Upperbody ideal

[Borracho]

And I do think it's interesting that people have such different standards, a guy is "supposed" to look a certain way, then there's talk about symmetry etc, but when it comes to the ideal of a girl, then the symmery issue is thrown outta the window. What if girls are the exact same way? What if they actually think an overpowering upperbody is more beautiful, sexier and wanted in a man?

If someone is doing this for the chicks then I doubt they'll last long at it. Like I said before, we all have different goals and as long as you look the way you want, at the end of the day than thats all that matters.

[McFarland]

I just thought it would be interesting to think about and discuss, it's got nothing to do with myself. I'm still a work in progress, but being tall I obviously need more legs, and especially calves, but if I somewhere down the road end up with a overpowering upper body, or at least somewhat, overpowering upperbody I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

And I do think it's interesting that people have such different standards, a guy is "supposed" to look a certain way, then there's talk about symmetry etc, but when it comes to the ideal of a girl, then the symmery issue is thrown outta the window. What if girls are the exact same way? What if they actually think an overpowering upperbody is more beautiful, sexier and wanted in a man?

Like I said, based on what you do, and what you're inherently about, I don't think ANYTHING on a physique is absolutely necessary...to each his own when it comes to an individual's perfect development.  Still, individual aestheticm tends to be universally perceived.  What's the best physique?  That's debatable, and there probably isn't a universal answer that could be agreed upon.  Given the individual, however, most people can probably agree on a certain someone's best look.  No matter what the body type, however, I think a physique, properly developed and mastered, is a near-perfect reflection of it's possessor's soul.  This is why the point where an amateur turns pro is their ideal.  As history shows us, turning pro is usually means a physique's mastery, or the 1 or 2 years thereafter.  "Turning Pro" is usually the proper finish line for bodybuilding.  Insulin and drug excess are probably required to surpass these size levels.  Notice I said just size, and not conditioning.  The added size hardly ever accompanies added conditioning...there is only a sort of quality change that makes them appear just as cut as before.  After several years, though, you look back, and "no, they aren't currently just as cut as before."  Shawn Ray refused to change his significantly after doing so, and likewise, this is advisable for many, IMO.  I've gotta mention that Gary put on quite a bit of size during his career, and it fit, but only because, contrary to what I just said, Gary was still sorta thin looking the year he turned pro.  He won Nationals in 1986, standing 6'2", weighing only 210 pounds.  I think 215, fully cut, is probably the ideal for someone 6'1".   

This is a very important discussion given the current state of bodybuilding.  More time should be spent examining this shit right now, even if it means it's sitting on the fringe of "overanalyzation."   

[McFarland]

If someone is doing this for the chicks then I doubt they'll last long at it. Like I said before, we all have different goals and as long as you look the way you want, at the end of the day than thats all that matters.

Looking the way you wanna look usually means it's the way the chicks would want you to look, too.  Nietzche said life was the pursuit of beauty.  In the movie Adaptation, they stressed that the point of all life is to fuck and reproduce with something beautiful.  Humans inherently are drawn to "beauty."  That's what defines the term.  We like beautiful people.  Even celebrity fuck-ups who are beautiful are more likely to be positively portrayed by the media and embraced by the public.  Babies smile at pretty faces and cry at ugly ones.  The list goes on and on.  There are ways of making "ugly" work, but that's a whole nother conversation.     

[DIVISION]

I think 215, fully cut, is probably the ideal for someone 6'1".

.....then what is the proper ideal contest weight for someone 5'7"?

Speak on this.

Stay true, Jeffrey.





DIV

[Borracho]

Looking the way you wanna look usually means it's the way the chicks would want you to look, too.  Nietzche said life was the pursuit of beauty.  In the movie Adaptation, they stressed that the point of all life is to f**k and reproduce with something beautiful.  Humans inherently are drawn to "beauty."  That's what defines the term.  We like beautiful people.  Even celebrity f**k-ups who are beautiful are more likely to be positively portrayed by the media and embraced by the public.  Babies smile at pretty faces and cry at ugly ones.  The list goes on and on.  There are ways of making "ugly" work, but that's a whole nother conversation.     

Sure but if you got an ugly face than the perfect body won't really matter much.

[McFarland]

.....then what is the proper ideal contest weight for someone 5'7"?

Speak on this.

Stay true, Jeffrey.





DIV

This is really hard to communicate in such definite terms...but at 6'1", with the proper bone structure and conditioning, 215 seems to have a universal appeal.  You can go to the mall that way and everyone thinks it's cool.  Maybe it's because at that size you can play the bodybuilder or the extremely athletic type, depending on your choice of clothing, and you still buy off the rack.  You're more adaptable to varying environments.   

Shawn Ray was 5'7" and 215, correct?  Maybe 212?  Yeah, you probably got me in a contradiction there.  I'm stumped, because he was awesome...but maybe that's why I said "on a bodybuilding stage" in one of my posts above.  That's not the only place I think I have the best chance to excel, personally speaking, and that 6'1", 215 ideal I speak of may be significantly influenced by my own self-perception.  That's where I see myself being optimally appealing.  I'm not that "bodybuilding gifted" to ever reach much more than that, so I guess I'd BETTER like it.  But a drawback to a guy like Shawn's being 215 was that he had to play "the bodybuilder" wherever he went.  It wasn't a choice.  Sometimes you don't even wanna be associated with that.  Oh well, I'm sure he never considered it an absolute curse, regardless.  I'd like to hear his take on all this.  I'd also like to add that the height/weight curve people refer to when you're supposed to be trying to predict a physique's ideal isn't a linear one.  They say 15 pounds for every inch of height, and that's probably correct around the upper 5- to low 6- foot range, but as you deviate from that, the pounds required to look "proper" probably diminish or increase.  I think that was formulated in reference to Steve Reeve's physique.       

[McFarland]

Sure but if you got an ugly face than the perfect body won't really matter much.

I just think beauty operates successfully in many cases in and of itself.  If you're perfectly hot, you don't need much else to make it in many cases, at least in today's society.  I see alot of guys make ugly work, too, though, but it usually takes more than ugly.  Chicks dig alot of ugly guys, and we all are drawn to alot of ugly dudes.  For girls, on the other hand, that's tough.  You'd think life's gotta be fair somehow, but sometimes it's hard to see how when you look at some people.  Interesting shit. 

[DIVISION]

Looking the way you wanna look usually means it's the way the chicks would want you to look, too.  Nietzche said life was the pursuit of beauty.

You rely on Nietzche way too much, Jeffrey.

The man died with Syphilis caught from pounding whores.

This is the one you idolize?

Do you see the irony here?

There are ways of making "ugly" work, but that's a whole nother conversation.

So where do you fit in to the mix, Jeffrey?

Are you a prettyboy?

Shawn Ray was 5'7" and 215, correct?  Maybe 212?  Yeah, you probably got me in a contradiction there. But a drawback to that is that Shawn had to play "the bodybuilder" wherever he went.  It wasn't a choice.  Sometimes you don't even wanna be associated with that.  I'd like to hear his take on all this.

Knowing what I know about Shawn Ray, he didn't mind at all "playing the role" wherever he went.  It feeds his ego and need for validation.  Even if he was to get tired of the act, he still loved the way it made him feel, to have people admire him.

I suppose I don't fit inside the norm, being that I wear XXL Polo shirts and those aren't always off the rack, wear Loose fit Levis because regular size are too tight on my quads and glutes.




DIV

[WiseGuy]

These days a lot of people on the boards bash the bodybuilders of the 70's because their lower bodies wasnt as developed as their upper bodies, well who says theyre suppose to be? You make it sound like the X-form is the final say in how we look at physiques and it's the "right" way to view the human body Why's that? What gave you that idea?
Apparantely most people outside the bodybuilding scene doesnt agree, how many male models, celebrities, moviestars and so on are famous for their incredible legs and calves development? Has anyone even seen the legs of Vin Diesel? And when talking about the legs of Jean-Claude van Damme it's his flexibility and ability to kick someone in the head with a spinning kick, not the size of his quads people admire.
A lot of people, even to this day, consider Arnolds physique the best of all time, even with his legs being noticably smaller in comparison.
And if you do believe that the lower body and upper body should match, do you have that as a preference for women too? If so, better stay out of the Symmetrical Sistas thead, because none of their upper bodies match their lower bodies I can tell you that... their symmetry is seriously flawed. Or the opposite, in this day and age of silicone breasts, better make sure the tits isn't too big compared to the legs, or calves.
And one thing more, some bodyparts are for some reason, accepted to be out of proportion and bigger... arms being one of them, why's that? Is it even possible to have too big arms?

Just curious how a "standard" and an ideal comes about. From what I can tell, most people in the world doesn't agree with it.

what dumbass wants to look like a light bulb....   

those types look like idiots and they are avoiding the "real work" in the gym..   

 

[McFarland]

You rely on Nietzche way too much, Jeffrey.

The man died with Syphilis caught from pounding whores.

This is the one you idolize?

Do you see the irony here?

So where do you fit in to the mix, Jeffrey?

Are you a prettyboy?

Knowing what I know about Shawn Ray, he didn't mind at all "playing the role" wherever he went.  It feeds his ego and need for validation.  Even if he was to get tired of the act, he still loved the way it made him feel, to have people admire him.

I suppose I don't fit inside the norm, being that I wear XXL Polo shirts and those aren't always off the rack, wear Loose fit Levis because regular size are too tight on my quads and glutes.




DIV

I don't think it was syphilis that got him.  There's a theory out there that attributes his last mental changes to a sort of spiritual transition onto another plane of perception that rendered his capacity to communicate with earthly beings ineffective.  Oh wait, here it is...

The cause of Nietzsche's breakdown has been the subject of speculation and remains uncertain. An early and frequent diagnosis was a syphilitic infection; however, some of Nietzsche's symptoms were inconsistent with typical cases of syphilis. Another diagnosis was a form of brain cancer. Others suggest that Nietzsche experienced a mystical awakening, similar to ones studied by Meher Baba. While most commentators regard Nietzsche's breakdown as irrelevant to his philosophy, some, including Georges Bataille, argue that the breakdown must be considered.

DIV, it's always a love/hate thing with you, isn't it?  LOL  Speaking of contradiction, consider your handle...Division.  You embrace goth chicks that dress like they're dead, love the color "pale," and glorify Tupac's early, "tragic" demise at every given chance, yet to hear YOU tell it, you're all about living life to it's fullest, rainbows, and you're simply too strong-willed to fall prey to addiction.  Fuck physiology, you have psychology.  LOL  When talking about ME, on the other hand, you incessantly site what you've identified as MY natural tendencies to drift towards the darkside, as if it's a bad thing, and as though you want no part of it.  Lately, you're a COMPLETE contradiction, bro.  When I read your posts anymore, I assume you mean the opposite of what you say.  It's still all good, though...no love lost.  Like I said, you resent only in me what you've yet to find in yourself, but I honestly get the impression you're on your way to it, so I'm not mad.  I'd have sent you this in a PM, but damn it, you're testing me again.                  

[NarcissisticDeity]

Actually Steve Reeves addresses the ideal bodyweight for someone looking to achive a Classic Phsyique and he had a baseline

height

5'5" - 160lbs
5'6" - 165lbs
5'7" - 170lbs
5'8" - 175lbs
5'9" - 180lbs
5'10" - 185lbs
5'11" - 190lbs
6'0" - jumps to 200lbs and it now becomes 10lbs for every inch over six feet

and here is the proportions chart for a Classic Phsyique

Arm Size = 252% of wrist size
Calf Size = 192% of ankle size
Neck Size = 79% of head size
Chest Size = 148% of pelvis size
Waist size = 86% of pelvis size
Thigh size = 175% of knee size
weight = 295% of height

Reeves also followed the Greek Ideal of the neck , arms and calf size being exactly the same size , but we're all not born perfect like him.

[Hulkster]

ND, please tell me you didn't have all of that memorized!

[DIVISION]

DIV, it's always a love/hate thing with you, isn't it?  LOL  Speaking of contradiction, consider your handle...Division.  You embrace goth chicks that dress like they're dead, love the color "pale," and glorify Tupac's early, "tragic" demise at every given chance, yet to hear YOU tell it, you're all about living life to it's fullest, rainbows, and you're simply too strong-willed to fall prey to addiction.  f**k physiology, you have psychology.  LOL  When talking about ME, on the other hand, you incessantly site what you've identified as MY natural tendencies to drift towards the darkside, as if it's a bad thing, and as though you want no part of it.  Lately, you're a COMPLETE contradiction, bro.  When I read your posts anymore, I assume you mean the opposite of what you say.  It's still all good, though...no love lost.  Like I said, you resent only in me what you've yet to find in yourself, but I honestly get the impression you're on your way to it, so I'm not mad.  I'd have sent you this in a PM, but damn it, you're testing me again.   

Jeffrey,

You internalize what I say too deeply.  Understand that I neither "love" nore "hate" you.  To me you're an interesting character, but that's the extent of it.  Entertainment.  To be accurate I am both the "good" and "bad" in society and I know this about myself.  I'm not a pessimistic, nor an optomist, merely a realist.

I don't judge myself against humanistic morality........I make my own rules.

I am a stark contradiction.......a dichotomy, both sides in defiance of each other.

I resent you, Jeff, because you are more intelligent that the decisions you make......in essence you dumb yourself down with your choices.

That's it.

(on a side note: pale bitches make the world go round)




DIV

[Double XL]

Tren is less androgenic than Halotestin, but three times as anabolic as Testosterone.

Good shit.




DIV

ACTUALLY TREN IS 5 TIMES AS ANABOLIC AS TESTOSTERONE.  WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFO FROM?

TREN HAS A 500:500 RATIO TEST HAS A 100:100 RATIO, DO SOME MORE RESEACH BEFORE YOU GO SPOUTING OFF MORE UNINFORMED BULLSHIT DIV.

[DIVISION]

ACTUALLY TREN IS 5 TIMES AS ANABOLIC AS TESTOSTERONE.  WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFO FROM?

TREN HAS A 500:500 RATIO TEST HAS A 100:100 RATIO, DO SOME MORE RESEACH BEFORE YOU GO SPOUTING OFF MORE UNINFORMED BULLSHIT DIV.

Okay, big guy.......

How about you contribute to the Steroids Info & Hardcore
Forum, since you have this plethora of AAS knowledge?

Since you've been here you haven't given anyone advice over there, which is probably a good thing because I seriously doubt your ability to build a halfway decent AAS cycle for a newbie, much less an experienced veteran.

Prove me wrong.




DIV

[brianX]

I don't know why some bodybuilders are so obsessed with leg size. Perhaps they are trying to make up for inferior upper body genetics. Legs are the one bodypart in which size and strength have little to do with each other. Just because you have big legs doesn't mean you are any stronger or more "hardcore" than someone with smaller legs. One can build massive legs by doing nothing but high rep leg presses and leg curls.

It is much harder to build a well developed and balanced upper body. There are far more muscles groups to train (arms, shoulders, chest, and back) when compared to the lower body.

The fact is, really big legs look stupid to most people. They can also be a real impediment when walking or hiking long distances.

[Double XL]

I don't know why some bodybuilders are so obsessed with leg size. Perhaps they are trying to make up for inferior upper body genetics. Legs are the one bodypart in which size and strength have little to do with each other. Just because you have big legs doesn't mean you are any stronger or more "hardcore" than someone with smaller legs. One can build massive legs by doing nothing but high rep leg presses and leg curls.

It is much harder to build a well developed and balanced upper body. There are far more muscles groups to train (arms, shoulders, chest, and back) when compared to the lower body.

The fact is, really big legs look stupid to most people. They can also be a real impediment when walking or hiking long distances.

I DONT KNOW MANY GUYS WHO HAVE BUILT BIG LEGS WITH LIGHT WEIGHTS.

[sarcasm]

These days a lot of people on the boards bash the bodybuilders of the 70's because their lower bodies wasnt as developed as their upper bodies, well who says theyre suppose to be? You make it sound like the X-form is the final say in how we look at physiques and it's the "right" way to view the human body Why's that? What gave you that idea?
Apparantely most people outside the bodybuilding scene doesnt agree, how many male models, celebrities, moviestars and so on are famous for their incredible legs and calves development? Has anyone even seen the legs of Vin Diesel? And when talking about the legs of Jean-Claude van Damme it's his flexibility and ability to kick someone in the head with a spinning kick, not the size of his quads people admire.
A lot of people, even to this day, consider Arnolds physique the best of all time, even with his legs being noticably smaller in comparison.
And if you do believe that the lower body and upper body should match, do you have that as a preference for women too? If so, better stay out of the Symmetrical Sistas thead, because none of their upper bodies match their lower bodies I can tell you that... their symmetry is seriously flawed. Or the opposite, in this day and age of silicone breasts, better make sure the tits isn't too big compared to the legs, or calves.
And one thing more, some bodyparts are for some reason, accepted to be out of proportion and bigger... arms being one of them, why's that? Is it even possible to have too big arms?

Just curious how a "standard" and an ideal comes about. From what I can tell, most people in the world doesn't agree with it.

that post is gayer than a weekend getaway at the Neverland Ranch.

[Double XL]

OH AND LEGS ARE ALOT HARDER TO TRAIN "BRIAN X"  IF YOU HAVENT FOUND THAT TO BE THE CASE THEN YOU ARENT TRAINING HARD ENOUGH, COMING FROM A PUSSY LIKE YOU I WOULDNT BE SUPRISED.

[DIVISION]

HAHAHA.  THIS IS COMING FROM A GUY WHO MAKES UP SHITTY FUCKING CYCLES, YOU DONT NOW SHIT BUDDY.   IVE SEEN WHAT YOU POST, YOU'RE A JOKE.

If you don't agree with my cycles, then by all means..........post up your opinions instead of lurking in the background.

All this from a gimmick account.........who are you exactly?




DIV

[Double XL]

If you don't agree with my cycles, then by all means..........post up your opinions instead of lurking in the background.

All this from a gimmick account.........who are you exactly?




DIV

GIMMICK ACCOUNT?  HAHAHA!!!

[sarcasm]

If you don't agree with my cycles, then by all means..........post up your opinions instead of lurking in the background.

All this from a gimmick account.........who are you exactly?




DIV

just ignore this tool div, you know your shit on AAS that's a well known fact, double XL, hurricane beef, wizard of oz, paxil rose, cutri is a fag.

[Double XL]

DIV POST UP YOUR RECOMENDATIONS FOR A NEWBIE CYCLE, ILL CRITIQUE IT. 

[McFarland]

OK, I'd forgotten about how tren's such a strong androgenic...so it's not just "androgenic" drugs that result in that look...my mistake again...but there's definitely something about test and anadrol in particular that give that look.  It's the same thing that results in purple fucking patches on your skin.  Ever see that shit on those offseason juice monkeys?  I'd say it's the increase in red blood cell count and consequent blood volumization that results from androgens, but again, tren's an androgen that doesn't do all that.  In definitely increases vascularity, but not all those spider veins and stuff.  The veins that have no clear beginning or end in the offseason.  It's not the androgen in drugs like test and anadrol, it's something yet unidentified.  That's what I think.  Maybe it's the water retention in addition to the blood volume increase.     

[McFarland]

that post is gayer than a weekend getaway at the Neverland Ranch.

That sounds like something Adonis would say.