Mike Mentzer - Discussion

[DarthSidious]

The ever honorable Pellius is correct . All that shit about Casey sneaking in extra workouts was a rumor, nothing more.  While I'm certain Jones was wrong on the "no steroids!" count, drugs could not have played THAT big of a role in his quick progress; even if he was taking grams per week from the start, the stuff wouldn't blow him up like that in the first week or so, and that was when he gained at the quickest rate.

No... The Colorado Experiment is testament to a HUGE rebound by so-called muscle memory, facilitated by tons of food and hitting each bodypart hard with a high frequency.  Quite simple, really.

[DarthSidious]

mentzer trained like everyone else did to get his size. maintaining it he did heavy duty but not one set per bodypart. he pyramided up like everyone else but only counted the last set as the only set.

Partially correct, my good man.  

But not quite

Mentzer built his base working with two of his dad's buddies, a pair of powerlifters, when he started training in their garage gym.  He was only 12 at the outset, iirc.  

Anyhow -- and as related by Mike personally to my ears -- he and his two mentors lifted no more than four times a week, and usually three.  They most certainly did NOT do volume training.  Mike said they were interested in getting stronger and little else which, to them, required they maybe do a handful of hard sets per muscle group, usually centered around the big three.  By the time Mike was 15, he could flat bench 350 and "squat 500 for a few reps," or so he said.  (Yes, Fortress, I'm sure you'll dispute that . Fwiw, I agree his reps probably didn't reach depth ... then again, so fucking what?  He was a drug-free teenager training in an early powerlifting style regimen.)

Point being, NO, he didn't "build his base with volume" and/or only "maintain" that with his brand of HIT.  He DID go off the deep end late in life, but it's frankly stupid to submit to some lame dichotomy that holds Mentzer's input to either this OR that extreme :/

  he found a niche that people would believe and buy into it. what the mags said was bull but kinda true too. saying arnold did 2 hours or more each day for 6 days etc was kinda true but ONLY before contest time. rest of the time was 45 min to and hour 3-4 days a week. same as everyone did from my time. mentzers system sounds good on paper and DOES  work a little bit as will any new training system. but you get used to it and with his ( as he wanted people to do it) you burned out way to quickly. good for an occasional workout when time is limited. yes he had great genetics. yes he used alot of drugs yes he used street drugs and smoked. everyone back then had mail order courses and t shirts to make money. mentzer had a great idea and no one else was selling it. case closed.

Again, yes and no.

If Mike developed Heavy Duty and ultra-infrequent training as a pure marketing gimmick to get more clients, wouldn't he be better served by sticking to his recommendations circa the original Heavy Duty concepts?  At the very least, why not hang by what he advocated in his '92 edition of HD?  Higher frequency multiplied by more clients = more more money, yes?

Mentzer truly *believed* he'd found the best way to train.  No question.  I'm just sorry that, in the end, his logic was severely flawed -- and his one workout every blue moon, totally wrong.

[Simple Simon]

The ever honorable Pellius is correct . All that shit about Casey sneaking in extra workouts was a rumor, nothing more.  While I'm certain Jones was wrong on the "no steroids!" count, drugs could not have played THAT big of a role in his quick progress; even if he was taking grams per week from the start, the stuff wouldn't blow him up like that in the first week or so, and that was when he gained at the quickest rate.

No... The Colorado Experiment is testament to a HUGE rebound by so-called muscle memory, facilitated by tons of food and hitting each bodypart hard with a high frequency.  Quite simple, really.

second post in and talking about people like old friends, who were you before?
I hope it isnt "the Trainer", you do have a ring of him.

[DarthSidious]

second post in and talking about people like old friends, who were you before?
I hope it isnt "the Trainer", you do have a ring of him.

I've always been the same guy, 'cept for my handle Lodz.

You might also note this isn't my "second post in," unless of course you cannot count :/

Curiously, I would've given you due props, too.  Oh well.  Attack the person's easier than address what he says, nay?

[Simple Simon]

I've always been the same guy, 'cept for my handle Lodz.

You might also note this isn't my "second post in," unless of course you cannot count :/

Curiously, I would've given you due props, too.  Oh well.  Attack the person's easier than address what he says, nay?

it was your second post 
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=102618;sa=showPosts

[DarthSidious]

Oops, shit, my bad:  I was also doriancutlerman, but for the life of me, I can't track down the email Addy or password associated therewith

[DarthSidious]

it was your second post 
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=102618;sa=showPosts

Heh, you beat me to it!

Lodz first, DCM second, then Darth, which I activated ... today? 

Eh, I'm those guys, but nobody's sock.  I wanted to remain DCM but as I said, I can't remember the email addy I used for it :/

[Simple Simon]

Heh, you beat me to it!

Lodz first, DCM second, then Darth, which I activated ... today? 

Eh, I'm those guys, but nobody's sock.  I wanted to remain DCM but as I said, I can't remember the email addy I used for it :/

welcome to the thunderdome fuckface!!!!!!!!!!!

hang on, waut a minute.....

[DarthSidious]

 

[dj181]

it seems that mentzer looked his best circa 76-77 when he was training full body 3 ttimes per week

he didn't look as good (shape and fullness) in 79-80 when he was training on a 2-way split 3-4 days a week

interesting. ....

[bigbychoices]

lmao at some of these posts. did you know that casey was regaining muscle at the colorado experiment? did you know he fell on an oil rig lost a finger got a serious infection and was hospitalized? thats when jones did the experiment .when casey had lost alot of weight  due to infection. so if any of you actually lift weights ( which i really doubt) then you know how quickly you regain lost muscle. even without drugs. so he regained what he lost. big deal. and yes he did sneak other weight workouts in. did you know casey himself said he got in the best shape of his life when he used VOLUME training. i love nautlius machines i believe in less is more for most of the time. hard and infrequent  with rests. all good advice. BUT its like any other workout program you cant do it all the time. even rotating exercises in and out. you have to give your body a break. and yes mentzer did train like everyone else in his early career he trained that way even in the air force. he didnt start "heavy duty" until he seen casey and met jones and then it took him several years to do it. he had injured a shoulder and wasnt really able to lift and train and compete. please learn more about these great pros before you go repeating WHAT you think is the truth. remember what you read is mostly made up to sell magazines. period.

[FREAKgeek]

Who cares about the Colorado experiment. It just shows that Viator was a freak of nature. It's no testimony to HIT or Nautilus equipment either.

Same with Brooks Kubick going on and on about Peary Rader gaining 100 lbs in one year from squats. Cause he was super skinny means he was a hardgainer, lol.

You want to test the effectiveness of some protocol, you need a cohort of many subjects, a good sampling of the general population. And even then, the test will be flawed cause you can't control everything.

[Disgusted]

lmao at some of these posts. did you know that casey was regaining muscle at the colorado experiment? did you know he fell on an oil rig lost a finger got a serious infection and was hospitalized? thats when jones did the experiment .when casey had lost alot of weight  due to infection. so if any of you actually lift weights ( which i really doubt) then you know how quickly you regain lost muscle. even without drugs. so he regained what he lost. big deal. and yes he did sneak other weight workouts in. did you know casey himself said he got in the best shape of his life when he used VOLUME training. i love nautlius machines i believe in less is more for most of the time. hard and infrequent  with rests. all good advice. BUT its like any other workout program you cant do it all the time. even rotating exercises in and out. you have to give your body a break. and yes mentzer did train like everyone else in his early career he trained that way even in the air force. he didnt start "heavy duty" until he seen casey and met jones and then it took him several years to do it. he had injured a shoulder and wasnt really able to lift and train and compete. please learn more about these great pros before you go repeating WHAT you think is the truth. remember what you read is mostly made up to sell magazines. period.

THIS

[dj181]

calves of peace

[stuntmovie]

(The following in no way disagrees with DARTH nor BIGBY) who apparently appear to know this stuff due to personal involvement.)

I hate to disagree with people I disagree with but it appears that 'most' of you Getbiggers cast your opinions regarding individuals you’ve never met nor seen nor spoken with.

Most Getbiggers were not even born yet, but offer random comments in an effort to be the experts that they want to be …. but ain’t.

I ain’t no expert neither but …. I’ve met and seen and spoken with each and every one of these usual suspects and some non-guilty parties during the period in which  the Colorado Experiment was conducted  ….. and all though I was in no position to accuse anyone of misrepresenting the facts …..

The general consensus of opinion at that precise moment of time was that Casey was  on the juice.

This general consensus of opinion was held by a prevailing number of IFBB professional bodybuilders immediately following the publication of the results of this ‘experiment’.

Needless to say …. the number of professional IFBB bodybuilders at that time was relatively small and some of those doubtful pros may have been expressing a bit of jealousy when the results were publicized.

So if Casey did or did not, is still in question, regardless of what us GetBig experts have to say.

And … I fail to recall any comments nor rumors about Casey training with any equipment other than Nautilus during this experiment.

And you should be aware that Nautilus equipment and Nautilus principals were new at that time and generally not acceptable by most anyone who lifted heavy things.

Arguments are welcome but only from those who were present and a bit more knowledgeable about the subject matter
than those whose imaginations run wild and are not based on what really occurred.

My thanks to DARTH and BIGBY for the comments they offered somewhere above. I had forgotten about Casey's injury.

[The Scott]

Mentzer took lots of drugs (the interview I read is no longer available online), ate a lot and lifted weights.  Anyone of us can do the same with similar but not equal results.

I tried Heavy Duty in the late 70s and it worked but not nearly as well as it did for Mentzer and I suppose that the main reason is no drugs.  Just like a drug protocol, a training routine works differently for each of us but Mentzer was right about the best way to train regardless of whether or not you are natural.

Brooks Kubick gives an example in his book "Dinosaur Training" where talks about taking a skinny guy and putting him to work in a lumber camp.  Grow or die.  If he had thought further about it, he would have noted that the skinny guy was working HARD every day, not just 2 or 4 times a week but his idea is still valid.  Train HARD and then refuel and rest.

I have Mentzer's final book and have tried the every week or more training.  It was so brutal that I didn't want to train the next day.  Or the next.  I was so sore that I stull hurt a week later.  My son refused to train with me as did any one else I knew after doing one session with me in my garage gym.  I combined H.I.T. with Dinosaur Training and just beat the shit out of myself doing it.

I still train in a variation on Mentzer's theme and sometimes incorporate thick bars in there but to be honest, the thick bar training hurts my joints too much.  I train alone and so make use of rest/pause training once or twice a week and also include pre-exhaust training but only once a week.   I am sore but not SORE. Each workout lasts 30 to 45 minutes and I am training 2 to 4 times per week. 

Mentzer's greatest contribution to my training is showing me that I didn't have to be in the gym for up to 5 hours a day 6 days a week.  That sort of life is no life for anyone with aspirations of doing more with the time allotted them.  While not a genius in the Mensa tradition (I have no idea of his IQ but he was a man well versed in a variety of subjects and had common sense to boot), Mike Mentzer was far above the intellectual norm for the world in which he moved.   

I can take a vacation and not worry about not making it to the gym and Mentzer's revelatory writings made me aware of that.  Once I accepted that having a good life as a goal and training to for not only size and strength but good health, I then adapted Mike's H.I.T. to my particular needs.  Now I actually looked forward to days both in and out of the gym.   

And I have Mike Mentzer and to a lesser degree, Brooks Kubick, to thank for that.

[dj181]

What year did mentzer look his best?

'77?

[dseiler]

lmao at some of these posts. did you know that casey was regaining muscle at the colorado experiment? did you know he fell on an oil rig lost a finger got a serious infection and was hospitalized? thats when jones did the experiment .when casey had lost alot of weight  due to infection. so if any of you actually lift weights ( which i really doubt) then you know how quickly you regain lost muscle. even without drugs. so he regained what he lost. big deal. and yes he did sneak other weight workouts in. did you know casey himself said he got in the best shape of his life when he used VOLUME training. i love nautlius machines i believe in less is more for most of the time. hard and infrequent  with rests. all good advice. BUT its like any other workout program you cant do it all the time. even rotating exercises in and out. you have to give your body a break. and yes mentzer did train like everyone else in his early career he trained that way even in the air force. he didnt start "heavy duty" until he seen casey and met jones and then it took him several years to do it. he had injured a shoulder and wasnt really able to lift and train and compete. please learn more about these great pros before you go repeating WHAT you think is the truth. remember what you read is mostly made up to sell magazines. period.

Only reason I come back to this board is this. Great stuff.

[dj181]

also gaysey wasn't 16-17% at the start he was much leaner, more like 7-8% and he wasn't sub-3 at the end either, again like 7-8%

[oldtimer1]

Tired of tin foil hat revisionist that say Sergio's physique was the result of Arthur Jones. He trained a couple of weeks with Jones in Florida.  He trained high volume prior and high volume after as countless guys in the gym can testify too.

[pellius]

lmao at some of these posts. did you know that casey was regaining muscle at the colorado experiment? did you know he fell on an oil rig lost a finger got a serious infection and was hospitalized? thats when jones did the experiment .when casey had lost alot of weight  due to infection. so if any of you actually lift weights ( which i really doubt) then you know how quickly you regain lost muscle. even without drugs. so he regained what he lost. big deal. and yes he did sneak other weight workouts in. did you know casey himself said he got in the best shape of his life when he used VOLUME training. i love nautlius machines i believe in less is more for most of the time. hard and infrequent  with rests. all good advice. BUT its like any other workout program you cant do it all the time. even rotating exercises in and out. you have to give your body a break. and yes mentzer did train like everyone else in his early career he trained that way even in the air force. he didnt start "heavy duty" until he seen casey and met jones and then it took him several years to do it. he had injured a shoulder and wasnt really able to lift and train and compete. please learn more about these great pros before you go repeating WHAT you think is the truth. remember what you read is mostly made up to sell magazines. period.

Casey's story was widely know even in the late seventies and muscle rebound was the primary reason for such rapid gains. Mentzer detailed his history with Casey and Jones and his shift to a different protocol. You can watch Dorian's training tapes where Mentzer's and Jones' influence are obvious.

Taking breaks was clearly encouraged and considered mandatory. Mentzer has a brief discussion about this during his last video tape serious where he questioned that German guy he was training about why he took four or fives days off and even commented that it was a smart thing to do.

[Chidoman]

Casey's story was widely know even in the late seventies and muscle rebound was the primary reason for such rapid gains. Mentzer detailed his history with Casey and Jones and his shift to a different protocol. You can watch Dorian's training tapes where Mentzer's and Jones' influence are obvious.

Taking breaks was clearly encouraged and considered mandatory. Mentzer has a brief discussion about this during his last video tape serious where he questioned that German guy he was training about why he took four or fives days off and even commented that it was a smart thing to do.

This Man knows what he's talking about and It just makes sense!

[pellius]

Tired of tin foil hat revisionist that say Sergio's physique was the result of Arthur Jones. He trained a couple of weeks with Jones in Florida.  He trained high volume prior and high volume after as countless guys in the gym can testify too.

I'm not sure anybody is claiming Jones' was responsible for Sergio's physique. Many claim that Jones' got him into the best shape of his life.

Of course, I wasn't there and stuntmovie feels only those who were or had first hand knowledge can offer an opinion. So perhaps we should listen to what Oliva says himself about his experience with Arthur Jones.

http://muscleandbrawn.com/sergio-oliva-interview/

And as far as training a couple of weeks with Jones:

"My arms were so crazy and the only one who measured them was Arthur Jones. God bless him in heaven because he was real good to me and he was a very honest guy. He didn't believe in all the other stuff. With me he was like a father and took me under his wing. And I spent, I believe it was four or five months in Deland Florida with him and he took care of everything and he took care of me like I was a king. The guy was an incredible man."
https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson331.htm

[bigbychoices]

like i said thats when sergio got serious about his training and nutrition etc. he didnt know much about either. he was a genetic freak for sure. he could of grown just watching people workout.. jones always wanted to say how sergios arm was bigger than his head etc  lmao.  he had one pic where sergio was tilting his head and holdng his arm flexed etc to create the illusion it was and even in that pic it didnt really look like it. lol.and for all of you to know im 53 years old. ive been around this game a long time. been lifting since 14 and before that actually at home i was 12. so yes i do know a few of these guys ( no never met sergio personally)  mentzers, viator ,joe gold ,lee priest, leroy colbert,mike ohearn, barbarians samir ,pearl and a few others.

[NarcissisticDeity]