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Author Topic: Bible Verses Clearly Denying Jesus Being God  (Read 2378 times)
bigbobs
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« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2013, 02:58:15 PM »

^I think you're missing the point here. You have a handful of specks of dust of verses which ALLURE to 'divinity' in your own presentation of the verses. However there are explicit verses which illustrate Jesus as a man and prophet of God, clearly stating he is doing things by God's decree, God's will, God's permission, etc... The people in masses recognizing him as a prophet, etc...

Basically the ratio of verses which state this is far greater than to the verses which you repeatedly allure to.

What Bobber quite intelligently stated and I'm repeating it here again, is that IF what you are saying is true, it would be verse after verse after verse that is clear to all readers without contradiction that would be consistent. Instead we have loads of pages you trying to justify a few select verses in your own trinitarian view that you already preconceived. While there are hundreds of verses which quite clearly distinguish Jesus not being God and dependant on God and people seeing him as a man, a messenger, a prophet.

So if someone with no knowledge of the 'trinity' comes and reads they will understand Jesus was a prophet of God, a man sent by God. However your outside influence persuades you to try to find verses which say Jesus is 'divine'.

One would not conclude this without something external. As if one reads the whole bible they very well will understand that son of God is metaphorical in the language as used in the old testament as well. Jews themselves understood it as such.

Very well said bro!  Basically these guys are forcing an interpretation of the ambiguous verses they present to fit with their Trinity doctrine because they want to believe in it.  Anyone who is not pre-biased to believing Jesus is God does not interpret their ambiguous verses the same way.
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loco
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« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2013, 03:25:27 PM »

Sure, Matthew 13:57 Jesus calls himself a prophet "But Jesus said to them, a prophet is not without honour except in his own country and in his own house" when Jews were offended at him in Nazareth."

Why didn't he say "God is not without honour..."?


And where in the Bible did Jesus say "I am the Messiah"?

No, Jesus didn't call himself a prophet in Mathew 13:57.  He did not say "I am a prophet."  Why would a Bible verse such as Mathew 13:57 satisfy your belief that Jesus called himself a prophet, yet only a Bible verse where Jesus says "I am God" would satisfy you when it comes to the deity of Jesus?

Please find me Bible verses where Jesus says "I am a prophet" and "I am the Messiah."
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loco
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« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2013, 03:34:56 PM »

The word translated to "woshipped" here and in referencing to people "worhsipping" Jesus is Proskuneo, which could also mean bowing to.
The true word for woship is latreuo, which appears 22 times in the New Testament but none towards Jesus.

bigbobs,

The Greek word Proskuneo also means Worship.  It is used many places in the New Testament in reference to worshiping God.  In Matthew 4:9, Proskuneo is used in reference to worshiping Satan, and in Matthew 4:10 in reference to worshiping God.

Matthew 4:9-10
9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’"

So my question stands:  If Jesus is not God, then why did he not stop, rebuke or correct people, like Peter did in Acts 10:25-26 and like the angel did in Revelation 22:8-9, when people called him God to his face or when they worshiped him?
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bigbobs
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« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2013, 03:44:19 PM »

And where in the Bible did Jesus say "I am the Messiah"?

Not sure if it's said, I don't have all verses of the Bible memorized.

No, Jesus didn't call himself a prophet in Mathew 13:57.  He did not say "I am a prophet."  Why would a Bible verse such as Mathew 13:57 satisfy your belief that Jesus called himself a prophet, yet only a Bible verse where Jesus says "I am God" would satisfy you when it comes to the deity of Jesus?

Please find me Bible verses where Jesus says "I am a prophet" and "I am the Messiah."

I didn't say only a Bible verse where Jesus says "I am God" would be considered unambigious, that was an example of what an unambiguous verse may contain.  Like I posted earlier which you ignored, had Jesus said, "God is not without honour..." referring to himself that would be much better.  But no, he called himself a prophet, yet in your mind he expected the Jews to understand his declaring himself a prophet as "he's a prophet and God at the same."
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bigbobs
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« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2013, 03:51:47 PM »

bigbobs,

The Greek word Proskuneo also means Worship.  It is used many places in the New Testament in reference to worshiping God.  In Matthew 4:9, Proskuneo is used in reference to worshiping Satan, and in Matthew 4:10 in reference to worshiping God.

Matthew 4:9-10
9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’"

So my question stands:  If Jesus is not God, then why did he not stop, rebuke or correct people, like Peter did in Acts 10:25-26 and like the angel did in Revelation 22:8-9, when people called him God to his face or when they worshiped him?

So Proskuneo means simply bowing to and can also mean worship, yet selectively you're expecting me to believe it's the "worship" meaning when referring to Jesus yet the "bowing" meaning when referring to Abigal and David?  Using your logic, because David did not stop rebuke or correct Abigail from Proskuneo'ing him in 1 Samuel 25 that would mean he is also God  Huh
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loco
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« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2013, 06:23:35 AM »

Not sure if it's said, I don't have all verses of the Bible memorized.

I didn't say only a Bible verse where Jesus says "I am God" would be considered unambigious, that was an example of what an unambiguous verse may contain.  Like I posted earlier which you ignored, had Jesus said, "God is not without honour..." referring to himself that would be much better.  But no, he called himself a prophet, yet in your mind he expected the Jews to understand his declaring himself a prophet as "he's a prophet and God at the same."

Jesus did not call himself a prophet in Mathew 13:57.  You have double standards.  You don't have a problem with Jesus never saying "I am a prophet" or "I am the Messiah" in the Bible.  However, to you Jesus is not God because he supposedly never said "I am God" in the Bible.    Roll Eyes

bigbobs, why is it that Muslims use the Bible to try to affirm their Muslim faith?  Don't you Muslims already have your Qur'an?  Is the Qur'an not good enough for you?
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loco
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« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2013, 06:42:15 AM »

So Proskuneo means simply bowing to and can also mean worship, yet selectively you're expecting me to believe it's the "worship" meaning when referring to Jesus yet the "bowing" meaning when referring to Abigal and David?  Using your logic, because David did not stop rebuke or correct Abigail from Proskuneo'ing him in 1 Samuel 25 that would mean he is also God  Huh

The word "proskuneo" is a Greek word used in the New Testament and it means "to kiss the hand, bow down before, show obeisance, to worship."

David and Abigail are in the Old Testament, which was written in Hebrew.

The word proskuneo is used in the New Testament in regards to the devil, the dragon, the beast, the image, demons, idols, an angel, to God and to Jesus.

If you say that proskuneo in the New Testament means worship only in regards to the devil, the dragon, the beast, the image, demons, idols, an angel, to God, but it means "bow down" in regards to Jesus then you are the one being selective and the one showing bias.
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bigbobs
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« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2013, 09:53:27 AM »

Jesus did not call himself a prophet in Mathew 13:57.  You have double standards.  You don't have a problem with Jesus never saying "I am a prophet" or "I am the Messiah" in the Bible.  However, to you Jesus is not God because he supposedly never said "I am God" in the Bible.    Roll Eyes

Hmm...seems you didnt read or didnt understand my earlier post, so I'll repaste it here while bolded some phrases and commentary to make it easier to understand.  

I didn't say only a Bible verse where Jesus says "I am God" would be considered unambigious, that was an example of what an unambiguous verse may contain.  Like I posted earlier which you ignored, had Jesus said, "God is not without honour..." referring to himself that would be much better.  But no, he called himself a prophet, yet in your mind he expected the Jews to understand his declaring himself a prophet as "he's a prophet and God at the same."

i.e. saying "a prophet is not without honour" (regarding himself) is an example of an unambigious declaration of his prophethood.  There are no such unambigious declarations from Jesus of being God.  

Also, I don't need to find Biblical evidence of Jesus being the "Messiah" either, because the fact that Islam teaches it is enough for me.  As for whether there is Biblical evidence or not, I can try to search it for you when I have time.

bigbobs, why is it that Muslims use the Bible to try to affirm their Muslim faith?  Don't you Muslims already have your Qur'an?  Is the Qur'an not good enough for you?

I use the Bible in an attempt to spread the truth, not in an attempt to affirm my faith.  A side effect of me learning the Bible with the intention of spreading the truth is that it also reaffirms my own faith in Islam.
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bigbobs
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« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2013, 10:00:10 AM »

The word "proskuneo" is a Greek word used in the New Testament and it means "to kiss the hand, bow down before, show obeisance, to worship."

David and Abigail are in the Old Testament, which was written in Hebrew.

The word proskuneo is used in the New Testament in regards to the devil, the dragon, the beast, the image, demons, idols, an angel, to God and to Jesus.

If you say that proskuneo in the New Testament means worship only in regards to the devil, the dragon, the beast, the image, demons, idols, an angel, to God, but it means "bow down" in regards to Jesus then you are the one being selective and the one showing bias.


Okay, but the point still stands that if David being "worshipped" by Abigail in the Old Testament without instructing Abigal not to worship him in response, then Jesus being "worshipped/proskuneo'd" in the NT is not evidence of him being God, unless you believe the OT verses suggests that David is God as well.  Can't have it both ways.
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loco
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« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2013, 11:02:19 AM »

Okay, but the point still stands that if David being "worshipped" by Abigail in the Old Testament without instructing Abigal not to worship him in response, then Jesus being "worshipped/proskuneo'd" in the NT is not evidence of him being God, unless you believe the OT verses suggests that David is God as well.  Can't have it both ways.

Funny how you dodged my post there.    Roll Eyes

What makes you think Abigail worshiped David?  Why did Jesus not stop people from worshiping him unless he is God?  Peter stopped Cornelius, and the angel stopped John.  Whey did Jesus not stop those who worshiped him?
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bigbobs
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« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2013, 11:47:18 AM »

Funny how you dodged my post there.    Roll Eyes

What makes you think Abigail worshiped David?  Why did Jesus not stop people from worshiping him unless he is God?  Peter stopped Cornelius, and the angel stopped John.  Whey did Jesus not stop those who worshiped him?

I didn't dodge anything.  You want to selectively interpret incidents based on what you want to believe:

a)  Abigail "worships" David, David is not recorded to have stopped this person, this does not mean David is God
b)  Someone "worships" Jesus, Jesus is not recorded to have stopped this person, but this must mean Jesus is God.

Why the double standard?

Also, just because of the scripts we have (none of which were written during Jesus' time by the way) don't mention Jesus stopping this person does not mean he did not.
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« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2013, 11:57:26 AM »

I didn't dodge anything.  You want to selectively interpret incidents based on what you want to believe:

a)  Abigail "worships" David, David is not recorded to have stopped this person, this does not mean David is God
b)  Someone "worships" Jesus, Jesus is not recorded to have stopped this person, but this must mean Jesus is God.

Why the double standard?

Also, just because of the scripts we have (none of which were written during Jesus' time by the way) don't mention Jesus stopping this person does not mean he did not.

Abigail did not worship David.

I have posted many Bible verses where Jesus was worshiped, but he never stopped anybody from worshiping him.  Why did Jesus not stop them?
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« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2013, 12:07:51 PM »

I think I know what you're trying to get at now.  It's impossible for anyone to know for certainty where their destiny lies.  This is in line with being completely dependant on God, our destiny lies soley in his hands, and belieiving that you have gauranteed eternal paradise is in conflict with believing your destiny in solely in God's hands.  You can say "I have a guarantee that I will go to heaven" all you want but that does not make it true.  

To answer your question one should follow the prophet of their time and prior, and in doing so there woudl be no conflict since all prophets taught the same thing.  There is no evidence of Jesus teaching that he was God, for example.  

Actually the indwelling of the Holy Spirit absolutely affirms the truth for believers.  Believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit can experience our living God on a daily basis in a very personal, tangible manner.  Convicting us at our core, guiding us, allowing us to discern right from wrong, discern scripture and live in accordance with God's will more fully.....having the Holy Spirit wash over us and feeling the presence of God in the privacy of your own home, or in your car, or at the gym is incredible....just you and the spirit of the creator of the universe....humbling and awesom!!  It's absolute, 100%, undeniable proof and it's also the most mocked, ridiculed aspect of Christianity that I know of.  Wish I could share my experiences with you, but they're mine and mine alone.  Although, belief in our risen God, Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will bring the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and everything therein for any that believe.....it's all I want for everyone, but it just isn't up to me.  

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« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2013, 12:17:54 PM »

Actually the indwelling of the Holy Spirit absolutely affirms the truth for believers.  Believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit can experience our living God on a daily basis in a very personal, tangible manner.  Convicting us at our core, guiding us, allowing us to discern right from wrong, discern scripture and live in accordance with God's will more fully.....having the Holy Spirit wash over us and feeling the presence of God in the privacy of your own home, or in your car, or at the gym is incredible....just you and the spirit of the creator of the universe....humbling and awesom!!  It's absolute, 100%, undeniable proof and it's also the most mocked, ridiculed aspect of Christianity that I know of.  Wish I could share my experiences with you, but they're mine and mine alone.  Although, belief in our risen God, Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will bring the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and everything therein for any that believe.....it's all I want for everyone, but it just isn't up to me.  



1 John 5:12-13
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
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« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2013, 01:17:34 PM »

Abigail did not worship David.

I have posted many Bible verses where Jesus was worshiped, but he never stopped anybody from worshiping him.  Why did Jesus not stop them?

Abigail "bowed/fell on her face" in 1 Samuel 25.  Proskuneo can also mean "bowing to" similar to what Abigail did to David.  Yet you selective chose the "worshipped" translation of proskuneo.  The true word for worship is latreuo which appears 22 times in the NT but not once regarding Jesus.
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« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2013, 01:20:58 PM »

Abigail "bowed/fell on her face" in 1 Samuel 25.  Proskuneo can also mean "bowing to" similar to what Abigail did to David.  Yet you selective chose the "worshipped" translation of proskuneo.  The true word for worship is latreuo which appears 22 times in the NT but not once regarding Jesus.

I already told you.  Proskuneo is a Greek word.  1 Samuel 25 was originally written in Hebrew.  Who claims that Abigail "worshiped" David?  Nobody.  Did you pull that out of your butt?
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« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2013, 01:22:39 PM »

I already told you.  Proskuneo is a Greek word.  1 Samuel 25 was originally written in Hebrew.  Who claims that Abigail "worshiped" David?  Nobody.  Did you pull that out of your butt?

Yes Proskuneo is a Greek word that can mean bowing to.  Abigal bowed to David.  Yet you selectively chose the "worshipped" translation of proskuneo rather than the "bowing to" translation.  The true word for worship is latreuo which appears 22 times in the NT but not once regarding Jesus.

You can reply and simply repeat yourself again, but I won't repeat my response again.  Not worth wasting time on you.
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« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2013, 01:27:31 PM »

Yes Proskuneo is a Greek word that can mean bowing to.  Abigal bowed to David.  Yet you selectively chose the "worshipped" translation of proskuneo rather than the "bowing to" translation.  The true word for worship is latreuo which appears 22 times in the NT but not once regarding Jesus.

You can reply and simply repeat yourself again, but I won't repeat my response again.  Not worth wasting time on you.

You are repeating yourself, dancing around the issue and dodging my point.

The word "proskuneo" is a Greek word used in the New Testament and it means "to kiss the hand, bow down before, show obeisance, to worship."

David and Abigail are in the Old Testament, which was written in Hebrew.

The word proskuneo is used in the New Testament in regards to the devil, the dragon, the beast, the image, demons, idols, an angel, to God and to Jesus.

If you say that proskuneo in the New Testament means worship only in regards to the devil, the dragon, the beast, the image, demons, idols, an angel, to God, but it means "bow down" in regards to Jesus then you are the one being selective and the one showing bias.
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bigbobs
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« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2013, 01:29:48 PM »

If you say that proskuneo in the New Testament means worship only in regards to the devil, the dragon, the beast, the image, demons, idols, an angel, to God, but it means "bow down" in regards to Jesus then you are the one being selective and the one showing bias.

Show me where I said this?  Huh  Quite the contrary I said the true word for worship is not even proskuneo.
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« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2013, 01:34:56 PM »

Show me where I said this?  Huh  Quite the contrary I said the true word for worship is not even proskuneo.

You tell me.  The word Proskuneo in the New Testament, when used in regards to the devil, the dragon, the beast, the image, demons, idols, an angel, to God, does it mean to "bow down" or to "worship"?
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« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2013, 01:53:07 PM »

You tell me.  The word Proskuneo in the New Testament, when used in regards to the devil, the dragon, the beast, the image, demons, idols, an angel, to God, does it mean to "bow down" or to "worship"?

It can mean either, I'm not one to speculate what it means where, but for that reason to show evidence that the Bible definitely states that Jesus was worshipped the word latreuo should be shown.
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« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2013, 02:03:43 PM »

It can mean either, I'm not one to speculate what it means where, but for that reason to show evidence that the Bible definitely states that Jesus was worshipped the word latreuo should be shown.

But you are speculating.  And why should the word latreuo be the used in regards to the worship of Jesus when the word proskuneo is used in the New Testament in regards to the worship of the devil, the dragon, the beast, the image, demons, idols, an angel, to God and to Jesus?  Because you say so?
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bigbobs
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« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2013, 02:12:04 PM »

But you are speculating.  And why should the word latreuo be the used in regards to the worship of Jesus when the word proskuneo is used in the New Testament in regards to the worship of the devil, the dragon, the beast, the image, demons, idols, an angel, to God and to Jesus?  Because you say so?

YOU are speculating that proskuneo in the NT is used as "worship" re: the devil, dragon, etc. not me.
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« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2013, 02:24:16 PM »

YOU are speculating that proskuneo in the NT is used as "worship" re: the devil, dragon, etc. not me.

Now you are being dishonest, or maybe you have no idea which Bible verses I'm referring to.
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« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2013, 02:35:25 PM »

Now you are being dishonest, or maybe you have no idea which Bible verses version I'm referring to.

Well I guess that depends on the translation version doesn't it?

It's funny when I illustrated this very point about people falling at Jesus' feet, etc... in some versions, in other's it translated as worship, in other's as prostrating, etc... I quoted a few different versions. Each version differed here and there.

What did you do? Stop quoting the verses that were translated as not worship and kept repeating over and over and over again the verses which kept saying worship in a few different versions.

Look who's really dishonest. Hah
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