Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
August 01, 2014, 07:37:51 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Bodybuilding's DEAD POOL... this list is f#@king crazy...  (Read 28994 times)
Medford
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Female
Posts: 13375


lookatthisfatperson.com


View Profile
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2006, 05:45:32 PM »

It must drive her nuts to think about the fact that had she taken the lesser charge, she'd be out by now. 

Huh

She wasn't offered a lesser charge.
Report to moderator   Logged

F
shortfatugly
Getbig III
***
Posts: 335


View Profile
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2006, 05:54:57 PM »

Huh
She wasn't offered a lesser charge.

BACKGROUNDWe take the following recitation of background facts fromthe California Court of Appeal’s decision, People v. McNeil,slip op. at 2-5:

McNeil and Ray were both former [M]arines,bodybuilders and steroid users. Their relationshipwas replete with violent altercations. Evidence wasintroduced that McNeil had hit Ray and threw thingsat him, including dumbbells and a VCR that shethrew out a second story window as Ray was walk-ing below, and that Ray had hit, kicked and pushedMcNeil leaving her with bruises and black eyes. Evi-dence was also introduced that McNeil had severalviolent altercations with others, including womenshe suspected Ray was having affairs with, barroombouncers, and the police. On the night of the shooting, Ray said he wasgoing out to the Price Club, which closed at 8:30p.m., to get chicken for dinner. However, he did notreturn until 10:30 p.m., and had gone to a moreexpensive market. Ray had had several affairs duringthe course of the marriage, and McNeil suspected hehad been seeing a girlfriend. McNeil criticized Rayfor getting the more expensive chicken, which shecould not afford, and asked what had taken him solong and if he had been with his girlfriend. She alsotold him he looked like “shit” and would not do wellin an upcoming bodybuilding contest. McNeil told police that Ray then slapped her,pushed her down on the floor and started chokingher.

McNeil squirmed away, ran into the bedroomand took her shotgun out of its case in the closet. Shegrabbed two shells, loaded one, pumped the gun, andthen “went out and aimed it at [Ray]” and shot him.At the time, Ray was at the kitchen stove cookingchicken. McNeil stated that after Ray was shot, hedoubled over and then came towards her, so sheloaded the second round, pumped the gun again, andshot him a second time. After that, McNeil gave the shotgun to a neighbor,and called 911. The 911 operator who took the calltestified that she heard a male, who had been moan-ing, ask: “Why did you shoot me?” and McNeilrespond: “I told you that I wasn’t taking your shitanymore.”

When police arrived, Ray was on his hands andknees about five feet inside the apartment andMcNeil was standing at the kitchen sink. It lookedlike Ray’s face had been blown off from the bridgeof his nose down, and he was saying “Why?[,]” “OhGod,” and “Help me.” When paramedics arrived,Ray pointed to his stomach, and they saw his liverprotruding through the skin. Ray was taken to thehospital and died that night. The shotgun wound tohis midsection was the one that caused his death; theshotgun blast to his face caused massive damage tohis lower jaw and face. A police criminologist testified that the weaponused was a 12-gauge pump shotgun with a pistolgrip, which was fired at Ray’s midsection and thenat his face from about six feet away. A crime scenereconstructionist opined that Ray’s head was closeto, and in line with, the sofa cushions when he wasshot in the face, which would indicate that Ray wasnot upright when he was shot a second time.

Police discovered fingernail marks on McNeil’sneck the night of the shooting and Ray’s body wasexhumed so that his fingernails could be examined.His fingernails were very short, and it was deter-mined that his hands could not have caused themarks on McNeil’s neck and further, that the markswere inconsistent with manual strangulation andcould have been self-inflicted. B. MCNEIL’SDEFENSEAt trial, the State argued that McNeil committed murderwhen she killed Ray. McNeil’s defense was that she killedRay because she feared for her life. She presented this defensethrough the testimony of an expert on BWS and through herown testimony regarding her history of abuse at the hands of Ray.

That was taken from her appeal transcript.
McNeil is Sally mcneil and
Ray is Ray Mcneil.

Sally present evidence that she was abused in her first marriage and this caused her to be HYPERSENSITIVE TO further abuse from anyone.

The judge instructed the jurors on 4 charges, one of which was voluntary manslaughter.  That could have been offered as a plea bargain - and only her lawyer, Sally and the prosecutors would know about it.

If it was offered, she should have taken it.  She wasn't rich enough to pull a Blake or a Simpson. 
Report to moderator   Logged
njflex
Competitors
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 19043


team guido


View Profile
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2006, 08:27:47 PM »

I remember that sad lives,sad ending Undecided
Report to moderator   Logged

$
LuciusFox
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 8776


View Profile
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2006, 08:36:45 PM »

I remember that sad lives,sad ending Undecided

 That's horrible Cry
Report to moderator   Logged
Mr. Intenseone
Guest
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2006, 08:38:23 PM »

I could just as easily come up with a list of bodybuilders who died young in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s.

Yeah Tim, but most didn't intentionally want to kill themselves and have judges as accessories!!
Report to moderator   Logged
War-Horse
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 6494


View Profile
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2006, 08:46:13 PM »

Tim: I'm curious if you're suggesting that people simply die and that the current chemical warfare doesn't accelerate that?

It is pretty hard to study something like steroid abuse scientifically because I doubt a study like that would be put into practice.

I hope hes not saying that.    Common sense tells you when you stick hormones in your body for years on end, it cant be good.         Pathetic really, and all for a metal statue, that youll pawn when your other drug addictions kick in.
Report to moderator   Logged
LuciusFox
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 8776


View Profile
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2006, 08:48:24 PM »

I hope hes not saying that.    Common sense tells you when you stick hormones in your body for years on end, it cant be good.         Pathetic really, and all for a metal statue, that youll pawn when your other drug addictions kick in.

 But, they dwarf you  Grin
Report to moderator   Logged
buffalo
Getbig IV
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 1418



View Profile
« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2006, 09:12:16 PM »

people need to get out of violent relationships.  Sally was a fucking fool for sticking around with Ray beating her ass...but she chose to stay cause she was a sick individual.

A normal individual would have left.  I don't really think Sally falls under the typical battered woman syndrome.  She could physically take care of herself and she didn't have any problems being violent with Ray on different occasions.

The normal battered woman is so afraid for her life every waking day she wouldn't say boo to the guy.

The details in this case are disgusting especially for the McNeill kids
Report to moderator   Logged
LuciusFox
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 8776


View Profile
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2006, 09:16:49 PM »

people need to get out of violent relationships.  Sally was a fucking fool for sticking around with Ray beating her ass...but she chose to stay cause she was a sick individual.

A normal individual would have left.  I don't really think Sally falls under the typical battered woman syndrome.  She could physically take care of herself and she didn't have any problems being violent with Ray on different occasions.

The normal battered woman is so afraid for her life every waking day she wouldn't say boo to the guy.

The details in this case are disgusting especially for the McNeill kids

 It certainly did NOT have to end that way.
Report to moderator   Logged
timfogarty
Expert
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 6052


@fogartyTim on twitter


View Profile WWW
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2006, 11:39:59 PM »

Tim: I'm curious if you're suggesting that people simply die and that the current chemical warfare doesn't accelerate that?

no, just that anecdotal information is meaningless.   any drug can be abused, and many people do abuse performance enhancing drugs.  but it's pretty hard to say that steroids caused a specific person's death.

some young people die of cancer.  some young people who take AS die of cancer.

Quote
It is pretty hard to study something like steroid abuse scientifically because I doubt a study like that would be put into practice.

no, in fact it's quite easy to do.   compare rates of diseases in different populations.  figure out how often young athletes get a disease, compare that to how often it occurs in young athletes who take AS.  so far, no study has shown an increase in any disease in those who use AS. 

Now doses of performance enhancing drugs have gone up dramatically in the last 20 years.  The use of insulin and GH are rather new.  The long term effect of that is still unknown.  But moderate doses of AS have been used by hundreds of thousands if not millions of athletes for more than 60 years.   No scientific study has shown a correlation between the use of (reasonable doses of) anabolic steroids and any disease.

One problem is that other drugs besides AS are being used for performance enhancing purposes.  Amphetamines and cocaine are used by way too many athletes to get that extra umph.  I'd bet that for a good number of athletes dying of heart failure, some kind of stimulant was the cause.
Report to moderator   Logged

brianX
Getbig IV
****
Posts: 2813

Kiwiol has 13" arms!


View Profile
« Reply #60 on: April 09, 2006, 11:58:40 PM »

Steroids and anti-estrogens wreak havoc on cholesterol levels. One of the mods on Muscle Mayhem wrote a long article about this. A huge number of top powerlifters and bodybuilders have died at a young age from heart disease or had serious heart problems. I'm talking about people who exercise, eat well, and are naturally healthy. In no way is this a new phenomenon. It's been happening since at least the early 70's.
Report to moderator   Logged

hahahahahahahahahahahaha
onlyme
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 19351


Don't Fuck With Bears


View Profile WWW
« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2006, 12:41:22 AM »

Does anyone know the story of when Ray Mentzer was seeing Rachel McClish, about when he held her up over his head and was going to throw her out the 6th story window or balcony.  And was it Ray and Mike or someone who wrote on the back of a check they were cashing at the bank "This is a hold-up" and the alarm was pressed and the cops came.
Report to moderator   Logged
shortfatugly
Getbig III
***
Posts: 335


View Profile
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2006, 03:05:54 AM »

people need to get out of violent relationships.  Sally was a fucking fool for sticking around with Ray beating her ass...but she chose to stay cause she was a sick individual.

A normal individual would have left.  I don't really think Sally falls under the typical battered woman syndrome.  She could physically take care of herself and she didn't have any problems being violent with Ray on different occasions.

The normal battered woman is so afraid for her life every waking day she wouldn't say boo to the guy.

The details in this case are disgusting especially for the McNeill kids

Pretty much in complete agreement with you Buffalo.

Maybe most people at the very top of anything are twisted a little bit, if not a lot. 

The Battered woman syndrome wouldn't fly with Sally for the reasons you gave. 

Sally McNeil apparently was at that time in her life, somewhat violent and very quick to act and react.  The wording is kind of hard to follow but MCNEIL is Sally : she was the one who threw a VCR through the window at RAY, she also hit Ray many times and would get in fights with other women.  She wasn't a calm woman by any means. 

Now, several years later, she appears to be almost a buddhist: writing poetry, smelling the flowers, watching the bees or whatever she is doing.  It took her having to murder someone to finally understand that Life in Venice / LA was not for her.  It chews up and destroys people who can't tolerate what is needed ( by some ) to make it there.  If you have a screwed up personality, prone to violence or extremely jealous, thin skin, can't handle criticism or whatever other defect, that fast paced life amplifies it. 

The sick part of it is that the violence was reciprocal and Sally didn't want to leave Ray since RAy had a monster cock on him.  This was stated in an article about the crime at the time.  The specific number mentioned was 11 inches for those enquiring minds.  She couldn't give it up. 
Report to moderator   Logged
shortfatugly
Getbig III
***
Posts: 335


View Profile
« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2006, 03:40:38 AM »

Ray McNeil was out there in the kitchen cooking chicken ?  While his wife was in there loading a shot gun. 

The comment " i am not going to take your shit anymore" should have meant " i am going to walk out that door and you will be receiving the divorce notice soon thereafter"  not " I am going to attempt to blow you head clean off after pumping your guts full of lead !"

The self defense thing didn't work possibly due to the fact that by her own testimony she was not in imminent danger.  She could have left.  The violence seemed to have dissipated. 

For those amateur criminologists who watch a lot of CSI Las Vegas - the episode where the guy on the plane freaks out and is subdued by the other passengers is sort of like this.  In that episode- they drug the guy away from the door, then beat him to death.  It was plainly murder as the danger had passed.  Even your hero Grissom called it on that one.  But nothing was done about it and everyone walked.

Ray didn't chase Sally down the hall.  she could have left.  But that sort of thing didn't enter her mind.  The prosecutors portrayed Sally, like they portrayed Gordon Kimbrough  ( another murderer ) before her, as a sort of person who just couldn't let go; who couldn't stand that she wasn't in control of the situation and wanted to get even rather than just leave. 
Report to moderator   Logged
shortfatugly
Getbig III
***
Posts: 335


View Profile
« Reply #64 on: April 10, 2006, 03:47:15 AM »

I know Tim is pretty pro-steroid when it comes to analyzing the science of the matter and not anecdotal evidence.  But he did once say that bodybuilding stopped becoming about health and fitness around the 1950s or sixties just before the area where chemicals became more in the picture.

http://www.musclememory.com/showArticle.php?md120124

I'm glad that Tim corrected the bullshit in that article.  I would expect more from MD but I suppose that is a very old issue.

It is pretty much taken as fact that the low test dosages of 250 to 600 mg week or 10 days are safe.  But this is not the only thing that people use and not in those miniscule amounts.   

Bodybuilding even way back when was only secondarily about health and fitness; it was more about living a carefree and hedonistic lifestyle. ANd health and fitness was a close second.  The people from that era who are still alive talk about how it was all aobut health and fitness - looking back- nostalgia being what it is.

Yet being young, carefree , working out in the sun, on the beach with little if any police or authority  involvement in the activities, certainly lead to a lot of fun shit happening a lot of the time! 
Report to moderator   Logged
Bigger Business
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 6306



View Profile WWW
« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2006, 04:19:24 AM »

steroids dont kill people
Report to moderator   Logged
shortfatugly
Getbig III
***
Posts: 335


View Profile
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2006, 04:26:25 AM »

steroids dont kill people

agreed.   

although Mike matarazzo almost proved everyone completely wrong.  The alterations in his lipid profile undoubtedly were caused, in part or in whole, by his imprudent choice/timing  of AAS.  Having at 38 years old what normally happens to people in their 60's is not a positive sign.  It being so far away from the norm that it almost precludes it from being due strictly to chance.  Something he did caused this to happen to him.  And the fact that he wasn't getting scheduled routine blood work done seems almost scary if not completely stupid. 

It is the lifestyle that goes along with it. 
Report to moderator   Logged
puredrive
Getbig II
**
Posts: 121

Getbig!


View Profile
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2006, 04:37:48 AM »

sally should rot in prison for her entire term. one gunshot would have been enough to stop him. a second just shows her desire to actually kill someone when she got mad enough. for her to claim to be scared is insane. that woman used to beat up women who talked to Ray. and he would get attacked by her often enough as well. not saying what he did was ok. but there are so many other things someone can do to get ot of or change an abusive relationship. for anyone to even give this beast  an ounce of mercy just shows how insane some people can when it comes to defending juiceheads.
Report to moderator   Logged
shortfatugly
Getbig III
***
Posts: 335


View Profile
« Reply #68 on: April 10, 2006, 04:38:21 AM »

no, just that anecdotal information is meaningless.   any drug can be abused, and many people do abuse performance enhancing drugs.  but it's pretty hard to say that steroids caused a specific person's death.

some young people die of cancer.  some young people who take AS die of cancer.

no, in fact it's quite easy to do.   compare rates of diseases in different populations.  figure out how often young athletes get a disease, compare that to how often it occurs in young athletes who take AS.  so far, no study has shown an increase in any disease in those who use AS. 



It's called morbidity and I already mentioned it right here.

You have a great site Tim!  thanks.  

It should be stated that there appears to be an increase in the incidence of certain diseases /ailments in the current rash of bodybuilders, say within the last 15 years or so.  The earlier guys from the 30' 40's and 50's generally did live to a ripe old age.  I doubt that anyone has done any studies to show this.  

The average age of first heart attack for the general public is often quoted as being somewhere in the 60's.  A few current bodybuilders have had heart attacks.  If a person were so inclined, they could go thru the list of all the past competitors and see when, if ever they experienced whatever ailment.  And then compare it to the national average.  If it is substantially different, by means of Statistical analsysis, then you could say that there is a pattern.

It would cost some money to do this; It also isn't necessary.  The length and dosage of drugs needed to play this game at the top level are certainly affecting these people's health.  Usually it's kidney or liver damage.  

it appears to me that there is a pattern coming out that has the newer younger guys experiencing ailments earlier than you would otherwise expect.  

You look to see at what age a certain ailment occurs and compare it to the average.  taking into account standard deviations, you come up with a certain range of ages that you are comfortable with in saying that this is a normal representation of the ages when this disease happens.  

If someone is outside this age bracket, then you have to say that it is not a CHANCE or random event.  

it is getting rather obvious that some bodybuilders illnesses are happening long before 2 standard deviations from the norm.  

It is most likely  NOT due to test or other AAS but the concomitant use of gh, igf, insulin and whatever else they are on.  pinepples even.  It is difficult but not impossible to follow all the interactions that the combined drug load causes on a person's system.  it would just cost money and time.
Report to moderator   Logged
shortfatugly
Getbig III
***
Posts: 335


View Profile
« Reply #69 on: April 10, 2006, 04:45:08 AM »

sally should rot in prison for her entire term. one gunshot would have been enough to stop him. a second just shows her desire to actually kill someone when she got mad enough. for her to claim to be scared is insane. that woman used to beat up women who talked to Ray. and he would get attacked by her often enough as well. not saying what he did was ok. but there are so many other things someone can do to get ot of or change an abusive relationship. for anyone to even give this beast  an ounce of mercy just shows how insane some people can when it comes to defending juiceheads.


that and another thing:

just as many people sided with oj simpson for having only one thing in common with him,  many women who really dont' know or don't care about Sally's particular situation, want to side with her as it promotes a very easily exploited situation.  There are many women who are in terrible marriages with an absolute brute for a man.  They can't leave and won't.  So it is easy for another woman to simply side with ALL women who kill a man and use the abuse excuse for the reason.  

Women who themselves have been in horrible situations AND who now generalize to say that ALL men are shit, tend to agree with any woman who kills their husband.  Betty Broderick for example killed her ex husband.  Although physical abuse wasn't offered as the prime motivator in that case: she said that she broke into her exhusband home so that she could kill herself in front of him and his new wife.  That fact that she was a horrible shot and ended up shooting both her husband and his wife as they lay in bed, covered by bed sheets, didn't seem to impact on her thinking of suicice.  She said that " I missed and all of a sudden they were dead" or something to that effect. 

her suicide story didn't fly when it was later found that she may have shot her husband as he was reaching for the telephone.  But she has never changed her story about the suicide thing and later said that the mental abuse inflicted upon her by her husband was enormous.  She couldn't clarify what exactly the abuse was- only that he left her and that this was abuse. 

anyway, enough hijacking of this thread.  sorry
Report to moderator   Logged
NPCOK
Getbig II
**
Gender: Male
Posts: 101



View Profile
« Reply #70 on: April 10, 2006, 04:50:04 AM »

Stupidity kills people every fucking day...You mention Paul's death being so sad....when you shoot heroin you wil eventually die...whether or not you used to be a bodybuilder. People die every day in their beds or in their cars etc....everybody dies...not many ever truly live!
Report to moderator   Logged
shortfatugly
Getbig III
***
Posts: 335


View Profile
« Reply #71 on: April 12, 2006, 04:51:52 AM »

I will get more into this later but to be completely fair Mike had claimed to have a diet very high in dairy - tons of red meat and I recall either a dozen or two dozen eggs a day.  He also claimed that he would eat (and I'm "not shitting you" as he put it) up to 25 chicken breasts in a day and that if he didn't he could see himself fade over the course of a day.  He was amazed that Paul Dillett could slack off on his diet and not fade throughout the course of a day.

I would say diet affected Mike's condition moreso than steroids, but certainly neither was conducive to heart health.

I already covered this when i said " it is the lifestyle that kills you" or whatever it was.  Steroids, high protein, the other magic drugs that make up the 'best kept secret" elixir.  Steroids MAY have cause the smallest effect but it's combined with all the others.

People who are attracted to high end bodybuilding usually appear to be almost predisposed to certain behaviors that lead them to self-injury.  It's like a manifest destiny for them. 

And again, i am sure you understand epidemiological studies yet I will once again say that many people eat similarly horrible diets but do not have triple by pass surgery at 38 years old.  In spite of all the obesity and terrible eating habits, inactivity of the american public and all that, the average age of first MI or heart incident is in the early 60's. 

The thing that was added to MIke's mix that may not be in the diet of the average Joe Slob was the drug cocktail.   
Report to moderator   Logged
bmacsys
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 6082

Getbig!


View Profile
« Reply #72 on: April 12, 2006, 05:09:42 AM »

Does anyone know the story of when Ray Mentzer was seeing Rachel McClish, about when he held her up over his head and was going to throw her out the 6th story window or balcony.  And was it Ray and Mike or someone who wrote on the back of a check they were cashing at the bank "This is a hold-up" and the alarm was pressed and the cops came.

Keith, what were Mike and Ray like as people? Good guys?
Report to moderator   Logged

The House that Ruth built
bmacsys
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 6082

Getbig!


View Profile
« Reply #73 on: April 12, 2006, 05:11:37 AM »

agreed.   

although Mike matarazzo almost proved everyone completely wrong.  The alterations in his lipid profile undoubtedly were caused, in part or in whole, by his imprudent choice/timing  of AAS.  Having at 38 years old what normally happens to people in their 60's is not a positive sign.  It being so far away from the norm that it almost precludes it from being due strictly to chance.  Something he did caused this to happen to him.  And the fact that he wasn't getting scheduled routine blood work done seems almost scary if not completely stupid. 

It is the lifestyle that goes along with it. 


Mike states 100% that his drug usage precluded his health problems.
Report to moderator   Logged

The House that Ruth built
shortfatugly
Getbig III
***
Posts: 335


View Profile
« Reply #74 on: April 12, 2006, 05:47:38 AM »


Mike states 100% that his drug usage precluded his health problems.

how did his drug usage prevent his health problems from happening?
Report to moderator   Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Theme created by Egad Community. Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!