Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim

[Dos Equis]

Fear of an intruder trying to enter your house at 4 a.m. and/or trying to harm you or your loved one. 

[Jack T. Cross]

Fear of an intruder trying to enter your house at 4 a.m. and/or trying to harm you or your loved one.  

Okay...then concern for his fiancee's safety should enter into it, without a doubt.

[Jack T. Cross]

Obviously, the act of knocking is generally associated with the seeking of a response, so I wonder if either of them replied in any way.

[Dos Equis]

Obviously, the act of knocking is generally associated with the seeking of a response, so I wonder if either of them replied in any way.

More associated with fear than anything else.  Most people are in a dead sleep at 4 a.m., so being woken up by a doorbell and someone trying to open the door has to be startling. 

[Jack T. Cross]

More associated with fear than anything else.  Most people are in a dead sleep at 4 a.m., so being woken up by a doorbell and someone trying to open the door has to be startling. 

No doubt about it.

But it's said Westbrook knocked, which makes me wonder what, if any, response was directly given to that. Knocking is an attempt at communication, without question.

[Dos Equis]

No doubt about it.

But it's said Westbrook knocked, which makes me wonder what, if any, response was directly given to that. Knocking is an attempt at communication, without question.

I didn't read the knocked part.  I read he rang the doorbell and tried to open the door.  But you have to consider that together with a guy showing up at the house, angry, a week or so beforehand.

[Jack T. Cross]

I didn't read the knocked part.  I read he rang the doorbell and tried to open the door.  But you have to consider that together with a guy showing up at the house, angry, a week or so beforehand.

Yeah, I'd say that event played heavily into this. Seriously so.

I do believe this guy has PTSD or some severe mental problem involving his ability to control himself. Nothing else, but a level of stupidity that is simply unbelievable (defying all sense of self-preservation...that unbelievable), could explain his behavior.

[Dos Equis]

Yeah, I'd say that event played heavily into this. Seriously so.

I do believe this guy has PTSD or some severe mental problem involving his ability to control himself. Nothing else, but a level of stupidity that is simply unbelievable (defying all sense of self-preservation...that unbelievable), could explain his behavior.

I have no idea if he has PTSD or a severe mental problem.  Haven't seen any evidence of that. 

[Jack T. Cross]

I have no idea if he has PTSD or a severe mental problem.  Haven't seen any evidence of that. 

What would you call it?

[240 is Back]

But you have to consider that together with a guy showing up at the house, angry, a week or so beforehand.

I dunno about that.

If anything, that hurts his case.  Introduces some serious motive.  Takes away 100% fear and adds just that 1% of "angry at an unknown person from last week".

If any of this shooting was about "I'm tired of this shit happening" and not about "I'm in fear for my life with only the particulars of this incident".

[Dos Equis]

What would you call it?

Fear.

[Jack T. Cross]

Fear.

So you'd resist starting down any path that would say he acted wrongly (but not necessarily illegally, as he probably was legitimately fearful at the time he pulled the trigger)...but that he acted in a way that would suggest something is severely wrong with him.

[Dos Equis]

So you'd resist starting down any path that would say he acted wrongly (and not necessarily illegally, as he probably was legitimately fearful at the time he pulled the trigger)...but that he acted in a way that would suggest something is severely wrong with him.

I don't think he did anything wrong or illegal.  I think he should have stayed inside, but that's because I know the only threat was an elderly man with Alzheimer's.  That's not information he had at the time. 

I haven't seen anything to suggest he has something severely wrong with him. 

[Jack T. Cross]

I don't think he did anything wrong or illegal.  I think he should have stayed inside, but that's because I know the only threat was an elderly man with Alzheimer's.  That's not information he had at the time. 

I haven't seen anything to suggest he has something severely wrong with him. 

Is it fair to say, do you think, that the fears he would likely have outside, would be the same as the fears he would have inside?

[Dos Equis]

Is it fair to say, do you think, that the fears he would likely have outside, would be the same as the fears he would have inside?

The fear was someone trying to enter his house and harm him and/or his fiancé.  Same inside or outside. 

[Jack T. Cross]

The fear was someone trying to enter his house and harm him and/or his fiancé.  Same inside or outside.  

So we're talking about being shot, potentially by a gun the intruder may have, or even by his own gun, or stabbed...happening to either himself or his fiancee. Would you say that's the scope of realistic possibility?

[Dos Equis]

So we're talking about being shot, potentially by a gun the intruder may have, or even by his own gun, or stabbed...happening to either himself or his fiancee. Would you say that's the scope of realistic possibility?

Shot, stabbed, punched, kicked, slapped, hit with a bat, robbed, raped, murdered, etc., etc.  What else would you expect an intruder to do? 

[Jack T. Cross]

Shot, stabbed, punched, kicked, slapped, hit with a bat, robbed, raped, murdered, etc., etc.  What else would you expect an intruder to do?  

You're not saying that fear of being slapped should initiate an act of deadly force, are you?

[Dos Equis]

You're not saying that fear of being slapped should initiate an act of deadly force, are you?

Dude.  No.  Just describing the various ways someone can be attacked.

[Jack T. Cross]

Dude.  No.  Just describing the various ways someone can be attacked.

When thinking about a mentally healthy, reasonable person, who is armed and in such a situation as this, I'd like to know what scope of possibility he should consider, as it relates to fear.

[Jack T. Cross]

I'm talking about specific, physical harm.

[Dos Equis]

The specific ways someone can be attacked and injured or killed is not confined to some box.  Nor does it really matter.  I doubt most people lay awake thinking about the various ways they can be attacked in their home and on their property.  When someone decides to keep a weapon for protection, it's to protect them from a threat, however that threat presents itself.  What you're talking about is minutiae.

[Jack T. Cross]

The specific ways someone can be attacked and injured or killed is not confined to some box.  Nor does it really matter.  I doubt most people lay awake thinking about the various ways they can be attacked in their home and on their property.  When someone decides to keep a weapon for protection, it's to protect them from a threat, however that threat presents itself.  What you're talking about is minutiae.

You wouldn't say that such self-protection laws cause it to matter, and very much so?

[Jack T. Cross]

...he could fearfully imagine being run over by a bus the intruder was somehow concealing, but of course that would be an unrealistic fear. Right?

Seems to me there is a very small scope of possibility. Would you agree or disagree?

[Jack T. Cross]

BTW: I believe the man was legitimately fearful when he shot Westbrook.

Right now, I'm referring to his mental health. That's it.