Author Topic: Tennessee atheists win right to distribute literature after schools give Bibles  (Read 88837 times)

Agnostic007

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Why not just tell the chaplain directly?  Seems like the adult thing to do.

And someone getting offended because a chaplain talks about or references God or religion is pretty dang stupid.  (Not calling you stupid.)  

No worries, I'm not offended. I understand that there are people that don't see a problem with government employees participating in a mandatory meeting/function being subjected to an agent of our government advocating for a particular religion.  I find it unnecessary and poor judgment as well as a separation of church and state issue, but that's because I'm routinely one of those non believers that are subjected that it.  I'm pretty sure if I agreed with their religion I'd probably welcome the interaction, but I don't and not everyone else does.    And I think the "offended" word is probably misused in this instance. A person can feel that it's inappropriate for religion to be entered into a government interaction without being "offended" by it. I'm not offended by a white male telling a racial joke at the water cooler, but I certainly think it's inappropriate

Dos Equis

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No worries, I'm not offended. I understand that there are people that don't see a problem with government employees participating in a mandatory meeting/function being subjected to an agent of our government advocating for a particular religon.  I find it unneccessary and poor judgment as well as a seperation of church and state issue, but that's because I'm routinely one of those non believers that are subjected that it.  I'm pretty sure if I agreed with their religion I'd probably welcome the interaction, but I don't and not everyone else does.   

The government employee is a chaplain.  Chaplains in the military have to be members of an organized religion.  Anyone talking to a chaplain should not be surprised if the chaplain talks about or references God.   

I think if someone doesn't want to talk about religion, they shouldn't.  If there is something written about religion and they don't want to read it, they shouldn't.  This hypersensitivity is just way overboard. 

Agnostic007

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The government employee is a chaplain.  Chaplains in the military have to be members of an organized religion.  Anyone talking to a chaplain should not be surprised if the chaplain talks about or references God.   

I think if someone doesn't want to talk about religion, they shouldn't.  If there is something written about religion and they don't want to read it, they shouldn't.  This hypersensitivity is just way overboard. 

Chaplians in the military can talk about their religion at their services, or any place members congregate for the purpose of sharing religious experiences, or religious information. 

Dos Equis

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Chaplians in the military can talk about their religion at their services, or any place members congregate for the purpose of sharing religious experiences, or religious information. 

Or anytime they meet with anyone, because their entire job revolves around religion.

Agnostic007

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Or anytime they meet with anyone, because their entire job revolves around religion.

I agree it does, but they often portray themselves as counselors which gets them in the door. We have chaplains at our department. They are supposed to counsel with members of the department who seek them out. Typically people seek out the chaplains that represent their particular belief system. That's cool with me. We also have non religious counselors. But when it is a mandatory setting with various beliefs or lack of beliefs, they need to keep their counselor hat on, and leave their preacher hat at the door. if they can't do that, they need to recuse themselves.   Just the same as if a non religious counselor started talking about the benefits of being atheist or agnostic at a mandatory government gathering, I would also think it inappropriate.   

Dos Equis

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I agree it does, but they often portray themselves as counselors which gets them in the door. We have chaplains at our department. They are supposed to counsel with members of the department who seek them out. Typically people seek out the chaplains that represent their particular belief system. That's cool with me. We also have non religious counselors. But when it is a mandatory setting with various beliefs or lack of beliefs, they need to keep their counselor hat on, and leave their preacher hat at the door. if they can't do that, they need to recuse themselves.   Just the same as if a non religious counselor started talking about the benefits of being atheist or agnostic at a mandatory government gathering, I would also think it inappropriate.   

They are counselors. 

I really don't understand why some people are so hypersensitive about something they don't believe in.  I've had numerous lengthy discussions with people of other faiths (and no faith), attended other religious services, participated in Buddhist prayers, etc.  I don't share their beliefs, but I was not offended at all.  It's really not that hard to listen to, or ignore, something you don't believe in. 

Agnostic007

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They are counselors. 

I really don't understand why some people are so hypersensitive about something they don't believe in.  I've had numerous lengthy discussions with people of other faiths (and no faith), attended other religious services, participated in Buddhist prayers, etc.  I don't share their beliefs, but I was not offended at all.  It's really not that hard to listen to, or ignore, something you don't believe in. 

 I don't understand it either, until I mention to someone who is talking to me assuming I share their personal belief that I don't. I witness hypersensitivity shortly thereafter in most cases when they can't fathom how I can ignore the overwhelming evidence and not believe as they do.   

Dos Equis

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I don't understand it either, until I mention to someone who is talking to me assuming I share their personal belief that I don't. I witness hypersensitivity shortly thereafter in most cases when they can't fathom how I can ignore the overwhelming evidence and not believe as they do.   

Oh come on.  You know you're exaggerating.  How many times have you seen people go complain to their boss, file a lawsuit, contact the media, enlist an advocacy group, etc. because someone wasn't receptive to just listening to their religious views? 

Agnostic007

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Oh come on.  You know you're exaggerating.  How many times have you seen people go complain to their boss, file a lawsuit, contact the media, enlist an advocacy group, etc. because someone wasn't receptive to just listening to their religious views? 

In that regard, when you are holding all the cards, there is no need to complain. How many times have people sat through boring relgious rituals at government functions and not complained? Every single day 

Dos Equis

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In that regard, when you are holding all the cards, there is no need to complain. How many times have people sat through boring relgious rituals at government functions and not complained? Every single day 

My question was somewhat rhetorical, because the answer is clearly "no."  Never happens. 

I have sat through countless invocations.  Most of them are about six seconds or less.  The horror.   :)

Agnostic007

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My question was somewhat rhetorical, because the answer is clearly "no."  Never happens. 

I have sat through countless invocations.  Most of them are about six seconds or less.  The horror.   :)

Speaking of exxagerating.. I've never heard an invocation of 6 seconds or less.. you are very lucky and I am very unlucky I suppose

Dos Equis

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Speaking of exxagerating.. I've never heard an invocation of 6 seconds or less.. you are very lucky and I am very unlucky I suppose

Typo.  Meant "60." 

Agnostic007

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Typo.  Meant "60." 

That's reasonable. Thing is.. for me, it's completely out of place there. It's no different than if before each meeting, or retirement ceremony or graduation a guy in indian attire took to the staget and chanted heyah, heyah, heyah for a minute. Or a muslim took to the stage and kneeled down and started praising allah for a minute.  I'm not really harmed by it. It can be a little annoying, but again, whats the point of doing such a thing before we can begin our business? Entirely unnecessary in my opinion 

Dos Equis

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That's reasonable. Thing is.. for me, it's completely out of place there. It's no different than if before each meeting, or retirement ceremony or graduation a guy in indian attire took to the staget and chanted heyah, heyah, heyah for a minute. Or a muslim took to the stage and kneeled down and started praising allah for a minute.  I'm not really harmed by it. It can be a little annoying, but again, whats the point of doing such a thing before we can begin our business? Entirely unnecessary in my opinion 

Your examples would be more reasonable if those things have been happening since the country's inception. 

I'm glad you said you're not harmed by invocations.  I only find the really long ones a little annoying. 

Agnostic007

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Your examples would be more reasonable if those things have been happening since the country's inception. 

I'm glad you said you're not harmed by invocations.  I only find the really long ones a little annoying. 

The canned ones..well they are all mostly canned ones.. irritate me somewhat because they are meaningless recitals, a ritual.. Bow your heads while we pray... Our father Jesus.. Lord in heaven, we come to you asking that you watch over us.. Father we ask that..blah blah blah.... If God existed, he's gotta puke a little in his mouth everytime he hears it

Dos Equis

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The canned ones..well they are all mostly canned ones.. irritate me somewhat because they are meaningless recitals, a ritual.. Bow your heads while we pray... Our father Jesus.. Lord in heaven, we come to you asking that you watch over us.. Father we ask that..blah blah blah.... If God existed, he's gotta puke a little in his mouth everytime he hears it

That's one way to look at it.  Or you could view it like the ritual of telling your wife or girlfriend you love her every day.  There are lots of expressions of love and respect that are somewhat rote.

Skip8282

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They are counselors. 

I really don't understand why some people are so hypersensitive about something they don't believe in.  I've had numerous lengthy discussions with people of other faiths (and no faith), attended other religious services, participated in Buddhist prayers, etc.  I don't share their beliefs, but I was not offended at all.  It's really not that hard to listen to, or ignore, something you don't believe in. 


True, but that's not the issue here.  The meeting was mandatory, not voluntary.

If you voluntarily put yourself in those situations, and I think we all have, then you don't really have any room to complain about the religion or the services.


Dos Equis

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True, but that's not the issue here.  The meeting was mandatory, not voluntary.

If you voluntarily put yourself in those situations, and I think we all have, then you don't really have any room to complain about the religion or the services.



I don't really see a distinction in this instance.  The guy was given a two-sided handout that had Army resources on one side and references to God and the Bible on the other.  If the Soldier was atheist and didn't want to read about God or the Bible, all he had to do was just ignore the other side of the paper.  We ignore things that don't interest us all the time.  And if it really bothered him, he could have just told the chaplain he had a problem with the other side of the handout.   

Skip8282

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I don't really see a distinction in this instance.  The guy was given a two-sided handout that had Army resources on one side and references to God and the Bible on the other.  If the Soldier was atheist and didn't want to read about God or the Bible, all he had to do was just ignore the other side of the paper.  We ignore things that don't interest us all the time.  And if it really bothered him, he could have just told the chaplain he had a problem with the other side of the handout.   



That's works both ways.  It's just as easy to keep religion out of a mandatory meeting.



Dos Equis

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That's works both ways.  It's just as easy to keep religion out of a mandatory meeting.


Meh.  He's a chaplain.  It's his job to talk about religion.  I would understand if this was a mandatory religious meeting, but that's not what it was.  That kids is just hypersensitive and there are advocacy groups ready to pounce all over trivial stuff like this. 

Agnostic007

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I agree with Skip on this. A mandatory government meeting where the attendees have no choice but to attend, a particular religion should not be advocated whether implied or directly to the group. The Chaplains should know better, but darn it.. they just can't always play by the rules. Cheating for Jesus is acceptable. ;-)

Dos Equis

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I agree with Skip on this. A mandatory government meeting where the attendees have no choice but to attend, a particular religion should not be advocated whether implied or directly to the group. The Chaplains should know better, but darn it.. they just can't always play by the rules. Cheating for Jesus is acceptable. ;-)

Nobody should be indoctrinated, but people shouldn't have to walk on eggshells.  I really think this hypersensitivity is completely illogical.  I cannot imagine getting offended, angry, suffer emotional distress, etc. if someone mentions an entity or concept that I believe is fictitious.  And the fact some atheists have created organizations, hired PR directors, have radio shows, magazines, etc. is . . . irrational.

OzmO

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Nobody should be indoctrinated, but people shouldn't have to walk on eggshells.  I really think this hypersensitivity is completely illogical.  I cannot imagine getting offended, angry, suffer emotional distress, etc. if someone mentions an entity or concept that I believe is fictitious.  And the fact some atheists have created organizations, hired PR directors, have radio shows, magazines, etc. is . . . irrational.


Not when it comes to making money.   Reinforcing people's beliefs is profitable. 

Dos Equis

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Irrational atheist crybabies strike again.   ::)

North Carolina city removes sculpture of soldier kneeling before cross
Published January 11, 2015
FoxNews.com


King city officials voted to remove this sculpture depicting a soldier kneeling in prayer before a cross to settle a lawsuit claiming the artwork promoted Christianity. (WGHP)

Until a few days ago, a war memorial in a public park in North Carolina included a metal sculpture depicting a soldier kneeling in prayer before a cross. But city officials voted to remove the sculpture to settle a lawsuit claiming the artwork promoted Christianity.

King, a small city of about 6,000 people 15 miles north of Winston-Salem, dedicated the memorial about a decade ago. But the statue was removed Tuesday night, immediately after The King city council voted 3-2 to end the lawsuit. Now, an empty hole can be seen where the statue once stood.

MyFox8 in Winston-Salem, reporting on the controversy the other day, said the memorial is on city-owned land but was paid for through private donations.

“Both sides in this matter wish to avoid further costs, and this agreement will ensure that the City of King will not spend additional taxpayers’ funds to continue litigation in federal court,” the city said in a statement after the vote.

As part of the agreement, the King City Council also said it would stop flying the Christian flag over the memorial and would pay $500,000 to Americans United for Separation of Church and State for the legal costs the group incurred bringing the lawsuit on behalf of local Afghanistan War veteran Steven Hewett.

Hewett explained his reasons for suing in November, the Christian News Network reported Saturday. His lawsuit claimed violations of his constitutional rights.

“I proudly served alongside a diverse group of soldiers with a variety of different religious beliefs,” he said in a news release. “The City of King should be honoring everyone who served our country, not using their service as an excuse to promote a single religion.”

The settlement calls for Hewett to be paid $1 in nominal damages.

The Stokes News reported that King’s elected officials were worried about losing the lawsuit and facing higher legal bills, as much as $2 million by one estimate. The city’s insurer also was insisting on a settlement.

“I feel this city has been sabotaged and bullied by folks who don’t believe in what this community stands for,” the newspaper quoted City Councilman Wesley Carter as saying when he voted against the settlement. “I feel like we have been pressured by insurance companies and attorneys who have never been to King. They don’t know what we are about and what this community stands for.”

King’s elected officials incensed veterans groups, churches and others in the city in 2010 when they ordered the removal of the Christian flag from the memorial. As part of a protest, the Christian flag started flying everywhere else in the town, including barbecue joints and hair salons. Eventually the city passed a law establishing a lottery system in which citizens could choose what flag they wanted flown over the memorial, including the Christian flag.

City officials say they will now draw up plans for a new kneeling soldier sculpture that does not include a cross, and will ask residents for their input.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/11/north-carolina-city-removes-sculpture-soldier-kneeling-before-cross/?intcmp=latestnews

Straw Man

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What the fuck is a christian flag?