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Author Topic: McGuff's Big 5 training protocol  (Read 2259 times)
dj181
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« on: January 09, 2013, 04:03:42 AM »

here's the general gist of it...

Here are the fundamentals of the high intensity weight training model that McGuff and Little present. They differ from everything you've been told about weight training, I'll bet, so take a good look.

During your workout you should remember these points...


Form

    Move as slowly as possible without stuttering or pausing.
    Do not hold your breath (the valsalva maneuver).


Reps

    Measure your progress in terms of 'Time Under Load' (T.U.L.), not how many reps you perform. 'Time Under Load' simply refers to how long (in seconds) you're able to do exercise repetitions with the weight you're using.[1]
    Work with a weight at 80% of your 1 Rep Max.


Sets

    Each set should be no longer than 90 seconds, and…
    The last 30 seconds should be hell!
    Stay tense at the end of your set for 10 seconds when you can't move the bar anymore and are too fatigued to continue.


Sets, Number of Exercises, and Rests

    Do 1 set of each exercise, with 5 different exercises.
    Rest for 30 seconds to a minute between sets.


Frequency

    Since it takes 5 to 7 days to grow more muscle, most people should workout just once a week.
    No overtraining!

So, you'll only spend 12 - 15 minutes in the gym per week. If you spend more time than that working out, you're not working hard enough!

Just a tiny bit of high intensity weight training each week and you can get much stronger. It's shocking, and a real change from the conventional 3 days a week, an hour each day, 6 to 8 lifts, and 2 to 4 sets per lift workout!
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dj181
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2013, 04:07:54 AM »

IMO the super-slow reps are wrong and so is such infrequent training, twice a week would be optimal

also one should use free weights and dips and chins, machines aren't as effective

but other that that i think it's a pretty damn good training protocol

i never got shit out of iso moves, and compound moves pwn the fuck out of them, in my experience
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2013, 04:59:05 AM »

i'm a volume nut... i like 60-90 minute intense workouts 6 days per week plus moderate cardio 3-4 times per week (including one 10k run)

my thoughts about training is more is better... at the very least it keeps me lean
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2013, 05:21:09 AM »

i'm a volume nut... i like 60-90 minute intense workouts 6 days per week plus moderate cardio 3-4 times per week (including one 10k run)

my thoughts about training is more is better... at the very least it keeps me lean
your hardcore Wooo.. Grin and your legs are not small so you get results and thatīs whatīs important..non the less an intresting post from dj181...
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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2013, 05:26:53 AM »

your hardcore Wooo.. Grin and your legs are not small so you get results and thatīs whatīs important..non the less an intresting post from dj181...


 i agree... might be good for someone who is naturally lean... but i was not all that lean as a kid (i played o-line for ducksakes) so when i stumbled on the effects of volume training (probably after the 3rd time i watched pumping iron) i stuck with it
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dj181
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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2013, 06:03:10 AM »

i never got shit out of volume

for me, the only way to bigger muscles was to increase my training loads and low volume HIT increased my training loads the most

as of now my dip weight and squat weight has been increasing rather nicely, and low and behold... my legs, ass, pecs, delts, and tris have increased in size
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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2013, 06:54:12 AM »

Depends on Genes fast twitch vs slow twitch for me its mostly fast twitch which's means more power but lower endurance so HIT works best for me.
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2013, 07:10:07 AM »

i never got shit out of volume

for me, the only way to bigger muscles was to increase my training loads and low volume HIT increased my training loads the most

as of now my dip weight and squat weight has been increasing rather nicely, and low and behold... my legs, ass, pecs, delts, and tris have increased in size
so when you reach a sticking point adding weight, what do you do? do you use intensity techniques ?
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dj181
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2013, 09:45:55 AM »

so when you reach a sticking point adding weight, what do you do? do you use intensity techniques ?

rest more or eat more

right now, i'm eating more, and it's really helping me to increase my training poundages
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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2013, 10:27:15 AM »

rest more or eat more

right now, i'm eating more, and it's really helping me to increase my training poundages
it should of course,,heavier weight and some size should happen with it,,if you want to stay lean and i know dj thats your course then don't overdo it...
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2013, 10:53:04 AM »

Yeah......wasn't aware of the McGuff system, but could see a Art Jones influence in all this. Mentzer, to a lesser degree. Did a search for more information.  

Just my personal views, no big deal: Similar protocols, over the years, with this type effort. Rememberingng that muscle respond better to fast contraction, than slower contractions. Sort of like a sprinter (muscular size in the calves/thighs) as opposed to longer distance runners (leaner musclur size in calves/thighs). Seems also, with this type program, more attention to stamina  rather than a forecful muscle contraction at the end. Like a  semi-static hold during a full ROM. Static holds can be extremely important in any type training, where very heavy weights are concerned. I didn't come across any long range studies/personal experiences (3-6 monhts to a year) of results obtained by subjects. Sure they are recorded out there, somewhere.

(Art Jones had a well know bicep workout, where a negative chin (curl grip) was included with a BB curl. The negative chin was 60 seconds to it's conclusion. Excessive TUT and one cycle only (of course)).

Any system is worth a shot, so if dj181, or anone else, would like to test it out..that would be great. Maybe 3 exercise to get started with this program rather than 5, as a breaking in period. Seems it may be quite demanding on the CNS at first. Can't say if it would be a worthwhile training ststem, with regards to max size and strength...but than again, don't know until you try.

If reaching a sticking point. which most of us do, than your not getting enough rest time between workouts (you body's response is not catching up to the demands placed on it..usually based on the CNS). Either allow more time between workout days or take a week, or so, off from training.  The common cause of a sticking point is too many exercises, too many training days or going to the point of failure too many times every workout. Poor diet/quality of food, another factor. The mental factor, like the same old, same old workout, enter into here also. Good Luck.
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« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2013, 11:00:00 AM »

rest more or eat more

right now, i'm eating more, and it's really helping me to increase my training poundages
yes was just asking because eventually you reach a limit of how much you can lift and it does not matter if you use Volume or Hit. you canīt say bench more.
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« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2013, 11:10:05 AM »

it should of course,,heavier weight and some size should happen with it,,if you want to stay lean and i know dj thats your course then don't overdo it...
yes this is why i prefer to use other training methods to make my muscles work harder. I am the same i get stronger if i eat more but i do not want too much extra "Bulk". donīt know about dj but i put on fat too. this is why i wanted to know what he was planning when the bar is at his limit. Everyone reaches a ceiling weight even pros. However i train with a bit more volume and my training is diffrent.. but not as much as say Wooo Grin
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dj181
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« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2013, 11:26:58 AM »

it should of course,,heavier weight and some size should happen with it,,if you want to stay lean and i know dj thats your course then don't overdo it...

yep, you're right about not over doing it, and that's why i plan to keep an eye on my waistline and to check the ab skinfold on a regular basis, and once it goes up over 10 mm to cut back on the cals

Yeah......wasn't aware of the McGuff system, but could see a Art Jones influence in all this. Mentzer, to a lesser degree. Did a search for more information. 

Just my personal views, no big deal: Similar protocols, over the years, with this type effort. Rememberingng that muscle respond better to fast contraction, than slower contractions. Sort of like a sprinter (muscular size in the calves/thighs) as opposed to longer distance runners (leaner musclur size in calves/thighs). Seems also, with this type program, more attention to stamina  rather than a forecful muscle contraction at the end. Like a  semi-static hold during a full ROM. Static holds can be extremely important in any type training, where very heavy weights are concerned. I didn't come across any long range studies/personal experiences (3-6 monhts to a year) of results obtained by subjects. Sure they are recorded out there, somewhere.

(Art Jones had a well know bicep workout, where a negative chin (curl grip) was included with a BB curl. The negative chin was 60 seconds to it's conclusion. Excessive TUT and one cycle only (of course)).

Any system is worth a shot, so if dj181, or anone else, would like to test it out..that would be great. Maybe 3 exercise to get started with this program rather than 5, as a breaking in period. Seems it may be quite demanding on the CNS at first. Can't say if it would be a worthwhile training ststem, with regards to max size and strength...but than again, don't know until you try.

If reaching a sticking point. which most of us do, than your not getting enough rest time between workouts (you body's response is not catching up to the demands placed on it..usually based on the CNS). Either allow more time between workout days or take a week, or so, off from training.  The common cause of a sticking point is too many exercises, too many training days or going to the point of failure too many times every workout. Poor diet/quality of food, another factor. The mental factor, like the same old, same old workout, enter into here also. Good Luck.

thanks for the feedback man

and i'm just starting out with 3 exercises ie. dips, chins, and full squats

my problem is that i get too damn compulsive and i can't take days off, but i just gotta discipline myself to do it and not overdo it

what i've found is that if i go for a walk on my off days it helps to calm my ass down not to train nearly every goddamn day

right now i train 3 times a week, but eventually i'll have to go down to twice a week
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« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2013, 11:50:10 AM »

WHAT DONNY SAY'S AND DOES WITH SUPER OR GIANT SETS HAS ITS PLACE,I'VE DONE THEM MORE REGULARLY RECENTLY AND AMAZED THAT EVEN THO GOING EXERCISE TO EXERCISE SAY A FLAT DUMBELL BENCH AND FLAT FLYE STILL MOVING SAME OR CLOSE TO SAME WEIGHT AS DOING TRADITIONAL SET TO SET 30/60 SEC REST PERIOD AND TRYING TO PYRAMID WEIGHT.
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dj181
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« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2013, 02:59:42 PM »

WHAT DONNY SAY'S AND DOES WITH SUPER OR GIANT SETS HAS ITS PLACE,I'VE DONE THEM MORE REGULARLY RECENTLY AND AMAZED THAT EVEN THO GOING EXERCISE TO EXERCISE SAY A FLAT DUMBELL BENCH AND FLAT FLYE STILL MOVING SAME OR CLOSE TO SAME WEIGHT AS DOING TRADITIONAL SET TO SET 30/60 SEC REST PERIOD AND TRYING TO PYRAMID WEIGHT.

do you really think that method can build size and put on lean muscle tissue?
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« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2013, 04:59:15 PM »

do you really think that method can build size and put on lean muscle tissue?
what is a repetition? simplified its a positive,static,negative phase. you can train a muscle through all these ranges or partial at each stages. Even more... exhaust the muscle, if 50 push ups dont work do 100...NO .. do 2 exercises with no rest...do static holds...partial reps..of course they build muscle.
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« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2013, 06:48:06 PM »

supersets(also pre exhaust) ... trisets...giant sets build muscle.
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dj181
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« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2013, 03:19:32 AM »

what is a repetition? simplified its a positive,static,negative phase. you can train a muscle through all these ranges or partial at each stages. Even more... exhaust the muscle, if 50 push ups dont work do 100...NO .. do 2 exercises with no rest...do static holds...partial reps..of course they build muscle.


these methods are basically set extenders, and set extenders aren't effective for adding lean muscle tissue IMO

look at endurance runners vs. sprinters... who has more muscle? and who works shorter?

just recently i got down to 6-7% bodyfat and i was doing Metabolic training which is a set extender

it got me ripped but it added ZERO muscle to my frame, and in fact i even lost some muscle Cry Cry Cry
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« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2013, 03:29:26 AM »

and speaking on my last post, this brings up the concept of TUL ie. time under load

IMO it should last much more than 60 sec and it's probably even better to keep it under 30 sec
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« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2013, 03:32:40 AM »

they are methods of pushing the muscle to growth when you reach a sticking point. eating more and more is not the answer or taking days off... or a poor diet. proven methods of stimulating and shocking muscles into NEW growth. so when you reach your maximum bench..just eat more. OK.
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« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2013, 03:40:08 AM »

like a lot of these programmes they tell you to add weight every week..this becomes a means to an end. At some point you will not be able to push or squat more. you can't just keep doing more weight. This was my point. HIT or volume you reach a point where you need to re think your tactics. I am not trying to be negative but my original question has not really been answered.
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dj181
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« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2013, 03:46:17 AM »

like a lot of these programmes they tell you to add weight every week..this becomes a means to an end. At some point you will not be able to push or squat more. you can't just keep doing more weight. This was my point. HIT or volume you reach a point where you need to re think your tactics. I am not trying to be negative but my original question has not really been answered.

allright, but when you finally reach this point when you can't add more weight to the bar, then you stop growing

i've never increased the size of my muscles without increasing my training loads, and honestly i've never seen anyone do it either

mr. nobody could back me up here coz he trains people and his clients have only added muscle size when they have increased their training loads
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« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2013, 03:57:05 AM »

allright, but when you finally reach this point when you can't add more weight to the bar, then you stop growing

i've never increased the size of my muscles without increasing my training loads, and honestly i've never seen anyone do it either

mr. nobody could back me up here coz he trains people and his clients have only added muscle size when they have increased their training loads
I train people too. I have seen this so often with young guys. you seem like a guy who knows what he is doing and i am not a guy who writes long posts to impress people. do what you think is correct dj.
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dj181
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« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2013, 04:25:24 AM »

I train people too. I have seen this so often with young guys. you seem like a guy who knows what he is doing and i am not a guy who writes long posts to impress people. do what you think is correct dj.

yep

to each thier own

basically you've got to find out what works best for you, and then do it Cool
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