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Author Topic: god wants the world to be ruled by evil because  (Read 13120 times)
Simple Simon
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« Reply #125 on: October 17, 2017, 01:30:13 PM »

Jesus Christ, biblical scripture, divine revelation of the Holy Spirit in believers....things of that sort. 

What would be the motivation for a divine, transcendent God to pull our legs?  To lie to us essentially?
all written by men, maybe it got lost in translation...

And for his amusement, hes got fuck all else to do, although his time would be better spent feeding the starving or stopping soldiers chopping children's arms and legs off.

But nah....its Gods will.
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Primemuscle
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« Reply #126 on: October 17, 2017, 01:44:35 PM »

So you're suggesting that our conscience (or intuition) is just in us....not instilled.  That we instinctively understand right from wrong without any objective standard as a basis of comparison.   That would suggest that it could be detected or even isolated in the gene code.  Further, how can you trust your conscience....your intuition if it's grounded in subjectivity?  

Sociopaths actually have a lack of conscience or perhaps a denial or suppression of conscience.  If they experience shame it's probably at odds with a non-sociopath; yet, who is right and who is wrong?

Yes, I am saying a conscious is innate. Intuition and conscience are not the same thing. Intuition can be developed and is separate from one's conscience.

A sociopath typically has a conscience, but it's weak. He may know that taking your money is wrong, and he might feel some guilt or remorse, but that won't stop his behavior. Both lack empathy, the ability to stand in someone else's shoes and understand how they feel.

Sociopaths are an anomaly. They are not relevant to this conversation.  

Your conscience is not grounded in subjectivity.
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Primemuscle
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« Reply #127 on: October 17, 2017, 01:56:25 PM »

Jesus Christ, biblical scripture, divine revelation of the Holy Spirit in believers....things of that sort. 

What would be the motivation for a divine, transcendent God to pull our legs?  To lie to us essentially?

This is what many humans have been taught to believe for many centuries. You are referencing tools to teach some religious doctrines (mainly Christianity). These tools are the manifest of humans. It is only by humanizing God that anyone can suggest he's pulling our legs or lying to us.
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« Reply #128 on: October 17, 2017, 02:02:08 PM »

No.  Free will implies the ability to choose to engage in something that is either righteous or sinful.   The act of sin conflicts with God's divine nature and God does nothing that is not in accordance with his divine nature.   That said God simply has perfect, righteous, unchanging will.

Could've stopped there. No free will, therefore not omnipotent. Forget "sin," can't choose at all; everything's already planned. Prayer obviously rendered useless. Essentially a robot.

So why call it god?
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« Reply #129 on: October 17, 2017, 02:10:18 PM »

Yes, I am saying a conscious is innate. Intuition and conscience are not the same thing. Intuition can be developed and is separate from one's conscience.

A sociopath typically has a conscience, but it's weak. He may know that taking your money is wrong, and he might feel some guilt or remorse, but that won't stop his behavior. Both lack empathy, the ability to stand in someone else's shoes and understand how they feel.

Sociopaths are an anomaly. They are not relevant to this conversation.   

Your conscience is not grounded in subjectivity.

Then a conscience is grounded in objectivity.  What's the source of that?
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #130 on: October 17, 2017, 02:12:14 PM »

Could've stopped there. No free will, therefore not omnipotent. Forget "sin," can't choose at all; everything's already planned. Prayer obviously rendered useless. Essentially a robot.

So why call it god?

But I already explained that God doesn't act outside of his divine, righteous nature.  

Why is it wrong to steal?  Because God is not a thief.
Why is it wrong to lie?  Because God is not a liar.

God's will is in accordance with his nature which is divine, holy, righteous and just.  God cannot be otherwise because he would not be God.   

And to them claim that God can't defy his nature therefore he isn't all powerful therefore he isn't God is a nonsequitur.
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« Reply #131 on: October 17, 2017, 02:14:51 PM »

This is what many humans have been taught to believe for many centuries. You are referencing tools to teach some religious doctrines (mainly Christianity). These tools are the manifest of humans. It is only by humanizing God that anyone can suggest he's pulling our legs or lying to us.

They are tools to teach Christianity but they are sourced from God and vetted by special revelation, history, archeology and fulfillment of prophecy.

I agree that is the only way.
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« Reply #132 on: October 17, 2017, 03:07:38 PM »

Then a conscience is grounded in objectivity.  What's the source of that?

Bump for Prime.
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« Reply #133 on: October 18, 2017, 02:51:35 AM »

God??!! This is the 21st Century, we know there are no gods now surely ...  Roll Eyes

falcon probably live somewhere on route 66 , bible belt section Cheesy
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« Reply #134 on: October 18, 2017, 05:32:39 AM »

It's funny to me that this thread was neither started on nor moved to the Religion board.
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« Reply #135 on: October 18, 2017, 06:33:03 AM »

the explanation is in the previous post
they check their behaviour in a hope they will be rewarded in the afterlife.
If they thought there was no afterlife they would have no consequences and a person without fear of consequence is very dangerous indeed.

Plato teaches us that we should be good in life, to reap the benefits in life.

He argued that if we are virtuas : striving for wisdom, courage, moderation and justice and balance in life, while being ruled by logic and not desire, we will be happy. Lack of these these traits (virtue) will mean that we are unbalanced and our mind and body will not be in sync. The body mustn't rule the mind or our logic would be under the control of short term desire and wants, if logic rules our lives in balance with the other virtues of wisdom, courage and restraint, then we will be happy.

It should be noted that the writers of the New Testament would have been educated in Greek philosophy and were familiar with Plato and other Greek philosophers.







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« Reply #136 on: October 18, 2017, 07:10:15 AM »

Plato teaches us that we should be good in life, to reap the benefits in life.

He argued that if we are virtuas : striving for wisdom, courage, moderation and justice and balance in life, while being ruled by logic and not desire, we will be happy. Lack of these these traits (virtue) will mean that we are unbalanced and our mind and body will not be in sync. The body mustn't rule the mind or our logic would be under the control of short term desire and wants, if logic rules our lives in balance with the other virtues of wisdom, courage and restraint, then we will be happy.

It should be noted that the writers of the New Testament would have been educated in Greek philosophy and were familiar with Plato and other Greek philosophers.









So I'm understanding, are you suggesting that given Plato's subjective opinion on leading a virtuous life that this takes precedence over an objective standard by God or removes the need for God's divine objectivity?

I agree there was absolutely education on Greek philosophy per NT writers.....earliest NT manuscripts were penned in Koine Greek.
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« Reply #137 on: October 18, 2017, 09:36:03 AM »

Then a conscience is grounded in objectivity.  What's the source of that?

What I wrote is that a conscience is not grounded in objectivity.
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #138 on: October 18, 2017, 09:52:21 AM »

What I wrote is that a conscience is not grounded in objectivity.

You actually wrote not grounded in subjectivity, but you meant not grounded in objectivity?  Is that right?  Dont wanna misrepresent you.
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« Reply #139 on: October 18, 2017, 10:05:04 AM »

They are tools to teach Christianity but they are sourced from God and vetted by special revelation, history, archeology and fulfillment of prophecy.

I agree that is the only way.
Sourced from God is what a lot of people have been taught and believe. I have no issue with this.
If humanizing God helps you to believe, that's fine. "God" is within us and in each of us God is unique and also the thread by which we are all connected.
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« Reply #140 on: October 18, 2017, 10:16:40 AM »

You actually wrote not grounded in subjectivity, but you meant not grounded in objectivity?  Is that right?  Dont wanna misrepresent you.

Thank you for catching this.  Both, objectivity and subjectivity are human traits which vary from person to person.
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« Reply #141 on: October 18, 2017, 10:39:44 AM »

Prime, is it possible that you wrote what you meant and what you know to be true, but then realized you don't quite understand it?

It sort of looks like that.
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« Reply #142 on: October 18, 2017, 03:51:01 PM »

Man of Steel had a divine intervention. We didn't have such privilege. Without that, he too would've doubted his own arguments.
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« Reply #143 on: October 19, 2017, 05:32:29 AM »

Man of Steel had a divine intervention. We didn't have such privilege. Without that, he too would've doubted his own arguments.

Well, it's refreshing that you acknowledge the divine intervention that occurred.   I surrendered first and then the Holy Spirit arrived powerfully.  I would say you haven't experienced such definite privilege because your heart is closed to God hence he is not actively drawing you unto him.

Now, please don't use "what if" scenarios to justify your own shortcomings as it pertains to God.  Just own your situation and don't attempt to twist mine into a justification for continuation of your personal suppression and hatred of God.
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Primemuscle
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« Reply #144 on: October 19, 2017, 10:11:33 AM »

Prime, is it possible that you wrote what you meant and what you know to be true, but then realized you don't quite understand it?

It sort of looks like that.

Anything is possible. Possibly my subconscious slipped one in.  Wink

The bottom line is that I'm open to other's religious beliefs. I'm not trying to convince anyone that I know the "truth" or that I am right and they are wrong.
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« Reply #145 on: October 20, 2017, 09:19:02 AM »

Anything is possible. Possibly my subconscious slipped one in.  Wink

The bottom line is that I'm open to other's religious beliefs. I'm not trying to convince anyone that I know the "truth" or that I am right and they are wrong.

It's consistent with the idea you were putting forward at that time, so if anything subconscious happened then it was only your knowing it couldn't necessarily be explained through the stand you'd been taking to that point.

So, let me ask you this.  Do you believe it's fair to say that everyone may possess conscience, but what makes each of us different in that regard may be our individual connection to it?
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« Reply #146 on: October 20, 2017, 12:49:42 PM »

Well, it's refreshing that you acknowledge the divine intervention that occurred.   I surrendered first and then the Holy Spirit arrived powerfully.  I would say you haven't experienced such definite privilege because your heart is closed to God hence he is not actively drawing you unto him.

Now, please don't use "what if" scenarios to justify your own shortcomings as it pertains to God.  Just own your situation and don't attempt to twist mine into a justification for continuation of your personal suppression and hatred of God.

Was your "heart opened" before the divine intervention?

What exactly is a closed heart to god MOS?
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« Reply #147 on: October 20, 2017, 01:13:26 PM »

Was your "heart opened" before the divine intervention?

What exactly is a closed heart to god MOS?

Imo, it means to keep God excluded from one's knowledge.
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« Reply #148 on: October 20, 2017, 01:25:22 PM »

Imo, it means to keep God excluded from one's knowledge.

I find that ironic, cause, some of the greatest desires to study and know god are from atheists.
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« Reply #149 on: October 20, 2017, 01:37:42 PM »

I find that ironic, cause, some of the greatest desires to study and know god are from atheists.

To "know god"?  Not sure I follow, about the atheists you mention who study toward doing that.
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