New York is the first city in the US to add sodium warnings to menus

[Dos Equis]

What is it with NYC and this constant attempt to create a nanny state? 

New York is the first city in the US to add sodium warnings to menus
Updated by Julia Belluz on December 1, 2015
@juliaoftoronto julia.belluz@voxmedia.com


Do you want to know how much salt lurks in your big slice?      

For years, New York City has served as a petri dish for public health experiments. The city was the first to ban trans fats and the first to mandate calorie menu labeling at restaurants. Now New York will also be the first US city to tackle excess salt consumption with new menu labels.


(New York Department of Health)

Starting December 1, all chain restaurants with 15 or more locations nationwide will have to post a little salt shaker symbol next to menu items that contain more than 2,300 milligrams of sodium (about a teaspoon worth). Restaurants will also be required to warn consumers that eating a lot of salt can increase the risk of heart disease and stroke.

But will this initiative actually encourage people to eat healthier? Probably not. Based on the research we have on calorie menu labeling, this experiment likely won't have a huge direct impact ... though it could have smaller indirect effects.

Here's why. First, the rule only applies to foods that are wildly, excessively salty. To put this in context, 2,300 milligrams is the daily recommended limit for total sodium consumption. New York's law will only apply to individual foods that reach that level all by themselves. Why the city didn't set a lower warning threshold is unclear, but it means the labels will miss all the heavily salted foods that stay under that limit — like the meatball sandwich at the Olive Garden shown here, which contains nearly a day's worth of sodium:



The rule is also limited in another way: It'll only apply to bigger chain restaurants, which the health department estimates captures about 10 percent of the restaurant foods people eat. So New Yorkers may now get a quick sense of whether their Panera sandwich is too salty, but they won't know if there's a load of salt in the meals they buy at their local sushi bar every week.

Finally, it's not clear that menu labeling actually has any impact on health outcomes. The best evidence we have on the question relates to calorie labeling, and it's pretty mixed. It appears that people who are already calorie-conscious do pay attention to labels, but those who aren't don't. In other words, just having that information displayed doesn't change people's behaviors.

That said, the sodium label could have a few indirect consequences. In particular, newer research has suggested that calorie labeling can compel chains to cut the number of calories in their fare. Maybe the sodium labels will have the same result. And at the very least, it's a step toward transparency and giving people a better sense of what's in the food they're eating.

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/1/9822268/new-york-sodium-menu-label

[WOOO]

What's wrong with encouraging consumer awareness

[OzmO]

I don't see a problem with this.  I kind of like seeing the calorie counts of things anyway.  I think restaurants add too much salt.  Its good to know in order to make a informed decision.

Otherwise where can i get the info from?

[Dos Equis]

What's wrong with encouraging consumer awareness

Nothing.  I have a problem with forcing small businesses to incur the expense of doing this. 

[240 is Back]

not a bad idea.   

sodium can cause way more damage than "calories".  Americans throwing down 1800 mg of sodium with a hot dog because they can live with the calories.

Info is a good thing.  People have the FREEDOM to use it as they wish.  and the macro effect can be lower national healthcare costs.  I teach my rugrats to read labels to decide if something is bad for them.... yet people are 'outraged' about adults just having access to a label?  Whining about anything...

[Dos Equis]

I don't see a problem with this.  I kind of like seeing the calorie counts of things anyway.  I think restaurants add too much salt.  Its good to know in order to make a informed decision.

Otherwise where can i get the info from?

The internet.  My Fitness Pal (great app).  And many restaurants already provide various levels of nutritional information on their menus. 

They should encourage restaurants to do this and maybe even offer a tax incentive, but not by force. 

[Al Doggity]

The internet.  My Fitness Pal (great app).  And many restaurants already provide various levels of nutritional information on their menus. 

They should encourage restaurants to do this and maybe even offer a tax incentive, but not by force. 

I agree. They should also take the side effect warnings off of medications, too. Much easier to just look it up on WebMD (great website). 

[Dos Equis]

I agree. They should also take the side effect warnings off of medications, too. Much easier to just look it up on WebMD (great website). 

Yes.  Comparing restaurant food with medications.  Great comparison.   

[OzmO]

The internet.  My Fitness Pal (great app).  And many restaurants already provide various levels of nutritional information on their menus.  

They should encourage restaurants to do this and maybe even offer a tax incentive, but not by force.  

Haven't seen too many restaurants provide nutritional info on the internet.  Even if they are, which i am sure there are some, i don't want to have to look it up and wonder if the info isn't garbage.  Like i am going to go to Amechi's and order a pizza and then have to look up the salt content on the internet on my phone.  fuck that, that's stupid.

Its better if they are mandated to and its verified like labels on food products at the grocery store.

I am totally for this.

I don't trust any business to do the "right" thing through encouragement of voluntary tax incentives.  That's a pipe dream in most cases.

This another example of crabby angry conservatives stuck in the mud on stupid.

[Dos Equis]

Haven't seen too many restaurants provide nutritional info on the internet.  Even if they are, which i am sure there are some, i don't want to have to look it up and wonder if the info isn't garbage.

Its better if they are mandated to and its verified like labels on food products at the grocery store.

I am totally for this.

I don't trust any business to do the "right" thing through encouragement of voluntary tax incentives.  That's a pipe dream in most cases.

I've seen restaurants put varying levels of nutritional information both on their menus and online. 

Have you ever heard of or used My Fitness Pal?  You can find nutritional information, including sodium content, for pretty much everything.  Takes seconds.  I'm sure there are other apps out there can do the same thing.  This isn't rocket science.   

I'd rather put the burden on consumers to take responsibility for their own voluntary decisions to eat out, rather than imposing financial burdens on small businesses. 

[OzmO]

I've seen restaurants put varying levels of nutritional information both on their menus and online. 

Have you ever heard of or used My Fitness Pal?  You can find nutritional information, including sodium content, for pretty much everything.  Takes seconds.  I'm sure there are other apps out there can do the same thing.  This isn't rocket science.   

I'd rather put the burden on consumers to take responsibility for their own voluntary decisions to eat out, rather than imposing financial burdens on small businesses. 

BS.  What financial burden?  Reprint the menus. BFD, they do it all the time.  I don't need to be inconvenienced to look up something on my iphone and waste data.  Also, making it so people have to have a smart phone to find out the nutritional info isn't right.   And who oversees myfitness pal to make sure the info is correct?  F-that.   

Get out of the way of progress, FFS.

[Dos Equis]

BS.  What financial burden?  Reprint the menus. BFD, they do it all the time.  I don't need to be inconvenienced to look up something on my iphone and waste data.  Also, making it so people have to have a smart phone to find out the nutritional info isn't right.   And who oversees myfitness pal to make sure the info is correct?  F-that.  

Get out of the way of progress, FFS.

Yes, small businesses having to create new menus is a financial burden.  A lot of smaller restaurants have trouble breaking even.  It can be a difficult business.  

Who cares about your convenience?  So you're saying you need government intervention in a private business, when you engage in a purely voluntary activity, so you don't have to do the work yourself?  How friggin lazy is that?  Really?  

I don't know who oversees My Fitness Pal or any other app.  I doubt their reliability is any different than the information you're going to trust is accurate coming from the restaurant.  

This isn't progress.  It's catering to a bunch of lazy consumers who don't want to do their own homework.  I log all of my food.  It's really not hard at all.    

[240 is Back]

So only those willing to carry a smart phone and pay for bandwidth deserve that info, because there's an app for that?

Look, if you want to save the country money (as every conservative should), then you want better infrmed consumers who aren't eating 5 grams of sodium a day.  Half the population diabetic by age 40 ain't so good for GDP or healthcare.

but if you have an app, well, hey...

[OzmO]

Yes, small businesses having to create new menus is a financial burden.  A lot of smaller restaurants have trouble breaking even.  It can be a difficult business.  

Who cares about your convenience?  So you're saying you need government intervention in a private business, when you engage in a purely voluntary activity, so you don't have to do the work yourself?  How friggin lazy is that?  Really?  

I don't know who oversees My Fitness Pal or any other app.  I doubt their reliability is any different than the information you're going to trust is accurate coming from the restaurant.  

This isn't progress.  It's catering to a bunch of lazy consumers who don't want to do their own homework.  I log all of my food.  It's really not hard at all.    

They are gonna make new menus anyway.  Adding salt amounts won't change the cost.  So money isn't an issue here.

So what's left is accuracy and you just indicated you don't know if myfitness pal is accurate so that kind of kills that issue.

However, when McDonalds is required to put calorie counts on its menu that info IS checked by the government, prolly the FDA or a state equivalent.  the restaurant  doesn't just put what ever they want as you have suggested they would.

The curmudgeons of the world will just have to get over it like they did with calorie counts, traffic lights, trains and cell phones.

[Dos Equis]

They are gonna make new menus anyway.  Adding salt amounts won't change the cost.  So money isn't an issue here.

So what's left is accuracy and you just indicated you don't know if myfitness pal is accurate so that kind of kills that issue.

However, when McDonalds is required to put calorie counts on its menu that info IS checked by the government, prolly the FDA or a state equivalent.  the restaurant  doesn't just put what ever they want as you have suggested they would.

The curmudgeons of the world will just have to get over it like they did with calorie counts, traffic lights, trains and cell phones.

They are going to make new menus when necessary and when they can afford it, so yes money is an issue if government is requiring all businesses to comply within a certain deadline.

Accuracy isn't killed.  I don't have any reason to doubt the accuracy of the app I use. 

What's next?  You want them to read the menu to you, and feed you too?  Geeze Louise . . . . 

[Al Doggity]

Yes.  Comparing restaurant food with medications.  Great comparison.  

Yeah, food doesn't effect your health. There's no value in knowing the salt, fat and sugar content of food because there are no medically known side effects linked to those things.  

The menu thing is complete BS. A small business can have an employee ink pen in the number, just like they all ink pen in new prices all the time.  


There is no one better at coming up with imaginary arguments for dumb ass positions than you.

[Dos Equis]

Yeah, food doesn't effect your health. There's no value in knowing the salt, fat and sugar content of food because there are no medically know side effects linked to those things.  

The menu thing is complete BS. A small business can have an employee ink pen in the number, just like they all ink pen in new prices all the time.  


There is no one better at coming up with imaginary arguments for dumb ass positions than you.

Yeah, it's impossible to learn what's in the food you eat without a restaurant telling you precisely what the nutritional values are.     And if you are concerned about medical side effects of basic nutritional ingredients, make your own friggin food.  Or do your own homework. 

Comparing this to medicine is a classic example if an imaginary stupid @@@ argument.  Good job. 

[LurkerNoMore]

Yes, small businesses having to create new menus is a financial burden.  A lot of smaller restaurants have trouble breaking even.  It can be a difficult business.  

Who cares about your convenience?  So you're saying you need government intervention in a private business, when you engage in a purely voluntary activity, so you don't have to do the work yourself?  How friggin lazy is that?  Really?  

I don't know who oversees My Fitness Pal or any other app.  I doubt their reliability is any different than the information you're going to trust is accurate coming from the restaurant.  

This isn't progress.  It's catering to a bunch of lazy consumers who don't want to do their own homework.  I log all of my food.  It's really not hard at all.    

Actually it isn't.   Food distributors, just like liquor distributors, often provide their clients with incentives to encourage future orders from them over their competitors.  Gov't regulations forbid liquor and food distributors from giving away free consumable products.  Distributors often find ways to get around it (in theory) by offering savings in other forms.  Walk into a bar and 90% of the accessories there like menus, work shirts, bar mats, right down to the hand soap and toilet paper in the bathrooms are often supplied by liquor vendors as freebies.  Same way with food establishments.  Vendors often design and deliver printed menus from what the restaurant indicates should be on it.  If there is any cost at all, it is for the front and back covers and/or slip casing that the menu goes in. 

I think consumer awareness is a great thing.  Especially when it holds crappy establishments to the health content of what they are serving.

[Dos Equis]

Actually it isn't.   Food distributors, just like liquor distributors, often provide their clients with incentives to encourage future orders from them over their competitors.  Gov't regulations forbid liquor and food distributors from giving away free consumable products.  Distributors often find ways to get around it (in theory) by offering savings in other forms.  Walk into a bar and 90% of the accessories there like menus, work shirts, bar mats, right down to the hand soap and toilet paper in the bathrooms are often supplied by liquor vendors as freebies.  Same way with food establishments.  Vendors often design and deliver printed menus from what the restaurant indicates should be on it.  If there is any cost at all, it is for the front and back covers and/or slip casing that the menu goes in. 

I think consumer awareness is a great thing.  Especially when it holds crappy establishments to the health content of what they are serving.

I'm aware of what vendors do, although I think it's an overstatement to say this how all or even a majority of small restaurants obtain menus. 

I agree consumer awareness is a great thing.  I disagree that government, in this instance, should be forcing businesses to do this.  It's not like we're talking about hidden ingredients, carcinogens, etc.  And this is a purely voluntary activity of eating out.  I really don't see a burden on consumers who should take responsibility for the things they choose to eat at restaurants.   

[OzmO]

They are going to make new menus when necessary and when they can afford it, so yes money is an issue if government is requiring all businesses to comply within a certain deadline.
 

They do when necessary which is common...Not when they "can" afford it.  If they are  having problems affording $100-$400/per loication for new menus because they want to add new dishes or new veggies are in season they are  fucked anyway and going out of business.  Doesn't look like you know much about the restaurant business.  But you seem to think you know enough to make an absurd argument about menu costs lol.

Accuracy isn't killed.  I don't have any reason to doubt the accuracy of the app I use.  

Yet you admit you don't know if it is accurate or if there is any oversight.  How smart is that?   I'd trust a  food label over the "internet" wouldn't you?  Or are you one of those people who believe everything on the internet is true?  I don't doubt that myfitness app is accurate in most cases, but what's to prevent mistakes or collusion?      ............nothing

What's next?  You want them to read the menu to you, and feed you too?  Geeze Louise . . . .

No, what i want them to do is list what's in their food.  Specifically how much calories, sodium, sugar and fat if it exceeds normal levels for the dish or over certain amounts.

Do you have any arguments against it that don't involve a reduction to the ridiculous or a curmudgeon ideal?

[Al Doggity]

Yeah, it's impossible to learn what's in the food you eat without a restaurant telling you precisely what the nutritional values are.    And if you are concerned about medical side effects of basic nutritional ingredients, make your own friggin food.  Or do your own homework.  

Comparing this to medicine is a classic example if an imaginary stupid @@@ argument.  Good job.  

No, its not an imaginary stupid ass argument because requiring restaurants to reveal sodium content is in the interest of customers' health. It's an exact comparison.There is no way menu printing is going to be an issue for any restaurant.  They change menus all the time.  

You ALWAYS make imaginary, stupid ass arguments. Any time you discuss one of these social issues, you add in some imaginary backstory  that has nothing to do with reality.

The simple fact is there is nothing unreasonable about requiring restaurants to include basic nutritional values.

[OzmO]

Reductio ad absurdum
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Reductio ad absurdum (Latin: "reduction to absurdity"; pl.: reductiones ad absurdum), also known as argumentum ad absurdum (Latin: "argument to absurdity", pl.: argumenta ad absurdum), is a common form of argument which seeks to demonstrate that a statement is true by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its denial, or in turn to demonstrate that a statement is false by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its acceptance.[1]

First recognized and studied in classical Greek philosophy (the Latin term derives from the Greek "εις άτοπον απαγωγή" or eis atopon apagoge, "reduction to the impossible", for example in Aristotle's Prior Analytics),[1] this technique has been used throughout history in both formal mathematical and philosophical reasoning, as well as informal debate.

The "absurd" conclusion of a reductio ad absurdum argument can take a range of forms:

The Earth cannot be flat, otherwise we would find people falling off the edge.
Society must have laws, otherwise there would be chaos.
There is no smallest positive rational number, because if there were, then it could be divided by two to get a smaller one.
The first example above argues that the denial of the assertion would have a ridiculous result; it would go against the evidence of our senses. The second argues that denial of the assertion would be untenable: unpleasant or unworkable for society. The third is a mathematical proof by contradiction, arguing that the denial of the premise would result in a logical contradiction (there is a "smallest" number and yet there is a number smaller than it).

[240 is Back]

oz,

you've missed most of an absurd year here.  the insults have stopped since you started posting, thanks for that.

[WOOO]

Nothing.  I have a problem with forcing small businesses to incur the expense of doing this. 

That's a valid point. Makes sense for McDonald's but tough for every mom and pop shop to work out.

I'd also worry about liability. Can you get sued if you're off by a few hundred mg and a client has a heart attack? In New York I'm thinking yes.

[Al Doggity]

That's a valid point.

No, it's not. Only chain restaurants with 15 or more locations have to post the warning.

And the warning only applies to foods with more than 2300 milligrams of sodium per serving.