Author Topic: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure  (Read 27758 times)

drkaje

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #100 on: March 28, 2016, 05:04:20 PM »
1. DrKaje, do you believe that more good would be done if more people donated kidneys for free? If so, why? If not, why not?

2. And also please answer my original blanket question about what you would do if one of children needed a kidney? Would you pay for it if that was the only way to get on in time?

3. I am always up for a honest and open debate and address all the questions directed at me. Unless you have an agenda and not interested in trying to determine what's best by considering different view points, please show me equal consideration and answer my questions open and honestly.

1. It should only be legal to sell organs under these conditions:
       Surgery and aftercare for donors is performed in the US, UK, or place with the same level of aftercare.
       Payment to donor is half the net worth of whoever pays.

2. No. Not if it meant killing someone else.

3. An answer or opinion you dislike doesn't mean the person has an agenda, is deflecting, or dishonest. I have an educated opinion on the topic (in regards to outcomes) and fundamentally disagree that a rich person's live has more value than someone who is poor.

In terms of kidneys freely donated: We already have that. The issue people take exception to is that the rich aren't entitled to skip others on the waiting list.

The Ugly

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #101 on: March 28, 2016, 05:09:29 PM »
How on earth is this ridiculous "sport" still a thing? Fucking death cult.

drkaje

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #102 on: March 28, 2016, 05:23:56 PM »
How on earth is this ridiculous "sport" still a thing? Fucking death cult.

There's probably some "My kidneys, my choice" movement. :)

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #103 on: March 28, 2016, 05:30:35 PM »
There's probably some "My kidneys, my choice" movement. :)

Only five U.S. states have legalized assisted suicide, but all fifty allow this shit.

pellius

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #104 on: March 28, 2016, 05:42:31 PM »
1. It should only be legal to sell organs under these conditions:
       Surgery and aftercare for donors is performed in the US, UK, or place with the same level of aftercare.
       Payment to donor is half the net worth of whoever pays.

2. No. Not if it meant killing someone else.

3. An answer or opinion you dislike doesn't mean the person has an agenda, is deflecting, or dishonest. I have an educated opinion on the topic (in regards to outcomes) and fundamentally disagree that a rich person's live has more value than someone who is poor.

In terms of kidneys freely donated: We already have that. The issue people take exception to is that the rich aren't entitled to skip others on the waiting list.


Let me address your third point first.

What are you talking about? My issue was that you were not answering my question. How can I dislike your answer when I got none? You were just giving me your point of view. That is an indication that you are not interested in an honest debate.

Now back to your first point. That doesn't answer what seemed to me a very simply question. Do you believe that it would be a good thing if MORE people donated kidneys to those that need them. If not, why not. If yes, why? Your answer, though off the point indicated to me that you do in fact support the selling of kidneys as long as adequate care is provided which I agree and taken as a given and also as long as you get to dictate the price.

So the issue is not the selling of kidneys but just how much one can sell it for. It's either free or half the net worth of the buyer.

Now for your second point: Again I ask you a simple straight forward question but instead of a straight forward answer you add in "not if it meant killing someone else." Why did you add that in? I didn't ask if you would buy a kidney from someone if it meant killing that person. That changes the context completely. I asked if you would buy a kidney to save a loved one. No one dies. Just answer a straight question with a straight answer. That's what I mean when I say I suspect someone has an agenda. They aren't open and honest and always try to obfuscate the issue. "if it meant killing someone else." Jeeze.  ::) You rewrite a simple question that changes the contest entirely to avoid answering the original straight forward question. Reeks of promoting your agenda and point of view than an honest and open debate.

And again, the rich always have more opportunities and options than those that are not rich. How do we make things better by limiting the options of the rich? So people without options don't get a kidney and people with options don't get a kidney. People without options don't get world class medical care and people with options don't get world class medical care.  How is that better? Because we can't save everyone we should save no one. Rich people can't live in mansions as long as there are poor people living in card board boxes? It's like what Churchill said about Socialism versus Capitalism. What would you rather have: an equal sharing of misery or an unequal sharing of blessings? Everybody suffers or some do and some don't suffer. Are you willing to give up your blessed and privilege life you got just by being born here. A blessing you did nothing to earn or deserved. Or do you want to join the ranks of the destitute and give up what you have in the name of cosmic justice?

In this brutal, cruel and unjust world; the choice is rarely between good and bad but between bad and worse.

pellius

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #105 on: March 28, 2016, 05:43:52 PM »
How on earth is this ridiculous "sport" still a thing? Fucking death cult.

Because we, all of us here, watch and follow it.

drkaje

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #106 on: March 28, 2016, 05:53:07 PM »
Let me address your third point first.

What are you talking about? My issue was that you were not answering my question. How can I dislike your answer when I got none? You were just giving me your point of view. That is an indication that you are not interested in an honest debate.

Now back to your first point. That doesn't answer what seemed to me a very simply question. Do you believe that it would be a good thing if MORE people donated kidneys to those that need them. If not, why not. If yes, why? Your answer, though off the point indicated to me that you do in fact support the selling of kidneys as long as adequate care is provided which I agree and taken as a given and also as long as you get to dictate the price.

So the issue is not the selling of kidneys but just how much one can sell it for. It's either free or half the net worth of the buyer.

Now for your second point: Again I ask you a simple straight forward question but instead of a straight forward answer you add in "not if it meant killing someone else." Why did you add that in? I didn't ask if you would buy a kidney from someone if it meant killing that person. That changes the context completely. I asked if you would buy a kidney to save a loved one. No one dies. Just answer a straight question with a straight answer. That's what I mean when I say I suspect someone has an agenda. They aren't open and honest and always try to obfuscate the issue. "if it meant killing someone else." Jeeze.  ::) You rewrite a simple question that changes the contest entirely to avoid answering the original straight forward question. Reeks of promoting your agenda and point of view than an honest and open debate.

And again, the rich always have more opportunities and options than those that are not rich. How do we make things better by limiting the options of the rich? So people without options don't get a kidney and people with options don't get a kidney. People without options don't get world class medical care and people with options don't get world class medical care.  How is that better? Because we can't save everyone we should save no one. Rich people can't live in mansions as long as there are poor people living in card board boxes? It's like what Churchill said about Socialism versus Capitalism. What would you rather have: an equal sharing of misery or an unequal sharing of blessings? Everybody suffers or some do and some don't suffer. Are you willing to give up your blessed and privilege life you got just by being born here. A blessing you did nothing to earn or deserved. Or do you want to join the ranks of the destitute and give up what you have in the name of cosmic justice?

In this brutal, cruel and unjust world; the choice is rarely between good and bad but between bad and worse.

Perhaps my answer was too simple. 88% of people in those third world countries have serious complication. Their outcomes and life expectancies can't be legitimately compared to US donors. You seem to be under the impression that people sell a kidney in those countries get all the money and have great lives. Most of the money goes to aftercare and they end up fucked even worse. In fact, it's not uncommon for the spouse to sell a kidney for the first donor's medical expenses. It's not something I'd want to participate in.

My conditions don't limit options of the rich.

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #107 on: March 28, 2016, 05:58:19 PM »
Because we, all of us here, watch and follow it.

All us?

el numero uno

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #108 on: March 28, 2016, 06:11:00 PM »
Pellius, would you sell YOUR kidney?

drkaje

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #109 on: March 28, 2016, 06:13:01 PM »
Pellius, would you sell YOUR kidney?

He's well-off and in a first world country. His life is worth more than theirs. :)

pellius

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #110 on: March 28, 2016, 06:15:13 PM »
Perhaps my answer was too simple. 88% of people in those third world countries have serious complication. Their outcomes and life expectancies can't be legitimately compared to US donors. You seem to be under the impression that people sell a kidney in those countries get all the money and have great lives. Most of the money goes to aftercare and they end up fucked even worse. In fact, it's not uncommon for the spouse to sell a kidney for the first donor's medical expenses. It's not something I'd want to participate in.

My conditions don't limit options of the rich.

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! Where on God's green earth did you get the impression that I believe that people who sell kidneys and get all the money live great lives. It's just the fucking opposite! First they don't get all the money. My whole premise is that because it's a black market they are exploited. I stated that repeatedly in this thread. Repeatedly. Allowing free, open, legal transactions that are monitored and regulated like all legal transactions is the very reason I support legalization. It is to protect the disadvantage that have no one protecting them from  exploitation. I want all donors to be treated by first world countries. And they would if it was legal to sell kidneys. They do it anyway whether or not it's done in the third world. I want it ALL done outside of those corrupt shit holes

And you, yourself said, "The issue people take exception to is that the rich aren't entitled to skip others on the waiting list." First of all I don't think that all or even most people take exception to that. That implies that you don't want to have rich people having better options and opportunities than others. Sure, I don't like it. I wish I could buy a Lambo and move to the head of the line and get the best table at a fancy restaurant. But that's just the way of the world. In regard to kidneys if you are on the waiting list that means you can't afford to buy a kidney. If you're rich you can. There's nothing you can do about it but try to become rich. You live a better life when you have lots of money. If you get shot you go to the nearest emergency room and get treated by whomever is available. If you're President Reagan you get a much different reception. We are not all treated equal in this world.

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #111 on: March 28, 2016, 06:16:38 PM »

pellius

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #112 on: March 28, 2016, 06:17:30 PM »
All us?

You don't follow bodybuilding? You don't know who Phil Heath, Kai Greene or Dexter Jackson are? People that the average person have no clue of.

el numero uno

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #113 on: March 28, 2016, 06:20:18 PM »
The power imbalance between someone with $50K (or more) needing a kidney and some schlub in Bangladesh is too great.

If it's morally fine, allow selling organs here and see how many poor people who sell their kidneys end up on lifetime dialysis or dead.

You are right

Third world devalued currencies would allow people from wealthy countries to allure poor families into organ trade.

e.g., the miminum wage in Peru is 750 PEN (222 american dollars a month).

USD 50,000 represent 20 years of minimun wage for a peruvian guy.

Jobless, uneducated people would fall for it.


PD: selling organs is illegal in every south-american country.


PD: Pellius is fvcking stupid

Free market  ::)

drkaje

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #114 on: March 28, 2016, 06:21:57 PM »
Pellius,

People would be shocked and roll out the read carpet anyplace Ronald Reagan showed up, LOL!

pellius

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #115 on: March 28, 2016, 06:25:14 PM »
Pellius, would you sell YOUR kidney?

In my present circumstances I have no need to, so no, I wouldn't. But if I am ever in a desperate circumstances where I needed to come up with money fast that I don't have. Say my niece had cancer or my brother was being held in some Mexican cartel under threat of being beheaded  then I would like to have that option available.

And, of course I would donate my kidney for free to save the life of a loved one. And if that loved one bought me a new car as a from of gratitude I would not refuse it -- but it would not be a condition for my donation. In fact, being that I would willingly give my life to save any one of my family just donating a kidney I believe would put me ahead of the game.

pellius

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #116 on: March 28, 2016, 06:33:11 PM »
He's well-off and in a first world country. His life is worth more than theirs. :)


Well, despite the pious platitudes and bromides, some lives are worth more than others in this world. If one Jihadi had a gun to my head and another Jihadi had a gun to Obama's head both about to pull the trigger and there was a military sniper would just one bullet which Jihadi do you think he'll shoot?

If Charles Manson and Drkaje were both drowning I would save Drkaje. I would ignore Manson.

Well, maybe I'll give Manson a poke in the eye.

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #117 on: March 28, 2016, 06:36:49 PM »
Did Beau even ever compete after winning his pro card?  I remember him being big back in college in the early 90's. 

pellius

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #118 on: March 28, 2016, 06:38:06 PM »
You are right

Third world devalued currencies would allow people from wealthy countries to allure poor families into organ trade.

e.g., the miminum wage in Peru is 750 PEN (222 american dollars a month).

USD 50,000 represent 20 years of minimun wage for a peruvian guy.

Jobless, uneducated people would fall for it.


PD: selling organs is illegal in every south-american country.


PD: Pellius is fvcking stupid

Free market  ::)

So are you saying that it's better for a poor person to get pennies for selling their kidneys to corrupt harvesters than to get a qualified and registered physician perform the procedure and the donor get 50 grand American dollars?

If you could save the life of a loved one by buying a kidney would you do it or would you let your love one die?

The Ugly

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #119 on: March 28, 2016, 06:39:15 PM »
You don't follow bodybuilding?

No, but only 'cause it's fucking stupid.

pellius

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #120 on: March 28, 2016, 06:47:20 PM »
No, but only 'cause it's fucking stupid.

So you haven't heard of Danny Padilla, Ken Waller, Samir Bannout?

You don't know who won the Mr. Olympia in 1980?

This is pretty obscure knowledge.

Only people who don't follow bodybuilding or have over 19,000 posts on a bodybuilding board would say they don't know this.

Nether Animal

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #121 on: March 28, 2016, 06:49:25 PM »
You sure do enjoy petty arguments, pellius.

el numero uno

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #122 on: March 28, 2016, 06:51:14 PM »
So are you saying that it's better for a poor person to get pennies for selling their kidneys to corrupt harvesters than to get a qualified and registered physician perform the procedure and the donor get 50 grand American dollars?

Corrupt harvester?

You think it's like the movies where you just call a couple guys from the black market and they get you a kidney ASAP? ???

It doesn't work that way. Those rumors are bull$hit. You just can't go around stealing kidneys like they were cellphones.  ::)


If you could save the life of a loved one by buying a kidney would you do it or would you let your love one die?

I don't have the right to destroy someone else's life in order to save someone I love. I'd donate mine to my brother and that's it. My parents are old, they wouldn't let me do it for them.


pellius

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #123 on: March 28, 2016, 07:03:40 PM »
You sure do enjoy petty arguments, pellius.

As of today there are 74,000 Americans are awaiting a kidney transplant while enduring painful, exhausting and expensive hours hooked up to dialysis machines. Every day, about 17 Americans die while waiting for a transplant.

You consider that petty?

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Re: IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure
« Reply #124 on: March 28, 2016, 07:10:59 PM »
As of today there are 74,000 Americans are awaiting a kidney transplant while enduring painful, exhausting and expensive hours hooked up to dialysis machines. Every day, about 17 Americans die while waiting for a transplant.

You consider that petty?

Arguing on here isn't going to fix that and you know it. Don't strawman now, mate.

It was nothing more than a keen observation I made.