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Author Topic: Foreigners are dumping Treasuries......  (Read 5718 times)
syntaxmachine
Getbig IV
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« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2013, 05:09:16 AM »

I passed on credible information IMO, your choice to accept it or not. If you find it suspect, I don't care, if you find it useful...great, but I still don't care.

And I don't care that you don't care if I find the information useful for not, and surely you don't care that I don't care that you don't care if I find the information useful or not, and so on.

The information you communicated would've lost people a good chunk of change if they took it seriously (Treasuries continue to rise). I don't mean to attack you personally; I'm simply emphasizing that the economic gurus on here ought to put their money on the line to test their overconfident claims rather than merely preach to all of us ad infinitum.
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OzmO
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Take Money Out of Politics!


« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2013, 09:05:58 AM »

YOU ARE A LIAR OzmO!!!

And when called out on your lies, like I did in the previous post, the one wherein I stated the clip had absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH MY BUSINESS, but instead supported Teddy's statement that they broke the interest default swap mechanisms, what do you do? ...like the tin-pot little dictator you are, ...you deleted the post, then moved the entire thread to a different board!

Tell us again, how that clip was about my business, ...go on, I dare you to even try... You lying POS!

How am I lying?   I've told you anything that relates to gold or your business will get moved or remove.  Which in my mind can include anything that mentions gold or the value oft he dollar.

Thats the way it is.  Stop trying to peddle your dumb bull shit    Deal with it.

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« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2013, 01:54:01 AM »

How am I lying?   I've told you anything that relates to gold or your business will get moved or remove.


The clip was NOT about Gold. It was in support of Teddy's assertion that they broke the bond interest rate swaps. These are paper derivative instruments, ...and my business has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with paper derivatives. I can't stand paper derivatives and want nothing to do with them at all. Been saying that since 2008.

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Which in my mind can include anything that mentions gold or the value oft he dollar.

That's the operative phrase now isn't it? ...which in your mind can include anything.

You really are a pathetic, ignorant, delusional, lying, megalomaniacal piece of shit!

So I suppose if I said I was vegan and didn't eat meat, making a post about a recent outbreak of mad cow disease on a cattle ranch would be considered "spamming about my business"?

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Thats the way it is.  Stop trying to peddle your dumb bull shit    Deal with it.

Now tell us how my announcement about the sudden Panamanian bank & ATM closures was spam about my business?

The only one peddling dumb bull shit here is you!

You're like the morons currently at the helm of your economy. You have the financial IQ of a flea, yet think you're even qualified to regulate areas that are so very clearly far above your own level of comprehension it's pathetic. Pull your head from up out of your anatomy OzmO. Not so you can see the light, ...nah, to free up space for that big red, white, and blue dick that's getting lubed up to jam itself into your asshole as I type.

Dr. Jim Willie - Big Banks in danger of Imploding

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pny7v62YSE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pny7v62YSE</a>
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OzmO
Getbig V
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Take Money Out of Politics!


« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2013, 11:53:53 AM »


The clip was NOT about Gold. It was in support of Teddy's assertion that they broke the bond interest rate swaps. These are paper derivative instruments, ...and my business has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with paper derivatives. I can't stand paper derivatives and want nothing to do with them at all. Been saying that since 2008.


Doesn't matter.  You have zero credibility.  I see anything you post that has to do with money as bate to start a dialog about your business.  You have done this in the past and have earn warned about doing it.  Therefore your crap gets moved or removed.  You shouldn't cry too much anyway.  You got free reign on this board to pimp your BS as often as you like.  And just so you know if modded it I wouldn't yank it.

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That's the operative phrase now isn't it? ...which in your mind can include anything.

You really are a pathetic, ignorant, delusional, lying, megalomaniacal piece of shit!

So I suppose if I said I was vegan and didn't eat meat, making a post about a recent outbreak of mad cow disease on a cattle ranch would be considered "spamming about my business"?

Haven't lied to you so I don't what you are referring to.  But what ever makes your looney ass feel better is ok with me.  Still got scabs on your knees from praying for Americas demise night after night?

Let so me ask you..... Are you so fucking  stupid that you can't even get your own analogy right?  If you wre a vegan posting about bad meat I wouldn't yank your posts.  However, if you were a vegan who was a pathetically desperate looney bitch that had to fish for clients for her network marketing business that dealt in vegan products on a forum, than yes I would yank your posts if you started posting about meat just as any time you posts about money on a politics forum I yank them.  

Get it now?   Do I have draw you pictures?

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Now tell us how my announcement about the sudden Panamanian bank & ATM closures was spam about my business?

The only one peddling dumb bull shit here is you!

I have told you before and I will tell you again.  Anything you post that have to do with finances will either get put here or removed.  

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You're like the morons currently at the helm of your economy. You have the financial IQ of a flea, yet think you're even qualified to regulate areas that are so very clearly far above your own level of comprehension it's pathetic. Pull your head from up out of your anatomy OzmO. Not so you can see the light, ...nah, to free up space for that big red, white, and blue dick that's getting lubed up to jam itself into your asshole as I type.

We'll I can hope that one day I can be like you who advises billionaires and talks about that on bodybuilding forums.  But then I would have to be some witless bitch who is easily the stupidest person here, except for maybe coach.  But it's close.

As for your stupid fear propaganda vid....... Roll Eyes

Buy aloe for those scabs
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Getbig V
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« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2013, 05:13:15 AM »

Doesn't matter.  You have zero credibility.  I see anything you post that has to do with money as bate to start a dialog about your business.  You have done this in the past and have earn warned about doing it.  Therefore your crap gets moved or removed.  You shouldn't cry too much anyway.  You got free reign on this board to pimp your BS as often as you like.  And just so you know if modded it I wouldn't yank it.

Haven't lied to you so I don't what you are referring to.  But what ever makes your looney ass feel better is ok with me.  Still got scabs on your knees from praying for Americas demise night after night?

Let so me ask you..... Are you so fucking  stupid that you can't even get your own analogy right?  If you wre a vegan posting about bad meat I wouldn't yank your posts.  However, if you were a vegan who was a pathetically desperate looney bitch that had to fish for clients for her network marketing business that dealt in vegan products on a forum, than yes I would yank your posts if you started posting about meat just as any time you posts about money on a politics forum I yank them.  

Get it now?   Do I have draw you pictures?

You seem to be forgetting a crucial factor... Karatbars is NOT a network marketing business. It's not an MLM.
Karatbars International is an e-commerce business with an affiliate referral rewards program. I don't sell gold, I buy it. Karatbars operates under the international Bullion Laws as set forth by the World Trade Organization under the harmonious tax code. We're not an MLM.

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I have told you before and I will tell you again.  Anything you post that have to do with finances will either get put here or removed.  

We'll I can hope that one day I can be like you who advises billionaires and talks about that on bodybuilding forums.  But then I would have to be some witless bitch who is easily the stupidest person here, except for maybe coach.  But it's close.

As for your stupid fear propaganda vid....... Roll Eyes



Hahaha. Melt much?

I don't have to pray for America's demise. With a country full of such ignorance and hubris as you so aptly demonstrate... the country's demise is guaranteed. Idiot!

Quote
Buy aloe for those scabs

Buy your own damn face cream!

ps: You are a witless bitch!
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OzmO
Getbig V
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Take Money Out of Politics!


« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2013, 08:29:03 AM »

You seem to be forgetting a crucial factor... Karatbars is NOT a network marketing business. It's not an MLM.
Karatbars International is an e-commerce business with an affiliate referral rewards program. I don't sell gold, I buy it. Karatbars operates under the international Bullion Laws as set forth by the World Trade Organization under the harmonious tax code. We're not an MLM.

ROTFLMAO  sure what ever you say..... Roll Eyes


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Hahaha. Melt much?

Nope, ridicule you often though.
Quote
I don't have to pray for America's demise. With a country full of such ignorance and hubris as you so aptly demonstrate... the country's demise is guaranteed. Idiot!

Buy your own damn face cream!

ps: You are a witless bitch!
[/quote]

Just know, as you already do, that every day you wake up America isn't going anywhere and you are joined by millions around the world who will never realize their dream in there life times.  So get some knee pads.

Quote
Haven't lied to you so I don't what you are referring to.

bump[

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avxo
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« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2013, 05:03:34 AM »

You seem to be forgetting a crucial factor... Karatbars is NOT a network marketing business. It's not an MLM.

It it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then you can be pretty confident that it's not a potato but is, in fact, a duck. In other words, if Karatbars isn't an MLM business then your behavior on here is a blemish on their reputation because you sure act like they are.


Karatbars International is an e-commerce business with an affiliate referral rewards program.

Oh... I see. An "affiliate referral rewards program." Can you tell us the difference between said program and an MLM?


I don't sell gold, I buy it. Karatbars operates under the international Bullion Laws as set forth by the World Trade Organization under the harmonious tax code. We're not an MLM.

You don't sell it? Whose phone rings when I call the "Karatbars Account Rep" phone number listed right under your avatar?
 

I don't have to pray for America's demise. With a country full of such ignorance and hubris as you so aptly demonstrate... the country's demise is guaranteed. Idiot!

Good thing we'll all be able to continue living by carrying dozens of little plastic cards around and exchanging them with each other for goods and services. "1 card twopence guv'nor" the merchants will say, they will! Any day now...


ps: You are a witless bitch!

Man, when I saw there was postscript I was all excited. I knew it'd be a zinger, but this... this is just golden! Wink
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24KT
Getbig V
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« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2013, 10:14:21 PM »

It it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then you can be pretty confident that it's not a potato but is, in fact, a duck. In other words, if Karatbars isn't an MLM business then your behavior on here is a blemish on their reputation because you sure act like they are.


Oh... I see. An "affiliate referral rewards program." Can you tell us the difference between said program and an MLM?


You don't sell it? Whose phone rings when I call the "Karatbars Account Rep" phone number listed right under your avatar?
 

Good thing we'll all be able to continue living by carrying dozens of little plastic cards around and exchanging them with each other for goods and services. "1 card twopence guv'nor" the merchants will say, they will! Any day now...


Man, when I saw there was postscript I was all excited. I knew it'd be a zinger, but this... this is just golden! Wink

So I suppose, Amazon.com is an MLM too huh?    Roll Eyes
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Getbig V
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« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2013, 11:06:39 PM »

So I suppose, Amazon.com is an MLM too huh?    Roll Eyes

The structure of the Amazon affiliates rewards program is well understood. The structure of the affiliate rewards program at Karatbars, not so much. I asked you to explain how it differs from an MLM, you declined and deflected. I think that speaks volumes.

I'll try again:

When I call the phone number under your avatar whose phone rings?

When I buy Karatbars, do you get a percentage and/or commission?

When I introduce someone to Karatbars and they make a purchase do you get a percentage or commission if you introduced me?

In your capacity as an account rep is your goal to make a sale or to help the person on the other end get the best possible deal?

Do you explain the risks of investing in gold to first-time buyers? Can you tell us some of those risks?

Do you explain how purchasing gold a gram at a time is significantly more expensive? Can you tell us why buying it in tiny amounts make sense?

Do you evaluate the needs of the person on the other end of the phone to determine if purchasing gold is in their best interest?
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Getbig V
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« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2013, 08:52:13 AM »

The structure of the Amazon affiliates rewards program is well understood. The structure of the affiliate rewards program at Karatbars, not so much. I asked you to explain how it differs from an MLM, you declined and deflected. I think that speaks volumes.

Yes, it said I had no intention of laying out the details of the affiliate program on the political board. Those who truly want to understand the affiliate rewards program are more than welcome to contact me to get the facts, or to attend a LIVE webcast to get the information first hand. Barring any technological glitches, our LIVE webinars take place daily at 12 noon EDT as well as 9PM EDT.


In a nutshell, MLMs pay people to sell a product or service for money. You have to spend money to make money.

Karatbars Affiliate referral rewards program pays people to save money. No spending, simply saving and getting paid to do so.


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I'll try again:

When I call the phone number under your avatar whose phone rings?


Nobody's phone rings. It is a 24/7 hotline number for dispensing information.


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When I buy Karatbars, do you get a percentage and/or commission?

That is a very vague, and misguided question. Akin to a stab in the dark, based on a pre-conceived notion. Mind you, I'm not saying it is not a logical conclusion to come to, it is, however, you lack sufficient information about Karatbars to ask more relevant questions

The Karatbars Affiliate Rewards Plan has 2 separate pay structures based upon "POINTS" & "UNITS".All Karatbars products carry both points & units

The Unilevel pay structure is FREE, and is based on points, which determine an affiliates RANK. Every 2 euro purchased on products = 1 point. Points add up in different ways to give you "RANK" overrides. It pays monthly. Points are accrued from the 11th - the 10th of the following month, tabulated on the 15th, and paid out on the 1st of each month. It pays monthly, and is considered the "GRAVY".

Our Dual System is a completely optional program within Karatbars, and is based on "UNITS" which determine 'cycles'

Cycles pay weekly, for cycles earned on the development of two teams.

This is the FRONT END Money for those serious about making money with Karatbars. It is the MEAT & POTATOES, and it pays weekly.

Now... Let me Explain UNITS...

UNITS are an "Intrinsic Shared Profit Margin" (ISPM) assigned to ANY product... "in the system"

Different products have different ISPM "UNITS", based on the cost to produce, other intrinsic & specific product properties... like regulations, locations... etc.,

These are profit margins for a healthy expanding company without debt... and allotted profit to be shared for rewarding marketing. Marketing is what we affiliates do. The company doesn't advertise on TV, newspapers, radio etc., Instead, funds that would otherwise be allotted to those activities are instead shared with affiliates.

ie: a 1 gram gold bar carries a 1 UNIT ISPM

*Gold anywhere has 80% cost & 20% profit if obtained from GDL source (LBMA*) big bars into little bars. A bottle of juice is 20% cost and 80% profit margin (but it isn't an asset is it?)

1 Bottle of Karatbars Champagne carries 4 UNITS ISPM. Moet makes the product. Karatbars doesn't have any manufacturing costs, therefore, Karatbars passes back a larger ISPM from a bottle of bubbly, than from a gram of gold.




That is why any other company trying to copycat what we do, will have the same challenge to deliver profit within the system... and deliver what Karatbars already does... without debt.

This give you a better idea of the system we have... We are GOLD as Money... in a developing system.

Which means.... we have the ability to carry and make available ANY Premium Product added to the system... adding another company's products that turns a discount into POINTS and UNITS (ISPM) that create more profit in cash... and/or LEVERAGE an Affiliate's Ability to Acquire GOLD from the Karatbars System.

ISPM: 5 Grams of 24KT 999.9 pure Gold.

A) ONE 5 gram gold bar carries 3 UNITS
   Produce one card... discount the price to buyer... 10 euros per gram... discount cuts ISPM

B) FIVE 1 Gram Karatbars carries 5 UNITS
   More costs, as it is more labour intensive to produce 5 cards... Each ISPM is the same.

Every Friday morning cycles are converted to cash payments onto a Private issue Global Debit Mastercard (which was recently voted "Best Designed MasterCard of the Year" in Europe, because of it's unique features & capabilities)



This MasterCard can be used to make purchases and is accepted at millions of location worldwide. I can stick it in an ATM in Tokyo and get yen, or an ATM in London and get pounds. It is also linked to our gold accounts, and can be used to easily liquidate gold in our accounts, either by converting the gold to cash, or use it to make an electronic transaction in gold with a merchant or supplier who accepts gold in exchange for goods and/or services. They are the prettiest cards I have in my wallet, ...and they're my favourite because they're the only credit cards that don't send me a bill. Quite the opposite infact. Every 1st of the month, as well as every Friday morning, I wake up to find the card loaded with money. I LOVE IT!

 
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When I introduce someone to Karatbars and they make a purchase do you get a percentage or commission if you introduced me?

Please see clarification above, but yes, points & units would accrue for everyone through ISPM

Quote
In your capacity as an account rep is your goal to make a sale or to help the person on the other end get the best possible deal?

Account Rep is not really a formal title we have at Karatbars, it is simply what I chose to refer to myself as in the beginning when we first got started, and were helping people open up their accounts. Our web platform has gotten far more user friendly over the years, ...and it's translation into English as well as multiple other languages has helped significantly. As far as formal titles within the Karatbars affiliate program, my status in the optional Dual System is "VIP" and my rank in the Unilevel is "GOLD". As to what I do... well, I do both. I share the Karatbars program with others, and I help them to get the best possible deal. Our program was designed for the thriftiest of gold buyers. Most often, those who are open minded enough to allow me to take them through the proper process of introduction, usually conclude that Karatbars is the best possible deal (for their particular situation). There have been a few to whom I've shown Karatbars, who have concluded that they would prefer to continue acquiring 400oz bars or acquire gold by buying a percentage of an actual gold mine itself, ...but they are just a few of my EXTREMELY high net worth friends, who are looking at GOLD as a speculate investment. When viewing what Karatbars has to offer, as GOLD as money, ...those who get it all agree it is simply brilliant! And a few have chosen to take advantage of acquiring the smaller weights as a customer, without participating in the optional affiliate portion, ...and that's perfectly fine as well. We've seen many who have made Karatbars accounts available to their employees as part of an employee benefits package with the employer making regular contributions to the gold savings accounts of their employees.

Then too, there are the retailers who have chosen to purchase large quantities of Karatbars gold for retailing in their own stores. They understand how Karatbars can leverage their abilities to expand their own distribution, effectively empowering them to open up additional outlets throughout 89 countries worldwide & growing, without the limitations imposed by traditional brick and mortar locations.

From Valentine's Day,...



to Birthdays,...




to Graduations,... to Weddings,... Anniversaries,... to even New Arrivals to the family...




Christmas etc., etc.,





or even just to say Thank You...



There is never a shortage of gift giving opportunities year round, ...and Karatbars provides a variety of cards for all such occasions occasions.

Quote
Do you explain the risks of investing in gold to first-time buyers? Can you tell us some of those risks?

At Karatbars, we do not "INVEST" in Gold. As affiliates, We also do NOT give investment advice. There are many within our Karatbars family who are indeed licensed professionals who do that sort of thing for a living. We also have a wide range of brokers who previously could not deal with clients who didn't have at least $50K - $100K to buy gold. They are extremely happy about Karatbars because now they do not have to turn those clients away. They are also quite happy to share their wealth of knowledge within our family. Some of the most financially literate individuals reside within our ranks. Many of whom have been buying gold for years! They were absolutely exstatic upon discovering karatbars, because the smaller, transaction friendly weights were quite difficult to find.

Up until Karatbars, the average individual had no place to turn if they wanted to acquire currency grade gold. They were shut out of the market by the extremely wealthy and the elite because this particular asset class came in large bars that few could afford. If the average middle income earner wanted to purchase gold, the y had to settle for an inferior asset class of gold. They were relegated to buying gold coins or gold jewelry if they wanted to buy gold. Karatbars now makes the very same quality & purity of this highest asset class of gold available to the average individual.

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Do you explain how purchasing gold a gram at a time is significantly more expensive? Can you tell us why buying it in tiny amounts make sense?

As with most any item in the marketplace, there is always a discount on 'bulk' purchases. It is no different than when acquires 1 bar of soap, ...or a case of 100 bars from Costco. Bulk purchases are always more economical.

The same can be said for GOLD as well. Producing smaller units is far more labour intensive to produce. It costs far more to produce 1,000 one gram units, than it does to produce a one kilo bar. Each individual unit must be stamped, weighed, assayed, numbered etc., a thousand times over. As such, the samller units are ALWAYS sold at a premium wherever you go. The good news is, that if those smaller, transaction friendly weights are ever re-sold, the premium stays attached. You may find some places that advertise a lower price for smaller weight gold, however, what you will invariably find is that there are minimum purchase requirements. Others may advertise a lower price per gram, however, it will be based on a minimum purchase of 1,000 grams, and what you're actually purchasing is a 1 kilo bar, not 1,000 1 gram units. Most often, what you will find is that they are SOLD OUT or UNAVAILABLE.

Smaller units allow for far more flexibility. Smaller weights are transaction friendly, and can provide a practical means of exchange should one find themselves unable to get access to paper currency, ...or perhaps in the event that paper currency is  not accepted. Everyday, across the planet, more & more people are saying NO debt based forms of currency, and prefer to store their wealth, and preserve the value of their labour in tangible, flexible, hard assets, that are universally accepted, and NOT subject to counter party risk, or the whimsical experimentation of modern fiscal policies.

 
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Do you evaluate the needs of the person on the other end of the phone to determine if purchasing gold is in their best interest?

No, I deal with those who have already decided they want to acquire gold, or who perhaps may be unsure if Karatbars gold is right for them. I don't "sell them" on Karatbars, I answer any questions they may have about Karatbars, and allow them to make up their own minds. I simply show them the system we have in place to acquire gold, ...one that could empower them to acquire far more gold through our system, than they could ever buy out of their own pockets, and allow them to make their own decisions. People know their own particular situations best, ...and are not always forthcoming with personal information. Their personal financial situations are their own business, and I do not pry. If they want to be forthcoming, they can be, but I do not pry. We're talking about a purchase amount that can be as little as 50 euro at a time. People spend more than that on a night out in a restaurant. I hardly think a finacial evaluation is called for. I did share Karatbars with an individual in North Carolina who just last night indicated to me he wanted to roll his 401K or IRA into Karatbars. I made it clear I don't provide tax advise or financial planning advice, but I did refer him to a licensed professional who does specialize in managing the IRA's of those who want to roll them over into GOLD.

I genuinely believe that Karatbars offers the most good to the most amount of people.

Unlike many programs out there that require you to sell a juice, lotion, potion or pill... don't get me wrong... I'm not saying those products are not good for you. There are plenty of GREAT lotions, potions & pills out there. I've sold them, I've taken them, I will continue to take them etc., however, Karatbars makes available worldwide, a product that I believe everyone should have,.. one that does not have a limited shelf life, does not have an expiry date, and does not have to pass through your kidneys. At the end of the day, ...the worst thing that can happen, is someone ends up with an asset on their balance sheet.... an asset that is universally accepted, and recognized as good for settlement of debt. IMO, physical, certificated, 24KT LBMA Karatbars Gold is the best quality collateral one can have on their financial statement.

Karatbars is our trademarked brand name. It basically means hologrammed gold. It is to gold, what kleenex is to tissue.

Years ago, when one acquired currency grade physical bullion, it had to be kept in a vault. That was the only way to ensure it's authenticity. You didn't dare take it out of the vault, because the moment you did, it lost it's certification, and guarantee of weight & purity. There was no way for someone to ensure that what they possessed wasn't counterfeit. therefore, your gold remained vaulted, and if you wanted to trade it, you still could... it simply meant that a custodian took a few bars off one pile of gold, and transfered those bars to a nother pile of gold, ...all within the same vault. You never had physical possession of your gold, and were required to pay storage fees.

For years, bullion bankers have often leased out or even sold other people's gold in the assumption that they would not request delivery. They were quite wrong. Many people have been requesting delivery and many bullion bankers have found themselves in a tremendous squeeze trying to deliver gold than is no longer there, ...gold that they have fraudulently conveyed elsewhere, yet continue to charge storage fees for. Enter Union Banque Suisse (UBS). They introduced to the world a hologram embedded in their gold bars. These holograms make it readily apparent if the bar has been tampered with in any way. For the first time, an individual could purchase this asset class of gold, and actually take it out of the vault into their own possession, secure in the knowledge that it is still guaranteed for weight & purity, as long as the hologram was still intact. UBS called this particular gold bullion bar a kinebar, and it was a game-changer the world over, as far as taking physical possession of currency grade GDL gold bullion bars. As we started to introduce our gold bars around the world, with the same technology embedded (hologrammed), we found ourselves frequently refering to UBS' product as the benchmark or pinnacle. We realized we were inadvertently promoting someone else's brand. And while they may have pioneered the concept, we were the largest producers of 1 gram units in the world. We should be branding ourselves, not someone else. Because we couldn't trademark our initial KB, we instead trademarked the name Karatbars to describe the hologram embedded GDL gold we produce.

There are those who "get it" right away, ...and there are those who may take a little longer to see and understand what we're all about. That's OK, not everyone has vision. Those who do are welcome to join me. Those who do not, ...well, I'll simply wish them luck in their pursuits whatever that may be.

I truly hope this is the last post on the matter. Any other questions or queries should be sent via inbox.

ps: I hope you're happy now that you have subverted yet another thread OFF-TOPIC.  Sad

pps: Of the 11 Original Founders of Microsoft, not all of them had a true vision of what they had their hands on. Out of the Eleven, 7 of them, with vested interests, quit. Infact, one of the individuals when he found out what he had walked away from, ...was so distraught, he committed suicide. Those of us in Karatbars view ourselves as part of the 4 with Vision, not part of the 7 without it.


Webinar recorded Monday, October 28, 2013 at noon EDT

http://www.anymeeting.com/WebConference-beta/RecordingDefault.aspx?c_psrid=EE57DB848646

To open your FREE Karatbars Account, simply go to www.ViewTheInfo.com

  


* The Eleven-VTI.jpg (59.65 KB, 787x446 - viewed 149 times.)
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Getbig V
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« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2013, 04:37:18 PM »

I'm about to board a flight so I don't have time to answer that entire wall of text (and pictures) right now, but I will write something up during my 10-hour flight and post it. Just one comment:

You repeat the bullshit about "currency-grade gold". There's no such thing; it's a term you made up, like the words "funderful", "supercalifragilisticexpi alidocious" or the tagline "when you're here you're family" cooked by an intern at the Olive Garden marketing department.

Clearly it doesn't mean 999.9 gold since that is readily available in a variety of form factors and weights: from nice Canadian Maples to Credit Suisse bars, and from one gram to over ten troy ounces.

Surely you don't mean that Karatbars are used by any currency issuers to back their currencies, if for no other reason, Karatbars need a lot of space compared to bars. In another thread, I wrote:

Quote
[] Karatbars are a bad investment purely because of the storage volume required compared to traditional gold form factors. Let's review:

Assuming a gold bar is roughly the size of a credit card, it's dimensions are 85.60mm * 53.98mm * 0.76mm, giving us a volume of approximately 3.51cm3 per gram of gold. You need approximately 31 such card for one troy ounce of gold, occupying a volume of 108.8cm3.

Compare that to a single 1oz Canadian golden maple leaf coin, which has a diameter of 33mm and a height of 2.79mm, giving us a total volume of 1.972cm3.

In other words, purely as a function of the amount of storage required, you can fit 50 times more gold in the same space by buying 1oz Canadian maple leafs.

This "currency grade gold" nonsense you peddle is meaningless drivel. The same kind of drivel that all snakeoil salesmen and marketers utter. And they serve the same purpose: to convince the gullible. That schtick won't work with me.

If I'm wrong and the phrase has some sensible meaning that you can clarify for us, then please, by all means do: what exactly does "currency grade gold" mean?
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« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2013, 09:13:45 AM »

I'm about to board a flight so I don't have time to answer that entire wall of text (and pictures) right now, but I will write something up during my 10-hour flight and post it. Just one comment:

Feel free to send it to my inbox when you do.

Quote
You repeat the bullshit about "currency-grade gold". There's no such thing; it's a term you made up, like the words "funderful", "supercalifragilisticexpi alidocious" or the tagline "when you're here you're family" cooked by an intern at the Olive Garden marketing department.

Clearly it doesn't mean 999.9 gold since that is readily available in a variety of form factors and weights: from nice Canadian Maples to Credit Suisse bars, and from one gram to over ten troy ounces.

Surely you don't mean that Karatbars are used by any currency issuers to back their currencies, if for no other reason, Karatbars need a lot of space compared to bars. In another thread, I wrote:

This "currency grade gold" nonsense you peddle is meaningless drivel. The same kind of drivel that all snakeoil salesmen and marketers utter. And they serve the same purpose: to convince the gullible. That schtick won't work with me.

If I'm wrong and the phrase has some sensible meaning that you can clarify for us, then please, by all means do: what exactly does "currency grade gold" mean?

It means:

GOLD as MONEY

NOT gold as a speculative investment to buy low then sell high, ...but gold as money,
...as a means of exchange for goods & services within the context of an honest, sound money system.
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« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2013, 10:00:48 AM »

Feel free to send it to my inbox when you do.

I'll post here, if you don't mind. I'm allergic to private messages.



It means:

GOLD as MONEY

NOT gold as a speculative investment to buy low then sell high, ...but gold as money,
...as a means of exchange for goods & services within the context of an honest, sound money system.

At current prices, 31.1034768 grams of gold (1 troy ounce) hovers around 1,340 USD. Let's just say 31 grams are worth, oh... I don't know... $1,302 seems like a nice number, no? That means that a single 1 gram gold bar card is worth... $42 (hey! Look at that, it's the answer to life! Good thing I picked $1,302 as the price earlier, no?)

So the smallest amount I can possibly pay by swapping things in 1-gram gold Karatbars is $42. If I want to get less, I need to rely on fiat currencies for change - the very thing you dislike and you believe is about to collapse. And if I want to buy a $50,000 car, even with the fancy big-spender 5-gram Karatbars, I need to carry around 238 Karatbars. That doesn't sound too bad, does it?

Well, assuming they are the same physical size as a 1-gram gold bar (and why shouldn't they be? A gold bar is well over 90% plastic, so plenty of space left over for some gold), they each occupy 108.8cm3. Let's just be nice and drop that 0.8 out of there. So in order to buy a car I need to haul 238 of those things, which would occupy a total volume of [238 Karatbars * (108.8cm3/gold bar)] = 25785.714cm3. That seems reasonable, no? Well... not so much. That's 25.785 liters. That's the same volume that 500 large eggs would occupy. That's approximately 872 fluid ounces.

Given the silliness of carrying around and trading a ton of little plastic cards (or bills and coins for that matter) and it's inability to be cleanly divided into small enough units to make it usable Karatbars simply isn't a practical as a medium of exchange. But if that wasn't all, Karatbars also doesn't fulfill one other important requirement that we have for "money":

It is not readily and widely accepted. Sure, you say there's a list businesses coming, a list which will trade little plastic cards for goods and services. A list which will be available any day now. But I don't want a freaking list. I want to be able to walk into any business and pay. I can walk into any store today, choose things to buy and then hand them dollars in exchange for the goods I want to purchasing. No muss, no fuss and no explaining that this is a card that contains a small amount of gold that comes with a fancy affiliate program that will reward me with champagne...

Which is why you guys also offer a MasterCard - and not just any MasterCard but the "best designed Mastercard" too! Frankly, it's a little ostentatious if you ask me... but hey, to each their own). It's a gimmick - a debit card that's meant to make an non-liquid and not-readily-accepted asset into a liquid and readily-accepted one.

You say that you don't see gold as a speculative investment, to buy low and then sell high. You see it as money, as the means of exchange for goods and services within the context of an honest, sound money system.

I say that you're peddling a bunch of bullshit. You would not use your fancy plastic cards, cards which you bought at effective prices of 1,800 USD per troy ounce to buy anything today, when the effective price is 1,300 USD per troy ounce; you would get less for your "money" and that would just be stupid. And you aren't stupid, are you?
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« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2013, 10:14:47 AM »

Do you remember Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, and the great Armin Shimerman's  endearing portrayal of "Quark", everyone's favourite loveable Ferengi ?



Do you remember commerce aboard the space station?

They didn't use FRNs, , , , $ or any sort of fiat currency did they?
Instead the inhabitants used bars & strips of Gold Pressed Latinum as money.



I hope this helps to further clarify the concept for you.

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« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2013, 10:36:36 AM »

I'll post here, if you don't mind. I'm allergic to private messages.


At current prices, 31.1034768 grams of gold (1 troy ounce) hovers around 1,340 USD. Let's just say 31 grams are worth, oh... I don't know... $1,302 seems like a nice number, no? That means that a single 1 gram gold bar card is worth... $42 (hey! Look at that, it's the answer to life! Good thing I picked $1,302 as the price earlier, no?)

So the smallest amount I can possibly pay by swapping things in 1-gram gold Karatbars is $42. If I want to get less, I need to rely on fiat currencies for change - the very thing you dislike and you believe is about to collapse. And if I want to buy a $50,000 car, even with the fancy big-spender 5-gram Karatbars, I need to carry around 238 Karatbars. That doesn't sound too bad, does it?

Well, assuming they are the same physical size as a 1-gram gold bar (and why shouldn't they be? A gold bar is well over 90% plastic, so plenty of space left over for some gold), they each occupy 108.8cm3. Let's just be nice and drop that 0.8 out of there. So in order to buy a car I need to haul 238 of those things, which would occupy a total volume of [238 Karatbars * (108.8cm3/gold bar)] = 25785.714cm3. That seems reasonable, no? Well... not so much. That's 25.785 liters. That's the same volume that 500 large eggs would occupy. That's approximately 872 fluid ounces.

Given the silliness of carrying around and trading a ton of little plastic cards (or bills and coins for that matter) and it's inability to be cleanly divided into small enough units to make it usable Karatbars simply isn't a practical as a medium of exchange. But if that wasn't all, Karatbars also doesn't fulfill one other important requirement that we have for "money":

It is not readily and widely accepted. Sure, you say there's a list businesses coming, a list which will trade little plastic cards for goods and services. A list which will be available any day now. But I don't want a freaking list. I want to be able to walk into any business and pay. I can walk into any store today, choose things to buy and then hand them dollars in exchange for the goods I want to purchasing. No muss, no fuss and no explaining that this is a card that contains a small amount of gold that comes with a fancy affiliate program that will reward me with champagne...

Which is why you guys also offer a MasterCard - and not just any MasterCard but the "best designed Mastercard" too! Frankly, it's a little ostentatious if you ask me... but hey, to each their own). It's a gimmick - a debit card that's meant to make an non-liquid and not-readily-accepted asset into a liquid and readily-accepted one.

You say that you don't see gold as a speculative investment, to buy low and then sell high. You see it as money, as the means of exchange for goods and services within the context of an honest, sound money system.

I say that you're peddling a bunch of bullshit. You would not use your fancy plastic cards, cards which you bought at effective prices of 1,800 USD per troy ounce to buy anything today, when the effective price is 1,300 USD per troy ounce; you would get less for your "money" and that would just be stupid. And you aren't stupid, are you?

It's pretty clear you either don't get it, ...or don't want to get it.
That's ok, ...the concept isn't for everyone, ...only those that get it.

One thing you are quite mistaken about tho is, one would have the ability to trade or exchange a mere fraction of a gram if required.

And yes, you are correct in stating that no one is spending their gold at the moment, ...at least no one in their right mind, ...unless they found themselves in a cash crunch. Why on earth would anyone want to sell something of lasting intrinsic value, when they can easily part with FRN's which are quickly declining in value? Smart money is getting rid of as much declining paper as it can while it is still being accepted. The hard assets are the insurance policy for the future.

If you are of the opinion that you neither want nor need this in your life, you're perfectly free to make that decision.

Have A Lovely Day!  Smiley


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« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2013, 10:46:29 AM »

Do you remember Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, and the great Armin Shimerman's  endearing portrayal of "Quark", everyone's favourite loveable Ferengi ?



Do you remember commerce aboard the space station?

They didn't use FRNs, , , , $ or any sort of fiat currency did they?
Instead the inhabitants used bars & strips of Gold Pressed Latinum as money.



And in StarWars they used "Republic Credits" whatever the hells those are... so what?

Are you fucking kidding me? Does your argument really boil down to "In StarTrek: Such and Such they did Such and Such" I think I'm going to bow out. StarTrek is science fiction: it's how a bunch of writers imagine the world will be 500 years in the future on "stardate 12345 point 67 point 89". It has helped some inventive people visualize the future and come up with ideas, but it's no different than something by Dr. Seuss. And please, don't come up with a witty rhyme like:

Quote
My plastic card, it's got some gold.
A gram inside is safely stored.
I get champagne for selling more.
Oh card, I love you more than gold.


Coincidentally, it may interest you to know that in StarTrek the "gold" part of "gold-pressed latinum" was worthless. It was the latinum stored inside the gold that was valuable. Or at least, that's what wikipedia suggests.


I hope this helps to further clarify the concept for you.

No, it doesn't. Why would it? How could quoting a science fiction's show depiction of monetary systems help clarify anything at all? Are you really going to resort to fictional currencies to support Karatba... oh wait. That makes PERFECT sense.
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« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2013, 10:58:21 AM »

If the argument here is if GOLD is money?

THEN I would offer that Gold is the only real money!
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« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2013, 11:25:10 AM »

If the argument here is if GOLD is money?

THEN I would offer that Gold is the only real money!


I am in complete and TOTAL AGREEMENT with you Teddy 10000000000000% !!!

The question then comes down to what one prefers to have... a money substitute, ...or the real thing!
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« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2013, 11:53:53 AM »

It's pretty clear you either don't get it, ...or don't want to get it.
That's ok, ...the concept isn't for everyone, ...only those that get it.

You're right. I don't get buying gold in tiny amounts when I can buy gold in larger amounts and get more bang for the buck. Silly me...


One thing you are quite mistaken about tho is, one would have the ability to trade or exchange a mere fraction of a gram if required.

How? How can I get change from a gold bar? Fiat currency? I thought we don't like that! Or the fancy "designer" MasterCard? Why use it, instead of using my regular MasterCard?


And yes, you are correct in stating that no one is spending their gold at the moment, ...at least no one in their right mind, ...unless they found themselves in a cash crunch. Why on earth would anyone want to sell something of lasting intrinsic value, when they can easily part with FRN's which are quickly declining in value? Smart money is getting rid of as much declining paper as it can while it is still being accepted. The hard assets are the insurance policy for the future.

LOL @ "while it's still being accepted"... you are funny.

If the continued slide in the price of gold isn't evidence that people are getting out of it then I'm not sure what would consistute such evidence. Perhaps that Murray Rothbard comment is more about you. Because, and forgive me for saying this, in post after post you have demonstrated your lack of understanding of basic economic theories, basic facts about the product you peddle and even percentages. You do remember when you insisted that Karatbars were 999.9% gold, don't you?


If you are of the opinion that you neither want nor need this in your life, you're perfectly free to make that decision.

Am I? Well, then let me flex my freedom a bit.

I am of the opinion that gold can be a hedge if you are otherwise well-invested and expect massive inflation to be a problem; I am of the opinion that at current prices it's not a wise purchase; I am of the opinion that if you want to buy gold, buying it by the gram is stupid because you overpay on an already expensive product; I am of the opinion that the proprietary format in which Karatbars package gold make it difficult to convert it into cash without having to go back to whoever sold it to you; I am of the opinion that you keep trying to entice people to invest into gold while pretending to not give investment advice.



Have A Lovely Day!  Smiley

Thanks! You too.
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« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2013, 04:36:28 PM »

If the argument here is if GOLD is money?

No, the argument here is: "is it sensible to buy an overpriced produc that's well over 90% plastic in order to accumulate an overpriced commodity in tiny amounts because the economic system will collapse any day now and once it does, gold will save you."

The answer, of course, is no.

Is gold money? Sure. But then again, so is salt and even stones. Money is what people will accept as money.


THEN I would offer that Gold is the only real money!

On that grounds?

It can't be scarcity, since I can list about almost half a dozen elements that are much rarer than gold without even having to resort to google: Rhodium, palladium, platinum, osmium and iridium all come to mind.

It can't be efficiency: having to dig out a ton of ore, processing it, alloying it (since gold has rather poor mechanical strength) and then minting into a variety of sizes,  is the textbook definition of inefficiency.

It can be stolen: lose the gold, lose the value... seems kind of dumb in an age where you can carry a card that can be replaced if lost or stolen with a single phonecall at no cost.

It has better uses: gold has many wonderful properties; from electronics to automobile manufacturing, there are so many uses for gold that it seems silly to use it as a medium of exchange in our digital era.

No. The only reasons you might provide are the following two:

  • Artifically limited supply: On earth, there's only so much gold to mine, so you can only ever have so much, therefore you can't just print more. But, in reality, that's just a silly argument. On the one hand, it's unclear what such a currency gets you; on the other hand, nothing stops anyone from issuing a currency which will only ever have a limited, well-known supply.
  • It's what our ancestors used: Yeah yeah, you've been bitten by the "it's always been done like that" bug. Sure, in the past, gold was valued for its rarity and become used as a medium of exchange and a store of value. But that's a poor reason to continue using it as a medium of exchange or a store of value today.
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« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2013, 07:31:38 AM »

You're right. I don't get buying gold in tiny amounts when I can buy gold in larger amounts and get more bang for the buck. Silly me...

I am not saying buy gold in tiny amounts. I'm saying I believe Karatbars to be ideal because they are in smaller, more transaction friendly weights.

If I have $1,000 in FRNs, I would still have $1,000 in FRNs regardless of how they were denominated.

If I have one X $1,000 FRN bill, or instead had fifty X $20 FRN bills, I would still have $1,000 FRNs wouldn't I?
HOWEVER, the fifty $20 bills are far more transaction friendly. Ever tried to spend a $1,000 bill? It's hard enough spending $100 bills these days, ...and even the $50 notes are increasingly becoming more problematic.

Quote
How? How can I get change from a gold bar? Fiat currency? I thought we don't like that!

Your change goes into your gold account.
   eg: I have something of value that you want. I agree to give it to you in exchange for 1/4 of a gram of gold. You hand me a 1 gram gold bar, and I transfer 0.75 grams of gold into your gold account. If you gave me a 2.5 gram gold bar, I would transfer 2.25 grams of gold from my account to yours.

Quote
Or the fancy "designer" MasterCard? Why use it, instead of using my regular MasterCard?

There are many reasons why I prefer my fancy "designer" Mastercards over my regular chartered bank issued MasterCard. For starters:
  • This MasterCard doesn't send me a monthly bill
  • This MasterCard is denominated in euro (which to me is far more preferable than USD$ or CDN$)
  • This Mastercard has NO LIMITs I could buy a house with it.
  • This Mastercard links to my gold account, resulting in immediate liquidity of my gold with the simple push of a button, ...at any time, ...at the highest guaranteed buy-back price
  • The MasterCard is just sooo durn pretty! The graphic jpg simply just does NOT do them justice. They are absolutely GORGEOUS up close. I can't even begin to tell you how many conversations have been started, simply by handing this card to a cashier, sales clerk, hotel clerk etc., etc., They're always commenting on how pretty it is. I don't think I have to tell you how tremendously advantageous that can be for someone like myself when a store owner or cashier admires the card and then asks me about it? Infact, just last night at the mall while doing some shopping for Diwali, I had the store mgr request that I send Karatbars information to a particular internal email address at her store, so that it would immediately & automatically cc to every sales person in her employ. What can I say, ...the Indian love affair with gold is well documented.

    These are just a few of among many reasons why I prefer the Karatbars MasterCard, there are many additional ones as well, ...however one of the biggest reasons I prefer THIS MasterCard over all others is:
     
    This Mastercard has NO FEES!!!

    I don't know about you, but I use merchants all over the world. My shopping isn't just limited to Toronto. I make purchases through retailers across Canada, the USA, through out Europe, as well as Asia. For Canadian dollar denominated online transactions and recurring bills, my CDN$ Mastercard is fine, but for retailers in Paris, Barcelona, Berlin, Dubai  or Hong Kong, I prefer to use my Karatbars MasterCard. The absence of currency conversion fees alone is reason enough to use it over all the others, ...but when you throw in all the other benefits & features, ...this card is ideal! Besides, I'm not fond of walking into my bank branch and having the various tellers be able to scrutinize where I've been doing my shopping. The final straw for me was when went into the bank to pay off the card before the statement date, and noticed my balance was off what I was expecting it to be, a little less infact. The Branch Asst. Mgr informed me that a new charge had gone through just that morning for a particular amount, so that could be why there might be more charges than I had expected. I told her it's not that there are more charges than I was expecting, it's that there were less charges than I was expecting, nevertheless, I  further informed her the last purchase I had made had been over a week ago, and was for twice that, and I certainly hadn't made a purchase that day. Within 2 seconds she said "Hmmm... well did you perhaps buy a book?" Turns out I had ordered a few items from Amazon.com ... a bunch of books, and a few BLU-RAY trilogies, but not ALL the items were available to ship out to me, so rather than make me wait for everything, Amazon had split the order, send me 1/2 the order, and only billed me for the portion they sent out. the following week they shipped & billed the balance of the order. I had assumed they had billed me the night I made the order, but as it turns out, all they did was get approval for the order and place a courtesy hold in order to ensure the funds would be there when they actually billed the card.There was just something about the way she asked if I had bought a book that just rubbed me the wrong way. It simply reinforced my desire for greater privacy regarding my purchases.

    Quote
    LOL @ "while it's still being accepted"... you are funny.

    I was in no way being facetious!

    It may appear that way to you from your perspective. Afterall, you live in a country wherein the current legal tender laws mandate your use & acceptance of FRNs (at least until HR 77 kicks in), but OUTSIDE of the USA, the FRN does NOT enjoy legal tender status.

    When I got back from the States, the only cash I had in my purse was USD FRNs, and my Karatbars credit card was tucked away in my suitcase in the trunk of the limo. On the way home, I had the limo driver duck into the convenience store near my house for a quick pit stop, and you should have seen the distasteful scowl that came across the owner's face when I pulled out USD$. Just by her expression, one could have thought I was trying to hand her a used condom. She didn't want it. Infact, she said "You know what, ...just give me $CDN the next time you're in." It was only then that I noticed the little sign posted that read "No US Dollars Please." This was a very recent posting.

    The very idea of a store owner prefering to issue credit rather than accept USD$ may seem unusual to you because you are right there in the USA, ...and especially being in Las Vegas, you might be used to seeing establishments routinely accept foreign currency, ...but outside the USA, the FRN is not as welcomed as it once was.

    There have been many times over the past decade when I'd go to a store and all I had on me was USD$ (Other than film industry residuals, between 2001 - 2008, my working income was pretty much strictly in USD$) and they were ALWAYS more than happy to accept them. Infact, their little eyes would light up. HA! I can tell you those days are long gone. Even in some of the major hotel chains, they prefer to not have to deal with them if possible. Just last month, I had an early morning breakfast date with one of my Billionaire friends. Breakfast with a Billionaire is always fun. I didn't want to be fighting rush hour traffic to get downtown that early in the morning, plus I had a whack of errands to complete and a bunch of stuff to do, and a boatload of parties to attend, and commuting back & forth throughout the day to shower, change clothes etc., just wasn't my idea of time well managed, so I just grabbed a room at The Sheraton Centre downtown for a few nights. When I checked in, I accidently handed them my USD$ denominated credit card, but when the hotel clerk realized I was local he informed me he could give me a better rate if I used a $CDN credit card instead.

    Quote
    If the continued slide in the price of gold isn't evidence that people are getting out of it then I'm not sure what would consistute such evidence. Perhaps that Murray Rothbard comment is more about you. Because, and forgive me for saying this, in post after post you have demonstrated your lack of understanding of basic economic theories, basic facts about the product you peddle and even percentages.

    You're forgiven for saying it. I always forgive ignorance. It's the willfull, dissemination of untruths, whether by malice, or simply due to a twisted, selfish, perverse sense of humour that I have a more difficult time with.

    I believe many who think the continued slide in the price of gold is some sort of barometre indicative of it's demand fail to realize that what is being sold is not physical GOLD, but rather paper GOLD ETF's. Paper derivative substitutes for actual gold that were over sold far too many times without the underlying metal to back them up. What little actual GOLD these ETFs contain, relative to the paper derivative substitutes they issued, are steadily being drained to the point of default. ARN Ambro in the Netherlands has already defaulted.

    In my opinion, what would constitute evidence of people getting out of gold, is if the demand actually abated. I am seeing no evidence of that. Quite the contrary. What I'm seeing is increased demand for physical. When central banks & "market makers" are busy loudly proclaiming GOLD is crap, and selling off their paper gold, while quietly buying up the physical gold wrested out of the hands of the weak, ...I know it's not yet time to be selling my gold. I will continue to acquire gold as long as central banks continue to conjure up paper currencies out of thin air, ...maybe even longer.

    I believe those who think gold is in a bubble fail to realize the concerted & deliberate push by market manipulators to shake out the weak hands in the market, as well as the uninformed speculators, and ignite exponential cascades of stop loss triggers, precipitating & exascerbating further price declines, that only facilitate THEIR ability to acquire actual PHYSICAL gold at a lower price. If central banks acquired the quantities they both want & need without the orchestrated smash downs, the price would escalate far too precipitously for an orderly transition of any kind. The more they smash the price of GOLD down, ...the easier it becomes to acquire more of it for more people so inclined to do so, all over the world, ...except maybe in India. Between the drastic devaluation of the rupee, and the massive & continuous import taxes levied by the indian government, Indians aren't enjoying as tremendous a sale as the rest of us, but fortunately for the Indians themselves, ...they don't need a Black Friday / Boxing Day type sale to incentivise them to acquire gold. Their knowledge of the true value of gold and what it truly is, is incentive enough for them, as my own is for me.

    I believe we're witnessing herculean efforts to maintain a managed and orderly decline of the derivative markets.I will certainly tip my hat to them that they've been able to hold it together for as long as they have been. I hope they manage to keep it together much longer too... (I'm not done acquiring gold yet) ...and I won't even consider being done acquiring gold, until and unless central banks & gov't around the world are done printing debt-based currencies. Even JPM who IMO is one of the biggest conductors on this slow motion train wreck has had to concede that even by their own measures global excess money supply is at an unprecedented all time high with just the G4's alone, accounting for at least 1/3 of the increase. They just issued a new report written by Nikolaos Panigirtzoglu and Matthew Lehmann from JPM's global asset allocation team. It's gotten so craaaazy, that according to the LA Times, even the Fed is on the verge of needing a possible bailout. WTF?!?!  Shocked 



    Quote
    You do remember when you insisted that Karatbars were 999.9% gold, don't you?

    Good Grief!!! Are you still harping on that? LOL! Let me assure you I no longer make that reference, even though the many jewelers & gold dealers I speak to on a regular basis still do.

    Quote
    Am I? Well, then let me flex my freedom a bit.

    I am of the opinion that gold can be a hedge if you are otherwise well-invested and expect massive inflation to be a problem; I am of the opinion that at current prices it's not a wise purchase; I am of the opinion that if you want to buy gold, buying it by the gram is stupid because you overpay on an already expensive product; I am of the opinion that the proprietary format in which Karatbars package gold make it difficult to convert it into cash without having to go back to whoever sold it to you; I am of the opinion that you keep trying to entice people to invest into gold while pretending to not give investment advice.

    Thanks! You too.

    LOL. Well, ...actually, you're not free, ...you're American, ...but I saw no need to be nit-pickety about it. But hey that's OK, Even though you're American, I will permit you to have a little freedom of thought (no matter how misguided, myopic, or ill informed), ... one of the very freedoms your gov'ts, politicians, and MSMs refuse to allow you. {sigh} It's gotta be tough living in a country that refuses to allow it's citizens to think.  Cry ...treating them like mushrooms all the while distracting them with an endless barage of theatrical side-shows. Between the GMOs, and the brain eating aspartame, ...it's a wonder they've even retained any cerebral activity at all, ...provided they had any to begin with.

    I just hope I haven't given you too much to think about? I wouldn't want your little brain cell to pop.  Grin

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« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2013, 08:51:48 AM »

No, the argument here is: "is it sensible to buy an overpriced produc that's well over 90% plastic in order to accumulate an overpriced commodity in tiny amounts because the economic system will collapse any day now and once it does, gold will save you."

The answer, of course, is no.

Is gold money? Sure. But then again, so is salt and even stones. Money is what people will accept as money.

Dude, Money is sooo much more than merely what people will accept as money.
There are some very real criteria that must be met in order to qualify as money.
If not, ...it's merely a poor substitute for money.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAw6i5jFwbw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAw6i5jFwbw</a>
 

Quote
On that grounds?

It can't be scarcity, since I can list about almost half a dozen elements that are much rarer than gold without even having to resort to google: Rhodium, palladium, platinum, osmium and iridium all come to mind.

It can't be efficiency: having to dig out a ton of ore, processing it, alloying it (since gold has rather poor mechanical strength) and then minting into a variety of sizes,  is the textbook definition of inefficiency.

It can be stolen: lose the gold, lose the value... seems kind of dumb in an age where you can carry a card that can be replaced if lost or stolen with a single phonecall at no cost.

It has better uses: gold has many wonderful properties; from electronics to automobile manufacturing, there are so many uses for gold that it seems silly to use it as a medium of exchange in our digital era.

No. The only reasons you might provide are the following two:

  • Artifically limited supply: On earth, there's only so much gold to mine, so you can only ever have so much, therefore you can't just print more. But, in reality, that's just a silly argument. On the one hand, it's unclear what such a currency gets you; on the other hand, nothing stops anyone from issuing a currency which will only ever have a limited, well-known supply.
  • It's what our ancestors used: Yeah yeah, you've been bitten by the "it's always been done like that" bug. Sure, in the past, gold was valued for its rarity and become used as a medium of exchange and a store of value. But that's a poor reason to continue using it as a medium of exchange or a store of value today.


 
Let's start with the basics. GOLD has some characteristics that no other matter on Earth has...
 

It cannot be:
  • Printed (ask a miner how long it takes to find it and dig it up)
  • Counterfeited (you can try, but a scale will catch it every time)
  • Inflated (It can't be reproduced)

It cannot be destroyed by;
  • Fire (it takes at least 1945.4 degrees F. to melt gold)
  • Water (it doesn't rust or tarnish)
  • Time (Gold remains recognizable after a thousand years)

It doesn't need:
  • Feeding (like cattle)
  • Fertilizer (like corn)
  • Maintenance (like printing presses, cars, or real estate)

It has no:
  • Time limit (most metal is still in existence)
  • Counterparty risk (remember MF Global?)
  • Shelf life (Gold never expires)

As a metal, Gold is uniquely:
  • Malleable (It spreads without cracking)
  • Ductile (It stretches without breaking)
  • Beautiful (just ask an Indian bride)

As money, GOLD is:
  • Liquid (easily convertible to cash)
  • Portable (you can conveniently hold $50,000 in one hand)
  • Divisible (you can use GOLD in tiny fractions)
  • Consistent (Gold is the same in any quantity, at any place)
  • Private (no one has to know you own it)

GOLD is internationally accepted, lastsfor thousands of years,
and probably most important, you can't make any more of it.

 
"Gold Is Money"
 
You've heard that statement before - but do you know what it really means?
Money is a medium of exchange and a store of value. Almost anything can be used as money, but obviously some things work better than others. It's hard to exchange things people don't want' and other things don't store value well. Over thousands of years, GOLD has emerged as the best form of money (along with silver).
 
The paper dollars in your wallet are technically a currency, not real money.
In other words, they are a government substitute for money.

Aristotle best defined the primary reasons why GOLD is considered money.

He opined that in order to be money, something must meet certain basic criteria:

A good form of money must:
  • Be Durable,
  • Be Divisible,
  • Be Fungible (consistent),
  • Be convenient,
  • Have value in and of itself.

It must be durable because you can't have your money disintegrating in your pocket or bank. That's why you don't use wheat; it can rot or be eaten by insects. Just last year I saw a news report of a woman in China who had her life savings in paper money. When she went to dip into it to make a ourchase, she discovered it had been eaten by mice. She was only able to recoup a small portion.
 
It must be divisible, which is why you don't use diamonds or artwork; they can't be split into pieces without destroying the value of the whole.
 
The lack of fungibility (consistency) is why you can't use real estate. One piece is always different from another piece.
 
It must be convenient, which is why you don't use other metals like lead. The coins would have to be too big to handle easily to be of sufficient value.
 
It must have value in and of itself. This is why you shouldn't use paper as money. As Mike Maloney is so fond of saying, "paper currencies had more value to them before they ruined them by putting all that ink on them". And it's true. You can't even write a grocery list on them, ....and the new plastic bills are even worse.If you accidently forget one in your pocket, and run it through the wash, ...you can forget it surviving a tumble in the dryer. The value of GOLD will always be at least equal to the value of the labour used to extract it.
 
And one more thing: It can't be created out of thin air. Not even the kings and emperors who clipped and diluted gold coins used paper as money, so Aristotle didn't include this in his list, but it's vital.
 
So you see, there's no superstition here. It's simply common sense. Gold is particularly good for use as money, just as aluminum is good for making aircraft, steel is good for the structures of buildings, uranium is good for fueling nuclear power plants, and paper is good for making books. However, if you try to make airplanes out of lead or money out of paper, you're in for a nasty crash.  Shocked
 
And by the way, don't fret about those like Warren Buffett or Charlie Munger who say GOLD is not as good an asset as an income-producing vehicle. They misunderstand the role of precious metals (as evidenced by Buffett's nearly losing his shirt back in the 80's when he tried his play). GOLD is not trying to be a stock, for example. GOLD's function is as money, and a store of value, so the proper comparison is to your dollars, your FRNs, or what you call Treasury Bills (of similar nominal value). And here is where GOLD excels and serves it's purpose: since 1913, the FRN has lost 98% of its purchasing power. GOLD has lost none.
 
Remember, GOLD is the only financial asset that is not simultaneously someone else's liability.
GOLD doesn't require the backing of any bank or government.
 
Another of gold's roles is to protect your purchasing power. Here are a few examples of how gold's purchasing power has endured:
 
During the time of Christ, an ounce of gold purchased a Roman citizen his toga (suit), a leather belt, and a pair of sandals. Today, one ounce will still buy a good suit, a leather belt, and a pair of shoes.
 
In 400 BC, during the reign of King Nebuchadnezzar, some scholars reported that an ounce of gold bought 350 loaves of bread. Today, an ounce still buys about 350 loaves ($1,344 divided by 350 = $3.84/loaf).
 
In 1979, gold's average price was $306.68. This bought an average-priced full-size bed. Thirty-four years later, $1,300 would still buy you a nice full-size bed (and then some).
 
You can rest assured that over time, gold will hold it's value (despite any fluctuations in it's price, it's value remains constant). And when you near the end of your life, you can pass gold on to your loved ones, knowing full well they will have something that cannot be devalued, debased, or destroyed.
 
What colour is your money? The colour of MY money is GOLD!!!
 
Like most conscious & aware people, I'm concerned about the current state of fiscal and monetary affairs. It seems our government leaders have boxed themselves into a corner. They've incurred too much debt and are spending too much money. It's important that we understand some lessons from history about this kind of behavior so that we're certain of what gold can do for us.
 
The common denominators that lead to the downfall of every fiat currency are the two big Ds: debts and deficits. With that in mind, consider the following:
 
Morgan Stanley reported that there is "no historical precedent" for an economy that exceeds a 250% debt-to-GDP ratio without experiencing some sort of financial crisis or high inflation. US total debt currently exceeds GDP by roughly 400%.
 
Detailed studies of government debt levels over the past 100 years show that debts have never been repaid (in original currency units) when they exceed 80% of GDP. US government debt will exceed 100% of GDP this year.
 
Investment legend Marc Faber reports that once a country's payments on debt exceed 30% of tax revenue, the currency is "done for." By some estimates, the US will hit that ratio this year.
 
Peter Bernholz, a leading expert on hyperinflation, states unequivocally that "hyperinflation is caused by government budget deficits." USA budget deficit... $1.3 trillion.
 
The solution many of our leaders are pursuing is to create more currency units. Just the other day Australia was lamenting the fact that their dollars was rising in relation to the FRN. Now what do the Australians want to about that... rasing their debt celing and print more currency units! They haven't even hit their debt ceiling yet, ...but already they are crying for an increase.

Just consider the increase in the US monetary base vs. gold's rise in price since 2008, when our problems became more obvious.

The monetary base has grown 200+ %, while gold's price is up 66%. This alone implies that gold's price in dollars is likely to climb much higher.
 
This is also the reason why gold is not in a bubble, as some have tried to claim. It is the central banks and bond markets that are in a bubble. The fact that gold's price has so dramatically risen is a warning that what our leaders are doing is unsustainable and dangerous to our currency.
 
Think about it. The USA has debt backed by debt, based on debt, dependent on debt, and leveraged with debt. You can, for example, buy a bond (ie: lend money) on margin (ie: with borrowed money). This is not a sound way to run financial markets.
 
Meanwhile, the warning bells continue to sound regarding Europe's debt crisis.:
  • Moody's cautioned that it would cut the triple-A status of France, Austria, and the UK; and it downgraded six other European nations including Italy, Spain, and Portugal.
  • Standard & Poor's cut the triple-A status of France and Austria, while Italy, Spain, Portugal, Cyprus, Malta, Slovakia, and Slovenia were downgraded.
  • Fitch downgraded Belgium, Cyprus, Italy, Slovenia, and Spain, and stated there was a 50% chance of further cuts in the next two years.
  • Standard & Poor's downgraded 34 of Italy's 37 banks.
  • Moody's warned that it would cut the credit ratings of 17 global financial institutions and 114 European ones.

The European crisis is far from over; and the path of least resistance for politicians is to create more currency units. This action can and will have clear & direct consequences: currencies will devalue, and inflation - perhaps hyperinflation - will result.
 
Once again, I believe using gold to protect a portion of wealth is both wise & prudent, ...whether that wealth consists of a few thousand, a few hundred thousand, or a few million.
 
How Much Is Enough? {shug}
 
Given the state of our monetary systems, I believe we should accumulate gold on a regular basis... simply acquiring some every month and putting it in a safe place. After what has been witnessed throughout history, and based on the current path our government leaders insist on pursuing, I suggest using gold as a savings vehicle instead of putting dollars in a bank is a very wise & prudent course of action for me.
 
I believe if you don't own enough gold when these fiscal troubles really accelerate, I fear many will regret it. Gold has warned many in the past about the dilution of a nations' currencies, and those who didn't heed it's warnings experienced severe financial pain. Excuses won't pay the mortgage or feed the family when the effects of currency debasement hit our homes and pocketbooks.
 
I intend to make sure I own enough gold to make a significant difference in my portfolio. And for me, this means having more than a couple kilos.
 
How do you know if you own enough? {shrug} I ask myself "What happens if...":
 
If inflation returns, or even hyperinflation hits...
If the economy is flat...
If uncertainty and fear continue around the globe...
If stock markets languish...
If the amount of spending from the world's governments proves futile...
If government interference in the economy continues to increase...
If the value of the US dollar takes a major fall...
If the world enters a recession or depression...
If you wonder if you have enough "safe" money...
 
 ...would you feel that you own enough gold?  Huh
 
I'm actively acquiring a sufficient amount so that as our currencies continue to lose value, my portfolio won't. If I do my part, I know that gold will do it's.

The History Lesson
 
Because GOLD is eons old, it has observed something throughout history that you may not have thought much about: government fiat currencies are a relatively new invention, and NONE have endured! Eventually, they have all failed. GOLD?? GOLD has never defaulted or been worth zero. Remember this the next time you have any doubts about gold's long-term worth.
 [/list]
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You've given me multiple traumatic brain injuries!


« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2013, 09:12:55 AM »

I am not saying buy gold in tiny amounts. I'm saying I believe Karatbars to be ideal because they are in smaller, more transaction friendly weights.

You are advocating the purchase of gold as a long-term store of value and believe that purchasing it in tiny amounts makes financial sense. It doesn't. Get back to use with this "transaction friendly weights" nonsense when Karatbars are actually widely accepted as payment.


If I have $1,000 in FRNs, I would still have $1,000 in FRNs regardless of how they were denominated.

Right, and?


If I have one X $1,000 FRN bill, or instead had fifty X $20 FRN bills, I would still have $1,000 FRNs wouldn't I?

Right and?


HOWEVER, the fifty $20 bills are far more transaction friendly. Ever tried to spend a $1,000 bill? It's hard enough spending $100 bills these days, ...and even the $50 notes are increasingly becoming more problematic.

I've never had a problem spending a $100 or a $50.


Your change goes into your gold account.
   eg: I have something of value that you want. I agree to give it to you in exchange for 1/4 of a gram of gold. You hand me a 1 gram gold bar, and I transfer 0.75 grams of gold into your gold account. If you gave me a 2.5 gram gold bar, I would transfer 2.25 grams of gold from my account to yours.

I don't trust "gold accounts". I only trust gold. Isn't that what this is all about?


There are many reasons why I prefer my fancy "designer" Mastercards over my regular chartered bank issued MasterCard. For starters:
  • This MasterCard doesn't send me a monthly bill

Neither does a regular MasterCard debit card.


  • This MasterCard is denominated in euro (which to me is far more preferable than USD$ or CDN$)

You do realize that there are other Euro-denominated MasterCards, right?

 
  • This Mastercard has NO LIMITs I could buy a house with it.

I very much doubt that, as per MasterCard requirements all credit and debit cards have a maximum daily limit for purchases, as stipulated in the agreement that vendors who wish to issue MasterCard branded cards must sign.

The only exception are the "secured" cards in the MasterCard lineup, which basically function as a glorified cashier's check. You deposit all the money you want to spend onto the card, and then you can spend it. That's great and all, if you don't mind depositing money today to maybe spend tomorrow. I don't think such an arrangement makes financial sense.
 

  • This Mastercard links to my gold account, resulting in immediate liquidity of my gold with the simple push of a button, ...at any time, ...at the highest guaranteed buy-back price

I thought that we frown on liquidating our gold for purchases... what gives?


  • The MasterCard is just sooo durn pretty! The graphic jpg simply just does NOT do them justice. They are absolutely GORGEOUS up close. I can't even begin to tell you how many conversations have been started, simply by handing this card to a cashier, sales clerk, hotel clerk etc., etc., They're always commenting on how pretty it is. blah blah blah

To each their own. I find it gaudy and ostentatious.


These are just a few of among many reasons why I prefer the Karatbars MasterCard, there are many additional ones as well, ...however one of the biggest reasons I prefer THIS MasterCard over all others is:
 
This Mastercard has NO FEES!!!

The only card I have which has a fee is an American Express - a fee that American Express has waived each and every year for the past 18 years. And I get free airport lounge access which is a nice perk. Oh, and remember the bit about buying a house? That's what an American Express card is for... my card doesn't have a spending limit.


I don't know about you, but I use merchants all over the world. My shopping isn't just limited to Toronto. I make purchases through retailers across Canada, the USA, through out Europe, as well as Asia. For Canadian dollar denominated online transactions and recurring bills, my CDN$ Mastercard is fine, but for retailers in Paris, Barcelona, Berlin, Dubai  or Hong Kong, I prefer to use my Karatbars MasterCard. The absence of currency conversion fees alone is reason enough to use it over all the others, ...but when you throw in all the other benefits & features, ...this card is ideal!

If your card is denominated in Euros then anytime you use it to make a purchase in a currency other than Euros the MasterCard network will internally convert the transaction. There's no getting around that. It's not a function of the card, it's a function of the network. If you're going to make up a story about how you don't get charged fees, at least make it a plausible one: "I get reimbursed for currency conversion fees!" seems like a reasonable approach.


Besides, I'm not fond of walking into my bank branch and having the various tellers be able to scrutinize where I've been doing my shopping. The final straw for me was when went into the bank to pay off the card before the statement date, and noticed my balance was off what I was expecting it to be, a little less infact. The Branch Asst. Mgr informed me that a new charge had gone through just that morning for a particular amount, so that could be why there might be more charges than I had expected. I told her it's not that there are more charges than I was expecting, it's that there were less charges than I was expecting, nevertheless, I  further informed her the last purchase I had made had been over a week ago, and was for twice that, and I certainly hadn't made a purchase that day. Within 2 seconds she said "Hmmm... well did you perhaps buy a book?" Turns out I had ordered a few items from Amazon.com ... a bunch of books, and a few BLU-RAY trilogies, but not ALL the items were available to ship out to me, so rather than make me wait for everything, Amazon had split the order, send me 1/2 the order, and only billed me for the portion they sent out. the following week they shipped & billed the balance of the order. I had assumed they had billed me the night I made the order, but as it turns out, all they did was get approval for the order and place a courtesy hold in order to ensure the funds would be there when they actually billed the card.There was just something about the way she asked if I had bought a book that just rubbed me the wrong way. It simply reinforced my desire for greater privacy regarding my purchases.

So you think that the people who issue this branded MasterCard don't have access to view that you made a purchase at Amazon.com? That's funny... are you really that naive?


It may appear that way to you from your perspective. Afterall, you live in a country wherein the current legal tender laws mandate your use & acceptance of FRNs (at least until HR 77 kicks in), but OUTSIDE of the USA, the FRN does NOT enjoy legal tender status.

Of course Federal Reserve Notes don't enjoy legal tender status. A nation (like the United States) cannot make its currency legal tender anywhere except for its own territory. Why is this surprising? The Euro isn't legal tender in Kentucky. The Yuan isn't legal tender in France. The Rupee isn't legal tender in Quebec. The Yen isn't legal tender in New Zealand.

And you know the kicker? Gold isn't legal tender anywhere.


[Also: LOL @ HR77... you are a joker.]


When I got back from the States, the only cash I had in my purse was USD FRNs, and my Karatbars credit card was tucked away in my suitcase in the trunk of the limo. On the way home, I had the limo driver duck into the convenience store near my house for a quick pit stop, and you should have seen the distasteful scowl that came across the owner's face when I pulled out USD$. Just by her expression, one could have thought I was trying to hand her a used condom. She didn't want it. Infact, she said "You know what, ...just give me $CDN the next time you're in." It was only then that I noticed the little sign posted that read "No US Dollars Please." This was a very recent posting.

So your complain is that a foreign store doesn't accept dollars? I have no problem with that. If they want to accept it, then great. If they don't, then great.


The very idea of a store owner prefering to issue credit rather than accept USD$ may seem unusual to you because you are right there in the USA, ...and especially being in Las Vegas, you might be used to seeing establishments routinely accept foreign currency, ...but outside the USA, the FRN is not as welcomed as it once was.

It doesn't seem unusual to me at all.


There have been many times over the past decade when I'd go to a store and all I had on me was USD$ (Other than film industry residuals, between 2001 - 2008, my working income was pretty much strictly in USD$) and they were ALWAYS more than happy to accept them. Infact, their little eyes would light up. HA! I can tell you those days are long gone. Even in some of the major hotel chains, they prefer to not have to deal with them if possible. Just last month, I had an early morning breakfast date with one of my Billionaire friends. Breakfast with a Billionaire is always fun. I didn't want to be fighting rush hour traffic to get downtown that early in the morning, plus I had a whack of errands to complete and a bunch of stuff to do, and a boatload of parties to attend, and commuting back & forth throughout the day to shower, change clothes etc., just wasn't my idea of time well managed, so I just grabbed a room at The Sheraton Centre downtown for a few nights. When I checked in, I accidently handed them my USD$ denominated credit card, but when the hotel clerk realized I was local he informed me he could give me a better rate if I used a $CDN credit card instead.

There are many reasons why he could give you a better rate - including the most obvious one but the conversion could be skipped. But ignore all that and pretend, without any evidence whatsoever that it's because "The Sheraton Centre" doesn't like USD, why don't you?
 


I believe many who think the continued slide in the price of gold is some sort of barometre indicative of it's demand fail to realize that what is being sold is not physical GOLD, but rather paper GOLD ETF's. Paper derivative substitutes for actual gold that were over sold far too many times without the underlying metal to back them up. What little actual GOLD these ETFs contain, relative to the paper derivative substitutes they issued, are steadily being drained to the point of default. ARN Ambro in the Netherlands has already defaulted.

In my opinion, what would constitute evidence of people getting out of gold, is if the demand actually abated. I am seeing no evidence of that. Quite the contrary. What I'm seeing is increased demand for physical. When central banks & "market makers" are busy loudly proclaiming GOLD is crap, and selling off their paper gold, while quietly buying up the physical gold wrested out of the hands of the weak, ...I know it's not yet time to be selling my gold. I will continue to acquire gold as long as central banks continue to conjure up paper currencies out of thin air, ...maybe even longer.

You see "increased physical demand" where? Do you have some insight into the gold bullion market that others don't? The spot price of gold doesn't have anything to do with ETFs. It is the price for bullion.


I believe those who think gold is in a bubble fail to realize the concerted & deliberate push by market manipulators to shake out the weak hands in the market, as well as the uninformed speculators, and ignite exponential cascades of stop loss triggers, precipitating & exascerbating further price declines, that only facilitate THEIR ability to acquire actual PHYSICAL gold at a lower price. If central banks acquired the quantities they both want & need without the orchestrated smash downs, the price would escalate far too precipitously for an orderly transition of any kind. The more they smash the price of GOLD down, ...the easier it becomes to acquire more of it for more people so inclined to do so, all over the world, ...except maybe in India. Between the drastic devaluation of the rupee, and the massive & continuous import taxes levied by the indian government, Indians aren't enjoying as tremendous a sale as the rest of us, but fortunately for the Indians themselves, ...they don't need a Black Friday / Boxing Day type sale to incentivise them to acquire gold. Their knowledge of the true value of gold and what it truly is, is incentive enough for them, as my own is for me.

You believe many things. But beliefs are, by and large, meaningless. Can you rationally defend your beliefs and substantiate them with facts? Don't worry about answering that... it was a rhetorical question.


I believe we're witnessing herculean efforts to maintain a managed and orderly decline of the derivative markets.I will certainly tip my hat to them that they've been able to hold it together for as long as they have been. I hope they manage to keep it together much longer too... (I'm not done acquiring gold yet) ...and I won't even consider being done acquiring gold, until and unless central banks & gov't around the world are done printing debt-based currencies. Even JPM who IMO is one of the biggest conductors on this slow motion train wreck has had to concede that even by their own measures global excess money supply is at an unprecedented all time high with just the G4's alone, accounting for at least 1/3 of the increase. They just issued a new report written by Nikolaos Panigirtzoglu and Matthew Lehmann from JPM's global asset allocation team. It's gotten so craaaazy, that according to the LA Times, even the Fed is on the verge of needing a possible bailout. WTF?!?!  Shocked


See above...


Good Grief!!! Are you still harping on that? LOL! Let me assure you I no longer make that reference, even though the many jewelers & gold dealers I speak to on a regular basis still do.

You know jewelers and gold dealers who say nine-hundred and ninety-nine percent pure? Really? DAMN... That's quite insane.

LOL. Well, ...actually, you're not free, ...you're American, ...but I saw no need t), ... one of the very freedoms your gov'ts, politicians, and MSMs refuse to allow you. {sigh} It's gotta be tough living in a country that refuses to allow it's citizens to think.  Cry ...treating them like mushrooms all the while distracting them with an endless barage of theatrical side-shows. Between the GMOs, and the brain eating aspartame, ...it's a wonder they've even retained any cerebral activity at all, ...provided they had any to begin with.

I see no evidence that the country isn't allowing me to think. And please, be careful. Words have meaning.
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« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2013, 10:43:06 AM »

Let's start with the basics.

Yes. Let's.


GOLD has some characteristics that no other matter on Earth has...

Really? You mean besides having atomic number 79? This will be good.
 

It cannot be:
  • Printed (ask a miner how long it takes to find it and dig it up)
  • Counterfeited (you can try, but a scale will catch it every time)
  • Inflated (It can't be reproduced)

Bullshit. Platinum cannot be printed, counterfeited or inflated. Rhodium cannot be printed, counterfeited or inflated. Copper cannot be printed, counterfeited or inflated. Silicon cannot be printed, counterfeited or inflated. Oxygen cannot be printed, counterfeited or inflated.

So there are plenty of elements which meet all those requirements. Strike one!

And some sidenotes: First, you are aware that gold can be created using particle accelerators, right? Glenn Seaborg transmuted lead into gold, in the process of transmuting lead into another element; it is a completely impractical and ludicrously expensive method but it does exist. Second, a scale isn't always enough; you almost certainly need more advanced tools than a scale, like a mass spectrographs to be sure you aren't getting fooled.



It cannot be destroyed by;
  • Fire (it takes at least 1945.4 degrees F. to melt gold)
  • Water (it doesn't rust or tarnish)
  • Time (Gold remains recognizable after a thousand years)

For your information, a mixture of nitric acid and hydrochloric acid will dissolve gold quite readily. But let's not get too chemical up in this hizzouse! Back to debunking your silliness.

Platinum and titanium both melt at over 3,000 F, so they're better than gold in that respect. Neither of them rust or tarnish and platinum is, in fact, less reactive that gold. And both remain recognizable.

So there's at least two other elements that meet all these requirements. Strike two!


 
It doesn't need:
  • Feeding (like cattle)
  • Fertilizer (like corn)
  • Maintenance (like printing presses, cars, or real estate)

Platinum is an inert transition metal. It requires no feeding, fertilizing or maintenance. Titanium is another transition metal. It also requires no feeding, fertilizing or maintenance.

So there are at least two elements that meet all those requirements. Strike three! You're out!
 


It has no:
  • Time limit (most metal is still in existence)
  • Counterparty risk (remember MF Global?)
  • Shelf life (Gold never expires)

That's a funny way to define "time limit". But OK...

Platinum and titanium also have no time limit using that same definition. They also have no counterparty risk. And they never "expire".

So there are at least two elements that meet all those requirements. You were out already but Strike Four! OUT! OUT!



As a metal, Gold is uniquely:
  • Malleable (It spreads without cracking)
  • Ductile (It stretches without breaking)
  • Beautiful (just ask an Indian bride)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, platinum is considerably more ductile than gold while being only slightly less malleable.

So there is at least one element that meet the requirements. Strike five! Why are you still here?

 
As money, GOLD is:
  • Liquid (easily convertible to cash)
  • Portable (you can conveniently hold $50,000 in one hand)
  • Divisible (you can use GOLD in tiny fractions)
  • Consistent (Gold is the same in any quantity, at any place)
  • Private (no one has to know you own it)

The market for all precious metals is liquid, but I wouldn't say precious metals are easily convertible to cash. The market for non-precious metals is, of course, even more liquid. Look at copper for example. Or aluminum.

Platinum is equally "portable" by your definition, but really, everything pales when compared to things like debit and credit cards.

Platinum is equally "divisible" although you are limited in how easily you can divide things. You can't cut a gold coin in half. You can "virtually" do so with debit and credit cards.

Just about any physical element is "consistent" using your definition.

And as for privacy, sure, nobody has to know, but then again, nobody has to know you're buying German scheisse porn either.

So much for gold being the only element. Strike six! You have been out and are now further out still.
 


GOLD is internationally accepted, lastsfor thousands of years,
and probably most important, you can't make any more of it.

Platinum is internationally accepted, lasts for thousands of years and you can't make more of it either.
 

You've heard that statement before - but do you know what it really means?
Money is a medium of exchange and a store of value. Almost anything can be used as money, but obviously some things work better than others. It's hard to exchange things people don't want' and other things don't store value well. Over thousands of years, GOLD has emerged as the best form of money (along with silver).

 
The paper dollars in your wallet are technically a currency, not real money.

Anything that people want to use as money is money. In fact, the word currency means... (wait for it): "a system of money in general use in a particular country."

 
In other words, they are a government substitute for money.

They are a token. The only difference is that in the gold system you advocate, the little plastic cards are both the token and the value.


Aristotle best defined the primary reasons why GOLD is considered money.

He opined that in order to be money, something must meet certain basic criteria:

A good form of money must:
  • Be Durable,
  • Be Divisible,
  • Be Fungible (consistent),
  • Be convenient,
  • Have value in and of itself.

Oh boy...

It must be durable because you can't have your money disintegrating in your pocket or bank. That's why you don't use wheat; it can rot or be eaten by insects. Just last year I saw a news report of a woman in China who had her life savings in paper money. When she went to dip into it to make a ourchase, she discovered it had been eaten by mice. She was only able to recoup a small portion.
 
It must be divisible, which is why you don't use diamonds or artwork; they can't be split into pieces without destroying the value of the whole.
 
The lack of fungibility (consistency) is why you can't use real estate. One piece is always different from another piece.
 
It must be convenient, which is why you don't use other metals like lead. The coins would have to be too big to handle easily to be of sufficient value.

All great points. Except... you know, plenty of things are more durable than gold. Plenty are more divisible. Plenty are more fungible. And plenty are more convenient.


It must have value in and of itself. This is why you shouldn't use paper as money. As Mike Maloney is so fond of saying, "paper currencies had more value to them before they ruined them by putting all that ink on them". And it's true. You can't even write a grocery list on them, ....and the new plastic bills are even worse.If you accidently forget one in your pocket, and run it through the wash, ...you can forget it surviving a tumble in the dryer. The value of GOLD will always be at least equal to the value of the labour used to extract it.

As for "having value in and of itself" gold is just a metal. It's got no value "in and of itself" other than the value that we ascribe to it. So if that's a criterion for money, then gold fails.


And one more thing: It can't be created out of thin air. Not even the kings and emperors who clipped and diluted gold coins used paper as money, so Aristotle didn't include this in his list, but it's vital.

Glenn Seaborg did it in a particle accelerator. Not out of thin air, but almost.
 

So you see, there's no superstition here. It's simply common sense. Gold is particularly good for use as money, just as aluminum is good for making aircraft, steel is good for the structures of buildings, uranium is good for fueling nuclear power plants, and paper is good for making books. However, if you try to make airplanes out of lead or money out of paper, you're in for a nasty crash.  Shocked

It's "particularly good" mostly because of its historical legacy. All the other qualities you list are qualities that many different things possess. Some to a greater degree than gold.


And by the way, don't fret about those like Warren Buffett or Charlie Munger who say GOLD is not as good an asset as an income-producing vehicle.

I don't.


They misunderstand the role of precious metals (as evidenced by Buffett's nearly losing his shirt back in the 80's when he tried his play). GOLD is not trying to be a stock, for example. GOLD's function is as money, and a store of value, so the proper comparison is to your dollars, your FRNs, or what you call Treasury Bills (of similar nominal value). And here is where GOLD excels and serves it's purpose: since 1913, the FRN has lost 98% of its purchasing power. GOLD has lost none.

Yes... Warren Buffett, one of the best and most successful investors of all time "misunderstands" the role of precious metals, and some idiot marketing plastic cards is here to set him straight. Roll Eyes
 

Remember, GOLD is the only financial asset that is not simultaneously someone else's liability.
GOLD doesn't require the backing of any bank or government.

Stop lying, because by your definition, so are platinum, silver, rhodium, palladium.


Another of gold's roles is to protect your purchasing power. Here are a few examples of how gold's purchasing power has endured:

Right, gold has been pretty good for protecting against inflation. But that's not because of any intrinsic property of gold. Only because of properties we ascribe to it. Platinum could serve the same purpose.

 
What colour is your money? The colour of MY money is GOLD!!!

I'm sorry, is this waterpainting class?

 
Like most conscious & aware people, I'm concerned about the current state of fiscal and monetary affairs. It seems our government leaders have boxed themselves into a corner. They've incurred too much debt and are spending too much money. It's important that we understand some lessons from history about this kind of behavior so that we're certain of what gold can do for us.

You're concerned, but not enough to educate yourself. You read some stuff which you half-understand and then regurgitate it, getting facts wrong and making an ass out of yourself.

 
The monetary base has grown 200+ %, while gold's price is up 66%. This alone implies that gold's price in dollars is likely to climb much higher.

The trendlines speak volume...

 
This is also the reason why gold is not in a bubble, as some have tried to claim. It is the central banks and bond markets that are in a bubble. The fact that gold's price has so dramatically risen is a warning that what our leaders are doing is unsustainable and dangerous to our currency.

You keep crying yourself to sleep singing that tune.
 
And now to eat my breakfast bagel.
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« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2013, 02:12:58 AM »

You are advocating the purchase of gold as a long-term store of value and believe that purchasing it in tiny amounts makes financial sense. It doesn't. Get back to use with this "transaction friendly weights" nonsense when Karatbars are actually widely accepted as payment.

Right, and?

Right and?

I've never had a problem spending a $100 or a $50.

I don't trust "gold accounts". I only trust gold. Isn't that what this is all about?

Neither does a regular MasterCard debit card.

You do realize that there are other Euro-denominated MasterCards, right?

I very much doubt that, as per MasterCard requirements all credit and debit cards have a maximum daily limit for purchases, as stipulated in the agreement that vendors who wish to issue MasterCard branded cards must sign.

The only exception are the "secured" cards in the MasterCard lineup, which basically function as a glorified cashier's check. You deposit all the money you want to spend onto the card, and then you can spend it. That's great and all, if you don't mind depositing money today to maybe spend tomorrow. I don't think such an arrangement makes financial sense.
 
I thought that we frown on liquidating our gold for purchases... what gives?

To each their own. I find it gaudy and ostentatious.

The only card I have which has a fee is an American Express - a fee that American Express has waived each and every year for the past 18 years. And I get free airport lounge access which is a nice perk. Oh, and remember the bit about buying a house? That's what an American Express card is for... my card doesn't have a spending limit.

If your card is denominated in Euros then anytime you use it to make a purchase in a currency other than Euros the MasterCard network will internally convert the transaction. There's no getting around that. It's not a function of the card, it's a function of the network. If you're going to make up a story about how you don't get charged fees, at least make it a plausible one: "I get reimbursed for currency conversion fees!" seems like a reasonable approach.

So you think that the people who issue this branded MasterCard don't have access to view that you made a purchase at Amazon.com? That's funny... are you really that naive?

Of course Federal Reserve Notes don't enjoy legal tender status. A nation (like the United States) cannot make its currency legal tender anywhere except for its own territory. Why is this surprising? The Euro isn't legal tender in Kentucky. The Yuan isn't legal tender in France. The Rupee isn't legal tender in Quebec. The Yen isn't legal tender in New Zealand.

And you know the kicker? Gold isn't legal tender anywhere.

[Also: LOL @ HR77... you are a joker.]

So your complain is that a foreign store doesn't accept dollars? I have no problem with that. If they want to accept it, then great. If they don't, then great.

It doesn't seem unusual to me at all.

There are many reasons why he could give you a better rate - including the most obvious one but the conversion could be skipped. But ignore all that and pretend, without any evidence whatsoever that it's because "The Sheraton Centre" doesn't like USD, why don't you?
 
You see "increased physical demand" where? Do you have some insight into the gold bullion market that others don't? The spot price of gold doesn't have anything to do with ETFs. It is the price for bullion.

You believe many things. But beliefs are, by and large, meaningless. Can you rationally defend your beliefs and substantiate them with facts? Don't worry about answering that... it was a rhetorical question.

See above...

You know jewelers and gold dealers who say nine-hundred and ninety-nine percent pure? Really? DAMN... That's quite insane.

I see no evidence that the country isn't allowing me to think. And please, be careful. Words have meaning.


Yes. Let's.

Really? You mean besides having atomic number 79? This will be good.

Bullshit. Platinum cannot be printed, counterfeited or inflated. Rhodium cannot be printed, counterfeited or inflated. Copper cannot be printed, counterfeited or inflated. Silicon cannot be printed, counterfeited or inflated. Oxygen cannot be printed, counterfeited or inflated.

So there are plenty of elements which meet all those requirements. Strike one!

And some sidenotes: First, you are aware that gold can be created using particle accelerators, right? Glenn Seaborg transmuted lead into gold, in the process of transmuting lead into another element; it is a completely impractical and ludicrously expensive method but it does exist. Second, a scale isn't always enough; you almost certainly need more advanced tools than a scale, like a mass spectrographs to be sure you aren't getting fooled.

For your information, a mixture of nitric acid and hydrochloric acid will dissolve gold quite readily. But let's not get too chemical up in this hizzouse! Back to debunking your silliness.

Platinum and titanium both melt at over 3,000 F, so they're better than gold in that respect. Neither of them rust or tarnish and platinum is, in fact, less reactive that gold. And both remain recognizable.

So there's at least two other elements that meet all these requirements. Strike two!

Platinum is an inert transition metal. It requires no feeding, fertilizing or maintenance. Titanium is another transition metal. It also requires no feeding, fertilizing or maintenance.

So there are at least two elements that meet all those requirements. Strike three! You're out!
 
That's a funny way to define "time limit". But OK...

Platinum and titanium also have no time limit using that same definition. They also have no counterparty risk. And they never "expire".

So there are at least two elements that meet all those requirements. You were out already but Strike Four! OUT! OUT!

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, platinum is considerably more ductile than gold while being only slightly less malleable.

So there is at least one element that meet the requirements. Strike five! Why are you still here?

The market for all precious metals is liquid, but I wouldn't say precious metals are easily convertible to cash. The market for non-precious metals is, of course, even more liquid. Look at copper for example. Or aluminum.

Platinum is equally "portable" by your definition, but really, everything pales when compared to things like debit and credit cards.

Platinum is equally "divisible" although you are limited in how easily you can divide things. You can't cut a gold coin in half. You can "virtually" do so with debit and credit cards.

Just about any physical element is "consistent" using your definition.

And as for privacy, sure, nobody has to know, but then again, nobody has to know you're buying German scheisse porn either.

So much for gold being the only element. Strike six! You have been out and are now further out still.
 
Platinum is internationally accepted, lasts for thousands of years and you can't make more of it either.
 
Anything that people want to use as money is money. In fact, the word currency means... (wait for it): "a system of money in general use in a particular country."

They are a token. The only difference is that in the gold system you advocate, the little plastic cards are both the token and the value.

Oh boy...

All great points. Except... you know, plenty of things are more durable than gold. Plenty are more divisible. Plenty are more fungible. And plenty are more convenient.

As for "having value in and of itself" gold is just a metal. It's got no value "in and of itself" other than the value that we ascribe to it. So if that's a criterion for money, then gold fails.


Glenn Seaborg did it in a particle accelerator. Not out of thin air, but almost.
 

It's "particularly good" mostly because of its historical legacy. All the other qualities you list are qualities that many different things possess. Some to a greater degree than gold.


I don't.


Yes... Warren Buffett, one of the best and most successful investors of all time "misunderstands" the role of precious metals, and some idiot marketing plastic cards is here to set him straight. Roll Eyes
 

Stop lying, because by your definition, so are platinum, silver, rhodium, palladium.


Right, gold has been pretty good for protecting against inflation. But that's not because of any intrinsic property of gold. Only because of properties we ascribe to it. Platinum could serve the same purpose.

 
I'm sorry, is this waterpainting class?

 
You're concerned, but not enough to educate yourself. You read some stuff which you half-understand and then regurgitate it, getting facts wrong and making an ass out of yourself.

 
The trendlines speak volume...

 
You keep crying yourself to sleep singing that tune.
 
And now to eat my breakfast bagel.


...blah, blah blah

{sigh}  {giggle} You are such a bellicose little bastard brat!!!

There is much I could address in your little diatribe, but I won't even bother. Your determination to nit-pick, twist, misconstrue & misinterpret my statements,  while you grasp at any possible straw is all too readily apparent, ...and wise counsel has long said one should never throw pearls in front of swine, so I shall preserve my pearls of wisdom for those with the eyes to see and the ears to hear.

The bottom line is you think Aristotle was an idiot. You think debt backed by debt, based on debt, dependent on debt, and leveraged with debt makes good, sound, financial sense. That's your perogative I suppose. I simply don't agree.

I will however clarify a previous analogy I gave using soap to illustrate the merit of smaller, transaction friendly weights of gold, and the advantages they provide over bulk purchases of larger weights.

Soap will be priced higher when you purchase it in the form of a 1 lb bar, than if you were to purchase it in the form of a 1000 lb bar.

Ya, you could probably get a significant discount for buying a 1000 lb  bar of soap in a bulk purchase, but good luck trying to take a shower with it. The same goes for GOLD. 1,000 individual grams will always be priced higher than a 1 kilo bar, ...but again, good luck buying a bag of groceries or filling up a fuel tank with 2 different merchants, with that same 1 kilo bar.

I hope you enjoyed your breakfast bagel.

So tell me little piglet, did you have it with cream cheese? smoked salmon? or just butter? lightly toasted perhaps?
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