember otherwise from other drugs, i could never tell which one affects libido and limpness, bc was always on many compounds at same time

Tren is a weak androgen in sex tissues (compared to reduced testosterone), so if you're only using tren, it can have an effect on penis. Just as nandrolone does (another 19-nor derivative). I won't say you'll be like a sock in the wind, but it can affect some guys. There's a lot of variability here. If you notice it happening, a bit of test added to the tren fixes it right up.

Tren, whether it's enanthate or acetate, doesn't really bring on the bloat. I know some guys claim test prop bloats less than test enanthate. But it's not the same with tren, because tren just doesn't trigger the water retention that test does. A lot of the water retention comes from increased estrogen, which tren doesn't create.

[OTHstrong]

tren e is weaker then tren a. With tren a there are a lot of immediate benefits such as good pumps and strength upon the day of injection, tren e is slightly different in this regards, but I have to disagree on the water retention slightly, not much but still a bit, I would not take tren e right til contest day that's for sure.

[bigmikecox]

Fixed

LMFAO

[snx]

i didnt mean that, but thanks man, i also dont think(from experience that it takes that much time to get back).

i get back within 2-3 months even after a year on, but its low readings and they dont improve, even over years.

what im saying i get the same test reading 2months after a cycle,or 1-2years after cycle, all the same.kinda low but constant.i think it never fully recovers, actually, but recovers ok-ish.

thats interesting, so that tren e dont cause water retention, why do ppl prefer tren a for cutting,then?

not being edgy, serious question

I read what Onetime wrote, and I can't dispute his knowledge. Dude knows his stuff.

I don't have a George Farah-like wealth of applying different drug protocols on pros to see how the body changes.

I've tried enough of different compounds, and I didn't notice a lick of difference between tren ace and tren enan. Some guys might though, but I have to wonder why.

Were they really just take pure tren ace, and then switched mg for mg over to tren enanthate and didn't change their diet, and bloated up a bit? It's possible, though not probable.

There's a big difference, though, between the bloat on test proprionate or suspension, and what you get off enanthate. Enanthate will bloat you up more, due to more estrogen production from long-acting esters vs short-acting esters. And you know bodybuilders...we're always "all or nothing". So one guy hears enanthate bloats you up more than propionate, and all of a sudden, all drugs with enanthate are bloaters and all propionate ester drugs are "cutters" or "hardeners". And that can make some sense if the drug converts to estrogens that are active.

But what about when we apply that to tren, which doesn't really make any appreciably strong estrogen compounds? How could it bloat more? I believe guys when they say it, but I can't explain why, and so usually, I get a little skeptical. Because bodybuilding is loaded with so much bro-science...it's often hard for all of us to tell what we truly know, versus what we believe we know.

I don't have any science to back me up here, but if I had to explain it, it might be a progesterone effect (i.e. longer esters leading to a more pronounced progesterone like effect versus shorter esters). I say "might", because frankly, I haven't found the evidence to prove it. Not to say it isn't out there, because it's been a while since I spent my days in the library reading journals...but I don't remember coming across it in my work.

Like anything before a show, if you feel switching to a tren ace ester from tren enanthate is going to help you win, then do it and put your mind at ease. It's not like you're going to lose any muscle doing so. 

[OTHstrong]

oh I 100% agree that tren e does not give anywhere near the bloat like any type of test. I mean test draws in water like a fountain and from my experience with tren e it will not make you retain any extra water or anything like that, in fact it might help you get rid of some bloat but from my experience with tren e I could not get rid of water, it was hard so basically does not cause extra water but rather stops you from getting rid of what you already have regardless of diuretic, whereas tren a can leave you bone dry with a couple of lasix.

[deceiver]

Serious question - why does enanthate make you bloat more than prop?

I can't understand that. Estrifed testosterone is not biologically active. There is this enzyme in blood which removes ester and releases testosterone particle. Then it's same testosterone, regardless of the esther. If you take 100mg prop e2d, which is 350mg of prop per week it's same mg weekly as 400mg e7d of enanthate (prop esther weight is lower thus you have to take more enan to get more pure test). But 400mg e7d of enan will give you exactly same amount of testosterone released in blood over week as propionate.

So why the fuck does enan give you more bloat?

[OTHstrong]

When it comes to drawing water out the longer the esters you are on the harder it is to successfully draw the water out, this is a fact, an indisputable fact. Why? personally I don`t say ``I don`t know``that often cause I have had my brain buried in this lifestyle and have almost learned it all but in this case, truly Ì don`t know`` but it is obvious to anyone with enough experience, it`s the way it works.

Say I am 240 and pop 20mg of lasix every 8 hours for 40 hours;
 Now keep in mind I have the same amount of water in my system in all the below scenarios.


If I was on test e only I would lose 7lb of water

if I was on test prop only I would lose 9-11lb

If I was on tren e I would lose 12lb

If I was on tren a only I would lose 14lb

Just a silly example, but that how it works. So with compounds that have longer esters for some reason they give the body a hard time when it comes to getting rid of water and with shorter ester the water is released more efficiently. Very glad you asked that question, damn good question, HTH

[bigmikecox]

I actually prefer tren e. The sides are less harsh and no cough.

[snx]

Serious question - why does enanthate make you bloat more than prop?

I can't understand that. Estrifed testosterone is not biologically active. There is this enzyme in blood which removes ester and releases testosterone particle. Then it's same testosterone, regardless of the esther. If you take 100mg prop e2d, which is 350mg of prop per week it's same mg weekly as 400mg e7d of enanthate (prop esther weight is lower thus you have to take more enan to get more pure test). But 400mg e7d of enan will give you exactly same amount of testosterone released in blood over week as propionate.

So why the fuck does enan give you more bloat?

It's about prolonged release.

Short acting esters are in and out of the body so fast and don't produce the appreciable increase in estrogens that long-acting esters do. Why they don't, is a good question.

Short-acting esters are in and out of the body rapidly. Rapidly enough so that the body can't respond and create more aromatase enzymes and up-regulate estrogen receptors (think back to your biology textbooks and how the body reacts to hormonal imbalances using feedback (positive and negative) loop mechanisms).

Long acting esters produce a more measured, prolonged drug concentration. So the body has plenty of time to adapt to the hormonal milieu. That means the body can up-regulate aromatase enzyme concentrations, and receptor concentrations. It does this, because the body can't stand an imbalance of test to estrogen. It thinks your nuts have gone haywire, and are making test like crazy. The body knows estrogen can slow that down, so it wants to make estrogen and will do it if given a chance. A long acting ester gives it the chance...a short-acting ester does not.

The estrogen is the culprit in the bloating, oftentimes. That's pretty much the long and short of it. If you don't like bloating, knock estrogen down or don't use aromatizing drugs (choose DHT derivatives, for example, which produce zero estrogens).