Author Topic: Inequality for All  (Read 14207 times)

The_Hammer

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Inequality for All
« on: September 21, 2013, 11:14:44 PM »



arce1988

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2013, 11:15:37 PM »
  Great thread

deceiver

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2013, 11:18:33 PM »
Fucking commie. Some people are smart, some are not. Does he really think that everyone deserves to be rich? Wealth distribution in US is natural and it is similar to IQ distribution. Yes, not all smart people are rich but if you are smart you will not be poor unless you choose to be.

This is natural order of things.

The_Hammer

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2013, 11:22:45 PM »
Fucking commie. Some people are smart, some are not. Does he really think that everyone deserves to be rich? Wealth distribution in US is natural and it is similar to IQ distribution. Yes, not all smart people are rich but if you are smart you will not be poor unless you choose to be.

This is natural order of things.

Robert addressed this logic at 21:50 of this video (Bill Moyers)



The_Hammer

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2013, 11:26:26 PM »
Fucking commie. Some people are smart, some are not. Does he really think that everyone deserves to be rich? Wealth distribution in US is natural and it is similar to IQ distribution. Yes, not all smart people are rich but if you are smart you will not be poor unless you choose to be.

This is natural order of things.



BILL MOYERS: There are people who disagree with us on this, as I'm sure you know. They even celebrate inequality. When former Senator Rick Santorum was running for the Republican nomination for president last year, he made a speech at the Detroit Economic Club.

RICK SANTORUM at Detroit Economic Club: President Obama is all about equality of results. I'm about equality of opportunity. I'm not about equality of result when it comes to income inequality. There is income inequality in America. There always has been and hopefully, and I do say that, there always will be. Why? Because people rise to different levels of success based on what they contribute to society and to the marketplace and that's as it should be.

ROBERT REICH: Well, first of all, let's be clear about what we are arguing. Rick Santorum is exactly right in saying that nobody should expect or even advocate equality of outcome. The real problem is that we don't have equality of opportunity. What do I mean by that? Number one, the schools available to poor and lower middle class and many middle class families and their kids are not nearly as good as the schools available to the wealthy.

The tax laws are weighted increasingly in favor of the wealthy. Therefore a lot of middle class and poor people actually are paying, particularly through social security taxes, which nobody talks about. They all want to talk about income taxes. They're paying a much larger share of their income.

The laws governing almost everything we can imagine are tilted toward shareholders away from those whose major asset is your house. So it's not equality of opportunity. That's the problem. If we really had equality of opportunity we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I think again, it's important to bear in mind that some inequality is necessary if we're going to have a capitalist system that creates incentives for people to work hard and to invent and to try very hard. The question is not inequality, per se.

The question is, at what point do you tip over, do you get to a tipping point where the degree of inequality actually is threatening your economy, your society, your democracy? When do you reach a point where inequality is simply too much? Where most of your people feel like the game is rigged.

BILL MOYERS: The film makes it clear. You think we are reaching that tipping point, that we're just right there.

ROBERT REICH: I think that in terms of the economy, we are very close. In fact, the Great Recession-- it has many causes. But one of the major causes was that the last coping mechanism that the middle class used, even though their wages were flat or declining, to continue to spend and keep the economy going was to borrow against their homes. And that, of course, exploded in everybody's face. You couldn't do that.

So there's no longer a coping mechanism. One reason why the recovery has been so anemic is that you don't have enough purchasing power in your society because all of the gains are going to a very small number at the top. So you don't have to wait and say, "Well, we're going to get that tipping point economically, 'cause we're already there."

Fact of the matter is, most Americans now are losing faith in our democracy. Which seems to me, you know, is our most precious gift, the most precious legacy that we have to hand down to our future generations.

deceiver

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2013, 11:29:20 PM »
Inequality in access to education? What?

If you have internet you have access to everything. You have lectures from MIT, Stanford and so on online. Maybe instead of these guys invested as much time as they invest in searching for porn in searching for knowledge they would end up with bigger income than 30k$/year.

There are plenty of countries with free education by the way, nobody forbids you to emigrate. If USA is so shitty why don't they leave? You have free public education in Poland. Move to Poland. ENJOY.

The_Hammer

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2013, 11:36:59 PM »
Inequality in access to education? What?

If you have internet you have access to everything. You have lectures from MIT, Stanford and so on online. Maybe instead of these guys invested as much time as they invest in searching for porn in searching for knowledge they would end up with bigger income than 30k$/year.

There are plenty of countries with free education by the way, nobody forbids you to emigrate. If USA is so shitty why don't they leave? You have free public education in Poland. Move to Poland. ENJOY.

You assume everyone has access to computers/high speed internet.

You also assume that the poor would only spend their time look at online porn.

deceiver

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2013, 11:37:44 PM »
You assume everyone has access to computers/high speed internet.

You also assume that the poor would only spend their time look at online porn.


Of course everyone has access to internet and computers.

The_Hammer

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2013, 11:40:34 PM »
Of course everyone has access to internet and computers.


Do you have data to support your claim?

arce1988

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2013, 11:49:34 PM »
Quote
There always has been and hopefully, and I do say that, there always will be. Why? Because people rise to different levels of success based on what they contribute to society and to the marketplace and that's as it should be.


 Sadly, Cronyism and Nepotism keep a lot of those who should NOT be rich... rich

deceiver

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2013, 11:50:41 PM »

Do you have data to support your claim?

We are talking about USA, aren't we? Computers have same price everywhere in the world. In fact, they are cheaper in USA than anywhere else. Let's compare USA to Poland, shall we? Poor people in Poland earn about 500$ per month. Cost of living is maybe 80% of what it is here. Do the math. On top of that, I come from the biggest shithole in Poland. And yes, still, people do have computers here. And everyone has access to internet.

So please don't bullshit me. You don't even know the real meaning of "poor". You merely adopted the poverty. I was born in it, moulded by it. I didn't see iPhone until I was already a man...

TommyBoy

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2013, 11:52:48 PM »
Of course everyone has access to internet and computers.

You are trolling right? This is so far from true, even in the USA, that this statement has to be a troll. Let's not even get to talking about the rest of the world.

edit: Your claim is anecdotal for someone living in Poland. Well, it's wrong. Especially when applied to countries like the USA. I know of at least a dozen people personally that don't own, nor have access to a computer. Let alone the internet. Yeah, this is anecdotal, but it's the absolute truth. And these are people that aren't considered "poor" in the USA. Each one of these people know their own chain of people in the same situation.

arce1988

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2013, 11:55:42 PM »

syntaxmachine

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2013, 12:12:18 AM »
Inequality in access to education? What?

If you have internet you have access to everything. You have lectures from MIT, Stanford and so on online. Maybe instead of these guys invested as much time as they invest in searching for porn in searching for knowledge they would end up with bigger income than 30k$/year.

Hahah, yes, Tyrone's disposition is entirely of his making and if he'd only put down the bucket of chicken and become self-educated in economics, mathematics, and the like via online MIT courses, he'd be "balling" like the rest of us.

JBGRAY

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2013, 01:47:32 AM »
A school's success (% of graduates, test scores, etc) is tied to funding. Should any of those categories drop in percentage, funding is reduced or cut off, thereby eliminating a bureaucracy at best, an entire school at worst. In conclusion, the curriculum becomes so dumbed down that Leroy and Jose graduate (if they even do) at a 7th grade reading level. Many other poor countries around the world have far less resources and utilities than even the poorest of US public schools, yet their students are far better learned than their US student counterparts. These other countries are not afraid to flunk or challenge the student academically. If this results in Wang or Yakov having to graduate high school at 24, then so be it.

Also to blame is the criminal justice industry with its army of well-funded law enforcement agenies, lawyers, private prisons, and the courts that disproportionately punishes racial minorities and the poor. Once sentenced to jail, prison, probation, or even presented with an arrest record, the millions of ex-convicts are now subject to discriminatory hiring/enrollment practices by companies and colleges. This alone keeps a perpetual sizeable populace grounded and punished within the criminal justice system. All in the name of money and funding, of course.

Inequality kills competitiveness.

avxo

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2013, 02:01:20 AM »
We are talking about USA, aren't we?

Sure. Why not.


Computers have same price everywhere in the world.

They do? That's interesting... can you provide some evidence of this assertion for us?


In fact, they are cheaper in USA than anywhere else.

Hey... wait a second. You can't have your polish sausage and eat it too. You just finished telling us how the price of computers is the same everywhere. So which is it?


Let's compare USA to Poland, shall we?

Sure...


Poor people in Poland earn about 500$ per month.

At least they get paid in Zloty, which sounds way cooler than Dollar. But's let's say that the figure  you quote is accurate.


Cost of living is maybe 80% of what it is here.

Uhm, the United States is a big-ass country and the cost of living fluctuates wildly. You can't even begin to make the statement you're making without narrowing it down. Does the 80% you refer to correlate to the cost of living in New York City? In San Francisco? In Las Vegas? In Salt Lake City?


Do the math.

Just as soon as you give us some real numbers, instead of numbers you pulled out of your ass.


On top of that, I come from the biggest shithole in Poland. And yes, still, people do have computers here. And everyone has access to internet.

You are making an extreme claim that cannot possibly be supported. I get it - you are exaggerating for effect. But it's a dumb exagerration to make because it's so easy to disprove.


So please don't bullshit me. You don't even know the real meaning of "poor". You merely adopted the poverty. I was born in it, moulded by it. I didn't see iPhone until I was already a man...

I didn't either, and I've never been poor. Perhaps that has something to do with the fact that the iPhone wasn't introduced until I had been a man for quite a few years.

But in all seriousness, there are places in the United States where the poverty is extreme. Is it as bad as Poland? I don't know, but I'll tell that if everyone in Poland has Internet, then they're better off than many people in the United States. This is a fact.

According to the Social Security Administration in 2011, more than 23,000,000 Americans made less than $5,000, more than 13,000,000 made more than $5,000 but less than $10,000, and more than 12,000,000 made more than $10,000 but below $15,000.

Let that sink in for a moment... 48,000,000 Americans who worked in 2011 were below the federal poverty line.

Perhaps I, having only "adopted the poverty" (whatever the fuck that means) don't understand. But you, coming for the worst shithole in Poland should.

Archer77

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2013, 05:06:03 AM »
What does reich know about education? 
A

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2013, 05:37:00 AM »

Do you have data to support your claim?

Free public library. all have computers and high speed internet.

Parker

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2013, 05:51:06 AM »
Inequality in access to education? What?

If you have internet you have access to everything. You have lectures from MIT, Stanford and so on online. Maybe instead of these guys invested as much time as they invest in searching for porn in searching for knowledge they would end up with bigger income than 30k$/year.

There are plenty of countries with free education by the way, nobody forbids you to emigrate. If USA is so shitty why don't they leave? You have free public education in Poland. Move to Poland. ENJOY.
You don't get it do you? In America everybody has "rights" and "deserve everything".
That person who is searching for porn, thinks that they deserve a million dollars, because they have a right to.
Right now, you are supporting idiots who don't work and claim that they disabled because they self diagnosed themselves as "depressed" or hurt their arm 6 yrs ago, and now are hooked on Oxy. And all they do is sit on their collective asses and smoke weed, do Oxy, and get laid...and get a check cut for $700+.
Hell, many of the dudes who do this are getting more ass than you, while you are going to work, or school...
Some of these dudes are hitting off the wives of men making 6 or 7 figures...
Why, because our system not only allows it, it encourages it. Because these people will vote for the people who will continue the faucet to run. Not for those, who want to the faucet shut off.
And the repubs base want the faucet shut off for the above, but shut on for them. It's a shell game.


Archer77

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2013, 05:52:27 AM »
The most recent government data show more than half of the families defined as poor by the Census Bureau now have a computer in the home. More than three of every four poor families have air conditioning, almost two-thirds have cable or satellite television, and 92 percent have microwaves.  

How poor are America’s poor? The typical poor family has at least two color TVs, a VCR and a DVD player. A third have a widescreen, plasma or LCD TV.    And the typical poor family with children has a video game system such as Xbox or PlayStation.


Here are the percentages of households below the poverty level that the Census Bureau estimates had the following appliances:

Clothes washer: 68.7%

Clothes dryer: 65.3%

Dish washer: 44.9%

Refrigerator: 97.8%

Food freezer: 26.2%

Stove: 96.6%

Microwave: 93.2%

Air conditioner: 83.4%

Television: 96.1%

Video recorder/DVD: 83.2%

Computer: 58.2%

Telephone: 54.9%

Cell phone: 80.9%

Video game system: 53%

Internet service: 43%
A

Parker

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2013, 06:00:36 AM »
^Because one has to have cable, and PS3, XBox, etc. one has to have the latest smartphone. The freshest tattoos, the latest re-issued Nikes...

Montague

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2013, 06:14:48 AM »
The most recent government data show more than half of the families defined as poor by the Census Bureau now have a computer in the home. More than three of every four poor families have air conditioning, almost two-thirds have cable or satellite television, and 92 percent have microwaves.  

How poor are America’s poor? The typical poor family has at least two color TVs, a VCR and a DVD player. A third have a widescreen, plasma or LCD TV.    And the typical poor family with children has a video game system such as Xbox or PlayStation.


Here are the percentages of households below the poverty level that the Census Bureau estimates had the following appliances:

Clothes washer: 68.7%

Clothes dryer: 65.3%

Dish washer: 44.9%

Refrigerator: 97.8%

Food freezer: 26.2%

Stove: 96.6%

Microwave: 93.2%

Air conditioner: 83.4%

Television: 96.1%

Video recorder/DVD: 83.2%

Computer: 58.2%

Telephone: 54.9%

Cell phone: 80.9%

Video game system: 53%

Internet service: 43%



But, it's much easier to blame someone/something else. And if we gave more handouts, the "poor" would still bitch about the "unfairness."

Irongrip400

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2013, 06:21:15 AM »
The fact is, life isn't fair. For the most part, the cream rises to the top. The poor are poor because of circumstances they put themselves in due to poor decision making at some point. There are exceptions I'm sure, but for the most part, poor dumb people are poor because they're dumb.

Archer77

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2013, 06:32:29 AM »
^Because one has to have cable, and PS3, XBox, etc. one has to have the latest smartphone. The freshest tattoos, the latest re-issued Nikes...

Air Jordan's are to die for.....sometimes literally.


But, it's much easier to blame someone/something else. And if we gave more handouts, the "poor" would still bitch about the "unfairness."

Yes it is.  Poverty today and poverty fifty years ago are radically different.

The fact is, life isn't fair. For the most part, the cream rises to the top. The poor are poor because of circumstances they put themselves in due to poor decision making at some point. There are exceptions I'm sure, but for the most part, poor dumb people are poor because they're dumb.

Life isn't fair.  There are cycles of poverty that trap people.  A child raised in poverty by dumb parents is more likely to continue the cycle.  The real question is what do to. Population control is my answer.  People who have multiple children they can't afford needs to end.  Why is it that Africa's, home of some of the poorest countries in the world, is likely to see a major increase in population? In many ways it's foreign aid that's part of the problem. 
A

Montague

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Re: Inequality for All
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2013, 06:36:46 AM »
People who have multiple children they can't afford needs to end. 


As a beginning point, the U.S. Government needs to stop issuing checks for every kid the "poor" pop out. Set a limit: say, ONE.