Mike Mentzer - Was he really 225 lbs in 1980?

[MAXX]

[Vince B]

Looking back over my training I think the biggest mistake I made was training to failure all the time. I would read everything I could on Arthur Jones, Darden and Mentzer.

 Every set would take me close to death. It's a stupid way to train leading to burn out. Imagine if you were a runner and you mapped out a 3 mile course. Would every single training day would you try to beat your previous time?  If you were a beginner that could be an accepted protocol but for an experience lifter it's nuts.  

For almost 40 years I kept a training journal. I found working out like a lunatic without drugs I would burn out in 3 to 4 weeks needing a week off. Don't get me wrong I made good progress but taking every set to failure trying to get one more rep or another pound on the bar takes a toll.

In the past I would watch guys train that didn't use a low set HIT routine and terminating their sets prior to true positive failure thinking they didn't have a work ethic. Now I realize training to failure is a tool and it shouldn't be the only method used. I think think sets should so something like this.4 sets of 10. The first 3 should be hard but not killer. The last could be failure. So first set you might be able to get 15 but you stop at 10. Second maybe you could get 13 but stop at 10. The third maybe 11 but you stop at 10. Your last set you fail at 9 reps. This gets all the muscle fibers. If you do one set to failure you are not getting all the muscle fibers.

Sad to say but Mike, Arthur and Ellington are not right about training. Volume is needed. It all comes down to accumulated time under tension for an hypertrophy response. So training to so-called total failure is a short cut to getting some serious tension. It is much safer to accumulate the time under tension by doing many more sets. 10 reps isn't so good for a pump, either. Start with 20 reps and by the third maximum set your reps will be down to about 12. Big muscles are good for doing lots of sets with a reasonable resistance. So that is exactly how you have to train for hypertrophy. I was influenced by Jones and company but also incorporated what Larry Scott advocated. I ended up doing about 7 total sets including warmup sets for a maximum pump. That wasn't enough sets. 6 or 7 sets with the maximum resistance is much more effective. Going to failure is okay, but not the extreme version of it. I always go to the point where no more movement is possible. That is safe as long as the muscle is thoroughly warmed up. Unless you are accumulating plenty of those hard final reps there is no stimulus for the muscle to grow further. The bigger you get the more difficult it is to get them even bigger.

[BIG AL MCKECHNIE]

Look at Mike's left trap, deltoid and arm and then look at his right. Huge difference in size and symmetry.

[oldtimer1]

I use to hear Bill Pearl say don't train to failure all the time. I thought he was nuts but he is right on target. He basically said no one can train to failure without quitting due to exhaustion to give yourself a break. Olympic lifters and Power lifters cycle their training to the that one or two rep failure. Why do bodybuilders think every lift has to be to the red line of the tach? Bill Pearl even said if you are doing your sets and you don't hit your rep goal lower the weight. In the HIT world that is blasphemy. I'm a worth ethic driven person and the Mentzer/Jones just played into my misguided mentality.

Basile what you wrote, " Big muscles are good for doing lots of sets with a reasonable resistance. So that is exactly how you have to train for hypertrophy" hits it on the head. A bodybuilding muscle for lack of a better term is for muscular endurance. Not to be confused with cardio endurance.

[sagittal chest]

No comparison imo.

Arnold owns him in every way - 'density' included. (oh brother)

[anab0lic]

Sad to say but Mike, Arthur and Ellington are not right about training. Volume is needed. It all comes down to accumulated time under tension for an hypertrophy response. So training to so-called total failure is a short cut to getting some serious tension. It is much safer to accumulate the time under tension by doing many more sets. 10 reps isn't so good for a pump, either. Start with 20 reps and by the third maximum set your reps will be down to about 12. Big muscles are good for doing lots of sets with a reasonable resistance. So that is exactly how you have to train for hypertrophy. I was influenced by Jones and company but also incorporated what Larry Scott advocated. I ended up doing about 7 total sets including warmup sets for a maximum pump. That wasn't enough sets. 6 or 7 sets with the maximum resistance is much more effective. Going to failure is okay, but not the extreme version of it. I always go to the point where no more movement is possible. That is safe as long as the muscle is thoroughly warmed up. Unless you are accumulating plenty of those hard final reps there is no stimulus for the muscle to grow further. The bigger you get the more difficult it is to get them even bigger.

And then we have Dorian Yates, who is living proof that everything you just said is compete bullshit.

[Eric2]

And then we have Dorian Yates, who is living proof that everything you just said is compete bullshit.

True to a point, yet Dorian was massive first from the old more traditional methods. Once he took on the heavy duty approach he gained even more to which i would say is more akin to the body doing something different than the same ol and that can lead to more growth. Lets also look at the train wreck he became from all of his injuries from using heavy duty for so hard and long, his body was literaly wasted from it. throw him on the trash heap he is done. probably cannot even look good with his shirt off now. Take a guy like Bill Grant who is in his 60s trained with volume still does and has a great build to this day.

[Viking11]

The chronology is off. He did start using amphetamines in 1980 to help him with energy for training while on a very strict diet (he went as low as 800 calories due to a slow metabolism) and with writing as associate editor for M&F.  He later - mid 80s escalated his use when working 16 hour days editing Workout magazine.  (Mike was a bit of a workaholic.) Just as the magazine started to show a profit, the backer (a porn publisher) pulled the financial backing.  His dad died around that time and long time fiancée Cathy Gelfo broke it off as well. Emotional triple whammy+ drugs = not good mental state. Ask Syd Barrett.

[anab0lic]

True to a point, yet Dorian was massive first from the old more traditional methods. Once he took on the heavy duty approach he gained even more to which i would say is more akin to the body doing something different than the same ol and that can lead to more growth. Lets also look at the train wreck he became from all of his injuries from using heavy duty for so hard and long, his body was literaly wasted from it. throw him on the trash heap he is done. probably cannot even look good with his shirt off now. Take a guy like Bill Grant who is in his 60s trained with volume still does and has a great build to this day.

Dorian was never a high volume guy really, he did slightly more in his early days but at most he was maybe what some would say moderate volume....and he got stuck training that way, couldnt get any bigger, it wasnt until he met Mentzer took what he learnt there (reduced volume further added more intensity) and applied with his own spin on a few things was he able to get bigger.   Tbh he probably could have reached the size he got to faster if he had just trained that way from the beginning.  And he only got injured pushing himself too hard when dieting down...trying to grow whilst getting lean...so there is a lesson to learnt there for sure.

[Pet shop boys]

 



WooooSSHHHHHHHHHH

[Pet shop boys]

you can see that during the contest, Mentzer thought he was the best man on stage




WoooSSHHHHHHHHHH

[The Wrong Advices]

Arnold's face looks so harsh. Must have been the crash "prep".

[ProudVirgin69]

Arnold's face looks so harsh. Must have been the crash "prep".

Arnold looked great in 1980... his second-best showing ever

[Eric2]

Mike had a great build. In his best he was awesome looking. Mike also knew that as good as he could ever be Arnold was a magician with a gifted body, the best to ever Grace the stage. Here is what Mike said when Arnold announced he was going to compete in the 1980 Olympia right before the show. "How can Arnold be allowed to compete if we did not know he was going to compete?!"  Mike was mad for two reasons. First he thought Arnold was retired and out of the way,no more threat. Secondly Mike was not mentally prepared to take on Arnold, he was defeated before it started.

[The Grim Lifter]

Sad to say but Mike, Arthur and Ellington are not right about training. Volume is needed. It all comes down to accumulated time under tension for an hypertrophy response. So training to so-called total failure is a short cut to getting some serious tension. It is much safer to accumulate the time under tension by doing many more sets. 10 reps isn't so good for a pump, either. Start with 20 reps and by the third maximum set your reps will be down to about 12. Big muscles are good for doing lots of sets with a reasonable resistance. So that is exactly how you have to train for hypertrophy. I was influenced by Jones and company but also incorporated what Larry Scott advocated. I ended up doing about 7 total sets including warmup sets for a maximum pump. That wasn't enough sets. 6 or 7 sets with the maximum resistance is much more effective. Going to failure is okay, but not the extreme version of it. I always go to the point where no more movement is possible. That is safe as long as the muscle is thoroughly warmed up. Unless you are accumulating plenty of those hard final reps there is no stimulus for the muscle to grow further. The bigger you get the more difficult it is to get them even bigger.

You're a fucking dickhead

[Vince B]

It is always refreshing to hear from true authorities!

Arthur did say something important re bodybuilding. Build strength, don't demonstrate it. High Intensity Training is dangerous for connective tissue and muscles. Simple as that. Arnold and Larry did volume training and didn't tear any muscles. A few intense sets with a heavy resistance is a recipe for an injury. Do lots of sets with 10+ reps and you should be fine.

[THEBOSS]

And then we have Dorian Yates, who is living proof that everything you just said is compete bullshit.

But DOZ looks more like a body destroyer now then a body builder ? Likewise for RON !

[calfzilla]

Who lived longer Mentzer or the Oak? 

[anabolichalo]

it's so funny to me mentzer ever thought he was worthy of the title

must have been all them drug fueled delusions

[Vince B]

Frank Zane won three Olympias and Mike felt he was better than Frank. That is hardly delusional. Zane was over rated and lucky to win so many titles.

[visualizeperfection]

Frank Zane won three Olympias and Mike felt he was better than Frank. That is hardly delusional. Zane was over rated and lucky to win so many titles.

[Sam]

Arnold wins

[Ropo]

And then we have Dorian Yates, who is living proof that everything you just said is compete bullshit.

There is more than one way to build muscles, and increasing numbers of bodybuilders are training like Vince say, because it is safe and efficient. Dorian Yates and Ronnie are good examples of builders, who have lot of injuries which decrease the points in competition. Count the injuries from Arnold or Haney? These guys were training smartly, and how many Mr. Olympia's they win? Can you even count numbers so large?

[oldgolds]

Without drugs they all look like crap....
A guy who can build muscle without drugs is the person who truly knows how to train. You guys are all delusional.

[Dokey111]

Without drugs they all look like crap....
A guy who can build muscle without drugs is the person who truly knows how to train. You guys are all delusional.

right.  problem is, you can't