Minimum Wage - Depressing Numbers

[Tapeworm]

Thank God.  An economist at last.

[syntaxmachine]

There are laws of Economics which are as unalterable as the law of gravity.

This isn't even close to being true, though the "laws" of economics are indeed useful generalizations which tend to obtain.

For example, here's a case where the "law" of demand was violated -- a games company initiated an ironic sale in which their product was more expensive than its ordinary price; people got the joke and decided to reward the company with an increase in quantity demanded.

Useful generalizations, nothing more.

[galeniko]

now that i made the point from right wing perspective,let me make the other one

why is it good to have regulations and checks and balances and some rules.

bc the ppl are assholes.

you can open a pizza resterant and make the best pizzs in the world and make the price "pay as much or little you fel its worth"

someone here was naive enough to try that and very soon failed haha

[Shockwave]

Yeah, I've draw an arbitrary line, I admit.  A lean first world standard of living in exchange for 40 worked hours.  You could just as easily draw the line just this side of starvation, or a living that the milkman in the 50s enjoyed.  It seemed like as good a place as any.  I don't believe that someone can have my arbitrarily set quality of life on 300/wk, however.

But from a purely practical perspective, I'm not convinced that raising the min wage is bad for those earning more.  If your earnings stay the same in relation to living costs then you're no worse off, so why care.  Some argue that a better off lower class would spur the economy to everyone's benefit.  I'm not economist enough to do it, but there are countries where no one seems to be suffering ill effects of a more generous minimum wage, so I struggle to take seriously cut-n-dried economic opinions about dumbells sucking the place dry.  If anything, it would get more people off welfare and out of quick dollar crime.  

Who knows.  Ask 3 economists, get 3 opinions.  In the absence of a definitive answer, I'm inclined to lean toward "Be nice."  See the kind of world you want to live in and don't do things that destroy it unless there's absolute proof they are necessary.

yeah, I agree for the most part. Its just, where do we draw the line? I myself think 10 dollars is the absolute max for 99% of the US (maybe more in the LA area), obviously less in the mid west or places like Texas.

I personally feel that it should be left up to the individual states to decide and not for the Fed to try and draw an arbitrary line in the sand for the whole country, as different states have different costs of living and 10/hour would be a nice living in indiana, or abject poverty in SoCal.

I also dont feel a person necessarily deserves a wage just because he is present for 40 hours/week. I remember working fast food and those emoyees literally did just enough to not get fired, they literally were not worth the minimum wage +1.50 they were making. They got that simply because you got mandatory raises every 6 months and yet they werent worth pissing on to out out the fire.

this was at an arbys.  My personal experience is why I dont believ.everyone is owed a decent living wage just because they roll out of bed.

[Thin Lizzy]

This isn't even close to being true, though the "laws" of economics are indeed useful generalizations which tend to obtain.

For example, here's a case where the "law" of demand was violated -- a games company initiated an ironic sale in which their product was more expensive than its ordinary price; people got the joke and decided to reward the company with an increase in quantity demanded.

Useful generalizations, nothing more.

Your taking a silly one off exception and presenting as a rule.

Do you think this idea would work in the long run? If so, why haven't any big retail chains implemented it?

There were three NFL teams that hadn't sold all their playoff tickets for this weeks' games. Do you think this was because not enough people wanted to go to the games or because of the price?

[syntaxmachine]

Your taking a silly one off exception and presenting as a rule.

My sole point is that the "laws" of economics aren't exceptionless generalizations like the laws of physics, as you implied. This is even more true of the generalizations that economists make about complex phenomena that result from the interactions of the various "laws," like the effects of raising the minimum wage (the literature presents a mixed message).

In any case, I'm sure that we agree that there are better means available for helping the working poor, like the earned income tax credit.

[Tapeworm]

yeah, I agree for the most part. Its just, where do we draw the line? I myself think 10 dollars is the absolute max for 99% of the US (maybe more in the LA area), obviously less in the mid west or places like Texas.

I personally feel that it should be left up to the individual states to decide and not for the Fed to try and draw an arbitrary line in the sand for the whole country, as different states have different costs of living and 10/hour would be a nice living in indiana, or abject poverty in SoCal.

I also dont feel a person necessarily deserves a wage just because he is present for 40 hours/week. I remember working fast food and those emoyees literally did just enough to not get fired, they literally were not worth the minimum wage +1.50 they were making. They got that simply because you got mandatory raises every 6 months and yet they werent worth pissing on to out out the fire.

this was at an arbys.  My personal experience is why I dont believ.everyone is owed a decent living wage just because they roll out of bed.

I can see that.  There's always going to be some hopeless fucks but most of us grow out of it eventually, I think. 

I've made it my New Years Resolution!

[tonymctones]

No.  Data schmata.  No one can conclusively prove what the future holds if they increase the minimum wage.  And it wouldn't happen in a vacuum, so whatever fate would eventuate, paradise or doom, no one could claim it was more than a causal factor and even that would end up debated.

What I fail to understand is: Do those who oppose the min wage raise feel they have something to lose?  Or is it just a question of what min wage earners deserve in contrast to your earnings and perceived expenditure of effort?

I meant data in regards to your claim that 50 years ago a milk man could send his kids to college and have his wife stay home....

What I fail to understand is why people have such low expectations of others. The vast majority of thse people by your own admission have the ability to do better with their lives yet you would rather they get paid more to push buttons on a cash register and clean tables than become a more productive member of society?

[Thin Lizzy]

My sole point is that the "laws" of economics aren't exceptionless generalizations like the laws of physics, as you implied. This is even more true of the generalizations that economists make about complex phenomena that result from the interactions of the various "laws," like the effects of raising the minimum wage (the literature presents a mixed message).

In any case, I'm sure that we agree that there are better means available for helping the working poor, like the earned income tax credit.

You are correct in that you can't calculate the exact effects of a price increase. For instance, if Apple were to increase the price of the Ipad by $100, I can't tell you the exact effect it would have on sales. However, I can state that it is an absolute certainty that if Apple were to continually raise its price, it would eventually affect demand.

Same holds true for min wage. Keep raising it, demand for labor eventually drops. The question that usually comes up in this argument is: Why not raise it to $20 or $25 an hour. Everything would be great, right?

I believe that people who support min wage increases are generally well intentioned they just dont have the economic chops to get why it doesn't work.

And, yes anything that takes money out of the hands of sleazy pols is a good thing.

[markofan]

Plenty of information on the effects of minimum wage laws

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/09/thomas-sowell/minimum-wage-madness/

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/11/dom-armentano/the-minimum-wage-outlaws-jobs/

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/09/dom-armentano/minimum-wage-maximum-nonsense/

https://www.lewrockwell.com/1970/01/murray-n-rothbard/outlawing-jobs-the-minimum-wage-oncemore/

There is plenty of evidence to refute the claims for increasing the minimum wage.  These are just a few of many articles on the subject here:

http://www.google.com/custom?q=minimum+wage]&cof=LW%3A500%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.lewrockwell.com%2Fwp-content%2Fthemes%2Flrc%2Fimages%2Fgoogle-search-header.png&domains=www.lewrockwell.com&sitesearch=www.lewrockwell.com

[Tapeworm]

I meant data in regards to your claim that 50 years ago a milk man could send his kids to college and have his wife stay home....

What I fail to understand is why people have such low expectations of others. The vast majority of thse people by your own admission have the ability to do better with their lives yet you would rather they get paid more to push buttons on a cash register and clean tables than become a more productive member of society?

I know but it doesn't matter.  You'd declare the milkman to be a non-representative example of 1950s era milkmen as a whole, or an aberation due to post-war prosperity, or something, and I'd counterclaim that there's nothing wrong with him and what have you got against milkmen anyway.  You know how these things go.  We'll agree he was the delivery driver of his era for now and leave the Great Milkman Debate for another day.

If they push buttons or clean tables for 40 hrs a week then they should be paid enough to pay their bills (in b4 spending habits).  No, they don't already.  Someone who does more, whether in quantity or quality, should make more.  Agree.  Disagree.  It's out of my hands.

[SF1900]

If people at Burger King start getting paid $15.00 an hour, you know where Vince Goodrum is going to be working. Do you really want him and Queen Vissy flipping your burgers? 

[tonymctones]

I know but it doesn't matter.  You'd declare the milkman to be a non-representative example of 1950s era milkmen as a whole, or an aberation due to post-war prosperity, or something, and I'd counterclaim that there's nothing wrong with him and what have you got against milkmen anyway.  You know how these things go.  We'll agree he was the delivery driver of his era for now and leave the Great Milkman Debate for another day.

If they push buttons or clean tables for 40 hrs a week then they should be paid enough to pay their bills (in b4 spending habits).  No, they don't already.  Someone who does more, whether in quantity or quality, should make more.  Agree.  Disagree.  It's out of my hands.

so basicially NO, you dont have any facts to support your argument and dispute the facts against your argument.

If you said from the beginning that your argument was based solely on feelings, this could have been all avoided....

[tonymctones]

If they push buttons or clean tables for 40 hrs a week then they should be paid enough to pay their bills (in b4 spending habits).  No, they don't already. 

and again no facts to support this...or refute the fact that a single person working full time making minimum wage is above the poverty line.

I would love to live in fantasy world too where feelings are all that matter. Unfortunately I live in the real world where facts show your ignorance for what it is, an emotion based argument.

[Tapeworm]

so basicially NO, you dont have any facts to support your argument and dispute the facts against your argument.

If you said from the beginning that your argument was based solely on feelings, this could have been all avoided....

Your position is similarly based on emotion.  You don't want people to get something you don't feel they deserve.

I want what I feel is right.  You want what you feel is fair.  Neither of us have any indisputable facts that demonstrate our position is the correct one.  That's because there isn't a correct one.  It's simply a matter of belief.  We're 2 guys with differing opinions.  It happens all the time.

[Tapeworm]

I'm not sure if now would be a good time to mention that the min wage in aus is something like $20/hr for an 18yo.

[tonymctones]

Your position is similarly based on emotion.  You don't want people to get something you don't feel they deserve.

I want what I feel is right.  You want what you feel is fair.  Neither of us have any indisputable facts that demonstrate our position is the correct one.  That's because there isn't a correct one.  It's simply a matter of belief.  We're 2 guys with differing opinions.  It happens all the time.

LOL no no no sir, I dont think people should be paid more than they are worth. I understand that a very very VERY SMALL % of the population does need to be taken care of and completely support that. I do not support giving people more than they are worth if THEY CHOOSE to not better themself.

My stance is not emotion based at all but nice try there

[Rome]

Perhaps Warren will turn out to be more than just another politician and have some empathy for those having a tough time.

Mr Obama was pretty much Bush with a tan and some kinky hair.

And the weak arguments AGAINST raising the minimum wage are beyond pathetic, these guys sound like wall street "experts" trying to explain their convoluted finical products. 

[polychronopolous]

I know but it doesn't matter.  You'd declare the milkman to be a non-representative example of 1950s era milkmen as a whole, or an aberation due to post-war prosperity, or something, and I'd counterclaim that there's nothing wrong with him and what have you got against milkmen anyway.  You know how these things go.  We'll agree he was the delivery driver of his era for now and leave the Great Milkman Debate for another day.

The fringe benefits for him were off the chain though.

From what I understand he was tapping everything in sight.

[Las Vegas]

The fringe benefits for him were off the chain though.

From what I understand he was tapping everything in sight.

hahahaha...nice 

[tonymctones]

The fringe benefits for him were off the chain though.

From what I understand he was tapping everything in sight.

hahah touche sir

[pellius]

That's what I'm trying to accomplish with the minimum wage increase. The increase would apply to the territory of the USA, including Hawaii. I can't believe I have to point this out to you...

I'm not a liberal.

Like I said, off the mark.

I bet the average IQ in the mainland went down 50 points once you set foot in it.

Should've stayed in Hawaii picking pineapples kanapapiki.

Of course you are a liberal. Doesn't matter what you claim. You hold the positions associated with the left. Liberals from some reason are often ashamed to admit they are liberal whereas conservative, though demonized by the majority, have no problem affirming where their values lie. Let me guess, you call yourself an independent yet there are very few actual positions associated with the right that you subscribe to.

Nonetheless you betray yourself by simply the way you debate. Your arguments are emotion based so you don't engage in rational exchange but simply emote. I disagree with the minimum wage and present my reason for doing so. The belief in economic freedom and that in any transaction the only people who should be making the decisions are the buyer and the seller. This applies whether i you are buying or selling a pair of shoes, a loaf of bread or someone's labor. You take personal offense to this and the insults and ad hominem attacks soon surface. Whereas I believe that your position is simply wrong I in no way consider it a statement on your humanity or decency. You believe that I am not only wrong but a bad and evil person and have ill will towards me. That I want people to suffer and starve to death. Just look at your angry and vindictive avi comment" "conservatives should be hung by the balls." I don't want hang any liberal hung by the balls. I just don't want them making social policy.

Good day, sir.

[Tapeworm]

The fringe benefits for him were off the chain though.

From what I understand he was tapping everything in sight.

You cheeky bugger.

[pellius]

Your position is similarly based on emotion.  You don't want people to get something you don't feel they deserve.

I want what I feel is right.  You want what you feel is fair.  Neither of us have any indisputable facts that demonstrate our position is the correct one.  That's because there isn't a correct one.  It's simply a matter of belief.  We're 2 guys with differing opinions.  It happens all the time.

There's a distinction to be made between one's ideology, which is perhaps emotional base, and how one defends and justifies that ideology. For instance, believing in economic freedom, that people should be allowed to make decisions for themselves and not have an outside third party busybody interfering in those decisions may be emotionally based. But why you think that is better for society should be based on reason and logic. And conversely, it may be emotionally base that one believes that it should be the government that should determine the price of a good or service, in this case labor, then objective arguments should be presented as to why it would be better and the impact it will have on the market.

[James28]

So you could buy Hawaii? Why don't you do that and house all the people you claim to care so much about?

You're quite full of yourself, aren't you? But that's typical of Liberals. They are better and smarter than everyone else and knows what's best for them. Even how much one should pay and be paid.

Wake up Pellius, the guy is trolling you. You're a bit slow today.