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Author Topic: Bible Verses Clearly Denying Jesus Being God  (Read 2153 times)
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« on: February 18, 2013, 10:28:56 PM »

Just posting three of the many such examples, as I've always felt that pasting a large # of verses results in viewers not reading or responding adequately.

1)  John 20:17 "...Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my father and your father, to my God and your God."

Jesus indicating that he has a God, and that his relationship to God is similar to the relationship of common people with God.  God does not have a God, and would not tell others that his relationship with God is similar to theirs.

2)  Luke 18:19  "'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered.  'No one is good--except God alone."

Jesus says a) he is not good, and b) God alone is good.  If Jesus were God he would not differentiate himself from God by stating that he is not good and only God alone is.

3)  John 17:3  "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

This verse clearly shows two separate entities - a)  the "only true God" AND b) Jesus Christ (who was sent by the only true God.)  Only the one who sent Jesus is the true God, meaning Jesus himself can't be God. 
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2013, 06:42:48 AM »

These verses do not deny Jesus being God the Son.  And there are plenty of Bible verses that confirm Jesus is God the Son.

bigbobs, why is it that Muslims use the Bible to try to affirm their Muslim faith?  Don't you Muslims already have your Qur'an?  Is the Qur'an not good enough for you?
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2013, 08:17:44 AM »

All good comments, but require a bit of context.

Here are the full verses you reference with additional verses for the sake of context:

John 20:17
17 “Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”


Jesus Christ is the incarnate Son of God.  He is the second person of the Trinity that has been eternally present with the Father and Spirit.  Jesus' hypostatic nature is divided into his divine essence and his incarnate, human essence.  He is fully God and was fully man at the same time.  God self-limted the Sonship essence of himself into that of a man on earth so that he may become the ultimate, perfect sacrifice for us...God can't die, but a man can.  As a man he hungered, thirsted, worked, sweated, was tempted, worshipped the Father (from whom he drew divine strength), his knowledge was limited (as a man he didn’t know the hour of his return, didn’t know the name of demons possessing others, etc…), his grew in knowledge as a man, he prayed to the Father for strength and guidance, etc....he was man (a perfect, sinless man), but also God.    Why would God pray to himself?  He did so as an example for us and because he was temporarily a man with all physical limitations therein.  He drew strength from his divine Fatherly essence.  Christ wasn’t play-acting either while on earth as a man, he was God that became man and as such he functioned as a man both for his own survival and as an example for all of us.   When Christ indicates that he is returning to the Father he’s doing exactly that….returning to the Father from which he came and returning to his divine, Sonship essence of God.  God is one and there is only one God and his nature is divided into three in Father, Son and Spirit.  All persons/essences serve different functions, but difference in purpose  or position (ex: the Father remained in heaven while the Son was a man on earth) does not mean inequality of divinity…that’s a human misconception.  Why wasn’t Christ returning to the Holy Spirit?  Christ was birthed as a man by the Holy Spirit and was indwelled by the Holy Spirit.   As a man the spirit was in him as it is in other followers of Christ.

You can also refer to John chapter 14 in which Christ outlines that if you have seen him, you save seen the Father.  Christ indicates that the Father is in him and that he is in the Father.  Christ also indicates that he will be returning to the Father who sent him that is greater than him.  "Ah! Ah! You see, Jesus isn't God!"  No, no, no...God limited the Sonship essense of himself through the power of his Fatherly essence.....God can do that and did do that.  When the Son (Christ) says he is returning to the Father who is greater than I he isn't lying, but that reference to greatness is that of location....the Father is in heaven while Son is on Earth.  The Father was also temporarily greater in power and scope than the Son while the Son was a man; regardless, that self-limitation does not deny divinity...again, differnence in purpose does not mean difference in divine equality.  Chapter 14 then goes on to describe the Holy Spirt coming to replace Christ once his ascends back to the Father and his full divinity as the Son.....Father, Son and Spirit....coequal, coeternal persons/essences of God who is one.

Luke 18:18-21
The Rich Man
18 Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?”
19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. 20 But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.”
21 The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.”


The recorded answer of Jesus is a bit puzzling if only verse 19 is considered, but with the added context of verse 18 the rich man approached Christ asking how to attain eternal life, but referred to him as good teacher.  Christ doesn’t answer his question immediately concerning eternal life, but first acknowledges the rich man’s description of Christ as “good teacher”.   Christ focuses on the adjective “good” and is essentially prefacing his answer by saying that only God is truly good and suggesting to the man that his description of being merely a “good teacher” is insufficient as true goodness is only found in God himself.  It was a very sly affirmation of Jesus’ divinity that also forced the man to stop and consider what he was asking of Christ.

John 17
The Prayer of Jesus
17 After saying all these things, Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you. 2 For you have given him authority over everyone. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. 3 And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth. 4 I brought glory to you here on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.


You can again refer to my answer related to John 20:17.

See, the whole of scripture should be considered...it blends perfectly and cohesively.  

God Bless!
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« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2013, 08:41:12 AM »

These verses do not deny Jesus being God the Son.  And there are plenty of Bible verses that confirm Jesus is God the Son.

bigbobs, why is it that Muslims use the Bible to try to affirm their Muslim faith?  Don't you Muslims already have your Qur'an?  Is the Qur'an not good enough for you?

It's the same reason I've said for months.   Since Christianity is the predecessor of Islam (in a sense LOL) and the Christian faith and Islamic religion are diametrically opposed based on the foundations of Christianity being altered in order to define the Islamic theology.  Islam must attack and refute Christianity and attempt to deny the divinity of Christ, Christ's resurrection, the trinity, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Paul's ministry, etc....if Jesus Christ is God then Islam is flat out incorrect.  Islam cannot stand on its own while Christianity continues to thrive.   Christianity does not need to attack Islam since Christianity stands firmly established on the solid rock of the apostles and prophets with Christ as cornerstone.  We have Christ's life and death and every demonstration of his divinity therein for affirmation.  Not only that, but we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which affirms who God is in every believer today and forever.  If any of these things are true that means that Muhammad was either lying, deceived or both.  

Although, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know LOL!
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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2013, 09:35:24 AM »

It's the same reason I've said for months.   Since Christianity is the predecessor of Islam (in a sense LOL) and the Christian faith and Islamic religion are diametrically opposed based on the foundations of Christianity being altered in order to define the Islamic theology.  Islam must attack and refute Christianity and attempt to deny the divinity of Christ, Christ's resurrection, the trinity, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Paul's ministry, etc....if Jesus Christ is God then Islam is flat out incorrect.  Islam cannot stand on its own while Christianity continues to thrive.   Christianity does not need to attack Islam since Christianity stands firmly established on the solid rock of the apostles and prophets with Christ as cornerstone.  We have Christ's life and death and every demonstration of his divinity therein for affirmation.  Not only that, but we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which affirms who God is in every believer today and forever.  If any of these things are true that means that Muhammad was either lying, deceived or both.  

Although, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know LOL!

1 John 2:22-23
22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2013, 10:00:17 AM »

These verses do not deny Jesus being God the Son.

What is this "God the Son" phrase you're using?  I didn't mention this phrase anywhere in my post, nor does this phrase "God the Son" even appear in the Bible.  This thread is about verses that show that Jesus is not God (not verses that show Jesus is not "God the son" some non-scriptural phrase someone made up).


  And there are plenty of Bible verses that confirm Jesus is God the Son..

There are no unambigious unequivocal statements confirming Jesus is God.  Hypothetically even if there were, or if I was to have the same interpretation of the ambigious verses as you do and felt that there are verses which teach that Jesus is God, I would conclude that they simply represent contradictions in the Bible due to the opposing verses I posted in this thread.  And when a book has contradictions another book must be sought as a book of God can not have contradictions.
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« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2013, 10:21:49 AM »

All good comments, but require a bit of context.

Here are the full verses you reference with additional verses for the sake of context:

John 20:17
17 “Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”


Jesus Christ is the incarnate Son of God.  He is the second person of the Trinity that has been eternally present with the Father and Spirit.  Jesus' hypostatic nature is divided into his divine essence and his incarnate, human essence.  He is fully God and was fully man at the same time.  God self-limted the Sonship essence of himself into that of a man on earth so that he may become the ultimate, perfect sacrifice for us...God can't die, but a man can.  As a man he hungered, thirsted, worked, sweated, was tempted, worshipped the Father (from whom he drew divine strength), his knowledge was limited (as a man he didn’t know the hour of his return, didn’t know the name of demons possessing others, etc…), his grew in knowledge as a man, he prayed to the Father for strength and guidance, etc....he was man (a perfect, sinless man), but also God.    Why would God pray to himself?  He did so as an example for us and because he was temporarily a man with all physical limitations therein.  He drew strength from his divine Fatherly essence.  Christ wasn’t play-acting either while on earth as a man, he was God that became man and as such he functioned as a man both for his own survival and as an example for all of us.   When Christ indicates that he is returning to the Father he’s doing exactly that….returning to the Father from which he came and returning to his divine, Sonship essence of God.  God is one and there is only one God and his nature is divided into three in Father, Son and Spirit.  All persons/essences serve different functions, but difference in purpose  or position (ex: the Father remained in heaven while the Son was a man on earth) does not mean inequality of divinity…that’s a human misconception.  Why wasn’t Christ returning to the Holy Spirit?  Christ was birthed as a man by the Holy Spirit and was indwelled by the Holy Spirit.   As a man the spirit was in him as it is in other followers of Christ.

You can also refer to John chapter 14 in which Christ outlines that if you have seen him, you save seen the Father.  Christ indicates that the Father is in him and that he is in the Father.  Christ also indicates that he will be returning to the Father who sent him that is greater than him.  "Ah! Ah! You see, Jesus isn't God!"  No, no, no...God limited the Sonship essense of himself through the power of his Fatherly essence.....God can do that and did do that.  When the Son (Christ) says he is returning to the Father who is greater than I he isn't lying, but that reference to greatness is that of location....the Father is in heaven while Son is on Earth.  The Father was also temporarily greater in power and scope than the Son while the Son was a man; regardless, that self-limitation does not deny divinity...again, differnence in purpose does not mean difference in divine equality.  Chapter 14 then goes on to describe the Holy Spirt coming to replace Christ once his ascends back to the Father and his full divinity as the Son.....Father, Son and Spirit....coequal, coeternal persons/essences of God who is one.

Luke 18:18-21
The Rich Man
18 Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?”
19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. 20 But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.”
21 The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.”


The recorded answer of Jesus is a bit puzzling if only verse 19 is considered, but with the added context of verse 18 the rich man approached Christ asking how to attain eternal life, but referred to him as good teacher.  Christ doesn’t answer his question immediately concerning eternal life, but first acknowledges the rich man’s description of Christ as “good teacher”.   Christ focuses on the adjective “good” and is essentially prefacing his answer by saying that only God is truly good and suggesting to the man that his description of being merely a “good teacher” is insufficient as true goodness is only found in God himself.  It was a very sly affirmation of Jesus’ divinity that also forced the man to stop and consider what he was asking of Christ.

John 17
The Prayer of Jesus
17 After saying all these things, Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you. 2 For you have given him authority over everyone. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. 3 And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth. 4 I brought glory to you here on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.


You can again refer to my answer related to John 20:17.

See, the whole of scripture should be considered...it blends perfectly and cohesively.  
God Bless!


But none of your explanations above including that in John 20:17 are scriptural.  Yes I consider the whole scripture and that's why there are two potential conclusions:

a)  No verse implies that Jesus is God (if I follow my interpretations of the verses you posted)
b)  Some verses imply Jesus is God while others deny it, meaning the book is contradictory and must be dismissed.

These conclusions do not change due to Non-scriptural doctrines and your own personal conception of God being three persons which mysteriously interact with each other and are superior and inferior to each other.  You're trying to mend contradictory teachings into a doctrine which does not make any sense, rather than admitting the contradiction.
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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2013, 10:25:22 AM »

1 John 2:22-23
22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

But we are all "sons of God" loco, refer to my above quote "my father and your father."
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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2013, 10:26:20 AM »

But none of your explanations above including that in John 20:17 are scriptural.  Yes I consider the whole scripture and that's why there are two potential conclusions:

a)  No verse implies that Jesus is God (if I follow my interpretations of the verses you posted)
b)  Some verses imply Jesus is God while others deny it, meaning the book is contradictory and must be dismissed.

These conclusions do not change due to Non-scriptural doctrines and your own personal conception of God being three persons which mysteriously interact with each other and are superior and inferior to each other.  You're trying to mend contradictory teachings into a doctrine which does not make any sense, rather than admitting the contradiction.

Add context to the verses and that's deemed "just our interpretation". Post verses alone and it's not sufficient because their isn't any additional context.  Post the comments of Christians theologians it's ignored or scoffed at.  Simply leave your own comments with no verses and we're making up words because there are no verses included.  If you post a single verse or two their isn't enough context so the entire chapter is required.  If you post the entire chapter it's deemed too much to read and is ignored.  Cite a book for reference from an accredited theologian and that gets, "so I need a book to answer my single question?"  Point is, there isn't a sufficient answer for you or ahmed...no amount of explanation, context, scripture, experience, external reference, online reference, etc....will suffice.  You'll object to this statement as well saying, "it isn't true that nothing will suffice," which validates that nothing is sufficient LOL.  I've written small essays on this board answering a myriad of questions and objections (ahmed's primarily)....nothing is sufficient.  Keep in mind that the claim of insufficiency doesn't invalidate a word I've written....this statement will probably get the ole "that goes both ways though".  Difference is, I don't attack Islam (and disagreeing is different than attacking).  I don't need Islam discredited to validate Christianity.

It's really not my problem anymore.

I basically ignore ahmed for the most part now unless he completely misrepresents Christians...then I respond.

Respectfully, I agree with nothing you just posted.  That said, it's clear nothing I've said past or present is sufficient for you (but I'm simply not changin).  You've made it clear in your first reply to loco and then again in your reply to me that you'd deny even hypothetical situations that meet your standards.  

Man, it's just not my problem.  

I post for the sake of others now.  

God bless ole loco though....he presses on!
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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2013, 10:33:20 AM »

What is this "God the Son" phrase you're using?  I didn't mention this phrase anywhere in my post, nor does this phrase "God the Son" even appear in the Bible.  This thread is about verses that show that Jesus is not God (not verses that show Jesus is not "God the son" some non-scriptural phrase someone made up).

But we are all "sons of God" loco, refer to my above quote "my father and your father."

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2013, 10:36:42 AM »

There are no unambigious unequivocal statements confirming Jesus is God.

bigbobs, 

To be clear, please give me an example of what a "unambiguous unequivocal statements confirming Jesus is God" would be.  I know you say there isn't one, so please make one up as an example.  What would satisfy you?
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2013, 11:16:35 AM »

In short there is nothing you will accept....you've made that clear in your first reply to loco and then again in your reply to me.  Man, it's just not my problem.

I post for the sake of others now.

So my desire for clear unambigious scripture is a "problem"  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2013, 11:17:33 AM »

bigbobs, 

To be clear, please give me an example of what a "unambiguous unequivocal statements confirming Jesus is God" would be.  I know you say there isn't one, so please make one up as an example.  What would satisfy you?

Jesus saying "I am God, worship me" is an example not "the Father and I are one," "Before Abraham was, I am," etc etc etc.  Surely something so significant at Jesus being divine would have been clearly and unambigiously stated.  Unambigiously by all readers' standards, not only readers who have been taught the Trinity growing up.
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« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2013, 11:19:20 AM »

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

So there's another contradiction - John 3:16 says Jesus is the "only" son whereas countless other verses refer to everyone who is righteous as son.

Also did you ever consider what  it means to be a literal son of God?  Does God have DNA?  When dogs have sons they are puppies, when humans have sons they are baby humans, and if God can have a son it would be ....human also  Huh

I just noticed that some translations use the phrase "one unique son" not "one and only son," I will generously side with this translation to avoid the contradiction in the translation you used.
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« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2013, 12:06:43 PM »

So we are all sons (and daughters) of God, correct?  And Jesus is no different, correct?  That said, from a John 3:16 perspective, we've covered "For God so loved the word that he gave his one and only Son,".....now the "one and only" or "unique" phrase appears to distinguish Jesus from everyone, but I guess I'm just wrong and that was just filler.  That said, that's where the discussion of the verse typically ends...at the comma.  Although, the verse doesn't end there.  We still have "that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." So according to your logic, we're all sons of God (exactly like Jesus) and since MOS is a son of God and loco is a son of God, if loco believes in MOS and MOS believes in loco we will give each other eternal life, correct?  Afterall, we're all sons of God!  In essence, the whole of the verse comes down to "son of God" and because we're all "sons of God" there is no difference or distinction between me, loco, you and Jesus....just a bunch sons of God that are "one and only" and unique giving each other eternal life.  

Is that correct?
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« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2013, 12:13:10 PM »

So we are all sons (and daughters) of God, correct?  And Jesus is no different, correct?  That said, from a John 3:16 perspective, we've covered "For God so loved the word that he gave his one and only Son,".....now the "one and only" or "unique" phrase appears to distinguish Jesus from everyone, but I guess I'm just wrong and that was just filler.  That said, that's where the discussion of the verse typically ends...at the comma.  Although, the verse doesn't end there.  We still have "that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." So according to your logic, we're all sons of God (exactly like Jesus) and since MOS is a son of God and loco is a son of God, if loco believes in MOS and MOS believes in loco we will give each other eternal life, correct?  Afterall, we're all sons of God!  In essence, the whole of the verse comes down to "son of God" and because we're all "sons of God" there is no difference or distinction between me, loco, you and Jesus....just a bunch sons of God that are "one and only" and unique giving each other eternal life.  

Is that correct?

Of course not.  We are all "sons" (not literal), including Jesus (not literal also).  Jesus is indeed unique from us - he's a prophet of God, was born with a mother and no father, healed people, and will return to this earth one day.  These traits make him unique from us, but does not in itself mean that we are metaphorical sons of God while he is a literal son of God.  Uniqueness must equate to divinity?  

And definitely whoever believes in Jesus' prophethood will follow his teachings and have eternal life.  No conflict in our beliefs there.
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« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2013, 12:16:15 PM »

Of course not.  We are all "sons" (not literal), including Jesus (not literal also).  Jesus is indeed unique from us - he's a prophet of God, was born with a mother and no father, healed people, and will return to this earth one day.  These traits make him unique from us, but does not in itself mean that we are metaphorical sons of God while he is a literal son of God.  Uniqueness must equate to divinity?  

And definitely whoever believes in Jesus' prophethood will follow his teachings and have eternal life.  No conflict in our beliefs there.

So Muslims will attain eternal life in Allah's paradise by having faith in the prophet Jesus?  That's interesting...expand on that more if you don't mind.
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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2013, 12:24:15 PM »

So Muslims will attain eternal life in Allah's paradise by having faith in the prophet Jesus?  That's interesting...expand on that more if you don't mind.

We can't say who exactly will have eternal paradise, that's up to God to judge, but at any time I find it perfectly reasonable for God to tell the people they will have eternal paradise if they follow the prophet of their time.
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« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2013, 12:47:53 PM »

We can't say who exactly will have eternal paradise, that's up to God to judge, but at any time I find it perfectly reasonable for God to tell the people they will have eternal paradise if they follow the prophet of their time.

I'm confused, you just said "And definitely whoever believes in Jesus' prophethood will follow his teachings and have eternal life."  Is that correct or incorrect?  Should a person believe in Jesus' prophethood, follow the prophet of their time or just wait for God's judgement since it's really up to God?

 

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« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2013, 01:26:43 PM »

I'm confused, you just said "And definitely whoever believes in Jesus' prophethood will follow his teachings and have eternal life."  Is that correct or incorrect?  Should a person believe in Jesus' prophethood, follow the prophet of their time or just wait for God's judgement since it's really up to God?

 



I think I know what you're trying to get at now.  It's impossible for anyone to know for certainty where their destiny lies.  This is in line with being completely dependant on God, our destiny lies soley in his hands, and belieiving that you have gauranteed eternal paradise is in conflict with believing your destiny in solely in God's hands.  You can say "I have a guarantee that I will go to heaven" all you want but that does not make it true.  

To answer your question one should follow the prophet of their time and prior, and in doing so there woudl be no conflict since all prophets taught the same thing.  There is no evidence of Jesus teaching that he was God, for example.  
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« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2013, 02:26:42 PM »

You know like I told MOS and Loco in other threads, they focus on the same elusive verses over and over again. They struggle to write tens of pages elaborating these elusive verses that supposedly claim Jesus is 'god'. However there are literally hundreds of verses which ascertain Jesus NOT being God and are very clear.

They tend not to want to mention these and just keep refocusing (just as loco does with his copy pasting over and over again) on those same verses.

For instance Mathew and Luke mention the story of Jesus being in the desert, fasting, tempted by the devil, etc... I posted this in another thread:

Quote
From LUKE:

4 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 where for forty days he was tempted[a] by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.

God hungry? Had nothing? Tempted by devil for 40 days? Wow...

3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’”

5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendour; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”

So if Jesus is 'god', he needs the devil to give him authority Wow...?

8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’[c]”

9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here. 10 For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you
    to guard you carefully;
11 they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[d]”
12 Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[e]”

13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.






The devil is OFFERING THE WHOLE WORLD to Jesus if he worships the devil?

Not only are the verses about the 'creation' tempting supposedly 'god' the creation is offering the creation to supposedly 'god'?

I need not say more...

Open your heart and God given intellect and think for a moment.

The 'devil' has opportunity to 'tempt' 'god' and trick 'god' or 'god' hesitates.

no it's quite clear from even these verses Jesus is differentiated from God again and again. The verse of Jesus talking about not tempting the lord is as is in the old testament. He is not refering to himself and come on now all the other highlighted stuff just rock bottoms whatever you were trying to 'allure to'

God gave you intellect, why are you so haughty and arrogant in accepting that which is true and blindly to no avail defending what you blindly believe and try to justify.

Jesus was a mighty servant of God who would not betray his faith in God. God is God.

It's quite clear how over and over God and Jesus are differentiated. How Jesus is dependant on God, etc... but they seem to just omit these things and it's around a circle we go.
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loco
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« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2013, 02:39:01 PM »

Jesus saying "I am God, worship me" is an example not "the Father and I are one," "Before Abraham was, I am," etc etc etc.  Surely something so significant at Jesus being divine would have been clearly and unambigiously stated.  Unambigiously by all readers' standards, not only readers who have been taught the Trinity growing up.

We both believe that Jesus was a prophet and we both believe that Jesus is the Christ(Messiah).

Can you find me Bible verses where Jesus says "I am a prophet" and "I am the Messiah"?
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« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2013, 02:48:22 PM »

^I think you're missing the point here. You have a handful of specks of dust of verses which ALLURE to 'divinity' in your own presentation of the verses. However there are explicit verses which illustrate Jesus as a man and prophet of God, clearly stating he is doing things by God's decree, God's will, God's permission, etc... The people in masses recognizing him as a prophet, etc...

Basically the ratio of verses which state this is far greater than to the verses which you repeatedly allure to.

What Bobber quite intelligently stated and I'm repeating it here again, is that IF what you are saying is true, it would be verse after verse after verse that is clear to all readers without contradiction that would be consistent. Instead we have loads of pages you trying to justify a few select verses in your own trinitarian view that you already preconceived. While there are hundreds of verses which quite clearly distinguish Jesus not being God and dependant on God and people seeing him as a man, a messenger, a prophet.

So if someone with no knowledge of the 'trinity' comes and reads they will understand Jesus was a prophet of God, a man sent by God. However your outside influence persuades you to try to find verses which say Jesus is 'divine'.

One would not conclude this without something external. As if one reads the whole bible they very well will understand that son of God is metaphorical in the language as used in the old testament as well. Jews themselves understood it as such.
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Archer77
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« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2013, 02:49:44 PM »

L. Ron Hubbard said Jesus was an false memory implanted by the evil overlord xenu.  Discuss.
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« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2013, 02:54:40 PM »

We both believe that Jesus was a prophet and we both believe that Jesus is the Christ(Messiah).

Can you find me Bible verses where Jesus says "I am a prophet" and "I am the Messiah"?

Sure, Matthew 13:57 Jesus calls himself a prophet "But Jesus said to them, a prophet is not without honour except in his own country and in his own house" when Jews were offended at him in Nazareth."

Why didn't he say "God is not without honour..."?
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