Author Topic: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?  (Read 102795 times)

Man of Steel

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1025 on: April 13, 2016, 12:17:17 PM »
Man of Steel, I'm sure you've heard, "don't cast your pearls before swine". You're wasting your time with the scoffers.

Yes sir and it's solid guidance.  

Although in this case the pearls aren't directed at the atheists....they're just the only folks asking the questions.  

Most likely there are other readers with similar questions that aren't in constant attack mode as it pertains to theists.  So, I just keep my cool and give answers as I'm able to.  Most of answers as of late amount to "yes it does" when given a reply of "no it doesn't" LOL.

Man of Steel

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1026 on: April 13, 2016, 12:20:41 PM »
gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins

mos by his own standard accepts he is going to hell for eternity

you have to admire him for sticking with it

futile as it is

There aren't "seven deadly sins" in scripture or a list of sins labeled as such.  

The sins are referenced in some form or fashion in scripture, but not as the "seven deadly sins".

The penalty for any sin is eternal separation from God.....all sin is deadly.

You don't understand salvation or the idea that I no longer walk in willful sin....those days are behind me.

bigmc

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1027 on: April 13, 2016, 12:33:27 PM »
There aren't "seven deadly sins" in scripture or a list of sins labeled as such.  

The sins are referenced in some form or fashion in scripture, but not as the "seven deadly sins".

The penalty for any sin is eternal separation from God.....all sin is deadly.

You don't understand salvation or the idea that I no longer walk in willful sin....those days are behind me.


i understand that your are a glutton and that gluttony is a sin

or do you choose not to accept that one as it doesnt fit in with your lifestyle

you have to be all in munchkin

especially if you are going to be so pious and claim we are all damned for eternity

let he who is without sin cast the first stone tubby
T

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1028 on: April 13, 2016, 12:52:24 PM »
MOS you are blatantly cheating when you say "God has never sinned". If we hold him to the same standards it allegedly holds us to then he absolutely is one of the biggest sinners in history. But if you say he is exempt from his own laws of murder, theft, vandalism and destruction because he holds the title god, then "God has never sinned" is meaningless. As you already know because I've already pointed it out, the biblical god committed numerous atrocities in the old testament that would see a human get the death penalty many times over. That you still consider him sinless and righteous is ... well it's just ignorant.   

Man of Steel

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1029 on: April 13, 2016, 12:58:41 PM »
Well, that'd be all nice and dandy, except the Bible itself has been "altered" through the ages, and Christians can't even agree on what it's supposed to say, much less on what it's supposed to mean. Oh, and that's a slight misrepresentation of what Muhammad, supposedly, said and how he intended it to be applied. But let's not worry about such small things ;)


"Offense against God". What does that even mean? How can a non-corporeal, non-human entity be "offended"? More than that, how can I be sure that God has a law and that it's what you claim it to be? Or that he even exists? You can't keep putting the cart before the horse.


It's unsubstantiated, period. That's perfectly fine and nothing (and nobody) is stopping you from believing something that's unsubstantiated, but don't pretend that your belief is based on anything short of "feels". There's no substantive difference between your belief and the belief of a someone who follows, say, Shamanism.

If he desires this, why does he not reveal himself to me? I mean, he had no problem showing his ass to Moses (Exodus 33:23) and I'll just settle for a phonecall! So either he doesn't desire for me to be aligned with him in righteousness or his plan doesn't give him free nights-and-weekends calling.


Not true: if noone makes me sin, then Jesus isn't needed because it would be possible to live a sinless life and achieve my own salvation and that would render your Messiah moot. Indeed, the central tenet of Christianity is that we're born with Original Sin and that we have a sinful nature that we cannot, on our own, escape. In other words, under the Christian ethos, it is impossible for me to not sin and that's the reason why Jesus is necessary: to save us since we can't help but sin by paying the price of sin for us.



One wonders, how I can make a choice when the Bible clearly says that it's all predetermined and God knows the outcome. There is no way to reconcile free will with the Bible.


But it is, at least, possible for us to live without breaking human laws. The same is simply not possible with God's laws, which makes those laws unjust. And unjust laws shouldn't be followed.

Are you an Islamic apologist now?  If you have a refutation why not just discuss it plainly?   Don’t just go to well of “that isn’t what it says” and then leave it at that.
 
I know, critics of scripture often say “it’s been altered”, but technically that’s all they say.  Unless of course they can find Bart Ehrman or Richard Carrier quotes to back their atheist denial.  Do these same critics really understand the scope and instances of said changes like say textual critics of ancient documents such as Dan Wallace, Bruce Metzger or even a theologian like James White?   We have an entire field of textual criticism dedicated to the study of the transmission of data in ancient documentation and thus far the field is in pretty solid agreement that the New Testament is pretty rock solid……98.5% accuracy rating.

You’re speaking to evidence of God.  My testimony is part of that evidence.  I understand it’s meaningless to you, but let’s be frank here…..there aren't any answers you’ll accept other than those you concoct yourself.    Dude, you’re a classic goalpost mover and I’ve played the game of meeting your criteria in all instances and then you suddenly you demand more or different criteria.   This can go on indefinitely.  

There’s no difference between belief in Christianity and belief in Shamanism?   Then you are clearly out of your depth.  It hate to say that so bluntly again, but it’s true.

All other points I’ve discussed at least 4 others times with you at length.  Previous posts are still available and answers are unchanged.

I don’t intend to be rude because I respect you, but repeating the same stuff I’ve answered repeatedly…..you aren’t going to put a stop to it, but I am.  Again, I realize there are not theistic, religious, apologetic answers you'll accept.

Man of Steel

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1030 on: April 13, 2016, 01:00:03 PM »
i understand that your are a glutton and that gluttony is a sin

or do you choose not to accept that one as it doesnt fit in with your lifestyle

you have to be all in munchkin

especially if you are going to be so pious and claim we are all damned for eternity

let he who is without sin cast the first stone tubby

bigmc, you are also clearly out of your depth, but that's ok because you're just playing a game.  And I'm not taking the bait.  I'm not going to get upset...sorry.

Man of Steel

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1031 on: April 13, 2016, 01:02:30 PM »
MOS you are blatantly cheating when you say "God has never sinned". If we hold him to the same standards it allegedly holds us to then he absolutely is one of the biggest sinners in history. But if you say he is exempt from his own laws of murder, theft, vandalism and destruction because he holds the title god, then "God has never sinned" is meaningless. As you already know because I've already pointed it out, the biblical god committed numerous atrocities in the old testament that would see a human get the death penalty many times over. That you still consider him sinless and righteous is ... well it's just ignorant.  

He's the supreme, righteous lawgiver and he punishes those who break his law.  

You don't like that so better to just casually call him evil or a sinner....lump him in with yourself and attempt (at least in your own mind) to wipe away accountability so the sin can keep on keepin on!

bigmc

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1032 on: April 13, 2016, 01:22:17 PM »
bigmc, you are also clearly out of your depth, but that's ok because you're just playing a game.  And I'm not taking the bait.  I'm not going to get upset...sorry.

i am not trying to upset you

i am lowering myself to your level

just because you dress your name calling up in pious nonsense doesnt mean it isnt name calling

and just because i dont write 500 word replies designed to fan my own vanity

in a look at how clever i am way

doesnt make me out my depth

i see very clearly what you are

a stupid man taking comfort in a fairy tale

you are meant to be the man of god yet it is you who will paint the darkest picture of the people that dont agree with you

try sorting your own shit out my friend you are one step away from being a full blown lunatic

it is you who are drowning, it is you who needs to believe the fairy tale to make it through your life

you are weak -  and thats why you throw stones at those of us strong enough to face up to the reality of our existence

go fuck yourself you pious cu nt  :-*
T

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1033 on: April 13, 2016, 01:46:45 PM »
i am not trying to upset you

i am lowering myself to your level

just because you dress your name calling up in pious nonsense doesnt mean it isnt name calling

and just because i dont write 500 word replies designed to fan my own vanity

in a look at how clever i am way

doesnt make me out my depth

i see very clearly what you are

a stupid man taking comfort in a fairy tale

you are meant to be the man of god yet it is you who will paint the darkest picture of the people that dont agree with you

try sorting your own shit out my friend you are one step away from being a full blown lunatic

it is you who are drowning, it is you who needs to believe the fairy tale to make it through your life

you are weak -  and thats why you throw stones at those of us strong enough to face up to the reality of our existence

go fuck yourself you pious cu nt  :-*
Shinto be at peace with yourself and nature. Do not get angry and abusive.

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1034 on: April 13, 2016, 01:54:09 PM »
He's the supreme, righteous lawgiver and he punishes those who break his law.  

You don't like that so better to just casually call him evil or a sinner....lump him in with yourself and attempt (at least in your own mind) to wipe away accountability so the sin can keep on keepin on!



I am fine with breaking laws that make sense and receiving punishment, however, you are ignoring logic completely. God drowned the whole world at one point, animals, plants  even the fucking insects(did they sin?) which is basically him admitting mistake, you are absolving him of all responsibility to his creation, that's bullshit. His creation fucking up is his fault, no one else's any father is beholden to their children if they are worth a grain of salt, god included. What type of relationship is this? one of worship? true love under the guise of eternal torture? listening to your thoughts, watching all your actions, keeping score, only to stop in once every couple thousand years to leave an ambiguous book in a illiterate part of the world, it's impossible for a reasonable person to believe this so, it's the very definition of a dictatorship. a loving relationship goes both ways, you fuck up, your kid may hate you, that option has been taken away, if so, real love is impossible, the choice to not love has consequences, stipulations ie it's conditional.

if he is all loving how could conditions exist on his love? it doesn't make any sense, not only does it not sit well with me intellectually, but in the feels.

I will give it to you, this life seems odd, why exist at all? I often (daily) am in existential thought or crisis, often feeling as if there is a thin veil I can't see past, I see people going to work, worried about day to day life, meanwhile they hurdle towards sudden death, living life as if this is not the case.





Man of Steel

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1035 on: April 13, 2016, 01:54:15 PM »
i am not trying to upset you

i am lowering myself to your level

just because you dress your name calling up in pious nonsense doesnt mean it isnt name calling

and just because i dont write 500 word replies designed to fan my own vanity

in a look at how clever i am way

doesnt make me out my depth

i see very clearly what you are

a stupid man taking comfort in a fairy tale

you are meant to be the man of god yet it is you who will paint the darkest picture of the people that dont agree with you

try sorting your own shit out my friend you are one step away from being a full blown lunatic

it is you who are drowning, it is you who needs to believe the fairy tale to make it through your life

you are weak -  and thats why you throw stones at those of us strong enough to face up to the reality of our existence

go fuck yourself you pious cu nt  :-*

ad hominem, ad hominem, ad homimen.....meh

avxo

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1036 on: April 13, 2016, 02:25:56 PM »
Are you an Islamic apologist now?  If you have a refutation why not just discuss it plainly?   Don’t just go to well of “that isn’t what it says” and then leave it at that.

Hardly - I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy: "my holy book is holy and true and what I believe is the truth! Those other guys... their book nonsense and they're heathens that have been swindled into believing a lie!"
 

I know, critics of scripture often say “it’s been altered”, but technically that’s all they say.  Unless of course they can find Bart Ehrman or Richard Carrier quotes to back their atheist denial.  Do these same critics really understand the scope and instances of said changes like say textual critics of ancient documents such as Dan Wallace, Bruce Metzger or even a theologian like James White?   We have an entire field of textual criticism dedicated to the study of the transmission of data in ancient documentation and thus far the field is in pretty solid agreement that the New Testament is pretty rock solid……98.5% accuracy rating.

98.5% Damn... Let's say that this figure is accurate. You had just told us that the word of god is unalterable. Apparently that's not the case, as it's 1.5% alterable. And it gets worse, because there are serious and well-documented concerns that have been raised about what happened to the text, especially after the LXX translation from Hebrew to Greek, including the rather important decisions about what to include and what to exclude.


You’re speaking to evidence of God.  My testimony is part of that evidence.  I understand it’s meaningless to you, but let’s be frank here…..there aren't any answers you’ll accept other than those you concoct yourself.    Dude, you’re a classic goalpost mover and I’ve played the game of meeting your criteria in all instances and then you suddenly you demand more or different criteria.   This can go on indefinitely.

Your testimony isn't evidence, but even if I were to treat it as such, it doesn't help. You can't even clearly and unambigiously define what God is, much less offer evidence that he exists. I understand that you believe and I grant that your belief is legitimate, but what good does that do me? As I said, plenty of other people have simlar testimony about other religions and deities. Why is yours better?

You say I'm moving the goalposts; I'm not. God revealed himself to Moses, did he not? I'm asking for less than that... heck, I'll settle for a guest appearance on a chalupa!

More than that, I want to again point out a fundamental internal inconsistency in Christianity: the point around which Christianity revolves is that God loves us so much that he sent his son to die and pay for our sins so that he may forgive us and let live. But that's only if we believe in him.

From where I stand, if God loved us as much as he alleges, he'd be singing a different tune. One that goes like this: "I am the God of the Bible, the God that loves you so much that despite being unworthy, I will save you and grant you eternal life, no questions asked, regardless of what you choose to do."

Instead what your God says is: "You are, by nature, unworthy of me and nothing you do can change that. And so you must be punished and the punishment is death. Unless... you do a little something for me. Now, prostrate yourself before me, beg me to save you. Admit your own unworthiness. Praise me for being merciful. And then after you die, I'll make you live again so that you may worship me for all eternity."

To which I reply: "No thanks..."

You want to know true love? It's the kind you have for your kids - the kind that would make you jump in front of a moving vehicle to save their life even at the cost of your own without a moment's hesitation. Compared to that, the other love - the "believe in me or else" kind - which is what your Savior offers sounds more like a nightmare.


There’s no difference between belief in Christianity and belief in Shamanism?   Then you are clearly out of your depth.  It hate to say that so bluntly again, but it’s true.

Please explain the difference to me without resorting to "well, Christianity is true and Shamanism is bullshit."


I don’t intend to be rude because I respect you, but repeating the same stuff I’ve answered repeatedly…..you aren’t going to put a stop to it, but I am.  Again, I realize there are not theistic, religious, apologetic answers you'll accept.

I don't intend to be rude either. I get that we've danced this dance before, and that you don't feel like dancing anymore. Pity because I genuinely find the conversation interesting.

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1037 on: April 13, 2016, 03:51:50 PM »
MOS,

I have particularly enjoyed watching you avoid questions from myself and Bigmc. Questions which cut to the very core of your ludicrous arguments. I expect similar deflections in your response (if any) to this question:

If i told you that i believed that Ronald Dean Coleman was 100% natural at the "O" in 2000, and that the Weiders had confirmed this as being true (and they subsequently published it in scripture). Could it be false?

bigmc

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1038 on: April 13, 2016, 09:29:25 PM »
From where I stand, if God loved us as much as he alleges, he'd be singing a different tune. One that goes like this: "I am the God of the Bible, the God that loves you so much that despite being unworthy, I will save you and grant you eternal life, no questions asked, regardless of what you choose to do."

Instead what your God says is: "You are, by nature, unworthy of me and nothing you do can change that. And so you must be punished and the punishment is death. Unless... you do a little something for me. Now, prostrate yourself before me, beg me to save you. Admit your own unworthiness. Praise me for being merciful. And then after you die, I'll make you live again so that you may worship me for all eternity."

To which I reply: "No thanks..."

You want to know true love? It's the kind you have for your kids - the kind that would make you jump in front of a moving vehicle to save their life even at the cost of your own without a moment's hesitation. Compared to that, the other love - the "believe in me or else" kind - which is what your Savior offers sounds more like a nightmare.


this sums the whole argument up perfectly

truth!!
T

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1039 on: April 13, 2016, 09:43:54 PM »
I don't get arguments for or against a creator.

That exist outside of time and space and is hence impossible for us to argue for or against.

I mean that's by DEFINITION!

The fact that you all want to win an argument about it is pathetic.

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1040 on: April 14, 2016, 01:42:17 AM »
I don't get arguments for or against a creator.

That exist outside of time and space and is hence impossible for us to argue for or against.

I mean that's by DEFINITION!

The fact that you all want to win an argument about it is pathetic.

i'm more interested in the truth than winning any argument.
God may exist out of time and space but his actions here on planet earth can be analysed. His earthly rules can be analysed, his earthly behaviour can be analysed.

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1041 on: April 14, 2016, 05:02:07 AM »
I don't get arguments for or against a creator.

That exist outside of time and space and is hence impossible for us to argue for or against.

I mean that's by DEFINITION!

The fact that you all want to win an argument about it is pathetic.

There is no winning, just hashing out reason and in essence philosophy. The particular arguments now are about the bible not the creator really, which is possible to argue against.


Yamcha

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1042 on: April 14, 2016, 05:15:54 AM »
a

Man of Steel

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1043 on: April 14, 2016, 08:41:51 AM »
MOS,

I have particularly enjoyed watching you avoid questions from myself and Bigmc. Questions which cut to the very core of your ludicrous arguments. I expect similar deflections in your response (if any) to this question:

If i told you that i believed that Ronald Dean Coleman was 100% natural at the "O" in 2000, and that the Weiders had confirmed this as being true (and they subsequently published it in scripture). Could it be false?

Please, list your questions and I will give answers where I am able to.

You want to know if Ronnie Coleman's natural claims were confirmed as true and then subsequently published (or that claim added) in scripture could it be false?  

Yes.  All sorts of uninspired words have been written and attempted to made part of the canon of scripture.

Follow up questions:  

Why would Ronnie Coleman's natural claims be included in scripture?  
So if it was confirmed as true what is the issue with the claim?  
Are you wanting to falsify the claim in some way?  
Do you want to find a means to deny the confirmation?  
Is it because the claim itself is too fantastic for you to do on your own so you can't reason or accept it?  

Again, please provide your questions or bigmc's questions that were unanswered.  Remember, there's one of me typically responding to 5-8 of y'all.

Atheists for years tell me "it's fun watching you avoid my questions"....par for the course prodding.  I don't avoid anything, but I might miss stuff sure.  So, then I just answer the questions when they are presented again.  Sometimes someone asks the same question so I only respond to one of the questions. 

bigmc

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1044 on: April 14, 2016, 10:55:47 AM »
is this the word of god  ???

Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. Leviticus 19:19
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads. Leviticus 19:27
When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand. Deuteronomy 25:11-12
Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 2 Kings 2:23-25 NIV

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18

You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT


do you believe all the above are the words of god written through man  ???
T

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1045 on: April 14, 2016, 11:04:39 AM »
is this the word of god  ???

Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. Leviticus 19:19
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads. Leviticus 19:27
When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand. Deuteronomy 25:11-12
Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 2 Kings 2:23-25 NIV

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18

You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT


do you believe all the above are the words of god written through man  ???

Yes.

Levitical Laws for Israelites:


You're referencing old covenant, levitical laws for the Israelites...fabric mixing, eating of clean animals, hygiene practices, animal sacrifice for sin atonement, tithing practices, etc....not applicable today.

The early Israelites were called by God to be holy or “set apart” from the pagan nations around them and they adhered to law and practices that made that distinction more evident.   Their existence was such that everything done was in order to be holy and pure representatives of God.  

 Folks often say, “why is it a sin to eat lobster?”   It’s not that the lobster is bad or unclean in and of itself, but the Israelites were set apart and did not blur the lines in all aspects of their lives.   They ate fish because fish were animals meant only for water and  did not have mixed physical characteristics like shellfish/lobsters do.  Lobsters can survive in and out of water and have a mix of features designed for land and water so they were temporarily deemed “unclean” for purposes of maintaining the idea of distinction while the nation of Israel developed.  Man then began to include other cultural concepts that indicated distinctiveness such as cultural practices for hair and head coverings, but as Paul mentions in these passages of scripture we are to “judge for ourselves” the appropriateness of these customs.  

Hand cut off:

In the ancient near east or ancient Israelite culture the notion of lineage was vitally important.  Especially given their covenantal status with the Almighty and his promise to increase their numbers and prosper them it was important that sex organs not be injured otherwise a line of lineage could forever be broken.  Indicates the severity of committing such an act by God.  You potentially end a familial line and your hand was forfeit because of it.  Also grabbing a man’s genitals in public (especially one that wasn’t your husband) was considered to be a very lewd act.

Elisha:

Elisha and the little children that were destroyed by bears for simply teasing Elisha.   The “little children” of this passage are also translated as “youths”, “young men” and “young lads”.

This was a gang of 42 youths anywhere from ages 12-20 (based on previous readings I’ve done) that exclaimed “go up Baldy!” to Elisha.   Elisha’s predecessor Elijah had just “gone up” via the flaming chariot and they wanted Elisha “gone up” too (which from my previous reading can indicate wanting him “cast out” or “to die”).   This gang was organized with bad intentions  and their exclamation although seemingly harmless in our culture today meant something more threatening then...it was a sign of hatred.

The KJV translation states “little children” or "boys" to which readers today immediately associate with a “happy daycare class of 42 5-year olds playfully teasing Elisha calling him ‘baldy’ .  Then wicked ole Elisha cursed the blessed little ones and they were destroyed by bears.”   The bears were sent to protect God’s messenger from impending harm by a organized gang of youths set on bad intentions.

Midianites:


These pagan groups such as the Amalakites, Midianites, Moabites and Caananites had hundreds of years to repent and turn to God, but they persisted in their evil ways and ignored God.  Sure today we have small sects of folks that may inflict harm upon a mass population (the Nazis for example), but we're talking about a massive population dedicated to evil and perverse, pagan rituals....different circumstances.  We can look at the Chinese today and say the majority of this nation can't stand Christianity, but the Chinese are nothing like the Amalakites or the Midianites.  They aren't engaging in the deviant perversions and human sacrifice like the pagan populations of the OT.  

In fact, the Midianites not only turned from God, but during their time of denial they chose to repeatedly attack, brutalize and kill Israelite people….men, women, children and babies.  The Midianites were also aligned with the Moabites and these pagan nations all typically worshipped pagan gods such as Baal and Molech.  Pagan worship was anything but smiles, puppies and candy bars.  It was live infant sacrifice via burning to death on white hot altars to Molech.  It was self-mutilation within ceremonies of sexual perversion and the whoring of young women in demonic rituals to Baal.  It was demonic rituals of witchcraft/sorcery and further ritualistic sexual perversion and whoring of women to the pagan goddess Asherah.  It was carnal, it was dark, it was twisted, it was evil, it was demonic and it destroyed countless innocents.  This was allowed to transpire for a time and then God pronounced judgment upon the Midianities.

God stepped in and allowed these pagan peoples to be destroyed and in turn brought the population of male children into eternity with him.  Generation after generation after generation weren’t allowed to continue to pervert the younger generation before them and turn them from God which condemned them to an eternity without God when they died.    God did show grace to the young, virginal women of Midian and allowed the Israelite men to take them as wives and bring them into the Israelite culture and covenant.  The implication though is the Midianite women were raped and abused and tortured….absolutely false.

Slavery:

The rules for slavery regarding Israel in the OT had nothing to do with the antebellum South or the slavery they were delivered from in Egypt.  Two entirely different things....one was forced (ex: antebellum South and Israelites in Egypt) and the other was voluntary/customary for debt payment (ex: Israelites post-Egypt freedom).  One was about inhumanity (ex: antebellum South and Israelites in Egypt) and one was about the preservation of humanity and rights of the servant/slave while working off individual or family debt (ex: Israel post-Egypt freedom).  The word "slave" is always incorrecty associated with the antebellum South...just not the case for OT Israel. 

Many slaves/bond servants ended up staying with the very owner/family they worked for after their debts were satisfied because they chose to.  Many became full-time hands on the owners land receiving a normal wage.  These folks weren't "picking the cotton on Massah's plantation" and then being beaten and/or raped in the evenings.....no, no, no.

I know many have serious issues with slavery in the bible, but the "issue of slavery" doesn't carry the negative connotation often force fit onto it because of the words “slave” or ”slavery”.  It’s the culture and history of the Israelites who were delivered from the forced, "work til you die" slavery in Egypt that needs to be understood.   If the Israelite that held the debt did something to mistreat the bondservant working off the debt the holder of debt was punished.  God that freed the Israelites didn't turn around and say, "Ok, now y'all go ahead and enslave and mistreat others in the same manner you were just freed from". 
 
Yes, I find it morally correct that the rights of a bondservant working off an individual or family debt were upheld.   That’s the progressive nature of the law that protected the bondservant (“ebed” in Hebrew) within Israel that was found nowhere else in the pagan nations of the ancient near east.  

I absolutely know the perception is that these folks were kept in shackles, practically starved, beaten, maimed, raped and treated like human garbage based on the whims of the debt holder.   Just not the case (this was not ancient Egypt or the antebellum south in US).   Simple comparisons with other ancient near east cultures will show you that the slave (not the bondservant) was treated like human garbage in those cases.   The practices utilized with bond servants in ancient Israel were leaps and bounds above the slavery of surrounding pagan nations (these were the “work you to death, starve, maim, rape and beat you” cultures).  The reality is that there was virtually no comparison between the treatment of bondservants in ancient Israel versus the treatment of slaves in the surrounding pagan cultures.
 
The Israelites that had acquired debt (ex: through failed business, theft, failed crops, etc…) and were unable to repay entered into a contract with the debt holder to work off the debt.  As was customary in ancient Israel, sometimes individuals, individual and a family member or entire families worked off the debt.  If the debt was satisfied prior to 6 years of service then that was it….the bondservant was released.  If 6 years of service came and went and the debt was not repaid in full the debt holder simply lost out and the bond servant was to be released regardless.  Often times the released bondservant(s) was to be given compensation, life stock, grains, wine, etc…..upon their release.  Sometimes the bondservants became full employees after the debt was settled and began earning a wage (if they chose to stay on board).  Sometimes bondservants chose to stay with the family they worked off debt for and continue the bond servitude after the debt was satisfied because they developed such a strong relationship with the family they owed a debt to.  Sometimes females bondservants became spouses of the owners or the owner's children (marriages were arranged) and as was customary the owner would pay out a bride price to the bondservants family.   Within the year of jubilee many, many bondservants were released from their service regardless of time served or amount of debt repaid.

And yes sometimes the bondservants' performance or behavior was inappropriate and they were punished for it.   Although, the laws for bondservants didn't condone the capricious beating of the bondservant, the laws were meant to discourage that behavior on behalf of the owner.  If owner did something as vile as murder a bondservant then that owner lost their life.   Everyone quotes the scripture “if the owner beats the slave and slave recovers after 3 days……then all is good”.   This circumstance was simply an exception, not the norm, but the laws were meant to govern all circumstances both the good and the bad.  If the bondservant was beaten to a point in which they could not work they were supposed to be freed.  The debt holder/owner was engaged in a contract with the bondservant and that bondservant was deemed property, but human property for the purposes of sweat equity for debt repayment that retained rights and privileges and just treatment.  The owner was outlawed from ruling over the bondservant like a tyrant….that was not permitted.  Did they work some of these folks hard?  Sure.   Was that hard work intended to be cruel and brutal and relentless and unreasonable?  LOL no….that’s a fiction inferred by ignorant readers.

God’s ultimate goal was to lead Israel away from the practice of using bondservants altogether.  The Lord works within the confines of our lives drawing us closer to him and away from the adopted practices of our hardened hearts that we freely choose to engage in.  Regardless, the Lord is patient and will allow our free choices and some our less than desirable customs to be honored with the intention of leading us away from those practices.   The use of bondservants is not the preference of the Lord though.  Bondservants were also meant to respect their owners.  Remember, some of the bondservants were working off a debt based a crime they committed against the family that held their contract for debt repayment.  As I’ve said time and again on this topic it is completely illogical that God would free the Israelites from the brutal, forced slavery in Egypt and then allow them to engage in that same behavior among the people of their own nation.    Folks will simply say “well, that’s a biblical contradiction” LOL……sorry, no.  That’s ignorance on part of the critic that has done little more than a surface reading of the scripture.  When I first read the these scriptures I was SHOCKED, but then I dug in deeper and understood the culture of the Israelites, the culture of the pagan nations, learned some of the Hebrew terms and the definitely gained insight on the context…..makes all the difference.

bigmc

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1046 on: April 14, 2016, 11:53:38 AM »
and you are on board with that

im of to buy some slaves etc

 8)
T

Man of Steel

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1047 on: April 14, 2016, 11:58:01 AM »
and you are on board with that

im of to buy some slaves etc

 8)

This is exactly why I keep answers brief now because when I give thorough explanations they aren't read.

I had every answer at the ready and I copied and pasted from my previous writings to prove a point.

You aren't interested in the answers....just the objection itself.

Yet, someone like 10pints will say I'm avoiding answering your questions or his questions.  


Raymondo

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1048 on: April 14, 2016, 12:24:55 PM »
The elaborate post on slavery is a straw man. It assumes debt bondage whereas the passages quoted clearly refer to the purchase of slaves, presumably for no other reason than working them.

Is there a passage in the Bible that constraints slavery within the boundaries given in your post? How do you know the Israelites only enslaved people due to debt?

Also, there are no references in your post, is this research you have conducted yourself, if so, when/how?

Man of Steel

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Re: So why doesnt God appear every now and again?
« Reply #1049 on: April 14, 2016, 12:31:50 PM »
The elaborate post on slavery is a straw man. It assumes debt bondage whereas the passages quoted clearly refer to the purchase of slaves, presumably for no other reason than working them.

Is there a passage in the Bible that constraints slavery within the boundaries given in your post? How do you know the Israelites only enslaved people due to debt?

Also, there are no references in your post, is this research you have conducted yourself, if so, when/how?

You can label it whatever you want.

There are no references in any of my posts....years and years of reading, watching lectures, reading, watching debates, listening to sermons, etc...written over the years and slowly compiled by me.

You could read "Is God a Moral Monster" by Paul Copan for starters.

However acquired, Israelite "slaves" weren't treated like the slaves of their ancient near east counterparts or in the antebellum South.