‘White Student Union’ started at Georgia State

[Roger Bacon]

Im confused as to why you have a problem with white student unions. 

haha!!

All that, and it turns out he doesn't really even have a problem with it.  He was confused 

[Archer77]

Quote from: Archer77 on Today at 07:56:56 PM
No, there isn't.  First of all, white students should have the right to promote their own interests without the fear of social pressure.  Further more, groups that are largely white, are not formed on the basis of being white but around a common interest outside of race.  

Yes, there is. Whether or not majority White groups are formed on the basis of race, the fact that they are ultimately  almost exclusively white is the issue.

Why is it an issue?  Don't they have a right to associate and advocate for t heir interests?

[Al Doggity]

Im confused as to why you have a problem with white student unions.  

My first post in this thread was a reply to someone pointing out that using ethnocentric television to justify a white student group is asinine. There is no comparison. BET and Univision and the like exist because they focus on a demographic that would be completely ignored otherwise. Western culture is white by default.

[Al Doggity]

Quote from: Archer77 on Today at 07:56:56 PM
No, there isn't.  First of all, white students should have the right to promote their own interests without the fear of social pressure.  Further more, groups that are largely white, are not formed on the basis of being white but around a common interest outside of race.  




Why is it an issue?  Don't they have a right to associate and advocate for t heir interests?

the issue being what the difference between a white student group and other type of student group is.

[Al Doggity]

so the "mainstream media" is exclusionary by race even if the reason the exclude is not based on race but the NFL and NBA arent even though they do the same thing?

Oh, brother. You attempting logic again...

One of the reasons mainstream media use to exclude IS based on race.You admitted that.

 NFL and NBA don't. They are two of the country's only true businiess meritocracies.

[Al Doggity]

haha!!

All that, and it turns out he doesn't really even have a problem with it.  He was confused 

I can see why you and McTardo get along so well...

[Roger Bacon]

I can see why you and McTardo get along so well...

Good come back broseph 

[Archer77]

My first post in this thread was a reply to someone pointing out that using ethnocentric television to justify a white student group is asinine. There is no comparison. BET and Univision and the like exist because they focus on a demographic that would be completely ignored otherwise. Western culture is white by default.

They are ignored not for racist reasons but because it is not profitable to invest large sums of money appealing to a small demographic.  The amount of advertising dollars would not justify it.  UPN is a prime example.  UPN failed because not enough people were watching their minority centric shows and they couldn't generate any revenue. It's a mistake believe that a private company has any obligation to level the playing field.  Equality is not their business, generating a profit is.  

As I said,  the distinction between BET and any other network is that BET is racially motivated, while the major networks are motivated by profit.  Again, the music industry is a prime example of this works.  Music by black artist sell well so record companies release a disproportionate number of works by black entertainments.

Blacks are represented well on television if you consider their actual percentage of the population.    If you don't see as many minorities as you like, it may mean your conception of equality is skewered. It's a mistake to believe that equality means fifty-fifty. Also, equality doesn't mean that every situation requires the presence of a minority.  

If you ever watch black-centric shows it is immediately apparent that whites and other minority are woefully underrepresented.  Where are the whites and minorities?  You'd think that black people being such a small portion of the population, would be encountering other groups of people quite frequently.  Beyond the occasional white guest star or white/minority peripheral character-usual the focus of derision by the way- they are barely visible.  I doubt you noticed this because you weren't looking for it.  

[Al Doggity]

As I said,  the distinction between BET and any other network is that BET is racially motivated, while the major networks are motivated by profit.  Again, the music industry is a prime example of this works.  Music by black artist sell well so record companies release a disproportionate number of works by black entertainments.

There are a lot of factual errors in your last post. I don't really feel compelled to deal with most of them, but the one I will correct is the one I quoted, just because it's so blatantly wrong. BET is as much a profit driven business as any other network. The fact that its focus is a particular demographic doesn't change that. I'm tempted to deal with that music business comparison, but  

Still,  the fact remains that Western society is white by default, which was my original statement and is not really debatable. Whether or not you feel this fact is justified by economics was not something I ever brought up. Just the fact that it was true and that a white student group has a completely different connotation.

[Al Doggity]

Good come back broseph 

[Archer77]

There are a lot of factual errors in your last post. I don't really feel compelled to deal with most of them, but the one I will correct is the one I quoted, just because it's so blatantly wrong. BET is as much a profit driven business as any other network. The fact that its focus is a particular demographic doesn't change that. I'm tempted to deal with that music business comparison, but  

Still,  the fact remains that Western society is white by default, which was my original statement and is not really debatable. Whether or not you feel this fact is justified by economics was not something I ever brought up. Just the fact that it was true and that a white student group has a completely different connotation.

Whether BET is a profit driven organization is secondary to its main purpose and the reason it exists and was created, to promote blackness at the exclusion of others.  It doesn't matter if every other network is white by default, it is not racial exclusionary by design, BET clearly is.  BET doesn't have the same social  pressure major networks to accurately represent other groups, thus, the limited diversity in black entertainment. This is the greater tragedy because the lack of diversity isolates black people within a very narrow social bubble.

A white student union has the connotation you give it based on your own preconception and bias.  You falsely equating whiteness with racism, therefore, in your mind, the purpose of any group who identifies as white is innately racist or their aims are to undermine anyone who is not white.  In a free society, whites should have the same right to celebrate and advocate the interest of their culture as any other group.

Again, networks are not obligated to right inequities and you should not feel entitled to demand change. They owe you nothing.  What you want is fifty-fifty but unfortunately population demographics and economics will not allow this.

[Archer77]

There are a lot of factual errors in your last post. I don't really feel compelled to deal with most of them, but the one I will correct is the one I quoted, just because it's so blatantly wrong. BET is as much a profit driven business as any other network. The fact that its focus is a particular demographic doesn't change that. I'm tempted to deal with that music business comparison, but  

Still,  the fact remains that Western society is white by default, which was my original statement and is not really debatable. Whether or not you feel this fact is justified by economics was not something I ever brought up. Just the fact that it was true and that a white student group has a completely different connotation.

Westetn society is white by default but you can't assume this means western culture, or whites specifically, have any obligation to promote your interests at the expense of their own.  

[Al Doggity]

Whether BET is a profit driven organization is secondary to its main purpose and the reason it exists and was created, to promote blackness at the exclusion of others.

No,BET is a business. This is like saying McDonald's main purpose is to feed people and making a profit is secondary. Providing blackcentric entertainment IS the business model. They are not mutually exclusive goals.

It doesn't matter if every other network is white by default, it is not racial exclusionary by design, BET clearly is.

Yes, it does matter, we don't live in a cultural vacuum. The end result is what matters, and if there is a hole, someone enterprising will come along and fill it.

 BET doesn't have the same social  pressure major networks to accurately represent other groups, thus, the limited diversity in black entertainment. This is the greater tragedy because the lack of diversity isolates black people within a very narrow social bubble.

Wrong again.  it's not a tragedy. Part of the music thing I didn't get into in the last post...Why do you think that is? Why do you think black music has become so popular over the last 20 years. A huge part of that was BET playing music that MTV wouldn't play.

A white student union has the connotation you give it based on your own preconception and bias.  You falsely equating whiteness with racism, therefore, in your mind, the purpose of any group who identifies as white is innately racist or their aims are to undermine anyone who is not white.  In a free society, whites should have the same right to celebrate and advocate the interest of their culture as any other group.

Again, networks are not obligated to right inequities and you should not feel entitled to demand change. They owe you nothing.  What you want is fifty-fifty but unfortunately population demographics and economics will not allow this.

This is all stuff that you have imagined that has nothing to do with anything I've posted. Where did I mention racism? Where did I say that networks were obligated to "right inequities" or that they owe me anything? I have corrected a lot of your factual errors, but you are largely having an argument with yourself.

[Archer77]

Yes, they are intending to make money but at the exclusion of others.  It would be the equivalent of McDonald opening a black only restaurant.

It is a tragedy that blacks only value diversity when it benefits them. It demonstrates a complete lack of empathy for or interest in other cultures and perspectives, including other minorities and in particular women.  The absence of diversity in black entertain, specifically positive and diverse representations of whites, other minority and especially women does create a cultural vacuum while simultaneously developing unhealthy preconceptions about non-blacks and woman.  When such a person goes out into the world they will be severely handicapped by ignorance, bias and prejudice.

Black music has been popular for more than twenty years. The reason black music is popular is because people like it.  In turn record companies provide it to the consumer in mass. If more people enjoyed black-centric television as they do black music, the networks would be tripping over each other to produce television content. This was my entire point of bringing up the comparison between the television and music industries.

Do believe that networks should be obligated to present a more diverse representation of demographics in the United States in order to promote equality? If you don't, why did you bring up television?  You do not believe the under representation of blacks is based on economics. In your opinion, what else could it be?  You’re obvious implying its racially motivated, which it clearly is not.

[Al Doggity]

Yes, they are intending to make money but at the exclusion of others.  It would be the equivalent of McDonald opening a black only restaurant.

No, it would be the equivalent opening up a restaurant that specialized in burgers-  or Italian food. There is nothing stopping whites or any other race from watching BET. Many different ethnicities, do in fact, watch BET. Its programming keeps in mind what a black viewer would be interested in seeing and is not getting elsewhere, but no one is excluded from enjoying the content.

It is a tragedy that blacks only value diversity when it benefits them. It demonstrates a complete lack of empathy for or interest in other cultures and perspectives, including other minorities and in particular women.  The absence of diversity in black entertain, specifically positive and diverse representations of whites, other minority and especially women does create a cultural vacuum while simultaneously developing unhealthy preconceptions about non-blacks and woman.  When such a person goes out into the world they will be severely handicapped by ignorance, bias and prejudice.

LOL, yes because most black  people only watch BET  

Black music has been popular for more than twenty years. The reason black music is popular is because people like it.  In turn record companies provide it to the consumer in mass. If more people enjoyed black-centric television as they do black music, the networks would be tripping over each other to produce television content. This was my entire point of bringing up the comparison between the television and music industries.

There have always been popular hits by black musicians, but until about the mid-90s, popular music was highly segregated. Pop radio rarely played R&B, much less hip-hop. Mtv relegated hip-hop and r&b to weekly shows. BET's format was like 80% videos in the 80s and 90s and it was hugely culturally influential. It completely changed the way MTV and radio thought about their audiences. So, yes, the surge in popularity of black music is relatively recent and it is directly attributable to the existence of BET.
 

Do believe that networks should be obligated to present a more diverse representation of demographics in the United States in order to promote equality? If you don't, why did you bring up television?  You do not believe the under representation of blacks is based on economics. In your opinion, what else could it be?  You’re obvious implying its racially motivated, which it clearly is not.

I brought up television because it is the most obvious case of how American culture is white by default. The other stuff is your own deal, and it's not really logical to infer those things based on what I wrote. I never said, or even implied, that networks should be obligated to do anything or make any changes. I did say that networks do make decision based on race. If a network steers away from programming because the protagonists aren't white, then it is a racially motivated decision, regardless of whether or not economics comes into play. It's like saying a restaurant owner who doesn't hire an Indian waitress because he thought customers wouldn't be comfortable around a minority didn't make a decision based on race. Sure, economics was ONE  of the factors, doesn't change the fact that it was a decision based on race. You can make the argument that the restaurant owner was just doing what he thought would appeal most to his customer base, doesn't change the fact that the young lady's race was a strike against her.



 

[Shockwave]

I brought up television because it is the most obvious case of how American culture is white by default.

America is white by default because whites have always been the majority.

Derp.

[Al Doggity]

America is white by default because whites have always been the majority.

Derp.

This literally adds nothing to the conversation.

[Shockwave]

This literally adds nothing to the conversation.

Its not meant to do anything but point out much time you wasted arguing the obvious.

And your whole spiel about television is retarded. If you go by population percentage, then every show with 5 or 6 main characters would have 1 black character. (Which has been my experience at about every job I've ever worked at).

In my experience blacks tend to keep to their own social circles, they tend to live in the same neighborhoods, and they tend to work the same jobs. They exclude themselves, which is Archers point. But when white people do the same, they're called racist.

[Al Doggity]

Its not meant to do anything but point out much time you wasted arguing the obvious.

Except that this is literally the point of my argument.

[Roger Bacon]

I just wish there was a way that society could trade in all the Andres, Al Doggitys, and Blackens for Wiggins, Parkers, and McWays. 

[Irongrip400]

Al is a pretty good troll.

[Roger Bacon]

I'd even take a few Goodrums over a Benny Blanco 

[Kahn.N.Singh]

This thread's showing signs of mild hypoglycemia, let's take a brief time out for some Sugar Shack.

[24KT]

Networks produce content that sells.  If shows with more blacks or black centric attracted viewers and thus more advertising, the airways would be filled with them.  You only have to look at the music industry to prove this is true. Rap music by black entertainers sells therefore record companies release a ton of it. 

That's the argument, however, those of us familiar with the entertainment industry understand the truth. It is not about whether the content sells, ...it is about whether the content DELIVERS the desired audience to the advertiser. TV shows do not exist to "entertain" an audience. They exists to DELIVER commercials to an audience. Yes, you heard me correctly. TV shows are merely there as vehicles to provide commercial content to a target market. That's why we see so many fabulous, critically acclaimed shows with high ratings get cancelled.

A perfect example was "30 something" many years ago. It always came in #1 in it's time slot, great ratings, great writing, great performances etc., etc., etc., ...but the corporation that owned the commercial time slot wanted to deliver commercials to a much younger audience than 30 something was delivering. 30 something was cancelled. That's why you'll see shows like "JackAss" staying on the air, while quality content is not even put into production. Some corporations want to sell products to audiences prone to lighting their farts on fire, over trying to sell to a more cerebrally active crowd.

This is the distinction between traditionally white owned networks and black centric entertainment networks like BET.  BET is intentionally racially exclusionary while the other is not exclusionary because their main goal is profit not race.

Just so you are aware, BET is Black in name only. BET is a White owned television network that is trying to profit off the African American community.

  Also, privately owned television networks and film studios shouldn't be obligated to be fair.  They are in the business of making money, not soothing hurt feelings or fighting for social justice.

And why shouldn't a privately owned television network be obligated to play fair?
They are using the PUBLIC airways. They are receiving public monies, federal funds, and are subject to FCC / CRTC guidelines for content they put forth over PUBLIC AIRWAYS. Why shouldn't they fight for social justice? They are taking tax payer money and going into every home in the land. Make no mistake, they are already fighting, ...but for years, that fight has been to propagandize, and establish fear, animosity, division and denigrating stereotypes, while promoting other groups favourably. Make no mistake about it, the TV networks have been propagandizing for years, ...and it has been an active participant in much of the problems we observe today. So what's wrong with all of a sudden being fair? Adopting an inclusive policy or at the very least a representative policy is not about "soothing hurt feelings", ...it's about providing a modicum of truth. And I dare say will most likely be of far greater benefit to white populations than any benefit Blacks, Asians, hispanics or any other non euro descendent ethnicity would receive.

The more "mainstream" America sees of all ethnicities, in a fairer, and more representative light, ...the less fear, ignorance & paranoia that escalates out of control there would be. The less likely kids like Trayvon Martin would be to assume a chubby hispanic guy was gay and looking to jump his bones. the less likely a guy like George Zimmerman would be to assume a black kid in a hoodie was casing a future burglary location, ...and it really takes away the power of the race baiters & poverty pimps to polarize a society along racial lines.

[24KT]

ever stop to think that the majority of ppl who subscribe to cable and other movie channels are guess what? WHITE???

they arent excluding blacks or minorities on the basis or race you moron they are giving the CUSTOMERS what they want.

If their main customer base was black they would show more blacks, this isnt exclusionary based on race although I can understand how a simpleton who is looking for racism at every corner would jump to that conclusion.

yet another swing and a miss

That was the argument network execs made for years, until Cosby turned that argument on it's ass where it belonged. They made the same argument about feature films as well, ...then they produced "Waiting to Exhale", ...and turned that argument on it's ass again.

People are not going to pay good money to sit in a theatre and watch themselves denigrated on the screen.

In many cases there is a very good reason why their "customer base" is not Black!
It's the same reason why I suspect the majority of Pastor Manning's congregation is white.
What self -respecting Black person would listen to his garbage? Racist white's however find it pretty humourous.