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Author Topic: Do you think there is any point in a natural base?  (Read 6053 times)
local hero
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« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2013, 02:26:46 PM »


Like the lifetime naturals thinking they're a cycle or two away from the olympia stage.  Grin


yes, they clearly are delusional.............. altho i remember my 1st ever dbol, took 2 before bed and couldnt wait to get up the next day, i was dissapoint Cry
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« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2013, 02:29:46 PM »

I went from 147 to 175 without ever touching any gear! A good two years of hard training and eating!
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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2013, 02:34:48 PM »

make no mistakes, after 3 or 4 years natty,you are treading water for the rest of your life muscle mass wise.. u may get a little stronger and gain a teeny bit here n there, but thats the way the cookie crumbles

Mee Depends. I started fifteen and gained the latter 3-4 years

Natural gains are very slow but not every is maxed out after 4 years. You need to learn what you respond to and just that can take some time.
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« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2013, 02:43:06 PM »

I went from 147 to 175 without ever touching any gear! A good two years of hard training and eating!

Similar to me (not trying to one up you bro). Went from 145lbs at 5'10 to 195lbs in my first 5 years, completely drug free. (Bodyfat the the end was 10%).
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« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2013, 03:15:08 PM »

Similar to me (not trying to one up you bro). Went from 145lbs at 5'10 to 195lbs in my first 5 years, completely drug free. (Bodyfat the the end was 10%).
Thats because no man is naturally 145 pounds. It was probably a combination of late puberty plus the training.
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« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2013, 03:21:51 PM »

No one is saying you can't make some gains naturally. It makes sense that you'd exhaust all means naturally before taking the next step. Just as you would gradually work your way up in doses if you wanna continue to grow. Someone smart would try to get as much as you can with as little as possible before upping the dose. Now if someone has high aspirations( I would ask myself why) in bbing than it would make sense to go another route. But for us just trying to look a little better you might be satisfied with something low doses(or nothing) might give you.
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« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2013, 03:22:56 PM »

No one is saying you can't make some gains naturally. It makes sense that you'd exhaust all means naturally before taking the next step. Just as you would gradually work your way up in doses if you wanna continue to grow. Someone smart would try to get as much as you can with as little as possible before upping the dose. Now if someone has high aspirations( I would ask myself why) in bbing than it would make sense to go another route. But for us just trying to look a little better you might be satisfied with something low doses(or nothing) might give you.
Meltdown.
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« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2013, 03:46:26 PM »

natural base gives you time to learn how to train, 'mind muscle connection' etc.. how to eat to grow and how to eat to get lean, it gives you discipline and work ethic

i trained naturally for 4-5 years, got to 200lbs, then after playing around with dbols followed by 2 proper cycles was 250 off season, no way would i have reached 250 in that time had i started from day one
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« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2013, 03:57:43 PM »

Mee Depends. I started fifteen and gained the latter 3-4 years

Natural gains are very slow but not every is maxed out after 4 years. You need to learn what you respond to and just that can take some time.

as has been said, you were growing into a man anyway......... no one gains mass after initial growth period, this shit about adding so many lbs each year natty are daydreams of the delusional
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« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2013, 03:58:25 PM »

super solid exerxcise form perhaps
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« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2013, 04:00:26 PM »

maximising anabolic windows and dc fascia stretching techniques, maybe you will have a chance
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« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2013, 04:31:34 PM »

Theoretically, if you have the idea of becoming the best competitive bb you can be, and have
the genetics (which you only know for sure in retrospect, unfortunately) there almost no TIME
to be training clean for years and years. Basically almost all the best bodybuilders in history started juicing in their teens. If you wait until say 21 or 25 you are at a disadvatage compared to those who have already been on for a few years. You should already be gunning for you pro card at that age... ideally.

Also, I believe the younger you start the more effective the gear is.

Think of your favorite bb's... chances are they started in their mid teens... or late teens anyhow.
Shit Arnold started at 13 or 15, depending on who you believe.

The point made by some about having any type athletic background before starting juicing is good. Those don't need much bodybuilding specific foundation building time. They know how to exert themselves etc.
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« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2013, 04:32:59 PM »

hel, id even say after 1 year of knowing what ones doing, diet and train properly(you do know what i mean,the ignorant dont),after 1 year dieted down and 4 years dieted down, natty will look within 2% difference.

maxed out 95% after 1 random year and 1 year of knowing what theyre doing.

but to have a base is important hell yes

i was giving a bit leeway, but i pretty much agree with that,,, if you took a matured male, 20 odd, gave him a bit coaching , he would more than likey be maxed out at a year

for an example,all those with delusions ask your self this, how much have your arms realy grew since your initial growth phase, with out drugs? im not talking spongy fat arms either, defined veiny arms??? id bet not alot if any at all.....

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« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2013, 04:35:23 PM »

i was giving a bit leeway, but i pretty much agree with that,,, if you took a matured male, 20 odd, gave him a bit coaching , he would more than likey be maxed out at a year

for an example,all those with delusions ask your self this, how much have your arms realy grew since your initial growth phase, with out drugs? im not talking spongy fat arms either, defined veiny arms??? id bet not alot if any at all.....



Absolutely agree.
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« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2013, 05:13:35 PM »

well, from personal experience I went from 90lbs to 120lbs after a year, 120 to 150lbs the second year, and 150 to 180 the third (also went from 5'7" to 5'11" in that time). I was a skinny kid (as if you can gather from my 90lb starting point. lol), and it's not like it was puberty weight, since I'd already sounded like a white barry white and was shaving once a week at 14.

arms weren't huge, but had good bicep peak and lateral head tricep separation (I did lack the long head mass I later developed), and my v-taper was there and my delts were already round and popping. so I knew how to make certain things grow and how to explain it to others. and I knew early on (from the time I was in the 3rd grade) that I wanted to be a professional bodybuilder (how's that for a pipe-dream eh?. haha), so i'd better learn how to do things RIGHT early, before I used steroids (which Id commited to doing early on).

bodybuilding, like any other endeavor, if you want to be successful at it, requires planning, goals, and ways to measure progress. I knew at the very least, if I never turned pro, or competed at all, i'd most likely still be making my living in the 'fitness' industry & training others. so I knew i'd better be a sponge early on, and absorb everything I could. lucky for me, I don't have a photographic memory, I have a "videographic-memory" and I remember EVERYTHING I read, hear, and see. So I can recall everything I learned about training, nutrition, chemistry, pharmacology, ect... and after a while you start to recognize contradictions in other ppl's theories and methods (HIT vs volume vs Milos vs Hany vs Duchaine vs Bachelodor vs Pat Arnold vs palumbo vs o'reagan vs trevor smith vs john brown vs ect... ect... ect... ) you realize they all work, but none work all the time. and you form your own theories and figure out what works for you, and learn when to change things up, and for how long, and to what extent, ect...

if you don't "think" about training, and why you're doing what you're doing, you'll have a very short bodybuilding 'career'. because eventually, with or without steroids, something is gonna stop working the way it used to.

I feel sorry (almost.. haha) for guys with supurb genetics, because everything works. look at flex, Ronnie, dex, to name a few pro's, but there are thousands of guys all over the country with similar genes.. everything they do works. try to have flex explain to an intermediate bber how to grow his stubborn arms, have Ronnie explain how to train chest, dex how to train back, mattarrazzo how to train calves, demayo how to train quads. they'll do a little of this and a little of that and 'poof!" muscle's grow! next week they do something else and 'poof!' muscles grow again... you think they understand why? or understand how to help somebody else grow? I doubt it, seriously. that's why they have trainers telling them what to do. lol.. what to eat.. what drugs to take, ect...

I think it's more important, at least equally important, (to building a natural base) for a guy to head to a thrift store and pick up some old copy's of endocrinology and pathology textbooks and try to understand how their body actually works before they use steroids, thyroid, insulin, growth hormone, anti aromatase, pde5s, anti-5a, or stimulants.
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« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2013, 07:59:13 PM »

Didn't Dexter Jackson compete as a lightweight as an adult? And Lee Lair Priest has been juiced to the gills since he was like 12 or something...Naturally these two guys would be tipping the scales at about 140 pounds...lol
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« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2013, 08:25:57 PM »

Any studies posted on this Huh
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« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2013, 09:08:06 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X1uSCecLyA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X1uSCecLyA</a>
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« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2013, 09:13:06 PM »

The only point of natural training is to be healthier and live longer than most people if you also eat healthy at the same time. It is a fact people who exercize not being extremists and who eat well simply make their bodies last longer. As simple as that.
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« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2013, 10:25:22 PM »

Any studies posted on this Huh

You never struck me as the "studying" kind of feller.
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« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2013, 12:13:14 AM »

I think most bb:s were skinny guys to begin with. Look at mass monsters even Like Fux, Nasser and Dorian. They were not big guys, but when they started training and doing bb right. They blew up fast! Fux said something like if you don't gain 30 kg (66-70 lbs) in one year you don't have what it takes to turn pro.
I was really skinny when I started going to the gym. 59 kg at 5.10, thats what 132? I met van_bilderass or what he calls himself on this board and he was like "dude you should stop hitting the pec deck and just focus on bench, deads and squats. Life heavy as you can with good form and get strong and eat bro. He taught me how to do everything and I think I could bench about 60 kg as a beginner (145?) and he told me that he could train me for three months natural and I would be able to bench 100kg (225). He had me on a program where I benched three times a week doing 10 sets of 1 rep, resting as long as I neede to finish another set. Every workout he added 2.5kg to the bar. I did some complementary work to the bench such as DB-press one arm holding the rack, and the other side pressing. Dips and some rotator work. After 3 months i did not do 100kg..I did 110 for 2. He knows his shit. I did not have a strong built or anything to begin with, but I could and still can train hard. He trained another guy who won the nationals at 19 that had Amazing genes. He trined him basic and hard. Van offcurse dig roids like we all do. But he could bench 400 pounds on just clenbuteroleti. He taught me how to dEadliFt and I did 440 lbs or 200kg at 16 y/o. He also trained Chris Nober to place third in Light heavyweight AT EUROPEAN CHAMPIONERIOTI a month or so ago...I have'nt trained in 6 months, not donr gear for a few years but I got a solid base going from that heavy basic lifting. I was 225lbs or 100kg clean before la route des roides at 15%, BUT WITH THEM i GOT UP TO 120KG AT 15% AND LATER DOWN TO 105KG AT 8% (i TRAINED WITH DOZ THEN THOUGH). tHANKS vAN_BILDER TRAINER OF NATURSL BORN JUICERS.
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« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2013, 02:15:54 AM »

No. Myth perp by body builders
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« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2013, 02:18:11 AM »

I personally built one just because I didn't want the hassle of needles etc but with the net being the way it is it is far easier now.As you guys know when you are muscular, you get questions and one of the main ones I get from young guys is " should I build a natural base first or just jump on a cycle?" .I always say natural base just so Im no responsible for some idiot doing something stupid but is a natural base really needed?

My main point is say a guy is 140, his max weight naturally @ 9% bodyfat is 195, could he not just quickly juice up to 195-200 and then with good pct and carrying on with good nutrition, training and rest keep himself around 195 for a good 20 years or more naturally?I mean if he can do this in a year rather then 4 naturally and still keep his gains then why not?I never get a definitive answer for guys who juiced for all gains, since so many just quit training once back to natural, so they may have lost the gains natural or not.And this is just about keeping the muscle once off cycle, sides are reduced with proper pct and proper training, nutrition and rest are known and taken by the user.

Natural is always better broski.  Drugs have sides no matter what people say.
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« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2013, 05:16:59 AM »

The only point of natural training is to be healthier and live longer than most people if you also eat healthy at the same time. It is a fact people who exercize not being extremists and who eat well simply make their bodies last longer. As simple as that.

Pretty good point.

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« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2013, 06:01:35 AM »

You never struck me as the "studying" kind of feller.
I find this particular topic interesting.
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