the Bench Press

[Cavalier22]

Many people say to avoid it nowadays, only a good way to get hurt and not a fluid motion or natural motion for you body.  I'm not sure, i feel as though it hits my chest real hard and is responsiblefor my growth in taht area.   What do you guys think

[Arnold jr]

Many people say to avoid it nowadays, only a good way to get hurt and not a fluid motion or natural motion for you body.  I'm not sure, i feel as though it hits my chest real hard and is responsiblefor my growth in taht area.   What do you guys think

If it works good for you then keep doing it…who cares if it is something a lot of guys don't do anymore.

[Bluto]

if you can do it safe and have no problems with it and get a lot of growth from it by all means continue using it

[pumpster]

If it works and isn't hurting the shoulders, continue.
If it isn't effective, and for many it's not, or is injurious to the joints, find substitutes sooner rather than later-dumbbell incline/flat/decline presses, flat/decline/incline flys, weighted pushups, dips, etc.

[Ledd]

Yeah I hate to admit it but I think I may give it up for awhile myself.  When I was just beginning lifting bench really helped but I have plateued, not going over a certain point for a while now.  Last week I used DB for bench and I got a soreness I havent had in a very long time, and it became fun again because I was doing something different and I wasn't quite sure where I stood with db's.

[onlyme]

Also do allot of heavy triceps.  Your bench will go up some.  I like the bench and feel it in my chest.  For some though it is different.  Franco always said it worked the shoulders and front delt more.

[Ledd]

Yeah today I did db bench, its alot harder for me, my reps were like this 4,6,6,7,8,7 for flat bench.  When I went to incline bb....WOW.  I couldn't lift nearly what I normally do for incline.  I started out with the typical weight I use and I only got it 4 times first, out of a normal 8.  I pushed out another set of the same weight for only 6 reps then 5 reps....last two sets were absolute failure.  Well, I wanted something different and I got it, I only hope I see an increased strength.  I definitely feel it more in the shoulders.

[pumpster]

Your strength will definitely go up as the body adapts to balancing the DBs. However, it's a different exercise so don't expect the exact same poundages to be used. Going to failure is good!

Eventually also try varying the incline of the bench, & try decline DB presses as well as flat/incline/decline flys & pulley flys & crossovers, each for a few weeks to gauge effectiveness.

After that retain the most effective ones and combine them in compound chest supersets, such as DB press followed by pulley flys.

[JPM]

The BP is a good exercise for the chest but not a great exercise for a lot of guy's. DB's will give a better feel and stretch over the BB. Now day's the BP has become more of a strength/power lifts and guy's will try to gage their progress with how much they can lift in that exercise. Not always the best idea if pure muscle mass is the goal. Inclines, in my view, give a better development of the tie in between the pec's & delts than regular flat benching.

I find that dips (weighted) with different hand positions have a better affect on chest/pec development.  And as above, affect the pec/delt tie in very strongly The recuitment of the delts and triceps are  called into play. They did helped my benching a lot when I was into it seriously. The PBN is a great movement to help  BP'ing power as it aids in  stablization & strength to the whole shoulder girdle, not only for overhead pressing but also BP'ing/Inclines.

Fly's, cable crossovers, etc are leverage/extention movement, though they do have their place, would not be considered a prime muscle mass builder for the pec's/chest. The pec deck allows better leverage, as the stress of the work load is on the point of the elbow, where it should be, and not far out and away from the body, as flys & cable work is. Declines pretty much mimic regular dips.

Might try this for a start or any other grouping you wish and see what betters your goals.

Inclines...DB's
Dips...weighted
Pec deck

Could do tri sets here if you wanted  and notice the muscle action and responce with these three movements. No rest beteween exercises and 90 seconds between a cycle. Good Luck.

Good Luck.

[pumpster]

Actually, it's a common fallacy & assumption to some that compounds are better than leverage movements. Everyone forgets examples that entirely contradict those types of dogmas. Biceps curls are isolation moves and the best mass builders extant. A bicep compound move like palms-in chins possibly approaches but does not surpass biceps curls-so much for broad generalization re: isolation moves!  I can easily instance other examples to over-ride flawed presumptions.

The whole idea of compound vs. isolation is antiquated, better consigned to the scrap heap. Pragmatism dictates trial and error, it comes down to individual experience.

Flys, cable work and pec deck are all serious chest bulkers-ask Bob Chic about that, he feels as I do about compounds and bench. The proviso with pec decks is that anyone with serious experience knows immediately that there is NO friggin way to generalize about their superiority over fly motions, not a chance. Their efficacy is entirely dependant on design and make, which varies widely. In some cases they're inferior to similar dumbbell and cable moves, in other cases they're better; each machine must be judged separately, with no preconceptions or continued sweeping generalizations gleaned long ago from a book.

As far as decline work, it is in no way exactly the same as dips, which can be harsh on the joints and emphasize all muscles other than chest if either done improperly or if individual's physiology isn't condusive to that particular exercise. Bottom line is to try both, and decide for yourself-declines work extremely well for me, dips don't. Very different animals to the discerning, actually.

Tri-sets and giant-sets are excellent but as advanced work, are best reserved for periods of stagnation, after regular sets and techniques such as supersets have exhausted their immediate usefulness.

[JPM]

Compound movements will always give the best possible results in regards to achieving muscle mass and strength. Give the choice of doing compound exercises like squats, dips, Dl's, etc for three months or doing only isolation/leverage  (isolation...misleading term) exercises like flys, crossovers, straight arm pullovers, leg extensions, laterial raises, etc, whom after that three month period would have gained the more pure muscle mass and strength? PL'ers come to mind in this regard. If biceps curls, using BB's or DB's, is an example than these are not true isolation movements. Both will have the influence of the anterior delts, in fact the whole shoulder girdle as well as the forearms & back area.. Even the Scott curl and the concentration curl would not be considered a true isolated function. 

One of the better bicep mass builder would be close curl grip (4-6") chin, touching the upper chest each rep to the bar. A second choice would be the BB cheat curl, a very effected muscle builder. The Pec deck, when the path of  the resistence is slightly above the shoulder level (anything lower does not have the same affect on the pec's themselves)  can be very rewarding . Adjusting the seat height may make up for any incorrect angle to this exercise. The stress of the workload/resistence is on the point of the inner elbow, about shoulder high. . Some machines require the trainee to grip handles out and away from the body, which in this case the exercise can be a less affective as regular DB flys or cable work.

As I said in the above post, "Declines pretty much mimic regular dips". Did not mention that it was exactly the same as dips. In my view declines will always take a back seat to dips anytime. Good Luck.

[pumpster]

The best size builders depend on the muscle and on individual reponse. Here are some examples of isolation exercises that are either as good or better than compounds:

-Calf exercises-all are isolation exercises. Surprise surprise, they're very effective...
-DB or Nautilus-type pullovers-as good or better than any other lat exercise.
-Standing or preacher curls using free weights or cables
-Lying/seated tricep extensions-there are NO compounds that hit the largest part of the triceps like extensions. Close-grips & dips primarily hit the medial & lateral heads only as well as disparate unrelated muscles that don't focus the movement where it should be. There is a tremendous amount of hype regarding dips and close grips. The best dip tricep motion is bench dips, which are akin to pressdowns, another isolation exercise.
-Dumbbell side/front/rear laterals-comparable to compounds, or better.
-Various fly motions for chest-better for many bodybuilders such as Bob Chic
-Wrist curls
For thigh work i've always found compounds best, in part because of the questionable designs of leg extension machines and also the physiology of the lower body, which differs marketedly from that of the upper body. Often compounds are more effective when using only partial ROMs.

[JPM]

Might I point out that the pullover (straight or bent arm) is a superior compound movement for the whole upper body.  It does not fall in the isolation class. The pullover affects the pec's, lat's, triceps and even the abs very strongly. Even more weight can be used in the bent arm version which increases it's muscle building abilities. The nautilus machine follows the same pattern but the resistence falls into three different levels as the exercise is preformed.
All in all, the compound exercises (two or more joints involved with moving a object/weight) should be first choice for development but as I have stated before the isolation (one joint movement) can act as a supplemental means along with the greater motor units and stimulation of a muscle group(s) through compound efforts. They do have their place in muscle/strength development. Single isolation exercises can also help when working around a injured body part.  A technical point being that a targeted  muscle can not be totally isolated . There is always a system of check and balances with the opposite muscle group as well as surrounding groups to help stablize the working area. They all get a bit of stimulation. Curls affect the forearms, wrist, triceps,delts,pecs, traps, upper and lower back to a lesser degree. Any form of laterial raise affects the arms, traps and back also. Good Luck

[pumpster]

Pullovers properly done, with arms prevented from flexing, mimic machine pullovers, one of the best or the best lat exercise. In either case, with the arms prevented from flexing, the pullover is an excellent isolation exercise in which there is only one pivot point, at the shoulder.

It's then a superior isolation movement that does *not* enlist ancillary muscles and focuses on lats/serratus in ways standard lat compound exercises don't.

[loco]

The best size builders depend on the muscle and on individual reponse. Here are some examples of isolation exercises that are either as good or better than compounds:
-Calf exercises-all are isolation exercises. Surprise surprise, they're very effective...
-DB or Nautilus-type pullovers-as good or better than any other lat exercise.
-Standing or preacher curls using free weights or cables
-Lying/seated tricep extensions-there are NO compounds that hit the largest part of the triceps like extensions. Close-grips & dips primarily hit the medial & lateral heads only as well as disparate unrelated muscles that don't focus the movement where it should be. There is a tremendous amount of hype regarding dips and close grips. The best dip tricep motion is bench dips, which are akin to pressdowns, another isolation exercise.
-Dumbbell side/front/rear laterals-comparable to compounds, or better.
-Various fly motions for chest-better for many bodybuilders such as Bob Chic
-Wrist curls
For thigh work i've always found compounds best, in part because of the questionable designs of leg extension machines and also the physiology of the lower body, which differs marketedly from that of the upper body. Often compounds are more effective when using only partial ROMs.

pumpster,
I agree with JPM.  You should make compounds your priority and they should make up most of your workout exercises.  Isolation exercises should be used only if there is not a compound exercise alternative.  I personally have experienced huge gains after switching from doing mostly isolation to doing mostly compounds, deadlifts, squats, dips, chins, standing barbell curls, inclined bench press and barbell shoulder presses.  From what I've read, this is due to the fact that with compounds you can lift heavier.  Lifting heavier promotes muscle mass.  Another reason, I have read, is that unlike isolation movements, compounds stimulate not only the muscles involved, but also the nervous system.  And stimulating the nervous system, with proper rest and nutrition, promotes muscle mass.  By the way, standing curls are not an isolation exercise, but preacher curls might be.  And look at Sergio, Arnold, Franco, Dorian and Ronnie.  All these guys made compounds a priority in their workouts.  I like Bob Chic, but come on...compare these guys to Bob Chic.  "Everybody wants to be a bodybuilder, but nobody wants to lift no heavy ass weights."

[JPM]

Any movement involving two or more major muscle groups (as well as the joints) would also be considered a compound exercise. Sorry I did not explain that in my last post.

Loco: Good post, which would comfirm that you are not loco. Your quote  at the end should be pasted on every would be body builder forehead just as a reminder. Could also post K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid) there also. Good Luck.

[pumpster]

Loco,

Once you have a little more experience you'll understand better what I'm saying-the guys I trained with who placed in the Universe did use heavy-ass weights-on both isolation and compounds!

Immediately your logic falls apart when you assume that there's some kind of advantage just because the weight used is heavier. Actually what you want is for the heavier weight to be effectively applied to the muscle-guys I've see with huge arms use heavy weights on isolation moves too.

Just to clarify, bicep curls are definitely not a compound, there is no direct assistance from other muscle is the motion's done properly.

Good luck, in a few years with more experience you'll understand.

[loco]

Loco,
Hopefully you'll disgard your preceptions once you've gained the kind of expience I have.
Immediately your logic falls apart when you assume that handling heavier weights always makes a difference! That is the thought process of a beginner. The point is to use heavy-ass weights on exercises that work the muscle the best, not the heaviest weights just to say you're using more. A common mistake you're making.
Do the research, experiment, and in a few years if you're open-minded you'll understand better..good luck man.

pumpster,
My perceptions, logic, assumptions, inexperience and ignorance take nothing away from the fact that I gained far more muscle mass after switching from isolation to compound movements, without changing anything else and without gaining fat.  My perceptions, logic, assumptions, inexperience and ignorance take nothing away from the fact that Sergio, Arnold, Franco, Dorian and Ronnie are far more massive than Bob Chic, whom you decided to use as an example of the benefits of isolation movements.  And make no mistake, I am definitely loco.  But young, inexperienced, lazy, beginner, weak, dumb and stupid I am not.  And thanks, good luck to you as well!

[pumpster]

Well guess what-go back and you'll find that those guys used plenty of isolation moves, you're just not up on them. For example, Sergio was known for HUGE tris, and his fave exercise for them was not compounds but extensions.

My best gains come from exercises that are the most effective. Effective vs. hoisting the most weight, which is powerlifting. When you gain more experience you'll understand that-it's also about the effect on the muscle, not just sticking with compounds because they're good for the ego in lifting more!

IF you work up to heavy poundages on isolation moves, you will be massive. Remember that.

Don't be distracted by the difference between Bob and some of the other guys you mentioned-take good advice from any source, not just the biggest guys. Big mistake.

[loco]

Well guess what-go back and you'll find that those guys used plenty of isolation moves, you're just not up on it.
My best gains come from exercises that are the most effective, not from ones where the most weight can be used-when you gain more experience you'll understand that. It's also about the effect on the muscle, not just the weigth used. Yours is a classic beginner's sydrome.

With all due respect, pumpster, your fear of heavy ass weights, your fear of pain and fear of real men exercises such a squats and deadlifts is your classic beginner's syndrome.  Stop making excuses and lift.

[pumpster]

OK pussy boy, do the heavy-ass squats and benches I used to do before you were born qualify me to be in your league anytime soon, kid?

If you're actually not that experienced, then keep the mind more open than you're showing, and absorb what you've been schooled here with. Use what you've been taught instead of knowing all.. 

[loco]

OK pussy boy, do the heavy-ass squats and benches I used to do before you were born qualify me to be in your league anytime soon, kid?
If you're actually not that experienced, then keep the mind more open than you're showing, and absorb what you've been schooled here with. Use what you've been taught instead of knowing all..

Calm down pumpster, no need to lose it, man.  You're going to blow your O ring. 

[pumpster]

Actually I'm going to sleep & multitasking because of the predictability and lack of insight in the posts of the regulars here. Absolutely no variation or imagination in the responses.

Keep an open mind, and try what i've said in your next workout. You have a lot to learn, obviously.  Remember that you evoked the names of famous BBs, all of whom use heavy-ass isolation moves extensively. Your misconceptions that these guys always lift hurculean compound weights is part of beginner's logic.

[loco]

Keep an open mind, and try what i've said in your next workout. You have a lot to learn, obviously. 

Pumpster,
why do you keep re-writing your last post over and over and over gain?  Just curious.

[pumpster]

Multitasking while on the phone dude, you're not keeping my attention.

You're welcome for the insights. Good luck.