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Author Topic: Do you think there is any point in a natural base?  (Read 5862 times)
Army of One
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« on: July 21, 2013, 11:09:58 AM »

I personally built one just because I didn't want the hassle of needles etc but with the net being the way it is it is far easier now.As you guys know when you are muscular, you get questions and one of the main ones I get from young guys is " should I build a natural base first or just jump on a cycle?" .I always say natural base just so Im no responsible for some idiot doing something stupid but is a natural base really needed?

My main point is say a guy is 140, his max weight naturally @ 9% bodyfat is 195, could he not just quickly juice up to 195-200 and then with good pct and carrying on with good nutrition, training and rest keep himself around 195 for a good 20 years or more naturally?I mean if he can do this in a year rather then 4 naturally and still keep his gains then why not?I never get a definitive answer for guys who juiced for all gains, since so many just quit training once back to natural, so they may have lost the gains natural or not.And this is just about keeping the muscle once off cycle, sides are reduced with proper pct and proper training, nutrition and rest are known and taken by the user.
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Borracho
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2013, 11:14:34 AM »

I think the importance of natural training is mostly wrt learning how to train and eat properly. That can take a while...people who juice without any prior experience don't see the difference between "on" or "off" to stay motivated to train regardless.
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2013, 11:16:08 AM »

Ye
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2013, 11:18:07 AM »

I think the importance of natural training is mostly wrt learning how to train and eat properly. That can take a while...people who juice without any prior experience don't see the difference between "on" or "off" to stay motivated to train regardless.

pretty much this
so not neccesarily for a 'natural foundation blabla', but just take some time to learn your shit
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Army of One
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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2013, 11:18:14 AM »

I think the importance of natural training is mostly wrt learning how to train and eat properly. That can take a while...people who juice without any prior experience don't see the difference between "on" or "off" to stay motivated to train regardless.

But say they were previously athletes, are familiar with methods of training and importance of protein intake and eating slightly above maintenance?not really interested in the human failings , rather if those gains are keepable assuming the user gets to his natural limit and not too far above and assuming the user is spot on with training and nutrition after cycle.
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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2013, 11:18:45 AM »

I think natural base will only matter later on in life...Most won't be able to stay geared up all the time and when these guys come off and sometimes for good, without the natural base, they will look untrained as if they never stepped in a gym in their life...
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Borracho
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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2013, 11:24:32 AM »

But say they were previously athletes, are familiar with methods of training and importance of protein intake and eating slightly above maintenance?not really interested in the human failings , rather if those gains are keepable assuming the user gets to his natural limit and not too far above and assuming the user is spot on with training and nutrition after cycle.

If I could go back in time I would've used a lot sooner. Gear will take you to the "natural limit" a lot faster. Let's face it, that limit is not anything impressive for most people.
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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2013, 11:24:45 AM »

I think the importance of natural training is mostly wrt learning how to train and eat properly. That can take a while...people who juice without any prior experience don't see the difference between "on" or "off" to stay motivated to train regardless.

x2
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« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2013, 11:25:36 AM »

If I could go back in time I would've used a lot sooner. Gear will take you to the "natural limit" a lot faster. Let's face it, that limit is not anything impressive for most people.


yeah, most of the top guys in the game were running something early.  i know we always here "devvelop your foundation first" but the reality seems to be the opposite.
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Borracho
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« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2013, 11:30:33 AM »


yeah, most of the top guys in the game were running something early.  i know we always here "devvelop your foundation first" but the reality seems to be the opposite.

Yeah and you can find pics of these guys at 12 already taking half naked pics hitting poses. This is what they wanted to do since very early on.
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« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2013, 11:35:43 AM »

No.

I believe you need strength/athletic base overall, be somewhat flexible and strong. Everyone I know (and I know plenty) who lacked that failed miserably at building any physique, drugs or not.
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Borracho
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« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2013, 11:47:19 AM »

No.

I believe you need strength/athletic base overall, be somewhat flexible and strong. Everyone I know (and I know plenty) who lacked that failed miserably at building any physique, drugs or not.

Yeah you have to be the type that enjoys physical activity to begin with I'd say. But juice or no juice weight training and a good diet will enhance everyone's strength and body composition. In the beginning, personal improvements is what should motivate people not what someone else lifts or what they look like.
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« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2013, 12:03:38 PM »

well, with AAS, everything you do WORKS.

you grow when you train wrong.

you grow eating the wrong food.

you get lean eating the wrong food.

you grow when you train 7 days a week.

.... now, if you've spent a few years training, and figure out how to train, grow, and get lean without drugs, it's much easier to train, grow, and get lean WITH DRUGS.

that being said.... take a guy who'd gone from 165-205 with no drugs over 4 years, then after 2 years of drugs goes to 230, and take a guy who'd gone from 165 to 230 in 6 years being on drugs the entire time... if they both go off, and both quit training, the first guy will probably go back to 195, and the 2nd guy will probably go back to 165.

now, if they quit training and just maintain hrt test doses, they'll probably maintain 205 and 185 respectively.

not always the case with 100% of ppl 100% of the time, but in general.
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« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2013, 12:05:42 PM »

well, with AAS, everything you do WORKS.

you grow when you train wrong.

you grow eating the wrong food.

you get lean eating the wrong food.

you grow when you train 7 days a week.

.... now, if you've spent a few years training, and figure out how to train, grow, and get lean without drugs, it's much easier to train, grow, and get lean WITH DRUGS.

that being said.... take a guy who'd gone from 165-205 with no drugs over 4 years, then after 2 years of drugs goes to 230, and take a guy who'd gone from 165 to 230 in 6 years being on drugs the entire time... if they both go off, and both quit training, the first guy will probably go back to 195, and the 2nd guy will probably go back to 165.

now, if they quit training and just maintain hrt test doses, they'll probably maintain 205 and 185 respectively.

not always the case with 100% of ppl 100% of the time, but in general.

Great post!

Build a base and a few years experience to learn your body. I think it takes 5 years to do this adequately.
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Borracho
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« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2013, 12:13:04 PM »

well, with AAS, everything you do WORKS.

you grow when you train wrong.

you grow eating the wrong food.

you get lean eating the wrong food.

you grow when you train 7 days a week.


I don't know about this one....seen plenty getting nothing but side effects or nothing at all.


that being said.... take a guy who'd gone from 165-205 with no drugs over 4 years, then after 2 years of drugs goes to 230, and take a guy who'd gone from 165 to 230 in 6 years being on drugs the entire time... if they both go off, and both quit training, the first guy will probably go back to 195, and the 2nd guy will probably go back to 165.




I'd say it depends on the person's genetics on how much he can retain if they stop everything. But then again, that's another big "probably".
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« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2013, 12:14:31 PM »

Have spent 15 years trying to build a natural base  Undecided
Now probably stuck being natural for life (ffs) cant say whether or not its been worth it.
Seen a couple of mates hop on the gear having never touched a weight beforehand. Needless to say it was a waste of time.
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« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2013, 12:37:06 PM »

A person should workout seriously for a few years before taking steroids anyway. Then, it becomes how much do you want to take, and how big do you want to get. It is all synthetic in the end.
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« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2013, 01:11:27 PM »

I think natural base will only matter later on in life...Most won't be able to stay geared up all the time and when these guys come off and sometimes for good, without the natural base, they will look untrained as if they never stepped in a gym in their life...

 Wink
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ukjeff
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« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2013, 01:13:30 PM »

You can always tell the guys who developed a base when they finally come off as opposed to the guys who started using on day one.
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« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2013, 01:46:37 PM »

speaking for my self, i did a good few year before going on, when im off for a long period lowest weight ive been with a tight waist is 15.7 st, i dont think this would be possible if id jumped straight on, as ive freinds who have literally shrunk down to nothing, one of them could bench 5 plates also.....
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Borracho
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« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2013, 01:48:08 PM »

You can always tell the guys who developed a base when they finally come off as opposed to the guys who started using on day one.

But how exactly can you tell?

There's people who respond amazingly to gear. So if and when they shrink down, how can you be sure that's not the way they'd look like had they just trained naturally all their lives.

We've all seen the pics of tp and mustafa mohammed off juice and they look like aids patients. But these guys went to the extreme and fucked their health up for good.

And who comes off these days anyways...hrt seems what most people are doing.

Seems like you can juice on higher doses when young since the body is able to tolerate it better and maintain on very little as you age. I wish I hadn't wasted so much time naturally...fuck!
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« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2013, 01:56:49 PM »

make no mistakes, after 3 or 4 years natty,you are treading water for the rest of your life muscle mass wise.. u may get a little stronger and gain a teeny bit here n there, but thats the way the cookie crumbles
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Borracho
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« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2013, 02:00:36 PM »

make no mistakes, after 3 or 4 years natty,you are treading water for the rest of your life muscle mass wise.. u may get a little stronger and gain a teeny bit here n there, but thats the way the cookie crumbles

That seems pretty realistic.

What non users fail to realize that even with gear it takes time to build real muscle. They read "first cycle" experiences from people saying they put over 20 pounds thinking that its all muscle.  Grin
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« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2013, 02:10:04 PM »

i used to laugh like fuck at those types.... blow up huge, then start talking about doing a show,,, a few weeks down the line there looking like they have a wasting disease... needless to say, talk of competing goes out the window
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« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2013, 02:15:07 PM »

i used to laugh like fuck at those types.... blow up huge, then start talking about doing a show,,, a few weeks down the line there looking like they have a wasting disease... needless to say, talk of competing goes out the window

 
Like the lifetime naturals thinking they're a cycle or two away from the olympia stage.  Grin
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