MSNBC Host: Your Kids Belong to the Collective

[MCWAY]

I agree... That's also a part of our educational issue... Look at the black community. How much do they support raising their children? If they aren't on Maury... They don't care.

EXACTLY!! And it's progressive policies and morals (or lack thereof), championed by the likes of Harris-Perry, that fosters such an environment.

Even when black people favor school choice, folks like her HOWL and SCREAM against it. Why? Because it empowers the parents, NOT the state.

[Archer77]

She is really a pos like most on that station

I can understand what she means.  In a society we are all connected some way.  It's just that her whole world is centered on finding racism everywhere.   I bet that's all she ever talks about.

[avxo]

I'm not sure I disagree with her "completely" though... I don't like how she puts it, but it does take a village to raise a child properly... Not just one person.

In some respects, I agree as well. Although I suspect her view is more extreme than yours or mine.

[tu_holmes]

In some respects, I agree as well. Although I suspect her view is more extreme than yours or mine.

Unfortunately, that's the problem in general... No one wants to look at it from a common sense perspective, they all just go to one extreme or the other.

:-/

[MCWAY]

My wife and I have had rigorous discussions about education, particularly school choice (vouchers).

She's dead set against them; I'm for them. She thinks that it waters down private school education, because (at least at certain schools) it forces those schools to dumb down educational standards.

I'm for them, because it allows for black families to get their kids out of failing schools. But, if they cut up, the private schools usually have the power to discipline those kids appropriately (booting them out, if necessary).

[tu_holmes]

My wife and I have had rigorous discussions about education, particularly school choice (vouchers).

She's dead set against them; I'm for them. She thinks that it waters down private school education, because (at least at certain schools) it forces those schools to dumb down educational standards.

I'm for them, because it allows for black families to get their kids out of failing schools. But, if they cut up, the private schools usually have the power to discipline those kids appropriately (booting them out, if necessary).

That's an entirely separate issue.

Giving schools the ability to discipline children again would be a fantastic start. Let's go back to the time when if you were a kid you got a paddle... You got swatted when you fucked up.

It happened to me and I think I turned out ok.

[24KT]

It happened to me and I think I turned out ok.

That's highly debateable!     

[MCWAY]

That's an entirely separate issue.

Giving schools the ability to discipline children again would be a fantastic start. Let's go back to the time when if you were a kid you got a paddle... You got swatted when you fucked up.

It happened to me and I think I turned out ok.

Same here. It's the old board of education to the seat of knowledge.

But, the issues here are not quite separate. School vouchers empower the parents, as opposed to leaving it all up to the state.

[tu_holmes]

That's highly debateable!     

Most people would say that I'm a productive member of society.

[24KT]

Most people would say that I'm a productive member of society.

I'm just teasing you. 

[tu_holmes]

Same here. It's the old board of education to the seat of knowledge.

But, the issues here are not quite separate. School vouchers empower the parents, as opposed to leaving it all up to the state.

That's fair, but does the voucher system then increase the cost of education across the board?

[avxo]

Most people would say that I'm a productive member of society.

More importantly, you are a respected getbigger!

[tu_holmes]

More importantly, you are a respected getbigger!

True... society can suck it.

[MCWAY]

I went to a private school until I was 10.

I was ready for college from a language perspective by then... As a matter of fact I took my SATs at 12 and aced the verbal portion.

None of my public school counterparts were able.

We do spend a ton of money on education, but ultimately, it's not about money... It's about personal responsibility... Do you want to do well or not? Does your family promote your education or not?

If they don't, then you get what you get.

I'm not sure I disagree with her "completely" though... I don't like how she puts it, but it does take a village to raise a child properly... Not just one person.

My foray into public schools was mercifully brief.  You may have heard this story before, about my 10th grade experience. In particular, it was my biology class. I went to a private school the first half of tenth grade and public school my second half. The former was Creation-based biology; the latter was evolution based.

The latter class was a joke. I zipped through that with almost no effort.

In fact, I bought (at a homeschool fair)  a copy of the very book I used in private school that year.

[MCWAY]

That's fair, but does the voucher system then increase the cost of education across the board?

From what I've seen, it does not. The money, allocated for public school, is used for the voucher at the private school. Tuition is usually less there. In fact, in the Ohio school voucher case, Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, there was a cap on the money allotted which was based on public school costs.

If a private school's tuition exceeded that amount, the parent had to pay the rest out of pocket. Despite that, 96% of all voucher recipients sent their kids to private schools.

[Archer77]

That's fair, but does the voucher system then increase the cost of education across the board?

My main issue with vouchers is when they are used for religous schools.  In my opinion this is a fundamental violation of the separation between church and state.

[MCWAY]

My main issue with vouchers is when they are used for religous schools.  In my opinion this is a fundamental violation of the separation between church and state.

I disagree. Fortunately, so did the Supreme Court in Zelman v. Simmons-Harris. But, it was a split decision, 5-4. And it's a tightrope deal.

The gist is that the program had a secular purpose (education for low-income kids) and thus religious schools can be used in the mix. The same amount of money was allocated for all schools, public and private.

The SCOTUS ruled that the state's involvement ends, once the money is given to the parents. So, the choice of private schools is solely on the parents, not the state. As long as that's the case, there's no constitutional violation.

[Archer77]

I disagree. Fortunately, so did the Supreme Court in Zelman v. Simmons-Harris. But, it was a split decision, 5-4. And it's a tightrope deal.

The gist is that the program had a secular purpose (education for low-income kids) and thus religious schools can be used in the mix. The same amount of money was allocated for all schools, public and private.

The SCOTUS ruled that the state's involvement ends, once the money is given to the parents. So, the choice of private schools is solely on the parents, not the state. As long as that's the case, there's no constitutional violation.

It is the law of the land and for that reason it must be accepted.  As far as I am aware, at least in michigan, on average the amount spend per child is a higher than what most individuals pay in taxes intended for education. In this scheme,  the money in each student voucher isn't representative of the taxes paid toward education. I may be wrong, so, this is a statement/question.

Going on a tangent in 3,2,1...

In a weird way this empowers the poor, who often don't pay taxes at all, than it does working class or higher income families who can afford to live on areas with better schools.  At the same time, lower income parents who often have difficulty arranging adequate transportation wouldn't be able to take advantage of vouchers.  Even if it they were able to take advantage of the vouchers, it doesn't necessarily mean private schools have to accept them. 

[MCWAY]

It is the law of the land and for that reason it must be accepted.  As far as I am aware, at least in michigan, on average the amount spend per child is a higher than what most individuals pay in taxes intended for education. In this scheme,  the money in each student voucher isn't representative of the taxes paid toward education. I may be wrong, so, this is a statement/question.

Going on a tangent in 3,2,1...

In a weird way this empowers the poor, who often don't pay taxes at all, than it does working class or higher income families who can afford to live on areas with better schools.  At the same time, lower income parents who often have difficulty arranging adequate transportation wouldn't be able to take advantage of vouchers.  Even if it they were able to take advantage of the vouchers, it doesn't necessarily mean private schools have to accept them.  

That's true. Private schools, even public schools, aren't required to accept vouchers. In fact, many state constitutions are stricter on this issue than the US Constitution is.

Zelman simply says that, if a state has a voucher program, it must be in the same format as the one in Ohio. There's a 5-point litmus test.

• The program must have a valid secular purpose,

• Aid must go to parents and not to the schools,
• A broad class of beneficiaries must be covered,
• The program must be neutral with respect to religion, and
• There must be adequate nonreligious options.

[Archer77]

That's true. Private schools, even public schools, aren't required to accept vouchers. In fact, many state constitutions are stricter on this issue than the US Constitution is.

Zelman simply says that, if a state has a voucher program, it must be in the same format as the one in Ohio. There's a 5-point litmus test.

• The program must have a valid secular purpose,

• Aid must go to parents and not to the schools,
• A broad class of beneficiaries must be covered,
• The program must be neutral with respect to religion, and
• There must be adequate nonreligious options.

 Thanks for the info.  I appreciate clearing up the details for me.

[MCWAY]

Thanks for the info.  I appreciate clearing up the details for me.

No problem!! You might live in a state, that clearly bans any public school funds being used at private schools (most of which are religious ones).

Zelman doesn't mandate voucher use. But, to avoid the church-state issues, the aforementioned criteria must fit.

[tu_holmes]

From what I've seen, it does not. The money, allocated for public school, is used for the voucher at the private school. Tuition is usually less there. In fact, in the Ohio school voucher case, Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, there was a cap on the money allotted which was based on public school costs.

If a private school's tuition exceeded that amount, the parent had to pay the rest out of pocket. Despite that, 96% of all voucher recipients sent their kids to private schools.

I've never known a private school to be cheaper than a public one.

Not in my entire existence on earth have I seen that.

[tonymctones]

Where are all the fundy liberals to defend this?

i was hoping for some more blind deflection from strawman, blacken and lurker

[MCWAY]

Where are all the fundy liberals to defend this?

i was hoping for some more blind deflection from strawman, blacken and lurker

Lurker might be on the wrestling thread. Straw and Blacken....good luck with those two. Defending liberal foolishness ain't their bag. Last time I checked, they were chirping about my thread about that teenager and global warming.

[Soul Crusher]

I've never known a private school to be cheaper than a public one.

Not in my entire existence on earth have I seen that.

In NYS we pay double for public school vs what a typical private charges.