Drug-Free Natural Genetic Limits (what really is possible)

[BigRo]

bleh bleh I have science backing me bleh bleh

Most protein powders have some form of artificial sweetener in them.

[Thin Lizzy]

Sure u were 5% at 193 natural and at 5'9 yeah better genetics than levrone haha

Zane, at the same height, competed at 185. So, Howard, natty at 5%, was heavier than Zane juiced.

[Method101]

bleh bleh I have science backing me bleh bleh

Most protein powders have some form of artificial sweetener in them.

The artificial sweeteners in the protein powders are nothing compared to the growth inducing drugs and antibiotics given to the cows and chickens which turn into the steaks and chicken breasts you consume.

the only tests which showed toxicity from aspartame are where a totally gigantic amount was given to rats which would be impossible to get unless you drank several gallons of diet coke a day, anything is toxic in high enough dosages.

[SuperTed]

Marc Perry's graph seems quite accurate, at least from my experience. I used to be a 270lb perma bulker at 6'2ft but ended up around 185lbs when I dieted down. Even at 185, I was merely just "lean" so still a fair few digits off contest condition. 

There are probably some guys who can suppress the stats given but I think we will be looking at just a few extra lbs rather than anything major.

[njflex]

I don't know man  ,maybe   ''The Shape'' is Robert Gibbs , a lifetime natural that competes in Musclemania @ 5'11''  185lbs  5% BF 

holy crap last 2 pics look like a ifbb pro small version beyeke..

[Hulkotron]

Seems about right to be honest..At least for me

x2

How is your training going these days G4It?

[_aj_]

I don't know man  ,maybe   ''The Shape'' is Robert Gibbs , a lifetime natural that competes in Musclemania @ 5'11''  185lbs  5% BF 

And you know he's natural how? Because he said so? Oh, ok.

[Donny]

Zane was a great Bodybuilder. him and Serge are 2 of my Favourites.

[Parker]

And you know he's natural how? Because he said so? Oh, ok.

Because he's Flex Wheeler's half brother  

[Go 4 It]

x2

How is your training going these days G4It?

hey man, going well, Team Upright rows! Honestly regarding this topic, I don't think people understand how lean you have to be at a true 5% bf.

[SuperTed]

Ok, just for the sake of debate let's say the lean mass and ht chart TA posted is a good working average.

Now let's look at height distributions within the world population.
( I'll use rounded numbers for the purpose of illustration)

50% of the men fall between 5'9" and 5'10"
Only  20% are 6 ft or taller. Or 80% are 5' 11.9" and under 6 ft tall

Only 2% are 6' 4" or taller

A very small fraction of a % are 7 ft or taller.

Now let's assume that muscle growth on  lean healthy males will have a similar distribution to other physical characteristic , like ht.

Aprox 50% of the males who get ultra lean, 5% body fat will be 5'9" and around 160-165 lbs.

1.the top 20% would be able to be same ht and fat% but achieve 175-180 lbs of body wt.
2.the top 10% could get to 190lbs, top 2% 195 lbs, top 1% 200 lbs.
3.the top 0.000001 % elite freak could be 210 ripped or  more ?

The TA posted chart is fine for an avg, but it assumes every male will be within the same standard deviation values for ht and lean mass.

That posted chart ignores basic statistical distributions that will occur within any population.

I agree that there will be people out there who will suppress these figures but I just don’t see anyone doing so by any significant amount. I live in London and the gym I attend is full of West African dudes, some with first class physical genetics. However, even these guys I think will fall within a similar range if they were in contest shape. Being able to maintain mass at such low body fat is incredibly tough to do as a natural.
I felt like I had withered away at around 8/9%. I’d probably look like a famine victim at 5%.

[Thin Lizzy]

Marc Perry's graph seems quite accurate, at least from my experience. I used to be a 270lb perma bulker at 6'2ft but ended up around 185lbs when I dieted down. Even at 185, I was merely just "lean" so still a fair few digits off contest condition. 

There are probably some guys who can suppress the stats given but I think we will be looking at just a few extra lbs rather than anything major.

There was recently a show on ESPN about retired NFL players who were struggling with weight gain.

One guy who had played at 300, decided to diet down and compete in a men's fitness show. His weight for the show was 220, without even being ripped, and this guy was a big boned 6'5".

[thegamechanger]

bodybuilding isnt about numbers.
its not about height, weight, measurements, reach or percentage of bodyfat.

now if we would talk about fighting then at least reach and weight would come into the picture, but the problem there isnt getting lean, it's being able to fight for 15 or 25 minutes being lean (as oppose to bodybuilders who can hardly walk up on stage)

[Thin Lizzy]

bodybuilding isnt about numbers.
its not about height, weight, measurements, reach or percentage of bodyfat.

now if we would talk about fighting then at least reach and weight would come into the picture, but the problem there isnt getting lean, it's being able to fight for 15 or 25 minutes being lean (as oppose to bodybuilders who can hardly walk up on stage)

MMA fighters are a good sample group because they're trying to be big, for their weight. So, you see what a big 185 pound man looks like.

Case in point, Uriah Hall @6', 185.

[MAXX]

MMA fighters are a good sample group because they're trying to be big, for their weight. So, you see what a big 185 pound man looks like.

Case in point, Uriah Hall @6', 185.

it's not a good example because they don't train specifically for hypertrophy and size...

[Thin Lizzy]

it's not a good example because they don't train specifically for hypertrophy and size...

C'mon, without steroids, how much more muscle can he put on, without also adding fat?

The harsh reality is that training natty you can add a few pounds of lean muscle and that's it.

[thegamechanger]

this guy has the same height and fights in the same weightclass as uriah hall

they look identical!!

[closeline]

Back in bodybuilding days i was 230...240 at 6 ' 1/2

Today i am 180 and would have to loose 5-10 Pounds more to be close to Contest shape

So i can Tell you, the Formulas are Quite accurate

Honestly this thread Shows how few obviously ever tried the natural way themselves

For the most Part members of two groups here

50 percent on drugs, most of them liars

50 percent newbies Dreaming of a Great natural body and listening to the liars

Weak up,

Most Men have not the genetics to Look like Brad Pitt, Christiano Ronaldo or Daniel Craig if trying without peds
And they don t too

[ritch]

Back in bodybuilding days i was 230...240 at 6 ' 1/2

Today i am 180 and would have to loose 5-10 Pounds more to be close to Contest shape

So i can Tell you, the Formulas are Quite accurate

Honestly this thread Shows how few obviously ever tried the natural way themselves

For the most Part members of two groups here

50 percent on drugs, most of them liars

50 percent newbies Dreaming of a Great natural body and listening to the liars

Weak up,

Most Men have not the genetics to Look like Brad Pitt, Christiano Ronaldo or Daniel Craig if trying without peds
And they don t too

Big time LOL@ needing gear to look like those guys...

[ritch]

I knew a naturally hot girl who used to train at my gym.
She didn't need make up or fancy clothes to look VERY sexy.

Same with men and muscle mass.
99.9% of men won't be able to get that big without drugs
BUT, 1 out of 1000 will. Basic stats and human distributions.

ya sayin' those guys were on gear? No way man. They all wear small or medium shirts. Let's not forget that. They just got lean, with a tiny bit of muscle.

[SuperTed]

There was recently a show on ESPN about retired NFL players who were struggling with weight gain.

One guy who had played at 300, decided to diet down and compete in a men's fitness show. His weight for the show was 220, without even being ripped, and this guy was a big boned 6'5".

I think many just don't realize how small they will end up looking in contest condition. Most naturals who claim impressive stats are fatter than they think so are deluded in believing how much weight they need to lose in order to obtain that sort of condition.
It exists among juicers too. Didn't Cswole think he would be 250lbs or something similar on stage?

[thegamechanger]

can i swap steroids with wearing smaller tshirts for the same effect with the ladies  

[cephissus]

Ok, just for the sake of debate let's say the lean mass and ht chart TA posted is a good working average.

Now let's look at height distributions within the world population.
( I'll use rounded numbers for the purpose of illustration)

50% of the men fall between 5'9" and 5'10"
Only  20% are 6 ft or taller. Or 80% are 5' 11.9" and under 6 ft tall

Only 2% are 6' 4" or taller

A very small fraction of a % are 7 ft or taller.

Now let's assume that muscle growth on  lean healthy males will have a similar distribution to other physical characteristic , like ht.

Aprox 50% of the males who get ultra lean, 5% body fat will be 5'9" and around 160-165 lbs.

1.the top 20% would be able to be same ht and fat% but achieve 175-180 lbs of body wt.
2.the top 10% could get to 190lbs, top 2% 195 lbs, top 1% 200 lbs.
3.the top 0.000001 % elite freak could be 210 ripped or  more ?

The TA posted chart is fine for an avg, but it assumes every male will be within the same standard deviation values for ht and lean mass.

That posted chart ignores basic statistical distributions that will occur within any population.

You start by supposing the distribution of attribute A is similar to the distribution of attribute B.  By the end of your post, you're taking it for granted.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.  Why do you believe it is, in this case?

[Thin Lizzy]

You start by supposing the distribution of attribute A is similar to the distribution of attribute B.  By the end of your post, you're taking it for granted.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.  Why do you believe it is, in this case?

He made the same assumption using IQ, as though the differences in IQ among people of the same height are exactly the same as that for muscle capacity.

Moreover, even if they are, it's not that big of a difference. If a person has the capacity to put on say 6 lbs of muscle, and another has a 50% greater capacity, it's only three pounds.

[Thin Lizzy]

I thought of that but figured my assumption was reasonable?

Ok back in high school  I was around 177 lbs at a lean 5'9" age 17.
I was a football player and track sprinter and being the 1970's I didn't lift wts. in high school.

Being realistic, I was likely around 10-11% bodyfat then.
Let's say I wanted  to be 5% body fat by age 18, so I slowly lost 10-11 lbs.
That means I would be 166 lbs and 5% at age 18 BEFORE I even started lifting.

You guys mean to tell me I couldn't gain 25 lbs of muscle from age 18-27 and compete drug free at 191 lbs?  
I don't think that's freakish or impossible. C'mon.
 

Break it down for us, Howard. How many pounds of muscle did you put on your delts? Your pecs? Your calves etc.?