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Author Topic: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?  (Read 4161 times)
loco
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« on: February 11, 2013, 01:40:47 PM »

According to churches that consider ecumenical council decisions final, trinitarianism was infallibly defined at the First Ecumenical Council (the Council of Nicaea) in 325 A.D.

^^ Davis, SJ, Leo Donald (1990). The First Seven Ecumenical Councils (325-787): Their History and Theology (Theology and Life Series 21). Collegeville, MN: Michael Glazier/Liturgical Press. p. 68. ISBN 978-0-8146-5616-7.

Church and state in Europe suppressed nontrinitarian belief as heresy from the 4th to 18th century.

The early Christians had no idea what you guys are ranting on about. They worshiped God alone, they followed Jesus (pbuh). The trinity is a later invention and all the other doctrines you are  trying to propagate that justify to you the worship of a man.

The following narration recorded in the Qur'anic exegesis of Ibn Kathir is graded as authentic by orthodox Sunni scholars and provides a plausible explanation for the Qur'anic verse related to the substitution of Jesus:

    Ibn Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised Jesus to the Heavens, Jesus went to his disciples, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping with water (as if he had just had a bath) and he said, 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after you had believed in me.' He then asked, 'Who among you will volunteer for his appearance to be transformed into mine, and be killed in my place. Whoever volunteers for that, he will be with me (in Paradise).' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered, but Jesus asked him to sit down. Jesus asked again for a volunteer, and the same young man volunteered and Jesus asked him to sit down again. Then the young man volunteered a third time and Jesus said, 'You will be that man,' and the resemblance of Jesus was cast over that man while Jesus ascended to Heaven from a hole in the roof of the house. When the Jews came looking for Jesus, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of Jesus' followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, the Jacobites, said, 'Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to Heaven.' Another group, the Nestorians, said, 'The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to Heaven.' Another group, the Muslims, said, 'The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad."
    Al-Nasa'i, Al-Kubra, 6:489


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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2013, 01:45:37 PM »

Okay?

It doesn't show that at all. It just shows that a group of people disbelieved and were misguided and made false claims about Jesus being God.

Muslims are anybody even before Muhammad (pbuh) who submit their will to God. That's the definition of a Muslim. It's not a name label but rather a definition of a believer who submits himself to God truly.
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2013, 01:46:54 PM »

Okay?

It doesn't show that at all. It just shows that a group of people disbelieved and were misguided and made false claims about Jesus being God.

I thought you said that did not happen until centuries later.  The Muslim narration above disagrees with you.
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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2013, 01:49:01 PM »

It doesn't specify dates, it mentions that three groups developed there-from which is true.

In the US gov there were people who claimed sadam had wmd, there were poeple right away who said it was lies, there were people who were not sure and then there were people who brought further lies and did not stop lying until the very end.

That does not mean that therefore the US gov was 'right' as time passed by, it still was a lie regardless of time frame and as such there were three groups of people.

You're just chasing a wild card desperately.
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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2013, 01:58:13 PM »

It doesn't specify dates, it mentions that three groups developed there-from which is true.

In the US gov there were people who claimed sadam had wmd, there were poeple right away who said it was lies, there were people who were not sure and then there were people who brought further lies and did not stop lying until the very end.

That does not mean that therefore the US gov was 'right' as time passed by, it still was a lie regardless of time frame and as such there were three groups of people.

You're just chasing a wild card desperately.

First of all, I do not believe that narration at all myself.  Just pointing out Muslim contradictions.  It goes both ways, the narration does not say it happened centuries later, more like it happened soon after the alleged Jesus clone was crucified.  
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2013, 02:02:39 PM »

Not to sure what the issue is loco?

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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2013, 02:23:16 PM »

He's desperate to try to prove that Jesus is God so with his lack of understanding of what is even being said here he is saying Muslims actually believe that Jesus was/is God or something from the very beginning lol or that the followers of Jesus immediately thought he was God.

Just whatever, he's trying too hard.
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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2013, 02:34:06 PM »

Not to sure what the issue is loco?



No issue, just pointing out the Muslim contractions. One day Muslims say Christians did not believe Jesus is God until many centuries after Jesus walked the earth.  The next minute Muslims are saying that shortly after Jesus ascended to Heaven, many Christians believed that Jesus is Allah.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2013, 03:05:06 PM »

No issue, just pointing out the Muslim contractions. One day Muslims say Christians did not believe Jesus is God until many centuries after Jesus walked the earth.  The next minute Muslims are saying that shortly after Jesus ascended to Heaven, many Christians believed that Jesus is Allah.   Roll Eyes

So, where are the contradictions in the hadith of ibn abbass?

Its a hadith anyway, not a quranic verse
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« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2013, 03:11:24 PM »

He's thinking that the hadith is stating that immediately right after Jesus was taken to heaven POOF three groups emerged instantly: 1.  worshipped him as God 2. Called him son of God 3. Another which he is probably slightly confused about or does not understand said he was a servant of God. He thinks 'muslims' as in the muslims way after. When by definition that implies the true followers of Jesus those that submit to God just as Jesus over and over is said to have submitted his will in the bible itself TO God. "Not my will but your will". Definition of Muslim is one who submits to God.

Also what is stated at the end is indeed true but he omits that detail. The christian groups that prevailed and the teachings that prevailed exterminated the early christians that are called here muslims, the true followers of Jesus. This is fact. The early jewish 'sects' that were followers of Jesus and following the law, they were exterminated by the church and the beliefs that prevailed. The ones who were exterminated were dubbed heretics ultimately and done away with one by one. The trinitarianism ultimately prevailed.

Hence the final touching point onward Islam disappeared until the emergence of Muhammad (pbuh).

No where does it explicitly imply any date or anything it's the story generalized with the few true facts but he's desperate, but let him go on searching. We're here to clarify it for him inshAllah Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2013, 01:14:56 PM »

He's thinking that the hadith is stating that immediately right after Jesus was taken to heaven POOF three groups emerged instantly: 1.  worshipped him as God 2. Called him son of God

Not necessarily. It could have been days, weeks, months, maybe even years later.  But centuries?  I don't think so.  That narration does not say that and rather makes it look like it was shortly after the crucifixion. 
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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2013, 02:43:28 PM »

And lets say what you're saying is true. That it was years after. How does that make it right? If no one ever worshipped him in the first place, and then afterwards people thought he was god and started worshipping him. When Jesus peace be upon him only called towards servitute and worship of God. Reminded people of the law, practiced the law, scrutinized the pharisees jews for inventing traditions of their own making over following the law, etc...

It still in fact proves our point. That after Jesus left, people started thinking he's God because he was saved and did not die. Amongst many other examples.

This is in fact what happened people turned him into a demigod and starte dworshipping him. While the true followers of Jesus were indeed exterminated. This is fact. They are no more. They were Jews. Not Romans.
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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 03:14:25 PM »

He's desperate to try to prove that Jesus is God so with his lack of understanding of what is even being said here he is saying Muslims actually believe that Jesus was/is God or something from the very beginning lol or that the followers of Jesus immediately thought he was God.

Just whatever, he's trying too hard.

Of course Jesus is God (not God the Father but God the Son); the Bible explicitly says so MANY TIMES. As usual Ahmed you're just talking out of your ass so it's no wonder that your claims are absolute bullshit!

http://bibleprobe.com/jesus-is-God.htm
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« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2013, 03:55:13 PM »

Of course Jesus is God (not God the Father but God the Son); the Bible explicitly says so MANY TIMES. As usual Ahmed you're just talking out of your ass so it's no wonder that your claims are absolute bullshit!

http://bibleprobe.com/jesus-is-God.htm

Ok, thats your opinion, and thats fine.Just because soemone doesnt agree wwith you then there not satanists as you claim.

Humans can choose whatever they want.

But from a muslims perspective, we beleive in jesus and his miracles and beleive he is a prophet just like Mohamed, moses, abraham and every single prophet that came to mankind.

Jesus is no superior than any other prophets.Other prophets did miracles as well, they were not labelled son of god or God.
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« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2013, 04:08:27 PM »

Ok, thats your opinion, and thats fine.Just because soemone doesnt agree wwith you then there not satanists as you claim.

Humans can choose whatever they want.

But from a muslims perspective, we beleive in jesus and his miracles and beleive he is a prophet just like Mohamed, moses, abraham and every single prophet that came to mankind.

Jesus is no superior than any other prophets.Other prophets did miracles as well, they were not labelled son of god or God.

That's not just my opinion, that's the TRUTH. I didn't claim that those who disagreed with me were necessarily Satanists but in reality those that are not of God are of the devil! Sadly that bracket includes you and that cheeky terrorist Ahmed. Humans cannot choose whatever they want because God has commanded them to serve and obey Him (and Jesus His Son) only. I don't bother about the Muslim perspective because it's one that has already been proven to be Satanic, devilish, Antichrist. Jesus is not a prophet, He is the Son of God as well as being none other than God Himself. Of course Jesus is God (not God the Father but God the Son); the Bible explicitly says so MANY TIMES and since the Bible's the word of God the Bible is 100% true. The facts totally disagree with you, my misguided/deluded Muslim friend (check the link below this time). The road to Mecca's the road to Hell!

http://jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/false_religions.htm#islam

http://bibleprobe.com/jesus-is-God.htm
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2013, 04:11:14 PM »

Ok, thats your opinion, and thats fine.Just because soemone doesnt agree wwith you then there not satanists as you claim.

Humans can choose whatever they want.

But from a muslims perspective, we beleive in jesus and his miracles and beleive he is a prophet just like Mohamed, moses, abraham and every single prophet that came to mankind.

Jesus is no superior than any other prophets.Other prophets did miracles as well, they were not labelled son of god or God.

Then why do Muslims believe that it is Jesus Christ, not Mohamed or any other prophet, who will return to earth to defeat the Antichrist and then rule the world?
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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2013, 04:12:17 PM »

If it were the truth we'd know it too. Unfortunately it is your opinion. Because as a former christian I too read the bible and I did not come across teachings that explicitly state Jesus is God or came as a human or whatever. In fact if one christian or non christian were to pick up a bible and read it, they would find out that Jesus in fact differentiated himself from God, was not like God, was not God, served God, prayed to God, and was hundreds of times refered to as a prophet of God, messenger of God, servant of God, dependant on God.

Somehow thouh those who are not out for the truth ignore these verses and keep focusing on elusive verses to try to justify to others why they are worshipping Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them both).
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« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2013, 04:12:54 PM »

Then why do Muslims believe that it is Jesus Christ, not Mohamed or any other prophet, who will come back to defeat the Antichrist and then rule the world?

Because that is the role appointed to him by God. After all it will be the christ vs the false christ aka anti christ? Kind of common sense  by verbage alone isn't it?
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« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2013, 04:17:26 PM »

Jesus himself asked God's help and said. "I by my own myself can do nothing".. So I rather say the GOD that Jesus prayed to is with me than his slave.. Matthew 26:39 "Jesus fell on his face and prayed to HIS GOD"...Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death.

John 8:28 Jesus said "I by my own myself can do nothing"

John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, butonly the Father."

Matthew 26:39 "Jesus fell on his face and prayed to HIS GOD"

There's hundreds upon hundreds of these showcasing Jesus is not God and depended on God, prayed to God, cried to God, etc...
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« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2013, 04:41:18 PM »

Jesus himself asked God's help and said. "I by my own myself can do nothing".. So I rather say the GOD that Jesus prayed to is with me than his slave.. Matthew 26:39 "Jesus fell on his face and prayed to HIS GOD"...Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death.

John 8:28 Jesus said "I by my own myself can do nothing"

John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, butonly the Father."

Matthew 26:39 "Jesus fell on his face and prayed to HIS GOD"

There's hundreds upon hundreds of these showcasing Jesus is not God and depended on God, prayed to God, cried to God, etc...

Jesus predicted the coming of Mohamed, as the bible says John 16:7

"Nevertheless, i tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that i go away, for if i go not away, the comforter will not come unto you, but if i depart, i will send him unto you".

The comforter was Mohamed, who is the seal of the prophets.

And in John 14:26

"And i will pray to the father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"
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« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2013, 04:41:45 PM »

Then why do Muslims believe that it is Jesus Christ, not Mohamed or any other prophet, who will return to earth to defeat the Antichrist and then rule the world?

Who the fuck cares about what the (godless) Muslims believe? Their beliefs are all stuff and nonsense anywhere; the (pagan) Muslims believe in fairytales and lies.
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« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2013, 04:45:04 PM »

Colossians 3:8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.

I assure you, I know the bible better than you... as I of my own accord read it, it was not shoved down my throat.
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« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2013, 04:49:14 PM »

Who the fuck cares about what the (godless) Muslims believe? Their beliefs are all stuff and nonsense anywhere; the (pagan) Muslims believe in fairytales and lies.

Ms Johanna You shut up, you pubic munching troll. What can a sodomite  like you possibly know about life ? Just because you skimmed through porn mags  a few times doesn't mean you understand life . Jesus is very angry at you,
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« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2013, 05:05:29 PM »

Because that is the role appointed to him by God. After all it will be the christ vs the false christ aka anti christ? Kind of common sense  by verbage alone isn't it?

I don't think so.  The Mahdi will fight the Antichrist.  Jesus will return to help the Mahdi.  The Mahdi dies, but Jesus lives to rule the world.

So

Jesus > Mohammad
Jesus > Mahdi
Jesus > all prophets
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« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2013, 05:10:22 PM »

Who the fuck cares about what the (godless) Muslims believe? Their beliefs are all stuff and nonsense anywhere; the (pagan) Muslims believe in fairytales and lies.

I care.
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