Author Topic: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit  (Read 22366 times)

Skylge

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2018, 08:58:38 AM »
I've been saying this for a while. Today's guys have small chests because they use MACHINES today. Old school guys used free weights and benched heavy. Good listen:

That would mean that all builders from the seventies had fabulous chests.
Many of them didn't

chaos

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2018, 09:32:18 AM »
No barbell or dumbbell can mimic the path of resistance of, say the Hammer or Nautilus bicep machine. The difference is that the machine provides a full range of motion in a rotary fashion which is how your joints move. The cam also provides variable resistance to mimic the strength curve of your muscle as it is stronger in some positions and weaker in others. Free weight just provides resistance in an up and down fashion so you only get the full resistance, in the case of the barbell/dumbbell curl, when your forearm is parallel to the ground. You are also limited to the weight you can use when your joints are in the weakest position. 
And nobody has the same length arms/ legs. This means the fixed machine creates a different path for different people. A free weight travels in a natural motion to each persons body.
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

funk51

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2018, 09:47:47 AM »
They were both over 6 feet tall with large rib cages. Of course their pecs are going to be more massive than those of today’s midget bber.

Back in the day, I was a trainer in a gym where Arnold used to occasionally train. I personally saw him using the Cybex machine for chest.

Phil has shitty pecs for the same reason he has great arms: genetics.
                       these guys were short and they had great chests in the 50's and 60's.
F

funk51

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2018, 09:48:30 AM »
 ;)
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Dave D

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2018, 10:00:03 AM »
Remember the original Nautilus leg press machine? Jones, through the use of the cam, tried to mimic the natural strength curve of the pressing movement of the legs, i.e. how you are so much weaker in the full squat position and the resistance started to increase as you pushed forward allowing maximum load, or as close to it, during the full range of motion through the use of the cam.

With the barbell squat, you are limited to the amount of weight you can use when you are at the weakest position, in the bucket, the full squat position. So in practice, it is very hard getting out of the bucket and then it becomes relatively easy to lock out as you get so much stronger, or rather in a much stronger position, as you get closer to the top.

Furthermore, in the squat, the resistance is placed on the top of the spine, and has to travel down the very weak and unstable path of the spine and vertebrates which are designed more for mobility than stability, going to the lower back, then finally the strong heavy bones of the hips and legs.

With the leg press the resistance starts at your strongest foundation only having to travel past the large and strongest bones and joints of your femor and hips.

This is not to mention the instability inherent in balancing and moving with a heavy bar across your shoulders and spine and trying to maintain proper posture as you start to fatigue. With the leg press your body is naturally held in a stable position.  

Exercise should enhance strength and functional ability and I don't think it is a coincidence that many, if not most, have to quit doing barbell squats as they get older because of the damage and unnatural strain it puts on the body. There's a lady in our gym in a wheelchair that is still able to do the Hammer or Hoist leg press.


Good post however I'll disagree and argue that the squat (and all lifts save for dumbell presses) starts at the strongest position/foundation, the lock out. Every lift is limited by an individual's strength in the weakest position even with the leg press.

I would also add that the squat is the most "athletic" lift of the non- Olympic lifts. The biggest issue for most people who attempt to perform a squat is balance and then flexibility.  Even when teaching someone to free squat (with no weight) there are many difficulties just because of the coordination required.


Weight training is an unnatural strain on the body period. I agree many quit squatting as they age because it's no longer a "cost effective" (mobility and flexibility declines) exercise, and that's assuming they were able to squat properly before, but because the squat is more of an athletic movement it is also very difficult to continue performing it.

Henda

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2018, 10:36:57 AM »
How dare you talk of the biceps supinator machine like that.It is a technological marvel.

Haha I’m sure Vince sees it that way, the supinatior reminds me of those ‘transformer’ toys that were about when we were a kid after the very first time you try and turn it from a car to a robot it ends up stuck as and unusable pile of utter shit

funk51

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2018, 10:48:24 AM »
 ;) genetics plus hard work plus a little juice, no machines save some pulleys.=results
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SOMEPARTS

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2018, 10:58:29 AM »
Not in total disagreement but...who had a pec torn off the bone again? Leeeevroneeee

Humble Narcissist

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2018, 11:04:12 AM »
No barbell or dumbbell can mimic the path of resistance of, say the Hammer or Nautilus bicep machine. The difference is that the machine provides a full range of motion in a rotary fashion which is how your joints move. The cam also provides variable resistance to mimic the strength curve of your muscle as it is stronger in some positions and weaker in others. Free weight just provides resistance in an up and down fashion so you only get the full resistance, in the case of the barbell/dumbbell curl, when your forearm is parallel to the ground. You are also limited to the weight you can use when your joints are in the weakest position. 
Whenever this free weights vs. machines argument comes up people forget the neurological differences.  Doing squats doesn't just require strength but balance as well.  The stabilizer muscles are put to work as well and these are not activated in a fixed machine lift.  Machine lifting makes you strong for that machine but that is all.  Squatting makes you strong throughout the body.

No NFL or D1 college football teams use machines only for their strength training programs.  No NHL hockey team or any Olympic athlete in a speed or power sport lifts with machines exclusively or even a majority of their strength training.

Arthur Jones as well as any other machine maker (including Vince Basil) has a financial motive to convince people machines are superior even though there are no examples they can use to prove their theories.

pellius

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2018, 11:16:38 AM »
And nobody has the same length arms/ legs. This means the fixed machine creates a different path for different people. A free weight travels in a natural motion to each persons body.

But the machines aren't fixed. They are adjustable. The natural motion of the body is rotary. When you are doing a curl your hand and forearm is making an arc, a half circle. Free weights, entirely dependent on gravity, only provides resistance in a straight line in an up and down movement. You only get full resistance when the limb is perpendicular to the weight. In the case of the curl, when your forearm is parallel to the floor.

Kwon

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2018, 11:27:25 AM »
i feel kevin had a good plan of attack wth bbing

take lots of time off/breaks and then go back at it hard core 100%

Yes, Kevin was unique in this way.
Q

pellius

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2018, 11:30:17 AM »
Good post however I'll disagree and argue that the squat (and all lifts save for dumbell presses) starts at the strongest position/foundation, the lock out. Every lift is limited by an individual's strength in the weakest position even with the leg press.

I would also add that the squat is the most "athletic" lift of the non- Olympic lifts. The biggest issue for most people who attempt to perform a squat is balance and then flexibility.  Even when teaching someone to free squat (with no weight) there are many difficulties just because of the coordination required.


Weight training is an unnatural strain on the body period. I agree many quit squatting as they age because it's no longer a "cost effective" (mobility and flexibility declines) exercise, and that's assuming they were able to squat properly before, but because the squat is more of an athletic movement it is also very difficult to continue performing it.

You are right on all points. From an athletic point of view, squats are superior. Squatting with a barbell requires some athletic skill and your body has to conform to the movement, meaning you have to develop some measure of flexibility and proper posture and body mechanics while in motion. Essential qualities in an athlete.

If your goal is primarily focused  toward health and muscle strength and hypertrophy you want to minimize the skill aspect of a movement and be in the most stable position so you can focus primarily on contracting the targetted muscle.

Humble Narcissist

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2018, 11:37:12 AM »
But the machines aren't fixed. They are adjustable. The natural motion of the body is rotary. When you are doing a curl your hand and forearm is making an arc, a half circle. Free weights, entirely dependent on gravity, only provides resistance in a straight line in an up and down movement. You only get full resistance when the limb is perpendicular to the weight. In the case of the curl, when your forearm is parallel to the floor.
They are adjustable to your height but once you are locked in the weight only moves in the fixed direction of the cam.  Take 2 identical twins and train one on machines only and the other on free weights only for 90 days.  Then switch the training programs and you will see the twin who trained on free weights for the first 90 days will be stronger in both lifts (the machine and free weight squats) and the twin who did only machine work the first 90 days will be significantly weaker.

I always ask for examples of a professional NFL or NHL team that uses primarily machines for their strength training programs because none exist.  Why is this so?  If machines made athletes so much stronger why wouldn't a strength coach train his athletes that way?

Dieter

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2018, 11:47:02 AM »
Jorma Raty had a chest smaller than a lot of lifetime naturals


Dave D

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2018, 11:58:04 AM »
They are adjustable to your height but once you are locked in the weight only moves in the fixed direction of the cam.  Take 2 identical twins and train one on machines only and the other on free weights only for 90 days.  Then switch the training programs and you will see the twin who trained on free weights for the first 90 days will be stronger in both lifts (the machine and free weight squats) and the twin who did only machine work the first 90 days will be significantly weaker.

I always ask for examples of a professional NFL or NHL team that uses primarily machines for their strength training programs because none exist.  Why is this so?  If machines made athletes so much stronger why wouldn't a strength coach train his athletes that way?

I cant speak for NHL but I know for a fact most NFL and NCAA football strength coaches rely on machines to build and maintain strength during the season and to rehabilitate injury, which was of  pellius's points.


Humble Narcissist

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2018, 12:20:48 PM »
I cant speak for NHL but I know for a fact most NFL and NCAA football strength coaches rely on machines to build and maintain strength during the season and to rehabilitate injury, which was of  pellius's points.


Sometimes machines are used but not the primary weights used.  Just look at any NFL or college weight room they are overwhelming free weights.  The machines are usually used for rehabbing injuries.

Dave D

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2018, 12:25:04 PM »
Sometimes machines are used but not the primary weights used.  Just look at any NFL or college weight room they are overwhelming free weights.  The machines are usually used for rehabbing injuries.

Yup. That's what I said. 

The collegiate level is a little different, as the competition and size/strength level of elite athletes is superior to most opponents. They can train for maximum strength.

I know for most NFL teams maintaining strength, rehabilitation and injury prevention is the primary focus and that's why there are machined used almost exclusively in season.

pellius

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2018, 12:29:17 PM »
They are adjustable to your height but once you are locked in the weight only moves in the fixed direction of the cam.  Take 2 identical twins and train one on machines only and the other on free weights only for 90 days.  Then switch the training programs and you will see the twin who trained on free weights for the first 90 days will be stronger in both lifts (the machine and free weight squats) and the twin who did only machine work the first 90 days will be significantly weaker.

I always ask for examples of a professional NFL or NHL team that uses primarily machines for their strength training programs because none exist.  Why is this so?  If machines made athletes so much stronger why wouldn't a strength coach train his athletes that way?

The idea of the cam is not about fixed or free direction but rather to provide variable resistance to match the strength curve of the joint movement.

You are incorrect in your analogy regarding twins and free weights versus machines. I did it on myself. At one point I was able to bench press 315 pounds for 7 strict reps. All the way down, touching the chest, and with a slight but distinct pause. I stopped benching for about three months doing a machine, I don't remember which one, that pretty much simulated the exact movement and picked a weight that I could do about 8 reps before failing at the 9th. I don't remember what weight but let's just say it was 200 lbs that I was using on the machine. I do remember that over that three month period I increase the resistance by about five plates for 8 reps, presumably, that was 50 lbs so let's say now I was doing 250 lbs.

When I went back to the bench press I found that I could barely eke out 4 reps. This made no sense to me. I mean, how could I have gotten weaker? I went from 200 to 250 lbs using the same muscles in pretty much the same way but now I can't bench like I use to. Anyway, that convinced me to stick to the bench press. No matter what logic told me the fact is I got weaker. Empirical evidence always trumps logic and reason.

It didn't take that long to get back my original strength performance on the bench. I was back to benching 315 for 7 reps in about five weeks. I was pretty much maxed out on the bench for my body type. I've long accepted the fact, albeit begrudgingly, that I was not built to perform great feats of strength. Then one day, maybe almost a year later, I went back to that bench machine just to mix things up a bit. Shockingly, I found that I could barely budge the 250 lbs for more than three reps! Again this made no sense to me. Did I get weaker again.

I believe that in both cases I didn't really get stronger or weaker per se but I got stronger or weaker in that particular movement. I think your body is very activity specific. Getting better, stronger, more stamina in one activity doesn't necessarily directly transfer to another. You lose that specific skill. You get "out of practice".

I always considered marathoners to be the ultimate endurance athletes. Compared to what they do, anything else, from a conditioning perspective, is a piece of cake. I remember training in BJJ with an avid marathoner. What shocked both him and myself was how winded he got. He couldn't keep up stamina wise. Now there is no way on Heaven and Earth that I could run a marathon but on the mat I made him look out of shape.

I've experienced this phenomenon, not just with weights where I would get "weaker" despite always being in training on a movement I stopped doing for a while, but also when I would switch up running stairs to running the sand hill. Or swimming versus jogging. I was able to do more for longer, or less for shorter, not necessarily because my conditioning improved or diminished. I was always in training and always in top shape. But because I simply got better or worse in that particular movement.

The legendary wrestler, Dan Gable, know for his superb conditioning and being tireless on the mat was once asked what is the best exercise to increase endurance and stamina for wrestling. He simply replied, "Wrestling".

 

Humble Narcissist

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2018, 12:37:24 PM »
The idea of the cam is not about fixed or free direction but rather to provide variable resistance to match the strength curve of the joint movement.

You are incorrect in your analogy regarding twins and free weights versus machines. I did it on myself. At one point I was able to bench press 315 pounds for 7 strict reps. All the way down, touching the chest, and with a slight but distinct pause. I stopped benching for about three months doing a machine, I don't remember which one, that pretty much simulated the exact movement and picked a weight that I could do about 8 reps before failing at the 9th. I don't remember what weight but let's just say it was 200 lbs that I was using on the machine. I do remember that over that three month period I increase the resistance by about five plates for 8 reps, presumably, that was 50 lbs so let's say now I was doing 250 lbs.

When I went back to the bench press I found that I could barely eke out 4 reps. This made no sense to me. I mean, how could I have gotten weaker? I went from 200 to 250 lbs using the same muscles in pretty much the same way but now I can't bench like I use to. Anyway, that convinced me to stick to the bench press. No matter what logic told me the fact is I got weaker. Empirical evidence always trumps logic and reason.

It didn't take that long to get back my original strength performance on the bench. I was back to benching 315 for 7 reps in about five weeks. I was pretty much maxed out on the bench for my body type. I've long accepted the fact, albeit begrudgingly, that I was not built to perform great feats of strength. Then one day, maybe almost a year later, I went back to that bench machine just to mix things up a bit. Shockingly, I found that I could barely budge the 250 lbs for more than three reps! Again this made no sense to me. Did I get weaker again.

I believe that in both cases I didn't really get stronger or weaker per se but I got stronger or weaker in that particular movement. I think your body is very activity specific. Getting better, stronger, more stamina in one activity doesn't necessarily directly transfer to another. You lose that specific skill. You get "out of practice".

I always considered marathoners to be the ultimate endurance athletes. Compared to what they do, anything else, from a conditioning perspective, is a piece of cake. I remember training in BJJ with an avid marathoner. What shocked both him and myself was how winded he got. He couldn't keep up stamina wise. Now there is no way on Heaven and Earth that I could run a marathon but on the mat I made him look out of shape.

I've experienced this phenomenon, not just with weights where I would get "weaker" despite always being in training on a movement I stopped doing for a while, but also when I would switch up running stairs to running the sand hill. Or swimming versus jogging. I was able to do more for longer, or less for shorter, not necessarily because my conditioning improved or diminished. I was always in training and always in top shape. But because I simply got better or worse in that particular movement.

The legendary wrestler, Dan Gable, know for his superb conditioning and being tireless on the mat was once asked what is the best exercise to increase endurance and stamina for wrestling. He simply replied, "Wrestling".

 
Doesn't your example prove my point?

pellius

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2018, 12:38:57 PM »
I cant speak for NHL but I know for a fact most NFL and NCAA football strength coaches rely on machines to build and maintain strength during the season and to rehabilitate injury, which was of  pellius's points.



In these discussions and debates, it is not, or should not be, an all or nothing argument. That only free weights or only machines are better. Some machines are beyond crappy and some free weight movements are not as good as a similar movement on the machines. There some great value to doing free weight movements not only for it's muscle building aspects but for the increase in real-world functional ability. The Romanian type deadlift, where both palms are facing you is a simple and very useful movement that one does on a regular basis in day to day life. Just picking something up off the floor. No machine can duplicate this movement. There may be machines that will better and more safely develop the lower back but not duplicate the proper function of picking things up off the floor.

The overhead dumbbell press is also another excellent free weight movement as you have full range movement with constant resistance as this stimulates the up and down movement of free weights due to gravity.

pellius

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2018, 12:46:19 PM »
Doesn't your example prove my point?

Absolutely not. Read it again. Never mind, it's too long.

The point is that I got stronger with the machine doing the machine and weaker in the bench from not doing it.
I then got weaker in the machine and got my strength back on the bench because I stopped doing the machine and went back to the bench.

In either case, I got neither stronger or weaker as I was always in training but that I lost the skill, the activity specific movement, from doing or not doing that particular movement. I got "out of practice" doing the bench when I stopped doing it even though my strength "increased" on another similar, but not exact, movement. Shit, I use to bang out 50 pushups like it was nothing when I was in high school. Now, since I don't do pushups, 25 is a bit tough. And my bodyweight is only about 5-10 lbs heavier now than when I was in high school and I am definitely carrying more muscle now.

Vince B

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2018, 01:16:31 PM »
Whenever this free weights vs. machines argument comes up people forget the neurological differences.  Doing squats doesn't just require strength but balance as well.  The stabilizer muscles are put to work as well and these are not activated in a fixed machine lift.  Machine lifting makes you strong for that machine but that is all.  Squatting makes you strong throughout the body.

No NFL or D1 college football teams use machines only for their strength training programs.  No NHL hockey team or any Olympic athlete in a speed or power sport lifts with machines exclusively or even a majority of their strength training.

Arthur Jones as well as any other machine maker (including Vince Basil) has a financial motive to convince people machines are superior even though there are no examples they can use to prove their theories.


Pellius is capable of logical thinking, the rest here not so much. Broscience survives on Getbig!

Coach is Back!

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2018, 01:33:45 PM »
Quick read through this while I’m at work. Don’t compare bodybuilding training to athlete training/development. It’s two completely different animals.

Coach is Back!

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2018, 01:34:46 PM »

Pellius is capable of logical thinking, the rest here not so much. Broscience survives on Getbig!

Dear Vince, kindly stfu. This is beyond you. Hope this helps

TheShape.

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2018, 01:41:09 PM »
I train with mostly free weights but I will use some machines to supplement my workout, like the leg curl and preacher curl machines. The big difference with free weights is that you have to stabilize the weight.