Proud and Loud Athiests

[Wiggs]

1. Likewise, why aren't you smiting those who break the Sabbath as God commands?

(Exodus 31:14; 35:2; Numbers 15:32-36)

At the time, it was the law of the land.  The Bible says in Romans 13 (subject unto higher powers) to follow the laws of the land, therefore, I won't be smiting anyone.  

[Man of Steel]

Brother Wiggs!! Happy to give my input since you’ve asked me for it.  

I have some questions for you MOS.  Not trolling because I really like you I just would like to know if you know the answers to these questions.

1.  Why do you as a Christian go to church on Sunday and not the actual Sabbath (One of God's Commandments, remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy)?

Yes, the Sabbath is actually Saturday (the last day of the week where God rested).  Christ himself kept the Sabbath.  If it is good enough for Christ why isn’t it good enough for the church?  

It was the church of Rome that changed the weekly day of worship and fellowship from Saturday to Sunday and Reformed churches maintained this change.   Now, I can’t speak to the full history of the change (I’m sure it’s a google away), but I do know a change was made and I’ve seen no scripture that indicates that Sunday is the new Sabbath.  All I know is that Christ said that he is the Lord of the Sabbath and that we are to serve him.  The Sabbath is not an example of man-made, religious custom up for interpretation….it was a divine law to be kept for the Jews.  Christians worship on Sundays because Christ rose from the grave on Sunday.....hence the term "Resurrection Sunday".  Pagans may have worshipped a sun god and therefore "Sunday" was the pagan day of worship, but the Christian church didn't align with the pagans but again helped subvert pagan worship with the weekly celebration of Christ's Sunday resurrection.  

My church actually holds formal sevices on Wednesdays, Fridays, Saturday and Sundays…..many churches are doing the same and I believe things are moving in the right direction.  Reformed churches do not hold to the Sabbath as this OT commandment was not renewed in NT scripture.

Now, I would also add that as followers of Christ we’re basically commanded to keep every day holy.  As Christ said, we should "hunger and thirst for righteousness".  A day of fellowship and worship is a time to come together and worship our Lord and Savior and fellowship with one another as a body of believers in Christ.   This commands naturally extends to the entirety of the week in that we are to extend fellowship with one another, worship the Lord our God, be that “salt and light” for the world and keep faithful and righteousness regardless of the day or hour.  

2. Why do Christians celebrate Christmas and other pagan holidays when the Bible says not to?

To be very clear, Christmas isn’t a pagan holiday.  

A day is not made “wholly unholy” because ungoldly pagans placed one of their festivals within it.  As it states in Psalms 118, each day is a day “that that Lord has made” and each day that we give him the glory and praise affirms that.

The Roman Catholic church chose December 25th to celebrate the birth of Christ in an attempt to subvert the pagan celebrations that annually occurred at or around that same time; in essense, replacing pagan traditions with a celebration of Christ.  In this instance their motivations were accurate in my opinion.

No one knows the exact birthdate of Christ.  Some say it was in the spring and others the fall.  That said, the church made a strong attempt to establish the annual celebration of Christ's birth in a way that both glorifies our Lord and Savior and symbolically suppresses the evil of men.

The verses in Jeremiah don't refer to Christmas trees....that's a forced fit many employ for the sake of making an argument.  The verses refer to those people that fashioned wooden idols and decorated them for purposes of pagan worship.  And where does one get wood?  From trees in a forest.  Christians do not worship Christmas trees.

Christians celebrate Christmas annually to give specific praise and glory to God because of the coming of the incarnate Son of God in Jesus Christ.

3.  Why do you Christians not follow the dietary law when Christ said, I came not to change the law but to fulfill it. i.e. pork, shellfish etc?

Here we have the notion of clean and unclean foods in relation to the new covenant.  

The early Israelites were called by God to be holy or “set apart” from the pagan nations around them and they adhered to law and practices that made that distinction more evident.   Folks often say, “why is it a sin to eat lobster?”   It’s not that the lobster is bad or unclean in and of itself, but the Israelites were set apart and did not blur the lines in all aspects of their lives.   They ate fish because fish were animals meant only for water and  did not have mixed physical characteristics like shellfish/lobsters do.  Lobsters can survive in and out of water and have a mix of features designed for land and water so they were temporarily deemed “unclean” for purposes of maintaining the idea of distinction while the nation of Israel developed.  Man then began to include other cultural concepts that indicated distinctiveness such as cultural practices for hair and head coverings, but as Paul mentions in these passages of scripture we are to “judge for ourselves” the appropriateness of these customs.  

It was Christ that told the Pharisees:

Mark 7:15
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

 Of course there are some that will say the passage focuses on eating food with unwashed hands versus eating food with the customary washed hands.   Further Christ was condemning Pharisetical traditions that they tended to place above God’s law.  In my opinion, he addressed both the concept of placing “customs and traditions” ahead of his law (as Paul noted in his passage about headship) while at the same time indicating that eating an animal of mixed charecteristics does not defile a person or then break a law….it’s sin that defiles man.  Ultimately Christ came to fulfill the law and become the curse for the law so that man can be made righteous.

Still we can further consider Peter's vision in Acts in which God deemed animals clean for eating:

Acts 10:9-16
9 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10 But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11 and he *saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13 A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!” 14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything [g]unholy and unclean.” 15 Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” 16 This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.

4. Where in the Bible is the rapture, please show me?

The word “rapture” is not mentioned in scripture much like the word “trinity” is not mentioned.  Yet the demonstration of both is present in scripture.  Now, I am not a pre-tribulation rapture adherent.  I belief all followers of Christ will be subject to the great tribulation if they are alive at that time.  We will be joined with our Lord and "caught up with him in the clouds" upon his return after that period of tribulation is past.  There will be no sudden "vanishing of believers" or pre-tribulation rapture.  I've read the "Left Behind" series of books, but only because I sometimes enjoy fiction.

5.  If sin is defined as transgression of the laws, why do Christians say they are under grace and they believe that gives them the ok to sin?  Meaning if you're under grace it's ok to do anything you want including, rape, murder, steal, and anything else.

Sin is as an offense against God.  God is just, the law is God and the law is just.  We break his law defiantly and offend him (or sin).  

Believers in Christ are saved by grace through faith in Christ and thereby deemed righteous and justified before the throne of God.  We are saved from God’s wrath and are sanctified by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and subject to his will for our lives.  We forgo of our individual will and align ourselves with his will.   That process of sanctification does not remove our sinful tendencies, but it’s also not a license to sin.  As believers in Christ we adopt a repentant heart and completely turn away from our sin as best we are able.   It’s the Holy Spirit that guides our future walk with our Savior in Christ and helps us to live as the salt and light for the world.  Though we may stumble we are assured that we cannot be snatched from his hand.   A relationship with Christ is about a lifelong journey in which we do all we can to emulate him though we will not escape the trappings of sin until he returns to claim his church.  There is only one that ever existed in the person of Jesus Christ who was without sin.


I do have a couple of quick questions of my own that I’m curious about:

Do you give approximately 25-35% of your income (in whatever form that may take) back to the God as indicated in OT scripture.   The Israelites tithed way beyond the often referenced 10% of their earnings (whatever form that took).  

How do you interpret the following scripture:

1 Peter 3:8-17
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

Hopefully I helped answer your questions because I’ve tried to answer honestly.

[Wiggs]

Brother Wiggs!! Happy to give my input since you’ve asked me for it. 

Yes, the Sabbath is actually Saturday (the last day of the week where God rested).  Christ himself kept the Sabbath.  If it is good enough for Christ why isn’t it good enough for the church? 

It was the church of Rome the changed the weekly day of worship and fellowship from Saturday to Sunday yet even Reformed churches maintained this change.   Now, I can’t speak to the full history of the change (I’m sure it’s a google away), but I do know a change was made and I’ve seen no scripture that indicates that Sunday is the new Sabbath.  I believe it to be an error and some make arguments to justify it, but the Sabbath is not an example of man-made, religious custom up for interpretation….it’s a divine law to be kept. 

My church actually holds formal sevices on Wednesdays, Fridays, Saturday and Sundays…..many churches are doing the same and I believe things are moving in the right direction.   I have no problem keeping the Sabbath, but today’s churches have been raised by the Catholic church’s initial dictum sourced from a  “Sola Roma” notion straight from the teaching magisterium of Catholicism.  Despite Reformed churches claiming the notion of “sola scriptura” the Sabbath was not renewed.   

For me I enjoy worship and fellowship on Saturdays and have encouraged my family to make that our day….for me it just “felt right”….there’s no coincidence there.   Although, individually and culturally we’re guilty of not honoring the Sabbath as we should.  I believe a change should be made….even if only at an individual level for starters.

Now, I would also add that as followers of Christ we’re basically commanded to keep every day holy.  As Christ said, we shoud "hunger and thirst for righteousness".  A day of fellowship and worship is a time to come together and worship our Lord and Savior and fellowship with one another as a body of believers in Christ.   This commands naturally extends to the entirety of the week in that we are to extend fellowship with one another, worship the Lord our God, be that “salt and light” for the world and keep faithful and righteousness regardless of the day or hour.   

To be very clear, Christmas isn’t a pagan holiday. 

A day is not made “wholly unholy” because ungoldly pagans placed one of their festivals within it.  As it states in Psalms 118, each day is a day “that that Lord has made” and each day that we give him the glory and praise affirms that.

The Roman Catholic church chose December 25th to celebrate the birth of Christ in an attempt to subvert the pagan celebrations that annually occurred at or around that same time; in essense, replacing pagan traditions with a celebration of Christ.  In this instance their motivations were accurate in my opinion.

No one knows the exact birthdate of Christ.  Some say it was in the spring and others the fall.  That said, the church made a strong attempt to establish the annual celebration of Christ's birth in a way that both glorifies our Lord and Savior and symbolically suppresses the evil of men.

The verses in Jeremiah don't refer to Christmas trees....that's a forced fit many employ for the sake of making an argument.  The verses refer to those people that fashioned wooden idols and decorated them for purposes of pagan worship.  And where does one get wood?  From trees in a forest.  Christians do not worship Christmas trees.

Christians celebrate Christmas annually to give specific praise and glory to God because of the coming of the incarnate Son of God in Jesus Christ.

Here we have the notion of clean and unclean foods in relation to the new covenant. 

The early Israelites were called by God to be holy or “set apart” from the pagan nations around them and they adhered to law and practices that made that distinction more evident.   Folks often say, “why is it a sin to eat lobster?”   It’s not that the lobster is bad or unclean in and of itself, but the Israelites were set apart and did not blur the lines in all aspects of their lives.   They ate fish because fish were animals meant only for water and  did not have mixed physical characteristics like shellfish/lobsters do.  Lobsters can survive in and out of water and have a mix of features designed for land and water so they were temporarily deemed “unclean” for purposes of maintaining the idea of distinction while the nation of Israel developed.  Man then began to include other cultural concepts that indicated distinctiveness such as cultural practices for hair and head coverings, but as Paul mentions in these passages of scripture we are to “judge for ourselves” the appropriateness of these customs.   

It was Christ that told the Pharisees:

Mark 7:15
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

 Of course there are some that will say the passage focuses on eating food with unwashed hands versus eating food with the customary washed hands.   Further that Christ was condemning Pharisetical traditions that they tended to place above God’s law.  In my opinion he addressed both the concept of “customs and traditions” as Paul did in his passage about headship while at the same time indicating that eating an animal of mixed charecteristics does not defile a person….it’s sin that defiles man.  Hence Christ came to fulfill the law and become the curse for the law so that man can be made righteous.

The word “rapture” is not mentioned in scripture much like the word “trinity” is not mentioned.  Yet the demonstration of both is present in scripture.  Now, I am not a pre-tribulation rapture adherent.  I belief all followers of Christ will be subject to the great tribulation if they are alive at that time.  We will be joined with our Lord and "caught up with him in the clouds" upon his return after that period of tribulation is past.  There will be no sudden "vanishing of believers" or pre-tribulation rapture.  I've read the "Left Behind" series of books, but only because I sometimes enjoy fiction.

Sin is as an offense against God.  God is just, the law is God and the law is just.  We break his law defiantly and offend him (or sin).   

Believers in Christ are saved by grace through faith in Christ and thereby deemed righteous and justified before the throne of God.  We are saved from God’s wrath and are sanctified by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and subject to his will for our lives.  We forgo of our individual will and align ourselves with his will.   That process of sanctification does not remove our sinful tendencies, but it’s also not a license to sin.  As believers in Christ we adopt a repentant heart and completely turn away from our sin as best we are able.   It’s the Holy Spirit that guides our future walk with our Savior in Christ and helps us to live as the salt and light for the world.  Though we may stumble we are assured that we cannot be snatched from his hand.   A relationship with Christ is about a lifelong journey in which we do all we can to emulate him though we will not escape the trappings of sin until he returns to claim his church.  There is only one that ever existed in the person of Jesus Christ who was without sin.


I do have a couple of quick questions of my own that I’m curious about:

Do you give approximately 25-35% of your income (in whatever form that may take) back to the God as indicated in OT scripture.   The Israelites tithed way beyond the often referenced 10% of their earnings (whatever form that took). 

How do you interpret the following scripture:

1 Peter 3:8-17
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

Hopefully I helped answer your questions because I’ve tried to answer honestly.

Dang man.  I'll have to get back with you later, lol. You wrote a book but trust that unless this thread is deleted, I'll read and respond.  Thanks for the reply.

[Man of Steel]

Dang man.  I'll have to get back with you later, lol. You wrote a book but trust that unless this thread is deleted, I'll read and respond.  Thanks for the reply.

LOL sorry...have some previously written replies at my fingertips I pieced together.

Take a look when you get a chance....all good. 

[Man of Steel]

Wiggs, you're smart, so you know that Christians cherry pick parts of the bible they want to follow, and ignore other parts. As you said, they ignore the dietary restrictions of the bible, yet will focus on other parts of the bible. It's whatever suits their needs and wants at the time.

I take my faith seriously and defend it honestly.  Some cherry pick but many are simply ignorant.

I do my best to learn and apply and in doing so my conclusions will change given new and /or better info or perspectives.

There's a secular method often referenced that does the same. 

[devilsmile]

Yes, sure you have overcome lots of mind fuckery. You have seen through it all, and the rest of us are just mindless drones.   Yes, I am sure you have tapped into something else that we can all long to have. Keep telling yourself that. Whatever makes you sleep better at night, champ.

I don't give two thongs what you think I may or may not have tapped in or whatever you're talking about

I definitely didn't say I have been through it all, I said I've been through a lot of mind fuckery and I'm not the same I was few years ago when I was insane, now I'm barely nuts, but that doesn't make you any less. Well maybe you're not nuts, but absolutely dumber than I am.

You make it sound like you 'dislike' me by principle no matter what I do or say, but I just can't generate two fucks to give. Like I need your acceptance  

[DroppingPlates]

Why wouldn't you?  Are you afraid of the truth?  I'm using your people,  and the so called jews, Israelis and middle eastern Rabbi that know we are the real  Hebrews. Didn't use one Hebrew.  They know.  People know.  We know.   People are getting very nervous about this.  This is very bad news for the people that took our identity (aka Khazars,aka "Jewish people") especially considering that the people that took our identity are the Edomites of the Bible, sons and daughters of Esau. I'm not mad though. This was supposed to happen. I can only be mad at my ancestors for not following the laws, statutes and commandments and getting us cursed.  The serpent people (so called Jewish people, it's what they called themselves before they stole our identity.) did what they were supposed to.  They'll have many questions to answer...They know what the Bible says how God feels about them. Which is why they hate the New Testament and the Apocrypha. It's also part of the reason they took on another identity.

Romans 9:13 KJV 

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


Revelation 2:9 King James Version (KJV)

9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.



We are from the seed of Jacob, they are from the seed of Esau.

OK Hebrew Wiggs, it's obvious to me that you feel the strong desire to share messages like these, which is fine to me (freedom of speech of peace), but I still wonder "why?!", why can't you just live your life on your own terms, without telling others how and what to think? In fact, why would you even care?
I refuse to think in terms of "truth" or "your people", that's just your reference point.

[SF1900]

I take my faith seriously and defend it honestly.  Some cherry pick but many are simply ignorant.

I do my best to learn and apply and in doing so my conclusions will change given new and /or better info or perspectives.

There's a secular method often referenced that does the same. 

If you take your faith seriously, then why do you not follow EVERYTHING in the bible? It would seem half-assed to only follow certain things and ignore others.

Yes, the secular method is called science. We learn and grow and change over time. That is the premise of science. But you're deliberately going against God's word by doing the opposite of what is prescribed in the bible. And that is not what God wants.

[SF1900]

I don't give two thongs what you think I may or may not have tapped in or whatever you're talking about

I definitely didn't say I have been through it all, I said I've been through a lot of mind fuckery and I'm not the same I was few years ago when I was insane, now I'm barely nuts, but that doesn't make you any less. Well maybe you're not nuts, but absolutely dumber than I am.

You make it sound like you 'dislike' me by principle no matter what I do or say, but I just can't generate two fucks to give. Like I need your acceptance  

Okay, calm down, little emo boy. Go tell your parents how much you hate them, go buy beer and drink it with your friends, so you can rebel against society. Then you and your little emo friends can talk about how enlightened you all are, while the rest of us are mindless robots. 

[King Shizzo]

Brother Wiggs!! Happy to give my input since you’ve asked me for it.  

Yes, the Sabbath is actually Saturday (the last day of the week where God rested).  Christ himself kept the Sabbath.  If it is good enough for Christ why isn’t it good enough for the church?  

It was the church of Rome that changed the weekly day of worship and fellowship from Saturday to Sunday yet even Reformed churches maintained this change.   Now, I can’t speak to the full history of the change (I’m sure it’s a google away), but I do know a change was made and I’ve seen no scripture that indicates that Sunday is the new Sabbath.  I believe it to be an error and some make arguments to justify it, but the Sabbath is not an example of man-made, religious custom up for interpretation….it’s a divine law to be kept.  

My church actually holds formal sevices on Wednesdays, Fridays, Saturday and Sundays…..many churches are doing the same and I believe things are moving in the right direction.   I have no problem keeping the Sabbath, but today’s churches have been raised by the Catholic church’s initial dictum sourced from a  “Sola Roma” notion straight from the teaching magisterium.  Despite Reformed churches claiming the notion of “sola scriptura” the Sabbath was not renewed.  

For me I enjoy worship and fellowship on Saturdays and have encouraged my family to make that our day….for me it just “felt right”….there’s no coincidence there.   Although, individually and culturally we’re guilty of not honoring the Sabbath as we should.  I believe a change should be made….even if only at an individual level for starters.

Now, I would also add that as followers of Christ we’re basically commanded to keep every day holy.  As Christ said, we should "hunger and thirst for righteousness".  A day of fellowship and worship is a time to come together and worship our Lord and Savior and fellowship with one another as a body of believers in Christ.   This commands naturally extends to the entirety of the week in that we are to extend fellowship with one another, worship the Lord our God, be that “salt and light” for the world and keep faithful and righteousness regardless of the day or hour.  

To be very clear, Christmas isn’t a pagan holiday.  

A day is not made “wholly unholy” because ungoldly pagans placed one of their festivals within it.  As it states in Psalms 118, each day is a day “that that Lord has made” and each day that we give him the glory and praise affirms that.

The Roman Catholic church chose December 25th to celebrate the birth of Christ in an attempt to subvert the pagan celebrations that annually occurred at or around that same time; in essense, replacing pagan traditions with a celebration of Christ.  In this instance their motivations were accurate in my opinion.

No one knows the exact birthdate of Christ.  Some say it was in the spring and others the fall.  That said, the church made a strong attempt to establish the annual celebration of Christ's birth in a way that both glorifies our Lord and Savior and symbolically suppresses the evil of men.

The verses in Jeremiah don't refer to Christmas trees....that's a forced fit many employ for the sake of making an argument.  The verses refer to those people that fashioned wooden idols and decorated them for purposes of pagan worship.  And where does one get wood?  From trees in a forest.  Christians do not worship Christmas trees.

Christians celebrate Christmas annually to give specific praise and glory to God because of the coming of the incarnate Son of God in Jesus Christ.

Here we have the notion of clean and unclean foods in relation to the new covenant.  

The early Israelites were called by God to be holy or “set apart” from the pagan nations around them and they adhered to law and practices that made that distinction more evident.   Folks often say, “why is it a sin to eat lobster?”   It’s not that the lobster is bad or unclean in and of itself, but the Israelites were set apart and did not blur the lines in all aspects of their lives.   They ate fish because fish were animals meant only for water and  did not have mixed physical characteristics like shellfish/lobsters do.  Lobsters can survive in and out of water and have a mix of features designed for land and water so they were temporarily deemed “unclean” for purposes of maintaining the idea of distinction while the nation of Israel developed.  Man then began to include other cultural concepts that indicated distinctiveness such as cultural practices for hair and head coverings, but as Paul mentions in these passages of scripture we are to “judge for ourselves” the appropriateness of these customs.  

It was Christ that told the Pharisees:

Mark 7:15
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

 Of course there are some that will say the passage focuses on eating food with unwashed hands versus eating food with the customary washed hands.   Further Christ was condemning Pharisetical traditions that they tended to place above God’s law.  In my opinion, he addressed both the concept of placing “customs and traditions” ahead of his law (as Paul noted in his passage about headship) while at the same time indicating that eating an animal of mixed charecteristics does not defile a person or then break a law….it’s sin that defiles man.  Ultimately Christ came to fulfill the law and become the curse for the law so that man can be made righteous.

The word “rapture” is not mentioned in scripture much like the word “trinity” is not mentioned.  Yet the demonstration of both is present in scripture.  Now, I am not a pre-tribulation rapture adherent.  I belief all followers of Christ will be subject to the great tribulation if they are alive at that time.  We will be joined with our Lord and "caught up with him in the clouds" upon his return after that period of tribulation is past.  There will be no sudden "vanishing of believers" or pre-tribulation rapture.  I've read the "Left Behind" series of books, but only because I sometimes enjoy fiction.

Sin is as an offense against God.  God is just, the law is God and the law is just.  We break his law defiantly and offend him (or sin).  

Believers in Christ are saved by grace through faith in Christ and thereby deemed righteous and justified before the throne of God.  We are saved from God’s wrath and are sanctified by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and subject to his will for our lives.  We forgo of our individual will and align ourselves with his will.   That process of sanctification does not remove our sinful tendencies, but it’s also not a license to sin.  As believers in Christ we adopt a repentant heart and completely turn away from our sin as best we are able.   It’s the Holy Spirit that guides our future walk with our Savior in Christ and helps us to live as the salt and light for the world.  Though we may stumble we are assured that we cannot be snatched from his hand.   A relationship with Christ is about a lifelong journey in which we do all we can to emulate him though we will not escape the trappings of sin until he returns to claim his church.  There is only one that ever existed in the person of Jesus Christ who was without sin.


I do have a couple of quick questions of my own that I’m curious about:

Do you give approximately 25-35% of your income (in whatever form that may take) back to the God as indicated in OT scripture.   The Israelites tithed way beyond the often referenced 10% of their earnings (whatever form that took).  

How do you interpret the following scripture:

1 Peter 3:8-17
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

Hopefully I helped answer your questions because I’ve tried to answer honestly.

Meltdown.

[Man of Steel]

If you take your faith seriously, then why do you not follow EVERYTHING in the bible? It would seem half-assed to only follow certain things and ignore others.

Yes, the secular method is called science. We learn and grow and change over time. That is the premise of science. But you're deliberately going against God's word by doing the opposite of what is prescribed in the bible. And that is not what God wants.

I'm not perfect.  

Man's inability to fully fulfill God's law points to the reason for Christ.

He came to fulfill in us that which we can't on our own.

Also I dont know all things about scripture at once...i gather knowledge over time and correct behaviors accordingly because I attempt to emulate Christ.

[Man of Steel]

Meltdown.

AHAHAHAHHA!!  POST OF THE DAY!! 

[devilsmile]

Okay, calm down, little emo boy. Go tell your parents how much you hate them, go buy beer and drink it with your friends, so you can rebel against society. Then you and your little emo friends can talk about how enlightened you all are, while the rest of us are mindless robots.  

your wittiness rivals with primemuscle's  

[SF1900]

I'm not perfect.  

Man's inability to fully God's law points to the reason for Christ.

He came to fulfill in us that which we can't on our own.

Also I dont know all things about scripture at once...i gather knowledge over time and correct behaviors accordingly because I attempt to emulate Christ.

I take that as an excuse.

This has nothing to do with infallibility. This is theists specifically focusing on bashing certain people or lifestyles (gays), according to their bible, and ignoring many other tenets in the bible. This goes beyond just making a "mistake" because humans are infallible.

I know this is not you. But it is many theists. So, I don't buy the infallible argument. They are making a very conscious decision to act a certain way against other groups of people.

[SF1900]

your wittiness rivals with primemuscle's  

Whatever makes you sleep better at night, little boy.

[Man of Steel]

I take that as an excuse.

This has nothing to do with infallibility. This is theists specifically focusing on bashing certain people or lifestyles (gays), according to their bible, and ignoring many other tenets in the bible. This goes beyond just making a "mistake" because humans are infallible.

I know this is not you. But it is many theists. So, I don't buy the infallible argument. They are making a very conscious decision to act a certain way against other groups of people.

Not an excuse it just is what I am.

Yes some believers dont follow or understand scripture.

[Wiggs]

OK Hebrew Wiggs, it's obvious to me that you feel the strong desire to share messages like these, which is fine to me (freedom of speech of peace), but I still wonder "why?!", why can't you just live your life on your own terms, without telling others how and what to think? In fact, why would you even care?
I refuse to think in terms of "truth" or "your people", that's just your reference point.

According to the Bible, we, the Hebrews are the priests of this earth.  We are commanded by God to spread the word of God to the rest of the world.  If we do this, and follow his laws, statutes and commandments, we would be blessed. If we didn't we would be cursed.  Needless to say, we didn't and we were cursed (See Deuteronomy 28).  There would be a time period the world would forget who we were and we would go into slavery again but by ships this time to land not our own and we would be spread across the four corners of the globe.  In the end times, it we would wake up to who we were. 2/3 of us will reject it and somehow will be killed. We will return to Israel upon Christs return.

This is who we are.  Like white people are not all the same, neither are all black nations.  Our homeland is Israel.  We are the original Hebrews.  Meaning, that's our Holy land. Just switchout Negro for Hebrew and things will make alot more sense.  I'm just doing my job. Theres so much false doctrine and prophets out there, it's going to cost people their souls.  If I can clear things up on a message board, I'm gonna do it.  I'm not gonna twist arms though.  If a person doesn't believe in God. Fine, but get off my nuts because the most of us do and I have a job to do.

[Teutonic Knight]

 We will return to Israel upon Christs return.

Be specific: time & date 

[Tre]

God gave me one of the best blowjobs of my life last week.  And then tipped.  That's my nugga.   

[devilsmile]

Most converted people today (aka wiggs) convert out of paranoia and fear. First they have drug problems, mental health issues, then they get paranoid and try to seek god.

 My friend from years ago denied religion, he also said religion was just another form of control over people's minds. He had severe alcohol problems, used all sorts of prescription drugs for depression and suffered from bad selfesteem because he was too blond and average looking guy, he only dated fat women and felt extreme self hate for it.

I haven't seen him in few years and I just recently found out that he's in some christian camp in sweden... WHAT

I never was like that. I had my own mental problems, but I didn't turn to god, I still haven't turned to god. But I believe in god 100% but I'm not a godly man, I don't pray to god or devote myself to it. God isn't some atm machine for forgiveness, you have to completely turn your life around in order to get saved according to bible. I question people's faith who turn to god from the sake of fear.

All these believers who consume their minds with everything that aren't from god, loving it, then they preach about god... I just don't believe that their faith is true, they seem hypocrites.

[DroppingPlates]

Solid post Devilsmile, and esp that first part is so damn true. I remember my conversations with young folks from a evangelical church, and many of them had a rock & roll life before they saw 'the light'.
The opposite can also be true.. A famous porn star in my country (she's too ugly to post a picture) grew up as a Jehovah witness, until she experienced her first orgasm.

[Man of Steel]

Most converted people today (aka wiggs) convert out of paranoia and fear. First they have drug problems, mental health issues, then they get paranoid and try to seek god.

 My friend from years ago denied religion, he also said religion was just another form of control over people's minds. He had severe alcohol problems, used all sorts of prescription drugs for depression and suffered from bad selfesteem because he was too blond and average looking guy, he only dated fat women and felt extreme self hate for it.

I haven't seen him in few years and I just recently found out that he's in some christian camp in sweden... WHAT

I never was like that. I had my own mental problems, but I didn't turn to god, I still haven't turned to god. But I believe in god 100% but I'm not a godly man, I don't pray to god or devote myself to it. God isn't some atm machine for forgiveness, you have to completely turn your life around in order to get saved according to bible. I question people's faith who turn to god from the sake of fear.

All these believers who consume their minds with everything that aren't from god, loving it, then they preach about god... I just don't believe that their faith is true, they seem hypocrites.

What do YOU believe about God?

[devilsmile]

What do YOU believe about God?

Well I believe that one needs to seek for god. According to the bible anyone who seeks god and wants to devote themselves to god truthfully will be heard. I believe that one can't fool god, god is the creator after all. I also believe that god knows my faith is true, but it's not enough to be saved, my lifestyle is definitely not christian, but I still believe in it.

I don't blame god for nothing, and I don't believe god changes lives, however I believe god can have exceptional influence on people to change their lives, even if it doesn't cure deceases or make you walthier. I believe most "christians" make the mistake asking god to give them something, like what can you give to me, god, give me better life! When a true christian should give him or herself to god instead, their thoughts and hearts.

I also face palm when people ask "if god is so great, why does he let the world burn". In my opinion god doesn't interfere with people's freedom of choice, no matter how heretic they may be, but god gives a choice to seek for him and not go into temptation. Everyone has a choice.

And knowing all this, today I will get high and go to a strip joint to rub my face on beautiful 20 year old med students
asses and breasts.

Solid post Devilsmile, and esp that first part is so damn true. I remember my conversations with young folks from a evangelical church, and many of them had a rock & roll life before they saw 'the light'.
The opposite can also be true.. A famous porn star in my country (she's too ugly to post a picture) grew up as a Jehovah witness, until she experienced her first orgasm.

seems legit 

[King Shizzo]

[devilsmile]

yeah, we all believe in something