Author Topic: Televangelists  (Read 19475 times)

BigRo

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2015, 12:15:22 AM »
Jesus tells us that we are able to discern real disciples from fake disciples based on their behaviors....

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits."  Matthew 7:15-20

So... how does the person behave? What type of message are they preaching? Is the person preaching about sin, hell, repentance, and the crucifixion of Jesus, or is the person preaching about positive thinking, wealthiness, healthiness, and success?  Is the person walking like Jesus or just talking like Jesus?


I assume that you are limiting this question to televangelists.

No one is perfect...  not even sincere Christians doing their best to serve God.

But there have been some honest Jesus servers/televangelists.

Jerry Fallwell. Billy Graham. Charles Stanley. To name a few.


Most people automatically discredit Jimmy Swaggart because of the time he was involved with a prostitute. But as far as using donations to serve Christ, I know that Jimmy Swaggart has always been faithful to the Lord. And he has always preached a good, biblical message too.

The God of the Old Testament is the same God as the New Testament: Jesus!!!!

Here are some beautiful laws from the Old Testament, given by God:

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." (Deuteronomy 6:5)

"When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field right up to its edge, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the Lord your God." (Leviticus 19:9-10

"You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD." (Leviticus 19:18)

"The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." (Leviticus 19:34)


"And if you will indeed obey my commandments that I command you today, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, he will give the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the later rain, that you may gather in your grain and your wine and your oil. And he will give grass in your fields for your livestock, and you shall eat and be full." (Deuteronomy 11:13-15)






The god of the old testicle is a wrathful bastard, whereas Jesus is much more loving.

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2015, 12:16:25 AM »
The god of the old testicle is a wrathful bastard, whereas Jesus is much more loving.
He was bi-polar.

10pints

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2015, 12:35:18 AM »
Generally speaking, the more vocal someone is about religion, the more fucked in the head they are. So it makes sense that televangelists are a bunch of scamming, cheating assholes. However, it is hard to have sympathy for anyone who is taken in by their BS, as it is so obvious, and history is littered with examples of the sort of people who enter that field.

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2015, 12:43:13 AM »
Someone like Coach thinks they're wonderful
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Man of Steel

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2015, 08:42:59 AM »
Where is the line drawn on televangelists?   How does someone discern the fake from the phony?  If an evangelist is selling a book he wrote does that make the person a swindler or scoundrel?   Is it unbiblical for an evangelist to earn a living?   Do most folks that criticize televangelists have any understanding of the ministries beyond the generic objection posed or do they simply lump all ministers on television as crooks?

Me personally, I dislike the current "prosperity gospel" of a Creflo Dollar or Joel Osteen.   I find Osteen's teachings to be heretical at best.   The gospel is a not a pathway to lining your pockets.

If a televangelist doesn't align with scripture I don't listen to them.  How do you determine that?  You validate their teachings via scripture (provided they even utilize scripture.....I'm lookin at you Joel Osteen).  You study independently and inconjunction with other believers.  You hold your leaders accountable.

If a televangelist attempts to sell you a "special cross", "a scroll of blessings and prophecies" or a "blessed vile of holy water" I'm done with them.

If a televangelist stands opposed to the deity of Christ I'm instantly done with them.

Now, if a televangelist hosts a fundraiser or sells a book he wrote I have no problem with this provided their base teachings are scriptural and accurate.

To lump all televangelists into the same bucket of "charlatans" is just lazy and untrue.  It's a generic copout for those who'd never waste more than a few seconds of googling to "make their case" against the whole of televangelism.  

Now the lavish, ultra excess lifestyles of some televangelists is counter intuitive to the message of scripture, but the majority of time it's also aligned with a "prosperity gospel" ministry.

It's absolutely appropriate for a televangelist to earn a good living and even if some are blessed with a great deal of wealth I firmly believe that wealth should be keep quiet and out of the public eye.   I think about Job, David and Solomon.....all amassed a ton of wealth and were blessed by God.  Then I see the apostles and these were average Joes who had next to nothing and even gave up what little they had and eventually their lives in pursuit of the great commission of Christ.

Is Billy Graham a charlatan?  Doubtful.  Is the man perfect?  No frickin way.  
Is Charles Stanley a charlatan?  Doubtful.  is the man perfect?  No frickin way.  Endured a public divorce that rocked his ministry.

What about current evangelists like Tullian Tchividjian?  This man is a tremendous orator and speaks passionately for God.  He's also the grandson of Billy Graham.  Although, he recently resigned from his ministry because of an adulterous relationship he had with a woman in his congregation.  Does that make him a charlatan?  The anti-Godders would immediately say "yes, there you go!"  No, it makes him human and confirms he's fallible.  Should he be allowed to preach again?  Absolutely, but I believe he should be counciled and reviewed by the church first and slowly work his way back into a position of leadership and trust.  

Everyone remembers Jimmy Swaggart crying out on tv in the 80s exclaiming "I have sinned!!"  Tears and snot and all that mess.  People aren't perfect, but if you're that high profile you need to lead by example every second of everyday.....sorry but you do IMHO.  If you're a high-ranking, highly recognizable religious leader, a representative of Christ, then you need to be Christlike....that simple.  

Man of Steel

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2015, 08:49:35 AM »
The god of the old testicle is a wrathful bastard, whereas Jesus is much more loving.

Examples of the OT God being a wrathful bastard and examples of Jesus being so much more loving would be helpful.

Then we can dive into context.

Further, I'd assume any examples wouldn't be based on the following:

1) God passing judgment upon the evil and reprobate who had centuries to repent.
2) Confusing the evil choices of men with the righteous actions of God.
3) God working within the confines of peoples' lives slowly guiding them out of their sinful practices.

Man of Steel

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2015, 08:52:49 AM »
Generally speaking, the more vocal someone is about religion, the more fucked in the head they are. So it makes sense that televangelists are a bunch of scamming, cheating assholes. However, it is hard to have sympathy for anyone who is taken in by their BS, as it is so obvious, and history is littered with examples of the sort of people who enter that field.

Let me understand the logic:  If someone is vocal about religion they are "f'd in the head" and therefore televangelists are scamming, cheating a'holes.

Utilizing that logic:  MOS is vocal about religion and and that makes him "f'd in the head" and therefore Billy Graham is a scamming, cheating a'hole.

Brilliant.

dr.chimps

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2015, 08:57:12 AM »
Let me understand the logic:  If someone is vocal about religion they are "f'd in the head" and therefore televangelists are scamming, cheating a'holes.

Utilizing that logic:  MOS is vocal about religion and and that makes him "f'd in the head" and therefore Billy Graham is a scamming, cheating a'hole.

Brilliant.
False equivalency, but you know this, already. 

10pints

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2015, 08:58:54 AM »
Let me understand the logic:  If someone is vocal about religion they are "f'd in the head" and therefore televangelists are scamming, cheating a'holes.

Utilizing that logic:  MOS is vocal about religion and and that makes him "f'd in the head" and therefore Billy Graham is a scamming, cheating a'hole.

Brilliant.

As I understood it, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but don't televangelists talk about religion? A man of your intellectual stature can surely connect those dots.

BigRo

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2015, 08:59:29 AM »
Examples of the OT God being a wrathful bastard and examples of Jesus being so much more loving would be helpful.

Then we can dive into context.

I,m sure you know yourself. The sermon on the mount for example is quite different from the way God acts in the old testement.

10pints

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2015, 08:59:41 AM »
False equivalency, but you know this, already. 

Bravo Sir.

Man of Steel

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2015, 09:04:25 AM »
False equivalency, but you know this, already.  

The false equivalency could be applied to the initial premise proposed by 10pints, but not to the application and demonstration of his logical premise.

In actuality the logic is a non sequitur, but you know this already I'm sure.

Man of Steel

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2015, 09:08:43 AM »
As I understood it, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but don't televangelists talk about religion? A man of your intellectual stature can surely connect those dots.

Yes they do, but that isn't what was proposed.  We can work with that new assumption if you'd like.

"Billy Graham is vocal about religion and and that makes him "f'd in the head" and therefore Billy Graham is a scamming, cheating a'hole."

Dots connected a bit better?  Now, explain to me the flow of logic because I don't understand.

10pints

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2015, 09:12:44 AM »
Yes they do, but that isn't what was proposed.  We can work with that new assumption if you'd like.

"Billy Graham is vocal about religion and and that makes him "f'd in the head" and therefore Billy Graham is a scamming, cheating a'hole."

Dots connected a bit better?  Now, explain to me the flow of logic because I don't understand.

Is context such an alien concept to you? I think you are proving my point about religious people being fucked in the head.

Man of Steel

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2015, 09:23:17 AM »
I,m sure you know yourself. The sermon on the mount for example is quite different from the way God acts in the old testement.
And so were the people it was preached to.   They are often referred to as "bronze age goatherders", but they had slowly been guided over multiple generations and centuries into a more refined, God-fearing, stable society that stood more opposed to sin.  Were they perfect?  LOL, no way.  Still, the judgments handed out in the OT were much different than the lessons of the NT because the peoples being dealt with in the OT were engaging in horrific behaviors that would make Charles Manson blush.

I often question why God-haters are so dismissive of God and so quick to support the reprobate of the OT?  Why is that God becomes the reprobate and the reprobate become righteous?

Man of Steel

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2015, 09:24:09 AM »
Is context such an alien concept to you? I think you are proving my point about religious people being fucked in the head.

No, the concept is quite familiar to me, but that doesn't make it correct or logical.  I comprehend all sorts of illogical things.

I you think so then fine.  Although I do notice you're avoiding my questions and requests for clarification.


Victor VonDoom

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2015, 09:35:27 AM »
Anyone else old enough to remember the Ernest Angley Hour?  He used to miraculously  "heal" people on television with a touch.  Hard to believe the crowds of people who followed him.  They couldn't all have been actors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Angley

He faded away as he got older but damn!

Doom disapproves.

Parker

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2015, 09:43:32 AM »
Creflo Dollar best name for a preacher lol his sap suckers parishners bought him a $65 Million dollar plane so he can do the lord's work at close to the speed of sound. !!

Pastor Creflo Dollar might get his $65 million private jet after all

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/06/03/pastor-creflo-dollar-might-get-his-65-million-private-jet-after-all/

65 million could best be put to use by being donated to the local university or start a school to help those with their finances or get a GED.

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2015, 09:51:43 AM »
65 million could best be put to use by being donated to the local university or start a school to help those with their finances or get a GED.

I hear that a lot of HBCU's are suffering money problems too , that money could have went a long way. Reminds me of Malcolm X the movie where Brother Baines tells Malcolm

You know our people. They want their leaders to be prosperous. One hand washes the other. ( Malcolm's response ) "l'm telling you God's words, not no hustle.

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2015, 09:58:27 AM »
There are people at my work that give 10% of their salary to their church then complain year long how they can't afford gas for their car or other things.  Fucking morons.

Man of Steel

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2015, 10:11:28 AM »
There are people at my work that give 10% of their salary to their church then complain year long how they can't afford gas for their car or other things.  Fucking morons.

Yes, this behavior seems to contradict scripture....IMHO.

When you look at OT scripture the Israelites gave way more than 10%....more in the neighborhood of 35%.  I've read over 40%.

I have no problem if folks give 10% or use that as guide, but often times folks can give more than 10% and should if the Spirit leads them to do so. 

I just give generously as Christ instructed....I draw a great deal of joy from doing so. 

I keep my giving between me and the Lord though...only audience I need.

2 Corinthians 9:7
7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.


The idea of giving via compulsion is what strikes me.  Certainly a person can routinely give and do so with a genuine desire to give, but that notion of compulsion often cools the giver's heart.   The Lord didn't intend for us to give with the idea of, "C'MON YOU DOGS!!  GIVE!! GIVE!! GIVE!! Or......buuuuuuuuuuuurn."

If you give/tithe and then complain about that giving then you've essentially negated the sincere motivation of the giving.

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2015, 10:25:50 AM »

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2015, 10:33:12 AM »
What would Tom Cruise do?  ???

BigRo

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2015, 11:08:01 AM »
And so were the people it was preached to.   They are often referred to as "bronze age goatherders", but they had slowly been guided over multiple generations and centuries into a more refined, God-fearing, stable society that stood more opposed to sin.  Were they perfect?  LOL, no way.  Still, the judgments handed out in the OT were much different than the lessons of the NT because the peoples being dealt with in the OT were engaging in horrific behaviors that would make Charles Manson blush.

I often question why God-haters are so dismissive of God and so quick to support the reprobate of the OT?  Why is that God becomes the reprobate and the reprobate become righteous?

Who was do the guiding over multiple generations? Who was doing the preaching? God spoke to such and such and people believed him and thus it is taken as the word of God. Maybe it is, maybe not, or maybe alot of the divine inspiration is filtered through unconscious minds. Either way the God of the old testament does not sound more evolved than the people that are being preached too.

I hope you are not calling me God hater.

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Re: Televangelists
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2015, 11:16:05 AM »
Where is the line drawn on televangelists?   How does someone discern the fake from the phony?  If an evangelist is selling a book he wrote does that make the person a swindler or scoundrel?   Is it unbiblical for an evangelist to earn a living?   Do most folks that criticize televangelists have any understanding of the ministries beyond the generic objection posed or do they simply lump all ministers on television as crooks?

Me personally, I dislike the current "prosperity gospel" of a Creflo Dollar or Joel Osteen.   I find Osteen's teachings to be heretical at best.   The gospel is a not a pathway to lining your pockets.

If a televangelist doesn't align with scripture I don't listen to them.  How do you determine that?  You validate their teachings via scripture (provided they even utilize scripture.....I'm lookin at you Joel Osteen).  You study independently and inconjunction with other believers.  You hold your leaders accountable.

If a televangelist attempts to sell you a "special cross", "a scroll of blessings and prophecies" or a "blessed vile of holy water" I'm done with them.

If a televangelist stands opposed to the deity of Christ I'm instantly done with them.

Now, if a televangelist hosts a fundraiser or sells a book he wrote I have no problem with this provided their base teachings are scriptural and accurate.

To lump all televangelists into the same bucket of "charlatans" is just lazy and untrue.  It's a generic copout for those who'd never waste more than a few seconds of googling to "make their case" against the whole of televangelism.  

Now the lavish, ultra excess lifestyles of some televangelists is counter intuitive to the message of scripture, but the majority of time it's also aligned with a "prosperity gospel" ministry.

It's absolutely appropriate for a televangelist to earn a good living and even if some are blessed with a great deal of wealth I firmly believe that wealth should be keep quiet and out of the public eye.   I think about Job, David and Solomon.....all amassed a ton of wealth and were blessed by God.  Then I see the apostles and these were average Joes who had next to nothing and even gave up what little they had and eventually their lives in pursuit of the great commission of Christ.

Is Billy Graham a charlatan?  Doubtful.  Is the man perfect?  No frickin way.  
Is Charles Stanley a charlatan?  Doubtful.  is the man perfect?  No frickin way.  Endured a public divorce that rocked his ministry.

What about current evangelists like Tullian Tchividjian?  This man is a tremendous orator and speaks passionately for God.  He's also the grandson of Billy Graham.  Although, he recently resigned from his ministry because of an adulterous relationship he had with a woman in his congregation.  Does that make him a charlatan?  The anti-Godders would immediately say "yes, there you go!"  No, it makes him human and confirms he's fallible.  Should he be allowed to preach again?  Absolutely, but I believe he should be counciled and reviewed by the church first and slowly work his way back into a position of leadership and trust.  

Everyone remembers Jimmy Swaggart crying out on tv in the 80s exclaiming "I have sinned!!"  Tears and snot and all that mess.  People aren't perfect, but if you're that high profile you need to lead by example every second of everyday.....sorry but you do IMHO.  If you're a high-ranking, highly recognizable religious leader, a representative of Christ, then you need to be Christlike....that simple.  

I tend to believe they should forfeit the pulpit. I think their congregation should demand it. No one's kicking 'em outta the church or turning their backs, just insisting they step down, same way we take an incompetent cop's badge. Obviously TOO fallible for the position.

My thoughts, anyway.