Author Topic: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread  (Read 596388 times)

Sokolsky

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3050 on: February 19, 2016, 08:02:43 AM »
Thats not what I meant, and you know it,. he shouldn't pick and choose if he expects people to believe his "I believe everyone is entitled to..." mantra.

Everyone is indeed entitled to a fair trail and an unbiased defense.
Doesn't mean Harley needs to represent everyone he meets.
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dr.chimps

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3051 on: February 19, 2016, 08:10:21 AM »
Youse guys are mixing up lawyering with morality. And, justice is a whole 'nother ting.

/look for a '13' tattoo

Simple Simon

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3052 on: February 19, 2016, 08:40:39 AM »
Everyone is indeed entitled to a fair trail and an unbiased defense.
Doesn't mean Harley needs to represent everyone he meets.
He does tend to represent quite a few pieces of shit though doesnt he?
The trial of the guy accused of raping the 5 year old for example.
Seems he felt that guy was deserving of his services.

Maybe he needs to have an affinity with the people he represents, not sure how else hes going to base his choices.

Kim Jong Bob

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3053 on: February 19, 2016, 09:30:58 AM »
He does tend to represent quite a few pieces of shit though doesnt he?
The trial of the guy accused of raping the 5 year old for example.
Seems he felt that guy was deserving of his services.

Maybe he needs to have an affinity with the people he represents, not sure how else hes going to base his choices.
yeah every defense lawyer  shouold only represent inocent people otherwise  they support crimimals   ::)

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3054 on: February 19, 2016, 09:34:24 AM »
yeah every defense lawyer  shouold only represent inocent people otherwise  they support crimimals   ::)

This.
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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3055 on: February 19, 2016, 10:51:15 AM »
Making some good points, Sokolsky.  Overall good posts.

Simple Simon

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3056 on: February 19, 2016, 11:35:09 AM »
yeah every defense lawyer  shouold only represent inocent people otherwise  they support crimimals   ::)
thats a good point, it doesnt really counter the point I was making though.

For the record, lawyers only represent innocent people.    ;)
The only guilty people they represent are those seeking an appeal.

dr.chimps

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3057 on: February 19, 2016, 11:44:25 AM »
thats a good point, it doesnt really counter the point I was making though.

For the record, lawyers only represent innocent people.    ;)
The only guilty people they represent are those seeking an appeal.
Hey, high and mighty. Been told that the only shitty clients are the truly innocent. Digest that.   :-\

Simple Simon

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3058 on: February 19, 2016, 12:22:21 PM »
Hey, high and mighty. Been told that the only shitty clients are the truly innocent. Digest that.   :-\
Did "they" tell you, or was it "the man in the pub"?

dr.chimps

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3059 on: February 19, 2016, 12:28:28 PM »
Did "they" tell you, or was it "the man in the pub"?
Kinda funny.

Sokolsky

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3060 on: February 19, 2016, 01:48:54 PM »
the SS officers and soldiers who tortured and killed thousands during the war were just doing their job, are you saying that after the war all repercussions are off?

and you have to remember Harley relishes in his victories when he gets a scumbag off the hook, for him its getting one over on the system.
Go read his posts.

The argument of "just doing their job" is only applicable within certain parameters. There is a huge difference between a soldier fighting in the trenches, and a doctor Mengele conducting human trails. Personal accountability comes in when individuals go beyond 'reasonable' activities associated with their job. Hence why individuals who were deemed to have peformed despicable acts were prosecuted in subsequent Nuremberg trials.

A soldier in the trenches taking shots at the 'enemy' is vastly different from a camp security guard pooring Zyklone-B into the gaschambers.

Despite what role the SS may have played, individuals still have the right to a fair trail. And as such also have the right to an atterney.
Now you might think; who the hell would defend a Nazi, much less an SS officer?. Well, how else will you get to the truth? How else will you ensure the proper functioning of the judicial system? How else will you prove that in the bigger picture, you were indeed right to intervene and take action against the Nazi regime?

Ensuring a fair trail, making sure the proper proceedings are followed, to reach the right verdict. Has many, many implications. It ensures innocent people are not victimized by the judicial system, it in turn provides legitimacy to the judicial system, legitimacy to democracy, the proper functioning of the state and not least providing closure to those affected.

Not discounting scumbags do indeed sometimes get off. Which is regrettable. But this is an intrinsic part of a flawed system. Which becomes a little less flawed everytime a case reaches the 'right' verdict, and procedures and individuals working within the system become more efficient.

He does tend to represent quite a few pieces of shit though doesnt he?
The trial of the guy accused of raping the 5 year old for example.
Seems he felt that guy was deserving of his services.

Maybe he needs to have an affinity with the people he represents, not sure how else hes going to base his choices.

There are good apples, bad apples, and questionable apples. Only by investigating, analyzing and assessing will you know which is which.
But for that you will need a system to ensure that;
- that good apples are labeled as good apples
- bad apples are labeled as bad
- and the questionable apples are sorted in the applicable boxes.

You need people on both side of the fence, to make sure that each player does their job. This is basic checks-and-balances.
Whether Harley has ensured proper proceedings for "quite a few pieces of shit", I honestly wouldn't know, as I did not have a look at his case history, nor do I care for it. However, it is clear your opinion about individuals is shaped prior, without having full-disclosure.
The trails are a process to find the truth, to both protect the innocent, while handing out appropriate punishment to the guilty. Yes, sometimes the system fails, which may be especially hard to swallow for some. But a criminal is only a criminal for the law if found guilty and convicted. That's how it is. And so long as people are finding loopholes, and bad protocols, there is a chance to improve the system.
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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3061 on: February 19, 2016, 02:00:35 PM »
Who said guilty people don't deserve basic rights?

The overwhelming consensus is that everyone deserves a fair trial and that justice is done. The issue is that a guilty or not guilty person not get justice due to technicalities and slick "lawyering".
So whats the answer?

You only apply the law when it is in the outcome you desire?

The rules are all there... the lawyers follow them. They don't make them up.   

So if the lawyer was "slick" then is that just another way of saying he did the best possible job defending his client?

Can the defense lawyer be held accountable for a judge being corrupt or a prosecutor working for the state being poor at their job?

Simple Simon

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3062 on: February 19, 2016, 02:03:13 PM »
The argument of "just doing their job" is only applicable within certain parameters. There is a huge difference between a soldier fighting in the trenches, and a doctor Mengele conducting human trails. Personal accountability comes in when individuals go beyond 'reasonable' activities associated with their job. Hence why individuals who were deemed to have peformed despicable acts were prosecuted in subsequent Nuremberg trials.

A soldier in the trenches taking shots at the 'enemy' is vastly different from a camp security guard pooring Zyklone-B into the gaschambers.

Despite what role the SS may have played, individuals still have the right to a fair trail. And as such also have the right to an atterney.
Now you might think; who the hell would defend a Nazi, much less an SS officer?. Well, how else will you get to the truth? How else will you ensure the proper functioning of the judicial system? How else will you prove that in the bigger picture, you were indeed right to intervene and take action against the Nazi regime?

Ensuring a fair trail, making sure the proper proceedings are followed, to reach the right verdict. Has many, many implications. It ensures innocent people are not victimized by the judicial system, it in turn provides legitimacy to the judicial system, legitimacy to democracy, the proper functioning of the state and not least providing closure to those affected.

Not discounting scumbags do indeed sometimes get off. Which is regrettable. But this is an intrinsic part of a flawed system. Which becomes a little less flawed everytime a case reaches the 'right' verdict, and procedures and individuals working within the system become more efficient.

There are good apples, bad apples, and questionable apples. Only by investigating, analyzing and assessing will you know which is which.
But for that you will need a system to ensure that;
- that good apples are labeled as good apples
- bad apples are labeled as bad
- and the questionable apples are sorted in the applicable boxes.

You need people on both side of the fence, to make sure that each player does their job. This is basic checks-and-balances.
Whether Harley has ensured proper proceedings for "quite a few pieces of shit", I honestly wouldn't know, as I did not have a look at his case history, nor do I care for it. However, it is clear your opinion about individuals is shaped prior, without having full-disclosure.
The trails are a process to find the truth, to both protect the innocent, while handing out appropriate punishment to the guilty. Yes, sometimes the system fails, which may be especially hard to swallow for some. But a criminal is only a criminal for the law if found guilty and convicted. That's how it is. And so long as people are finding loopholes, and bad protocols, there is a chance to improve the system.

You seem to be putting a lot of effort into your posts responding to someone whos just fucking about.

pellius

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3063 on: February 19, 2016, 04:37:58 PM »
Precisely. I'm not meaning to attack Harley for the sake of it but in light of the recent cases he has shared with us, i feel it does raise some interesting points and i find his stance questionable. I know Harley has previously articulated the need to remain impartial in order to ensure that the state is functioning in an unbiased manner in accordance to the laws that it has set, and he has already freely admitted that he removes himself from the cases which he feels personally affected by, such as animal cruelty or hypothetically defending a Nazi. I understand this but it negates any argument that he remains impartial, as he chooses the cases he takes on, based upon his ability to remain neutral or not. I mentioned previously that i could not understand the distinction he is able to make regarding defending a paedophile or an animal abuser; both are deplorable and he noted that he can’t quite explain why he is able to do so. If Harley isn't willing to hypothetically defend a 19 year old who killed his grandfather upon orders- in a time of war, then i also fail to see how he is able to defend a teenager who knocked somebody’s grandfather unconscious in an unprovoked attack which could well have resulted in death, and was done as part of a "game".

It means that he doesn't remain impartial, and he doesn't defend people based upon the need to ensure a fair trial. It seems disingenuous to advise your client to plead not guilty in a case which has concrete video evidence to prove otherwise and it would indicate to me that he is more concerned with winning a game of one-upmanship against the “bureaucrats” of the state, rather than ensuring justice is served. Surely in a case such as this, where it is arguable that the accused allegedly suffers from mental health issues, the only tenable position to take would be to advise him to plead guilty and seek leniency in sentencing due to diminished responsibility; ensuring that the accused is at least locked up in a secure hospital, rather than free to roam the streets again, risking the lives of innocent members of society?

The other example he gave regarding the alleged rape of a 5 year old was shocking to read. Granted, it may have been down to his poor wording, but to describe a child of that age as a “habitual liar” seems to be egregiously inappropriate, as is claiming that the alleged rapist did not receive a fair trial in his opinion, therefore he was happy in the not guilty verdict, and enjoyed being able to shove the verdict down the government’s necks. He said it himself: "I were to get "someone off on a technicality" I would view that as a win. I found the technicality, I told the State and they still couldn't stop me. The role of a Defense Attorney is not to "seek justice" but rather, ensure that an INJUSTICE in terms of the legality of the investigation"

That’s why i asked Harley how he would argue against the Nazi’s defence of "just doing my job" if he was prosecutor. I am sure he would be able to argue against this brilliantly, but i believe he would be making a rod for his own back in doing so.
Again, i don’t wish to attack Harley unnecessarily, and appreciate that he does a lot for people on here. I just think the recent cases discussed here are worthy of debate, and it would be interesting to hear any opposing views from Harley or Khan, perhaps.

A very, very challenging and thought provoking post. I "gulped" at least twice reading it.

pellius

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3064 on: February 19, 2016, 04:47:24 PM »
Thats not what I meant, and you know it,. he shouldn't pick and choose if he expects people to believe his "I believe everyone is entitled to..." mantra.

Actually, I didn't know it. Everyone picks and choose and it's not inconsistent with the mantra that "everyone in entitled to."

Every fat chick is entitled to a boyfriend, just not with me.

pellius

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3065 on: February 19, 2016, 04:53:28 PM »
The real issue is that such technicalities and 'slick lawyering' are able to influence outcomes. Which indicates there are major flaws in the system, since they are apparently readily available to be exploited. As such, people like Harley are doing a service in bringing such technicalities and loopholes to the forefront, allowing for future; - better prosecution, - better sentencing. This, in the long-run, will ensure proper functioning of the system.

You guys are way too hung up on single cases, and don't focus enough on the bigger picture. Harley is but a gear in an immense adminstrative machine, which has the power to dramatically change the lives of those being prosecuted, whether innocent or not. The technicalities on which a gun-point robber gets off today, may drive the prosecutor to not make any mistakes in the next case involving a serial-killer, and so on. Harley is providing a service, not only to his clients but the system as a whole.

Does this mean that Harley will be happy if lets say a child-molester gets off on a technicality (who otherwise would be found guilty), to then go on to molest? No. Ofcourse not. Harley is responsible for the proper functioning of the system, himself included. And only that. His task ends after a verdict is made. He is not responsible for the behaviour of his clients after that, however putrid it may be.

Once again, this does not mean Harley is devoid of opinion or bias. Simply that to perform his job well, such feelings should not influence outcomes.
If the above example of the hypothetical child molester does indeed go on to molest children and is later found guilty, I'm sure Harley will reflect.

However, he cannot be held accountable for the actions of others. Look at convicted criminals who are repeat offenders?
When a sentence is served they are re-introduced into society on the premise they have 'paid for their crime'. Yet if they then go on to commit another crime, how will you argue then? The sentence wasn't high enough? The prosecutors didn't push hard enough? Ofcourse not, because you assume people are responsible for their own actions, and that they learn from their mistakes and won't repeat them. Yet, some still do.

Unless we go back to less civil ways where people are hung or flung into a river whilst bagged, such permanent solutions do not exist. And we are to belief in the better nature of man. Maximizing the efficiency of the justice system, in an attempt to deter future violations and crimes. Harley, and others, are doing just that.


Yes, there are flaws in the system. Is it justice that a guilty person gets off because they are exploited? Say that knock out guy gets off because he claims he didn't hear his rights read because there was ambulance blazing by at the same time (true story), would that be justice? If a cop makes a mistake in procedure or even violates the law that should be a separate case. He should be charged in a separated case. It should not distract from the fact that the prep was guilty.

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3066 on: February 19, 2016, 05:02:35 PM »
Personally, I dislike when scummy lawyers work the system to reduce a persons sentence, i.e., a child molester gets 4 years instead of 15 years.

Lets not ignore the fact that there is something specific about Harley's personality that allows him to make deals with the court regarding scummy people. I could never be criminal defense lawyer because my conscience would eat away at me. The fact that Harley has no issues getting a child molester off with a reduced sentence does show something about his personality. Most people would be mortified by this.

So, while Harley is doing his job, we can't ignore the fact that there is something fundamental about who Harley is, which allows him to sleep at night, knowing full well that a child molester is roaming the streets because he got them a reduced sentence. Hell, there are many jobs I wouldn't do because I don't have the personality for it. One of them is being a criminal defense lawyer.
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pellius

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3067 on: February 19, 2016, 05:15:03 PM »
So whats the answer?

You only apply the law when it is in the outcome you desire?

The rules are all there... the lawyers follow them. They don't make them up.   

So if the lawyer was "slick" then is that just another way of saying he did the best possible job defending his client?

Can the defense lawyer be held accountable for a judge being corrupt or a prosecutor working for the state being poor at their job?

I'm completely sure what you mean. I was disputing your accusation that some are saying that guilty people don't deserve basic rights. I don't think anybody is saying that.

When you ask "what's the answer?" I'm going to assume you mean what to do about the slick lawyers that get people off on technicalities. Meaning things having nothing to do with the crime itself but procedure. I remember a case where a rapist, jailed and released multiple times, got off on yet another rape as he claimed he was beaten up by the cops. He did resist arrest, that was determined as factual, what was so clear was what constituted being beaten up. This was before every facet of our lives are now recorded on film. He got off even though there was no doubt he raped the women. She was severely beaten up and he didn't use a condom so DNA was confirmed. Still, he got off -- on a technicality.

What's the answer? Nothing. Just try to get as wealthy as possible as money protects you from so, so many things. But there is an answer for the individual lawyer. Sort of. Since we're talking about Harley we ask that he examine himself and do some soul searching. Does he want to be the type of man that will get a guilty person off just because he can? Sometimes people do things because that's what he was trained to do. Sometimes if a person starts to examine what they do and the repercussions  it might put a different perspective on things.

BTW, I am not in any way saying that Harley gets people off on technicalities.

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3068 on: February 19, 2016, 10:29:02 PM »
Harley, will you be defending Jared?

Ex-Subway pitchman Fogle seeks shorter prison sentence


An attorney for former Subway pitchman Jared Fogle is asking a federal appeals court to shorten the more than 15-year prison sentence he received for possessing child pornography and paying for sex with underage girls.
   
The appeal filed Friday argues that the District Court judge in Indianapolis abused her authority by giving Fogle a sentence three years longer than the maximum term prosecutors agreed to pursue as part of his plea deal.
   
The appeal argues that the judge's sentence is unreasonable and undermines the trust needed to negotiate plea agreements.
   
Fogle was sentenced in November on one count each of distributing and receiving child porn and traveling to engage in illicit sexual conduct with a child.
   
A spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office declined to comment on Fogle's appeal.

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TuHolmes

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3069 on: February 19, 2016, 10:42:15 PM »
Is Harley licensed to practice law in Indiana?

SF1900

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3070 on: February 19, 2016, 10:50:02 PM »
Is Harley licensed to practice law in Indiana?

If there is a child molester to be defended and money to be made, Harley will find a way to get licensed in Indiana!!
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OB1

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3071 on: February 19, 2016, 10:51:06 PM »
If there is a child molester to be defended and money to be made, Harley will find a way to get licensed in Indiana!!

LOL.
Come on.
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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3072 on: February 20, 2016, 01:54:18 AM »
thats a good point, it doesnt really counter the point I was making though.

For the record, lawyers only represent innocent people.    ;)
The only guilty people they represent are those seeking an appeal.
i haha good point

Simple Simon

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3073 on: February 20, 2016, 03:07:35 AM »
Harley, will you be defending Jared?

Ex-Subway pitchman Fogle seeks shorter prison sentence


An attorney for former Subway pitchman Jared Fogle is asking a federal appeals court to shorten the more than 15-year prison sentence he received for possessing child pornography and paying for sex with underage girls.
   
The appeal filed Friday argues that the District Court judge in Indianapolis abused her authority by giving Fogle a sentence three years longer than the maximum term prosecutors agreed to pursue as part of his plea deal.
   
The appeal argues that the judge's sentence is unreasonable and undermines the trust needed to negotiate plea agreements.
   
Fogle was sentenced in November on one count each of distributing and receiving child porn and traveling to engage in illicit sexual conduct with a child.
   
A spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office declined to comment on Fogle's appeal.


there should be no such thing as plea agreements, they either have evidence top convict or not.
Plea deals are made by shitbags who should get life who get a lesser sentence to convenience the court.

Sokolsky

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #3074 on: February 20, 2016, 03:15:04 AM »
You seem to be putting a lot of effort into your posts responding to someone whos just fucking about.

Only takes me a couple of minutes to jot down some thoughts in between breaks.
Makes for a good chance of topics inbetween digging through EU mechanisms and legislation.
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