The offseason myth

[Cleanest Natural]

I grew up like all of you with the Flex magazine bullshit and the lies from the videos. Oh well...

The ideea of bulking, then cutting for a show. It never made sense to me but who am I to dispute. I did notice the occasional oddity who grew into a show.

My last transformation I did slim down without drugs, as much as I was able to, then hopped on a stack. Disgusted encouraged me and helped me with pointers. As you all know, when you diet strict you become paranoic and don't think clear  

 The results were much much better. I think I first became aware of this when gh15 said that it is much better to start a cycle at a low bodyfat. And it is.

The stack is different, and I see no point in doing the test, deca and dbol bulking unless you feel the need to be "big" all the time. Your body recovers better if you go off completely and only use when growing into contest shape or close to that. It's also mentally less taxing to not take hormones all the time. For me at least.

Levrone did it this way, Arnold, Lee Haney and I am sure many others.

[Nomad]

From my personal experience there is a huge difference in body response to drugs when you get under 7-8 bodyfat. If you are above 10 don't even bother; you might as well be pissing away the drugs into water bloat.

[O.Z.]

I grew up like all of you with the Flex magazine bullshit and the lies from the videos. Oh well...

The ideea of bulking, then cutting for a show. It never made sense to me but who am I to dispute. I did notice the occasional oddity who grew into a show.

My last transformation I did slim down without drugs, as much as I was able to, then hopped on a stack. Disgusted encouraged me and helped me with pointers. As you all know, when you diet strict you become paranoic and don't think clear  

 The results were much much better. I think I first became aware of this when gh15 said that it is much better to start a cycle at a low bodyfat. And it is.

The stack is different, and I see no point in doing the test, deca and dbol bulking unless you feel the need to be "big" all the time. Your body recovers better if you go off completely and only use when growing into contest shape or close to that. It's also mentally less taxing to not take hormones all the time. For me at least.

Levrone did it this way, Arnold, Lee Haney and I am sure many others.

How low bodyfat wise can you go before starting to use gear? Do you have any pic?

[Cleanest Natural]

How low bodyfat wise can you go before starting to use gear? Do you have any pic?

I posted plenty. I did manage to get to 7% before I started taking hormones. Maybe lower but around that mark.

the mid point picture is missing there .. I started at 190lbs, went down to 158lbs and 6-7% after 2 1/2 months then in 5 weeks blew up to 183lbs which is the end point.

[_aj_]

From my personal experience there is a huge difference in body response to drugs when you get under 7-8 bodyfat. If you are above 10 don't even bother; you might as well be pissing away the drugs into water bloat.

Interesting. I have read other's thoughts that suggest the best BF range for hormone sensitivity is in the 10-12% range. It is quite difficult for a natty to get down to the 8% level, right?

[Cleanest Natural]

Interesting. I have read other's thoughts that suggest the best BF range for hormone sensitivity is in the 10-12% range. It is quite difficult for a natty to get down to the 8% level, right?

The lower the bodyfat when you start, the better. Nattys can get to 6%..just that nobody wants discipline and suffering. I thought it's impossible but Disgusted was adamant that it can be done and he was right.

[O.Z.]

The lower the bodyfat when you start, the better. Nattys can get to 6%..just that nobody wants discipline and suffering. I thought it's impossible but Disgusted was adamant that it can be done and he was right.

What was your diet at the time? Keto? I believe Disgusted advocates carbs when going low with bodyfat.

[Cleanest Natural]

What was your diet at the time? Keto? I believe Disgusted advocates carbs when going low with bodyfat.

lean meats and greens .. no carbs. Disgusted advocates the same.

[kohl]

Test, deca and dbol is excellent and imo still the way to go for a bodybuilder in his first two years of juicing on AAS.

Once you are maxed out size-wise on aas only, it's time to pass on to gh. Once you're there, deca shouldn't be used anymore. EQ and tren take over.

Off season bulk for an aas only bodybuilder is NOT the same as off season bulk for an advanced bodybuilder (+5IU gh ED, slin and high test).

The first will have a much higher BF % then the latter, who will have more water retention and estrogen moosh then actual fat (unless he doesn't know how to use adjust his diet to his slin use, but then he's not advanced imo).

[kreator]

your insulin sensitivity in skeletal muscles is higher at lower body fat levels thus cells  absorb nutrients at a much better rate

[oldtimer1]

Zane, Franco, Arnold and many of the old school guys gained weight approaching a contest. It seems many guys now lose weight.

 The only old school guy that seemed close to the same all year round was Robby. That's why I believe him when he says he didn't know about steroids when he competed in Florida but used when he learned about them in California. He always said he used less than what the rest of the gang were using. True? I don't know. I only know is that for close to 50 years this guy has been in incredible shape.

[Nasty Nate]

have to agree with OP and offseason bulking. its less healthy as well instead of just blasting for a show then cruising, instead of blimping up

[macos]

Bulked up year round bodybuilders do a lot of damage to the organs.

[anabolichalo]

so what about the need of caloric surplus for muscle growth

[Cleanest Natural]

I tried both aproaches. The growing into shows makes a lot more sense to me. I know the vast amjority, "bulk up" then diet down, "lift heavy and eat big to get big" and this type of nonsense.

[CalvinH]

I posted plenty. I did manage to get to 7% before I started taking hormones. Maybe lower but around that mark.

the mid point picture is missing there .. I started at 190lbs, went down to 158lbs and 6-7% after 2 1/2 months then in 5 weeks blew up to 183lbs which is the end point.

How was your energy level when you got that light?

[che]

It is quite difficult for a natty to get down to the 8% level, right?

It's very easy for me.

[monstermunch]

so what about the need of caloric surplus for muscle growth

I ponder this too ana...

[DroppingPlates]

so what about the need of caloric surplus for muscle growth

That's a mandatory, consume slightly more calories  than your maintenance level, say 100-200 extra. Pay close attention to your bodyfat, keep it lower than 10-12%.

[Tedim]

I have never been able to get sub 7-8% even with a ridiculous diet and cardio.....I can get down to 8-10 with some discomfort but usually stay 10-12 year round, with test I'm sure I can get to 8 and stay there comfortably....but the hollow feeling and hypoglycemia wrecks havoc on me.

and I don't think I want to go sub 8......at some point vascularity becomes a disgusting deformity

Edit: but truthfully closer to the 12% mark 

[El Diablo Blanco]

What is in this stack you mentioned?

[kreator]

I have never been able to get sub 7-8% even with a ridiculous diet and cardio.....I can get down to 8-10 with some discomfort but usually stay 10-12 year round, with test I'm sure I can get to 8 and stay there comfortably....but the hollow feeling and hypoglycemia wrecks havoc on me.

and I don't think I want to go sub 8......at some point vascularity becomes a disgusting deformity

Edit: but truthfully closer to the 12% mark 

cardio sucks for preservation of muscle mass, sprints are far better and do them in intervals, just take a look at a marathon runner and a sprinter, you'll see the difference

[dustin]

If you get fat, you get fat.

That's why I bulk up slowly and put on lean mass, only allowing for a small bit of adipose to accumulate. Getting absolutely swollen does nothing unless you're on a boatload of drugs to gain the weight and cut it down. But that's the worst way and I don't advocate that at all. I just wish I knew that years ago so I didn't spend so much time being fat.

[wes]

You can`t flex fat!!

Build muscle over time.

"Bulking" is an archaic term that is just another excuse to eat like shit in order to get the scale to budge........the mirror doesn`t lie.

As far as calories go,they don`t build muscle..........macronut rients do.

[wild willie]

I grew up like all of you with the Flex magazine bullshit and the lies from the videos. Oh well...

The ideea of bulking, then cutting for a show. It never made sense to me but who am I to dispute. I did notice the occasional oddity who grew into a show.

My last transformation I did slim down without drugs, as much as I was able to, then hopped on a stack. Disgusted encouraged me and helped me with pointers. As you all know, when you diet strict you become paranoic and don't think clear  

 The results were much much better. I think I first became aware of this when gh15 said that it is much better to start a cycle at a low bodyfat. And it is.

The stack is different, and I see no point in doing the test, deca and dbol bulking unless you feel the need to be "big" all the time. Your body recovers better if you go off completely and only use when growing into contest shape or close to that. It's also mentally less taxing to not take hormones all the time. For me at least.

Levrone did it this way, Arnold, Lee Haney and I am sure many others.

yes.....growing into a show makes very good sense......franco and flavio baccianini also grew into shows.