Author Topic: bob paris on phil donahue  (Read 14428 times)

pellius

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Re: bob paris on phil donahue
« Reply #75 on: July 08, 2015, 07:43:19 PM »
How is gay marriage considered a "special right"?

Special rights are things that are allowed for certain groups but denied to others.  Like a church not paying taxes.  By the very instance of denying gays to marry, that would make heterosexual marriage a "special right".  



I've already addressed this several times in this thread. I will again because most people don't fully understand and conflate the issue of gay marriage vis-a-vis same sex marriage and existing rights and new rights.

I've repeated this over and over and over and over again and I am truly astounded how anyone fails to comprehend this very simple concept. I will try again. And to clarify for those that are dishonest and change the very premise of the debate when they find themselves on the losing end I am speaking of before the recent Supreme Court decision
allowing for Same Sex marriage.

Now to answer your question:

First of all, it is a misnomer to talk about "Gay Marriage". We are talking about Same Sex marriage. This is an important distinction because prior to the Supreme Court decision (I'm going to have to keep adding this in deference to the dishonest), Gays had the same rights as everybody else regardless if they are Heterosexuals, Lesbians, Polygamous or what have you in today's world. That being the right to marry someone of the opposite sex, again regardless of their sexual preference. Again, I want (have) to repeat, EVERYONE HAD THE LEGAL RIGHT TO MARRY SOMEONE OF THE OPPOSITE SEX. I like to quote Arnold on this when he was running for governor as it shows his wit and understanding of the issue, "I support gay marriage as long as it's between a man and a woman."

In the case of Same Sex marriage NO ONE had the legal right (to be endorse, recognized and protected by the government) to marry a member of the opposite sex. NO ONE, gay or straight. A new right was created. A right that has never existed in the history of this country or the world.

Prior to the recent Supreme Court decision.

NO ONE HAD THE LEGAL RIGHT TO MARRY A MEMBER OF THE SAME SEX.

EVERYONE HAD THE SAME RIGHT, AND EQUAL RIGHT, TO MARRY A MEMBER OF THE OPPOSITE SEX.

I simply can't make it any clearer than that and if you can't understand or comprehend this relatively simply concept then no debate is possible. The issue is not whether you agree or disagree with people marrying someone of the opposite sex but can you even grasp the concept of a practice and behavior that wasn't legally recognized as a right and to now do so constitutes a new right.

pellius

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Re: bob paris was on phil donahue
« Reply #76 on: July 08, 2015, 08:15:29 PM »
Where is proof of this?

Should the issue of interracial marriage and slavery be left to the States as well?

I've already address this issue and distinguished between someone's race and someone's sexuality. I am not going to do it again. Read what I wrote previously and I you want me to clarify something I will. If don't what to read what I wrote previously on this thread then no need to ask me the question again. My answer will not change in 24 hours.

And what do you mean by proof? Proof that we have a 10th Amendment? Proof that there are enumerated powers specifically stated and limited to the Federal Government in Article 1 Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution?

That's part of what the who debate is about. How we interpret these laws. Why the Civil War was fought. Was it only about slavery? You think nearly 600,000 from the North alone that were either killed, wounded, capture or missing fought in that war because they just wanted equal rights for Negroes? Even calling it a Civil War (like calling it Gay Marriage) is a misnomer as a Civil War is where a one group of the same nation seeks to overthrow the existing government and establish their own. No one wanted to overthrow Lincoln. The North wanted to secede from the South as was their right, the same right America used to secede from the British.
Calling it "The War Between the States", or better yet, "The War of Secession" would be more accurate as would be calling it the war between the "Confederates and Federals" instead of between the "South and North".

So to talk about "proof" is meaningless. It's about interpretation, what side you're on, and who wins the fight.

mr.turbo

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Re: bob paris on phil donahue
« Reply #77 on: July 08, 2015, 08:42:34 PM »
perhaps people are confused because you just referred to same sex marriage as the right to marry someone of the opposite sex...?

hope this helps



"

timfogarty

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Re: bob paris was on phil donahue
« Reply #78 on: July 08, 2015, 08:48:56 PM »
I've already address this issue and distinguished between someone's race and someone's sexuality.

Your argument is one of Immutable Characteristics vs. Chosen Behavior

1) race is a social construct. there are no genes that determine what race you belong to.  nor can you name a single feature that solely determines what race you belong to. and the definition of race changes over time and place.  Until very recently, white meant northern european.

2) sexual orientation is something you're born with. no behavior is required.  My first sexual experience was when I was 20.  I was not heterosexual the day before and homosexual the day after.

3) religion is something people choose, yet it is a protected class.  Lots of special privileges given to religions. (don't pay taxes on income, employers have to give reasonable accommodation, for example time off on religious holidays, dress code, facial hair)

Quote
NO ONE HAD THE LEGAL RIGHT TO MARRY A MEMBER OF THE SAME SEX.

EVERYONE HAD THE SAME RIGHT, AND EQUAL RIGHT, TO MARRY A MEMBER OF THE OPPOSITE SEX.

No one had the legal right to marry someone of a different race. Everyone had the right to marry someone of the same race.


Quote
The issue is not whether you agree or disagree with people marrying someone of the opposite sex but can you even grasp the concept of a practice and behavior that wasn't legally recognized as a right and to now do so constitutes a new right.

Now everyone has the right to marry the one that they love. (as long as they are of legal age and not too closely related) #loveWins

pellius

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Re: bob paris on phil donahue
« Reply #79 on: July 08, 2015, 09:25:04 PM »
perhaps people are confused because you just referred to same sex marriage as the right to marry someone of the opposite sex...?

hope this helps


Yes it does. Especially this particular issue where precise definitions are important.

In any debate, discussion or argument, I always want to leave open the possibility that I may be wrong. But whether right or wrong I also always want to be precise both in my language and reasoning.

The egregious and sloppy error has been corrected.

Zillotch

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Re: bob paris on phil donahue
« Reply #80 on: July 08, 2015, 09:50:08 PM »
the scientific community figured out that homosexuality is just a normal variation of sexuality

Sure. In reality homosexuality is completely fucking filthy, abnormal, and carries along with it a host of severe health consequences.

pellius

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Re: bob paris was on phil donahue
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2015, 10:10:34 PM »

Your argument is one of Immutable Characteristics vs. Chosen Behavior

1) race is a social construct. there are no genes that determine what race you belong to.  nor can you name a single feature that solely determines what race you belong to. and the definition of race changes over time and place.  Until very recently, white meant northern european.

You are not entirely inaccurate. Race isn't as cut and dried as people think. But there are certain biological traits and genetic markers that express themselves in varying frequencies among the human population. The obvious one being Black skin for Blacks yet there exists "Light Skinned" blacks. But this is what the goal is for the progressive. To blur or eliminate all distinctions. If you feel you are a woman you can be a woman and have to be treated as a woman. Or the recent case of a White woman, who has no history of any relative stemming from Africa, can call herself Black because she feels Black.

Many think this is a good thing. I don't. That's why we have these discussions. That why we have conflict in our society.


2) sexual orientation is something you're born with. no behavior is required.  My first sexual experience was when I was 20.  I was not heterosexual the day before and homosexual the day after.

Yes, I agree. Just like a heterosexual virgin or someone who takes the vow of chastity is still a heterosexual. Conversely, and this is something that most people can't understand; acting out a sexual behavior does necessarily mean you are of this bent. Specifically, for the sake of this discussion, engaging in gay behavior does not automatically make you gay as such. Again this is presuming that homosexuality is defined as being sexually attracted to a member of the same sex. A definition I except. In certain segments of our culture, if not the majority of our culture, being bisexual is now seen as chic and hip and many engage in such behavior so as to be in the "In" or "Cool" crowd. Another example is the amount of homosexual behavior that goes on in prison. It's not like when you become a felon your innate sexual orientation changes. There are a myriad of factors that determine one's sexual behavior and practices other than just physical attraction.  


3) religion is something people choose, yet it is a protected class.  Lots of special privileges given to religions. (don't pay taxes on income, employers have to give reasonable accommodation, for example time off on religious holidays, dress code, facial hair)

Yes, and I am against the majority, if not all, of those accommodations. I don't believe an employer in most cases has a legal obligation to observe other people's beliefs or practices -- religious or otherwise.  I don't even believe an employer has a legal obligation to pay for maternity leave. Having a child is a personal choice and no one else should be forced to finance that decision. If an employer chooses do it should be view as an employee BENEFIT and not an entitlement. And the idea that a woman should have a legal right to wear a burka if she wants to work at Hooters is just silly. You do give up some of your rights when you work for an employer


No one had the legal right to marry someone of a different race. Everyone had the right to marry someone of the same race.


Now everyone has the right to marry the one that they love. (as long as they are of legal age and not too closely related) #loveWins

"As long"? So there are limits. It's just that you want your limits to trump mine.
 
If love is a sufficient criteria to get married that leaves open endless possibilities. I can say with the utmost sincerity that I love my dog. But now that the definition of marriage has been redefined it now becomes an issue as to why other unions are nor permitted (legal age (marriage does not always imply or even include sexual relations and isn't "legal age" just another social construct?) or relatives (how close is too close?)).

But this is a discussion I want to pursue from your previous posts and reasons given. Understand, it's just me against the board defend my views and beliefs. Even though I believe I represent the majority once the arguments are understood and as reflected on elections and referendums it is the complacency of the majority that is causing them to lose. By varying estimate from a variety of groups and organization, the percentage of actual gay and lesbians are estimated to be between 2-5%. You would think it would be closer to 50% given their disproportional political clout. But when you are in the minority you are far more motivated to fight and be more active in your cause. You are the little guy that everyone wants to keep down. The majority, comfortable in their majority, are complacent. They only roused into action often when it's too late. There are many on this very board that agree with me. But they remain silent. They don't want to be bothered. They want to check out the Crossfit babes and make fun of Hurricane Beef. And it's not just because of the kind of board this is. They are like that in their everyday life. Just preoccupied doing their own thing and "will worry about it later".

Though it's a vastly different situation this is what has happened to Greece. Socialism is great. You live high on the hog at someone else's expense and beyond your means. It's a nice comfortable life -- until the money runs out. But there were only a few that were warning of this inevitability. But no cared because they were enjoying their constant vacations enjoying their wine and cheese.

timfogarty

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Re: bob paris on phil donahue
« Reply #82 on: July 09, 2015, 03:00:44 AM »
If love is a sufficient criteria to get married that leaves open endless possibilities. I can say with the utmost sincerity that I love my dog.

Do you know how offensive it is for you compare the love that you have towards a dog to the love that I have for the person I want to spend the rest of my life with?

Have you ever been in love?  Do you believe that same sex couples cannot feel the same intensity that opposite sex couples do?

The definition of marriage has changed.  It is no longer a business transaction between a man and one or more fathers of girls.  Now, most of the time anyway, it is about love.

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Re: bob paris on phil donahue
« Reply #83 on: July 09, 2015, 04:06:38 AM »
Do you know how offensive it is for you compare the love that you have towards a dog to the love that I have for the person I want to spend the rest of my life with?

Have you ever been in love?  Do you believe that same sex couples cannot feel the same intensity that opposite sex couples do?

The definition of marriage has changed.  It is no longer a business transaction between a man and one or more fathers of girls.  Now, most of the time anyway, it is about love.

Dont know, whats it like, can you describe it?

and most people have dogs longer than they are in relationships.

LurkerNoMore

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Re: bob paris on phil donahue
« Reply #84 on: July 09, 2015, 07:22:59 AM »
Someone trying to argue that gay marriage and same sex marriage is two different things really is having a hard time articulate his own thoughts, whatever they may be.

How can a gay marriage exist if it isn't a same sex marriage?         ???

Donny

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Re: bob paris on phil donahue
« Reply #85 on: July 09, 2015, 07:35:24 AM »
Dont know, whats it like, can you describe it?

and most people have dogs longer than they are in relationships.
I bet you know that Film "Animal Farm" donīt you?

Donny

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Re: bob paris on phil donahue
« Reply #86 on: July 09, 2015, 07:39:56 AM »
As far as a physique goes Bob Paris was called the new Steve reeves... says it all.

pellius

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Re: bob paris on phil donahue
« Reply #87 on: July 09, 2015, 11:16:25 PM »
Do you know how offensive it is for you compare the love that you have towards a dog to the love that I have for the person I want to spend the rest of my life with?

Have you ever been in love?  Do you believe that same sex couples cannot feel the same intensity that opposite sex couples do?

The definition of marriage has changed.  It is no longer a business transaction between a man and one or more fathers of girls.  Now, most of the time anyway, it is about love.

No. No I don't know how offensive it is. Why is it so offensive? I love my dog and plan to spend the rest of our lives together. What makes your love better than mine? How do you know how I feel about my dog? Many people love their pets a lot more than they do people. Nobody will ever get such unconditional love from their dog than they will from a person. Even from their mother.

You said everyone has the right to marry the ones they love. Now it's everyone has the right to marry the ones they love as long as Tim approves. You didn't want people limiting your rights. Now you want to limit others. What makes you think your love for your partner is better than my love for, say, my sister, whom I want to marry? And she is no longer able to have children. What if I say "how dare you compare or equate my love for a woman for your love for a man?" You would call me a bigot (again) and a homophobe.

So now it's not about "love". It's about love subject to your limitations and approval.

You want to redefine marriage. OK, you got it. But now you want to put limitations on others based on your bias and beliefs. All the reasons you gave as to why siblings shouldn't marry or why we shouldn't have polygamy I have refuted. You have not come back to counter my argument. You post some links and say "these are not my ideas".l  Well, lets start again. What are YOUR ideas as to why polygamy or sibling marriage shouldn't take place? None of those reason you gave are reasons the government doesn't recognize such unions. The reason is because marriage, prior to the recent Supreme Court decision, was clearly define. Polygamy did not fit the definition not because some of the partners or children would be neglected. Your links refer to polygamy as practiced in other countries where only a man can have multiple partners. Woman will be able to as well. And siblings can be in married relationships that guarantee they won't have children. But why should you or anybody else put limits on consenting adults as to whether or not they can have children? What business is it of yours to determine how healthy ones offspring should be before you allow them to procreate? As I mentioned before, do you want government to limit one's ability to marry based on what they perceive as whether or not they will have healthy offspring? Can a couple with Down's syndrome be allowed to marry? How about a couple where both have a family history of obesity and everyone in their family tree has been a drain on the health care system? You want to prevent them from marrying; as well as siblings, multiple partners or even their dog?

Even if they love each other.

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Re: bob paris on phil donahue
« Reply #88 on: July 10, 2015, 01:56:53 AM »
No. No I don't know how offensive it is. Why is it so offensive? I love my dog and plan to spend the rest of our lives together. What makes your love better than mine? How do you know how I feel about my dog? Many people love their pets a lot more than they do people. Nobody will ever get such unconditional love from their dog than they will from a person. Even from their mother.

You said everyone has the right to marry the ones they love. Now it's everyone has the right to marry the ones they love as long as Tim approves. You didn't want people limiting your rights. Now you want to limit others. What makes you think your love for your partner is better than my love for, say, my sister, whom I want to marry? And she is no longer able to have children. What if I say "how dare you compare or equate my love for a woman for your love for a man?" You would call me a bigot (again) and a homophobe.

So now it's not about "love". It's about love subject to your limitations and approval.

You want to redefine marriage. OK, you got it. But now you want to put limitations on others based on your bias and beliefs. All the reasons you gave as to why siblings shouldn't marry or why we shouldn't have polygamy I have refuted. You have not come back to counter my argument. You post some links and say "these are not my ideas".l  Well, lets start again. What are YOUR ideas as to why polygamy or sibling marriage shouldn't take place? None of those reason you gave are reasons the government doesn't recognize such unions. The reason is because marriage, prior to the recent Supreme Court decision, was clearly define. Polygamy did not fit the definition not because some of the partners or children would be neglected. Your links refer to polygamy as practiced in other countries where only a man can have multiple partners. Woman will be able to as well. And siblings can be in married relationships that guarantee they won't have children. But why should you or anybody else put limits on consenting adults as to whether or not they can have children? What business is it of yours to determine how healthy ones offspring should be before you allow them to procreate? As I mentioned before, do you want government to limit one's ability to marry based on what they perceive as whether or not they will have healthy offspring? Can a couple with Down's syndrome be allowed to marry? How about a couple where both have a family history of obesity and everyone in their family tree has been a drain on the health care system? You want to prevent them from marrying; as well as siblings, multiple partners or even their dog?

Even if they love each other.
solid post, awaiting retort