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Author Topic: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?  (Read 3716 times)
a_ahmed
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« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2013, 05:14:16 PM »

I don't think so.  The Mahdi will fight the Antichrist.  Jesus will return to help the Mahdi.  The Mahdi dies, but Jesus lives to rule the world.

So

Jesus > Mohammad
Jesus > Mahdi
Jesus > all prophets

Wrong again.

Jesus will kill the anti-christ but the mahdi will be fighting the forces of the anti christ. The mahdi will be a muslim leader. When Jesus ascends into Syria he will be recognized by everyone and will be asked to lead the prayer but he will refuse and ask the mahdi to lead the prayer and he will pray behind him. That's about it. They will pray together.

Jesus is the one that will kill the anti-christ with as it's described his 'breath'. The anti christ will run away every time Jesus is around but ultimately will perish with Jesus killing him on what today happens to be an israeli air base if I recall (the location of the land where this battle will end)

We can see all that's happening today and God knows best. But the forces of the anti christ are none other than western governments which are godless and leading people away from Godliness and piety but instead towards corruption and this world's deceptions. The zionists in the region have their plots.

They await the messiah as well, who will be the anti-christ. Some of the jews will accept him, some will accept Jesus as we Muslims await. The anti christ will be followed by certain Jews, including Jews from Iran as it's described wearing blue shauls (sp?)

The anti christ will first make his mark in isfahan which is today a province of iran.
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« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2013, 05:18:54 PM »

Wrong again.

Jesus will kill the anti-christ but the mahdi will be fighting the forces of the anti christ. The mahdi will be a muslim leader. When Jesus ascends into Syria he will be recognized by everyone and will be asked to lead the prayer but he will refuse and ask the mahdi to lead the prayer and he will pray behind him. That's about it. They will pray together.

I did not say who would kill the antichrist, did I?

I said that the Mahdi will fight the Antichrist.  Jesus will return to help the Mahdi.  The Mahdi dies, but Jesus lives to rule the world.

So

Jesus > Mohammad
Jesus > Mahdi
Jesus > all prophets
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« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2013, 05:20:14 PM »

You have a funny way of responding when proven silly and wrong. We don't try to prove superiority of one man to another man chosen by God. They all have their roles as chosen by God

Muhammad was sent to all mankind as the final messenger.

Jesus was sent to the jews as the promised messiah.

Jesus will return to fight the anti-christ and establish the rule of God on earth who will live out his life, marry and pass away after that blessed period will end, worse things will come before the day of judgment until eventually only the worst of people are left on the earth and God will eventually smite them.

Mahdi is a simple human being, nothing more, not a prophet or messenger of God.
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« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2013, 05:23:37 PM »

You have a funny way of responding when proven silly and wrong.

Muhammad was sent to all mankind.

Jesus was sent to the jews.

Jesus will return to fight the anti-christ.

Mahdi is a simple human being, nothing more, not a prophet or messenger of God.

Then why is the Qur'an in Arabic?  Mohamed was sent to the Arabs.

Then why is Jesus the one who will return to rule the world and no Mohammad?

So

Jesus > Mohammad
Jesus > Mahdi
Jesus > all prophets
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« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2013, 05:27:09 PM »

You ask the same way the Jews asked. So many questions. That's how they behaved in their haughtiness. It's interesting to observe.

God does what He wills and he chose specific tasks for certain human beings. Jesus (pbuh) was sent to the jews

Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."

Muhammad (pbuh) was sent for all mankind.

He had a role, and each one of them has a role.

Why is the bible in hebrew, latin, koine greek, aramaic?

One thing we can say for sure. Unlike the bible, the qur'an is memorized by people who don't even speak the arabic language. The qur'an is memorized word for word literally without any exageration word for word by hundreds of millions of human beings even 3 year old children. This is one of the miracles of the qur'an.

People can touch that very qur'an and every single one of them is the same.

The same cannot be said about the bible. If people wanted to touch the aramaic scripts or koine greek scripts, they wouldn't even be able to and there are many variations in parchments.
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« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2013, 05:30:30 PM »

Man who memorized the entire qur'an word for word correctly without knowing the arabic language:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J95ArY8J2cM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J95ArY8J2cM</a>

Can you believe that he actually memorized Quran in 8-9 month. He doesn't speak nor understand Arabic, does he? But he actually managed to memorize it in such a short time..

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« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2013, 05:33:06 PM »

You ask the same way the Jews asked. So many questions. That's how they behaved in their haughtiness. It's interesting to observe.

God does what He wills and he chose specific tasks for certain human beings. Jesus (pbuh) was sent to the jews

That's all you have?   Undecided

Still doesn't answer my question:

Then why is it Jesus, and not Mohammad, the one who will return to rule the world?

So

Jesus > Mohammad
Jesus > Mahdi
Jesus > all prophets
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« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2013, 05:35:44 PM »

You're being childish just like John.

I feel sorry for you although I'm not surprised.

Jesus is the messiah one chosen for this task. That's it. He will live in this life, rule the world by God's law, marry, die. That's what God wants.
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« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2013, 05:41:40 PM »

You're being childish just like John.

I feel sorry for you although I'm not surprised.

Jesus is the messiah one chosen for this task. That's it. He will live in this life, rule the world by God's law, marry, die. That's what God wants.

If Jesus = Mohammad then why is it Jesus, and not Mohammad, the one who will return to rule the world?

So

Jesus > Mohammad
Jesus > Mahdi
Jesus > all prophets
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« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2013, 05:48:36 PM »

Jesus and Muhammad are not equal. Jesus was at the time sent to the children of israel. Muhammad was sent to deliver a message for all mankind. Jesus is also chosen to return to kill the false messiah.

Likewise Abraham had a purpose. Isac and Ishmael had a purpose. Jacob had a purpose. Moses had a purpose. Adam and his wife Eve had a purpose. All of them had their specific tasks. God's plan as it is whether you like these things or not. They are the way they are.

And now you're sounding like a clown copy pasting Jesus> Jesus> Jesus>. We don't deem one superior to another they are the best of mankind as chosen by God for their specific tasks.
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« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2013, 05:20:54 AM »

Jesus and Muhammad are not equal. Jesus was at the time sent to the children of israel. Muhammad was sent to deliver a message for all mankind. Jesus is also chosen to return to kill the false messiah.

Likewise Abraham had a purpose. Isac and Ishmael had a purpose. Jacob had a purpose. Moses had a purpose. Adam and his wife Eve had a purpose. All of them had their specific tasks. God's plan as it is whether you like these things or not. They are the way they are.

And now you're sounding like a clown copy pasting Jesus> Jesus> Jesus>. We don't deem one superior to another they are the best of mankind as chosen by God for their specific tasks.

a_ahmed,

Do you believe that the apostle John was a Muslim?  Do you believe that the book of Revelation in the Bible is the word of God?

In Revelation, God revealed to John the future and John wrote, hundreds of years before Mohamed was born, that Jesus would return, defeat the Antichrist and rule the world.
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« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2013, 08:15:49 AM »

Jesus predicted the coming of Mohamed, as the bible says John 16:7

"Nevertheless, i tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that i go away, for if i go not away, the comforter will not come unto you, but if i depart, i will send him unto you".

The comforter was Mohamed, who is the seal of the prophets.

And in John 14:26

"And i will pray to the father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"

stingray,

In the verse that you quoted above, John 16:7, Jesus said "i will send him unto you."  Are you saying that Jesus sent Mohamed?  I thought God sent Mohamed.  Surely you, a Muslim, is not saying that Jesus is God, are you?

Anyway, that is not Mohamed.  That is the Holy Spirit.  The verses that you quoted say so themselves:

John 16:7
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 16:13-14
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
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« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2013, 12:16:44 PM »

One thing we can say for sure. Unlike the bible, the qur'an is memorized by people who don't even speak the arabic language. The qur'an is memorized word for word literally without any exageration word for word by hundreds of millions of human beings even 3 year old children. This is one of the miracles of the qur'an.
My daughter turned 3 years old 2.5 weeks ago.  When was 2.5 years old she already had bible verses memorized.....as did some of her classmates.  My daughter also has Christian songs and prayers memorized.

People can touch that very qur'an and every single one of them is the same.

Quranic variations do exist....there are translations of the Quran that differ from culture to culture.  Most non-Muslims don't know this; in fact, most Muslims don't know this.  Those Muslims that do know it certainly don't talk about it.  It's more of a "well if it's discovered we'll address it then" kinda thing.

The same cannot be said about the bible. If people wanted to touch the aramaic scripts or koine greek scripts, they wouldn't even be able to and there are many variations in parchments.

An honest suggestion, read a book on textual criticism.  I'm just finishing one now...Bruce Metzger or Daniel Wallace are great resources to understand the field.  FYI ~ Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" is non-representative of the vast majority of the field...it's just a favorite for the sake of Christian opposition.....been fully refuted and debunked.  Same can be said for the infamous "Jesus Seminar"....debunked.  
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« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2013, 01:06:26 PM »

Man who memorized the entire qur'an word for word correctly without knowing the arabic language:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J95ArY8J2cM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J95ArY8J2cM</a>

Can you believe that he actually memorized Quran in 8-9 month. He doesn't speak nor understand Arabic, does he? But he actually managed to memorize it in such a short time..


There are people worldwide of varying colors and creeds, across all faiths that have eidetic memories.  Others have become exceptional at memorization via mnemonic devices.  I memorized some spanish and some german and don't speak either language; granted I lost it overtime, but had I kept at it I would've retained it.
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« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2013, 01:14:09 PM »

Your daughter memorized verses from the bible? I was talking about the entire qur'an word for word memorized by little children.

I have yet to meet a single priest who has the entire bible memorized word for word. One of my pastors was well versed in the bible but still did not have the entire bible memorized. Zakir Naik and Ahmed Deedat were also well versed in the bible and memorized verses but not the entire bible.. No one has ever memorized the entire bible word for word and if they had they would be a single person memorizing maybe one versions of a bible.

Muslims invented referencing and textual criticism. The reason the bible is versionized and the authorship unknown is from this very lack of this. We don't know for surety who said what or authored/wrote what from the very beginning only speculation. That's why certain Christians get angry when the books of NT are accused of being 'written by Paul' and they will claim no it is by actual apostles of Jesus/etc. and the debate rages on.

Regardless even if one person has memorized the bible, there's hundreds of MILLIONS who have memorized the qur'an word for word EVEN if they don't speak Arabic. It's incomparable.

And sorry MOS, but every single Qur'an in existence today in Arabic is word for word the same, it's a living spoken language, and everyone has access to it freely.
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« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2013, 12:42:00 PM »

Your daughter memorized verses from the bible? I was talking about the entire qur'an word for word memorized by little children.

I have yet to meet a single priest who has the entire bible memorized word for word. One of my pastors was well versed in the bible but still did not have the entire bible memorized. Zakir Naik and Ahmed Deedat were also well versed in the bible and memorized verses but not the entire bible.. No one has ever memorized the entire bible word for word and if they had they would be a single person memorizing maybe one versions of a bible.

Muslims invented referencing and textual criticism. The reason the bible is versionized and the authorship unknown is from this very lack of this. We don't know for surety who said what or authored/wrote what from the very beginning only speculation. That's why certain Christians get angry when the books of NT are accused of being 'written by Paul' and they will claim no it is by actual apostles of Jesus/etc. and the debate rages on.

Regardless even if one person has memorized the bible, there's hundreds of MILLIONS who have memorized the qur'an word for word EVEN if they don't speak Arabic. It's incomparable.

And sorry MOS, but every single Qur'an in existence today in Arabic is word for word the same, it's a living spoken language, and everyone has access to it freely.

No, I personally don't know any children that have memorized the bible.  I also don’t know any children under the age of 5 that speak four languages fluently or have graduated college under the age of 10, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. 

There are many folks that have memorized the bible and memorized multiple translations of the bible.  Countless Jews have memorized the OT.  Many Christians and Catholics have memorized the OT and NT.

Textual criticism is roughly  500-600 years older than Islam…the field was not developed by Muslims.  Now, I have no issue with the notion that Muslim men and women may have made contributions to the field (even significant contributions)….I can’t confirm those contributions, but I believe that to be completely reasonable.

I actually don't contest the idea that millions of Muslims over the centuries have memorized the Quran, but hundreds of millions today is grossly false.  That would mean that about 1 out of 3 Muslims on the planet has the Quran memorized…they don’t.  Personally I know more than three Muslims and none of them have the Quran memorized…at best they have a handful of verses memorized.

Well, actually my comment was broader than just the original Arabic translation of the Quran, but there are multiple Arabic translations as well.  Variance in Quranic translation has occurred in both the Arabic and across other cultures/languages. 

When you begin to get more granular in your study of the Christianity, Catholicism or Islam you tend to find that none are as “bulletproof” as initially thought.  As believers the more militant members of our faiths will do their level best to disguise this reality; still, I think that despite the variant translation of the bible or Quran that the core of the message in both is completely intact; almost 100% so.   Variations in the bible that have impact on theology is less than 1% (actually about .04%) and even then the “impacted theology” is secondary or tertiary material and does nothing to jeopardize the core.   I believe the same is true of the Quran. 
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« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2013, 01:32:24 PM »

Well I know it may not sound agreeable to you but it's pretty common and whether you like it or not yes hundreds of millions have it memorized, it's one thing thats common amongst muslims and one of the miracles of the nature of the qur'an. And I have yet to count on my fingers how many have memorized the bible. Even if you find such a person it will be a handful and you'll have to really look hard, I have yet to hear of one who has legitimately memorized a version of the bible. On the other hand finding people who memorized the qur'an word for word exactly with no errors, is pretty easy.

And the variations in the bible are pretty severe, such as insertions of verses that specifically try to imply trinity or deliberately are trinity messages and were not in the originals. That's pretty serious as it dictates opposing doctrines. Or invented stories, such as the story of the prostitute and not stoning her. It was not in the oldest scriptures but a later addition.
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« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2013, 02:13:14 PM »

Well I know it may not sound agreeable to you but it's pretty common and whether you like it or not yes hundreds of millions have it memorized, it's one thing thats common amongst muslims and one of the miracles of the nature of the qur'an. And I have yet to count on my fingers how many have memorized the bible. Even if you find such a person it will be a handful and you'll have to really look hard. On the other hand finding people who memorized the qur'an word for word exactly with no errors, is pretty easy.

And the variations in the bible are pretty severe, such as insertions of verses that specifically try to imply trinity or deliberately are trinity messages and were not in the originals. That's pretty serious as it dictates opposing doctrines.

I don't disgree with the notion that FAR more Muslims memorize the Quran than do Christians or Catholics memorize the bible, but hundreds of millions is false.  Again, I would agree that several million have over the centuries.  Since it's part of Islamic tradition I find it completely reasonable, but 1 out of 3 Muslims on planet Earth today?  Not a chance.

That's just it, the variations you refer to are not severe in anyway....that's a misnomer...plain and simple.  The most drastic variations make up less than 1% and even those variations don't compromise anything at all.  Again, that's why I suggested a book on textual criticism....it really helps to ground the variations in reality and shows that no part of the scripture is threatened. 
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« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2013, 03:08:29 PM »

Well like I said you may not like it, but it's fact. There's two billion muslims today it's very common every where in every of our communities to have hundreds of people memorizing the qur'an word for word including little children. Hundred million people is not much in contrast to a total of two billion Muslims world wide. Even if it's just 10 million it's still far surpasses what you can count on hands of people who I have yet to find that have memorized the entire bible word for word whatever version it may be.

Again give me even a handful of people I can count on my fingers who have memorized the bible you'll have to spend some time looking and trouble finding them. I have yet to even hear of one much less meet one.
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« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2013, 03:23:57 PM »

Our religion defines a culture where people are striving to be in remembrance of God from a young age

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIjsx8_dYhk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIjsx8_dYhk</a>

And when we pray we recite the qur'an. As such we are in constant reminder of God by praying every day and by reciting the qur'an as to what God reveals to us and teaches us.
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« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2013, 03:29:44 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvPL4pc9afE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvPL4pc9afE</a>

And it's not a 'few verses' that are memorized, but when i say word for word, this is entire chapters, to a complete completion of the entire qur'an WITH proper pronunciation. As reciting the qur'an there is a proper way to do it. Then there's people who memorize volumes of tafsir (commentary) with full understanding, there's levels to it, it's impressive.


The pope did not memorize the bible and neither have any high position christian leaders. It speaks volumes.

Regardless of how many people you believe memorize the qur'an, lets say JUST ten million out of two billion. How many can you find me that have memorized say the catholic bible or the protestant bible or the ethiopian bible just as an example.

All this stems from 'oh the quran was revealed in arabic' and so if it was, it is an eloquent and expressive language. God knows best and chooses the best out of His infinite wisdom. Far more so than any other language AND it is to this day a living spoken language. The same cannot be said about koine-greek, latin, aramaic and heck even hebrew. Hebrew as it's spoken today is spoken how and by how many million people? Aramaic same thing I actually had the opportunity to know an assyrian girl in college she spoke Aramaic i was so utterly impressed as it's borderline an extinct language!

So again, the two are not comparable not even close.
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« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2013, 07:09:39 AM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvPL4pc9afE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvPL4pc9afE</a>

And it's not a 'few verses' that are memorized, but when i say word for word, this is entire chapters, to a complete completion of the entire qur'an WITH proper pronunciation. As reciting the qur'an there is a proper way to do it. Then there's people who memorize volumes of tafsir (commentary) with full understanding, there's levels to it, it's impressive.


The pope did not memorize the bible and neither have any high position christian leaders. It speaks volumes.

Regardless of how many people you believe memorize the qur'an, lets say JUST ten million out of two billion. How many can you find me that have memorized say the catholic bible or the protestant bible or the ethiopian bible just as an example.

All this stems from 'oh the quran was revealed in arabic' and so if it was, it is an eloquent and expressive language. God knows best and chooses the best out of His infinite wisdom. Far more so than any other language AND it is to this day a living spoken language. The same cannot be said about koine-greek, latin, aramaic and heck even hebrew. Hebrew as it's spoken today is spoken how and by how many million people? Aramaic same thing I actually had the opportunity to know an assyrian girl in college she spoke Aramaic i was so utterly impressed as it's borderline an extinct language!

So again, the two are not comparable not even close.

Our religion defines a culture where people are striving to be in remembrance of God from a young age

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIjsx8_dYhk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIjsx8_dYhk</a>

And when we pray we recite the qur'an. As such we are in constant reminder of God by praying every day and by reciting the qur'an as to what God reveals to us and teaches us.

Well like I said you may not like it, but it's fact. There's two billion muslims today it's very common every where in every of our communities to have hundreds of people memorizing the qur'an word for word including little children. Hundred million people is not much in contrast to a total of two billion Muslims world wide. Even if it's just 10 million it's still far surpasses what you can count on hands of people who I have yet to find that have memorized the entire bible word for word whatever version it may be.

Again give me even a handful of people I can count on my fingers who have memorized the bible you'll have to spend some time looking and trouble finding them. I have yet to even hear of one much less meet one.

Once again, I have no issue with several million Muslims over the centuries memorizing the Quran.  Recitation and memorization of the Quran is part of the Islamic belief system.   Much like the worship of Mary in Catholicism or the sacred treatment of cows in Hinduism...it is only a part of that belief system.  It makes perfect sense that many more Muslims will memorize the Quran than Christians will memorize the bible.....Christianity doesn't practice a regimen of scripture memorization or virgin Mary worship or sacred cow treatment.  For a comparitive count to be meaninful it must be a standard part of both groups being compared.  I have no doubt that Texas bbq'rs have eaten far more beef than California vegans.

Question:  Does the Quran state that Muslims should memorize its verses?  If so would you reference the verses for me so I can understand Allah's memorization requirement?

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« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2013, 07:25:52 AM »

Who the fuck cares about what the (godless) Muslims believe? Their beliefs are all stuff and nonsense anywhere; the (pagan) Muslims believe in fairytales and lies.
You can call muslims a lot of things but "pagan" probably is one term that doesn't at all fit.
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« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2013, 12:21:30 PM »

a_ahmed,

Do you believe that the apostle John was a Muslim?  Do you believe that the book of Revelation in the Bible is the word of God?

In Revelation, God revealed to John the future and John wrote, hundreds of years before Mohamed was born, that Jesus would return, defeat the Antichrist and rule the world.

BUMP.


a_ahmed?  Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Bueller?  Bueller?
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« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2013, 01:36:54 PM »

Sorry you lost me when you started talking non-sense. You persist in quoting verses the same ones over and over again and ignoring the ones I present which crumble your arguments.

However the apostles of Jesus (pbuh) were Muslims yes, we believe in them. It's similar to how Muhammad (pbuh) had companions, Jesus had his companions. However what you have God only knows what's true and what's not true as it's riddled with contradictions and insertions by scribes. Plus we don't even know who really authored the books of the NT besides Paul.

I know what you're trying to say if we believe that 'apostle John' is a Muslim, then how are we denying the verses you are posting. Yeah okay  Roll Eyes
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