Gym Etiquette - Was I Wrong Here?

[bhank]

Thanks wes!!

So my workout partner has suggested that my anterior delts have been eating my chest gains, and recommended this video to correct that:

So here's my plan for this summer:

Focus on bodybuilding. It seems like Thunder's Strongest Manlet is cancelled again this summer, due to the promoters having abandoned the project because of the pandemic restrictions over the past couple of years.

So...I won't have a contest until either the Fall, if not the new year.

I do want to keep some heavy training in, so I am ready for a strength contest with minimal events-specific training, for when those contests come up [ideally, within one month, I would like to be ready].

But - in the meantime, I want to maximize my muscle gains. I will be basically doubling my calories [from literally 1,250 daily, if not less], up to 2,500 to 3,000 or more. I will also be massively increasing my water intake to 1.5 gallons daily on training days, and one gallon on non-training days.

I'm not sure if B. Hank is interested in training me, but I'd like to do a Getbig project. If you have some training the recommendations, I would follow it.

In fact, I would follow the "wes program" for the summer, to the letter, if you have one.

If I wasn't prepared to follow it perfectly, I wouldn't ask - but if you do have a program, I would follow it 100% for my cycle!

Only you can properly train you because only you knows how your body feels. If you got enough sleep enough rest if you are fully recovered and energized for your next workout. I will say general speaking bodybuilders do higher reps than strongmen or powerlifters with fuller range of motion more isolation and mind muscle connection less worying about the weight. Up your reps up your food and increase your rest. Train every other day instead of everyday focus on eating and recovering

[Matt]

No,Shoulders look really good, back and arms look good as well.

Thanks Rob!

To be honest, I am satisfied with that shot, but it's my chest which sucks [genetics]. I feel like I can overcome that genetic deficit slightly if I stay pretty lean, get in enough protein, and focus on controlled reps like wes said, and not "ego-lifting" as B. Hank said [keeping in mind, Strongman is essentially ALL ego-lifting - form doesn't matter, just lifting the weight up does].

With some specific adjustments, my pecs can look ok immediately after I get a pump. They will never be my strong point.

That all said - do you think I have some Palumboism here? Below is a picture of me at 25, compared to the other one from just a few hours ago, now at 40.

I think it's a couple of things happening - I feel like my rhomboids are a bit thicker, which actually makes my shoulders look smaller. My body composition is probably a bit different too...but overall, I feel like my physique looks more "alive" in the 2007 picture...although I can't rule out having a touch of Palumboism here.

I think we all get that age-based physique regression - whether on GH/juice, or natural.

[Matt]

Only you can properly train you because only you knows how your body feels. If you got enough sleep enough rest if you are fully recovered and energized for your next workout. I will say general speaking bodybuilders do higher reps than strongmen or powerlifters with fuller range of motion more isolation and mind muscle connection less worying about the weight. Up your reps up your food and increase your rest. Train every other day instead of everyday focus on eating and recovering

I currently train 4-5-6 days a week. I don't find that too much - muscle groups are recovered by the next time I train them specifically...but overall, I am not feeling recovered overall.

If that makes sense.

Basically, I'm still sore, but the muscle group I'm training is recovered.

I think in time, I will get back to the point of feeling recovered overall, within three days MAX, and not always feel a bit sore, and not fully recovered.

It may be an age thing - or, truthfully, it may actually be that I'm training a bit too hard.

I have been training very hard, and probably five days a week, on average.

I am confident I can handle four workouts a week...and my recovery should increase on gear and with increased calories, shouldn't it?

Is a 5-day training split ok? Or do you think it's unnecessary, and that I should just refine my training protocol?

Again - I am interested in training bodybuilding-style for my cycle.

I can put the Strongman stuff away for a 16-week cycle. The goal here is strictly aesthetic.

[Skeletor]

It's basically the only thing that has paid off.

Admittedly, I never trained legs as hard as I should have. I probably averaged a leg workout once every two weeks...something like that. Whereas everything else, I trained pretty religiously, once weekly.

Maybe it's not even that I skipped legs...but basically, if I had to skip a workout, I would have skipped legs. Do that for decades, and it explains why I was bench pressed 335x2, but only squatting 385x2.

Though, in fairness, I NEVER see anyone squatting 405+. Maybe literally once a year, in the gym. Realistically, not even once a year.

But if my max bench was 345, I should have *probably* had a max squat of 445. Something like that.

My knee valgus has always been an issue though. See how my knees buckle here:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cdm0yhpOcCU/
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CdrOfeWAutO/

^ That leg press only fits 10 plates per side [900-lb + the sled, which is probably around 110-lb]. It's probably the heaviest leg press I've ever used.

My goal is to max out that machine for a single.

I'm not going to complain if my max leg press is about 1,000 pounds, and my squat, around 405.

I can handle that.

But I will not be neglecting legs ever again, now that gyms are open for the dirty unvaccinated like myself, here in Canada.

On that note - what is your leg routine, Skeletor?

I was doing 12 sets total [4x for quads, hamstrings, and calves], but last week I did 12 sets for hamstrings, and that's when I realized that four sets per muscle group in the legs is not enough.

Though I'm not sure if I would want to do 36 sets in a leg workout...maybe 8x for quads, 8x for hamstrings, and 6x for calves - 22 sets total for legs, which would take a little over two hours.

Do you have any suggestions on that?

10 sets for quads (including squats), 8 sets hamstrings and 10 sets for calves.

[MCWAY]

I currently train 4-5-6 days a week. I don't find that too much - muscle groups are recovered by the next time I train them specifically...but overall, I am not feeling recovered overall.

If that makes sense.

It does NOT!! Dude, I don't care what you're injecting. Your training is lousy, either too often or too severe (if not both) and you are NOT eating enough quality food. Plus, it's not just your muscles that have to recover. It's your nervous systems and joints, as well.

Basically, I'm still sore, but the muscle group I'm training is recovered.

I think in time, I will get back to the point of feeling recovered overall, within three days MAX, and not always feel a bit sore, and not fully recovered.

It may be an age thing - or, truthfully, it may actually be that I'm training a bit too hard.

I have been training very hard, and probably five days a week, on average.

I am confident I can handle four workouts a week...and my recovery should increase on gear and with increased calories, shouldn't it?

Is a 5-day training split ok? Or do you think it's unnecessary, and that I should just refine my training protocol?

Again - I am interested in training bodybuilding-style for my cycle.

I can put the Strongman stuff away for a 16-week cycle. The goal here is strictly aesthetic.

So, you're increasing your calories after lamenting two weeks ago that you're were scared to death of getting "FATTER". And you're taking steroids? So much for your health concerns.

Since your body is beat all to heck, try going back to basics, as in a full-body workout for a month or two. The better your training and diet, the better your recovery will be. That also means less anabolic use. If you insist on the needles to the rump, you may as well get as much as possible, using as little as possible.

[Matt]

10 sets for quads (including squats), 8 sets hamstrings and 10 sets for calves.

Would that be 28 total sets over the course of a roughly 2-hour workout, all on the same day?

[Matt]

It does NOT!! Dude, I don't care what you're injecting. Your training is lousy, either too often or too severe (if not both) and you are NOT eating enough quality food. Plus, it's not just your muscles that have to recover. It's your nervous systems and joints, as well.

I'm not injecting anything...yet. 

 

So, you're increasing your calories after lamenting two weeks ago that you're were scared to death of getting "FATTER". And you're taking steroids? So much for your health concerns.

Since your body is beat all to heck, try going back to basics, as in a full-body workout for a month or two. The better your training and diet, the better your recovery will be. That also means less anabolic use. If you insist on the needles to the rump, you may as well get as much as possible, using as little as possible.

Isn't that the point of steroids, MCWAY? Either to:

[1] Make the same gains with less effort.

[2] Make more gains with the same effort.

[3] Make more gains with more effort. This third outcome being more likely for me, and many other serious Gym-Rats, who just do the odd, rare cycle. But more gains than I'd make simply by doing more, but without the steroids - the course you suggest I follow.

Why do you suppose anyone takes steroids, MCWAY?

Because they enhance performance! DUH!

Because - as Van Bilderass pointed out earlier in this thread - you get to the same physique level with relatively less effort.

I know FULL WELL how much - or more appropriately, how little - muscle I will gain from doing EVERYTHING you say. I could increase calories, increase water intake, refine my training perfectly, and I would - OBVIOUSLY - not make the same gains as if I do all of that [which I am prepared to do - and will do] while ALSO adding steroids.

Steroids will also allow me to be pumped and be fuller and harder all throughout the day in a way that nutrition alone simply won't get me.

It is also to make me feel "alive" - although if I have any serious mental side effects, I will simply abort my cycle, and commence PCT. Which seems unlikely, as most of the research on "roid rage" suggests that it's not the issue that the 1980's press made it out to be - though I do wonder what impact these hormones will have on my emotional state, and on my body [gains aside], but I am prepared to abort my cycle in the event of any issues, as I said.

I just expect this cycle to sort of wake me up a little - I already turn heads as it is now in a tank top, just walking around, and I expect to have some eyes on me when I go for a swim after a chest day pump.

It feels good when people are impressed with how you look - at least it does to me.

And I expect that if all goes well, this will ingrain my post-pandemic gym reopening habits - habits which I intend to keep for the rest of my life, short of the police or army literally stopping me from training at a public gym.

Do you see NO VALUE in running a cycle, MCWAY? None at all?

My doctor has basically ordered me to increase my calories - what better time to do it than on a cycle, and to both maximize my gains, and solidify those eating habits for my post-cycle training life?

The truth is - it is IMPOSSIBLE to have the same look you have on a cycle than you will have naturally, all else being equal.

Sure, I could grow to 200-lb just from eating more...but I simply will not be as full and as hard, and as pumped as I will be on juice. And I only have so much youth left, to see what my enhanced genetic potential is.

I won't be using much anyway - but I'll be using enough for it to be a noticeable visual difference in my appearance.

As for my being concerned about my health - yes, I am. I hadn't consumed any alcohol since May 22nd of last year, until just within the last week, when I drank a tall can of Budweiser [which probably costs like $5 in Canada now, lol].

If I said I was going to drink six beers every Friday night all summer, would you have the same problem with me as you do with me doing a cycle of juice? Do health-conscious people need to NEVER do anything unhealthy, even temporarily?

Furthermore - I have enough experience using sauce in my life to know I can just do this as a one-off experience for the memories [as Van said - that's why we do anything], transition back to clean training via PCT, and then just go back to normal. I will have no psychological problems going back to being a manlet - though I may walk around at 190-lb rather than 170-lb, when this is over [as I increase calories permanently, to reverse my slowing thyroid].

Is there ANY real reason why I should NEVER use juice?

joswift posted research showing that low doses of Anadrol do not lead to bad health outcomes. And THAT is the type of information I am looking for - not some George Bush Jr. "Say No To Drugs" monologue. I want more information than that - and nothing you have read has indicated to me that one one-off cycle should cause me any serious health issues.

Keep in mind, I'm talking max 750mg Sustanon weekly and max 50mg Anadrol daily during this cycle, which will be max 16 weeks.

I have done all the necessary health tests including a heart ultrasound, a lower digestive tract ultrasound, all necessary blood work [including a test I paid out of pocket for to rule out genetic autoimmune disorders], and have continually measured my resting heart rate, blood pressure, and blood sugar levels, AND I am doing this in consultation with my family physician, who routinely consults with athletes, and is a bit of an athlete himself.

AND - he stopped by two weeks ago to give me my first blood work requisition form, and he told me he was excited to see my results.

He knows me very well, and knows that I am a big-time hypochondriac [health pussy], and knows I won't go too far with this.

I have decided against taking insulin or GH, even though board treasure Van Bilderass and a separate classic Getbigger who no longer posts here both flirted with the idea of me using [either/both].

So...give me a reason not to follow through with this cycle, MCWAY. And "drugs are bad" is not an answer I would deem convincing.

Your concern has been noted - but I'm "ALL IN", my man.

[MCWAY]

I'm not injecting anything...yet. 

 

Isn't that the point of steroids, MCWAY? Either to:

[1] Make the same gains with less effort.

[2] Make more gains with the same effort.

[3] Make more gains with more effort. This third outcome being more likely for me, and many other serious Gym-Rats, who just do the odd, rare cycle. But more gains than I'd make simply by doing more, but without the steroids - the course you suggest I follow.

Why do you suppose anyone takes steroids, MCWAY?

Because they enhance performance! DUH!

Because - as Van Bilderass pointed out earlier in this thread - you get to the same physique level with relatively less effort.

I know FULL WELL how much - or more appropriately, how little - muscle I will gain from doing EVERYTHING you day. I could increase calories, increase water intake, refine my training perfectly, and I would - OBVIOUSLY - not make the same gains as if I do all of that [which I am prepared to do - and will do] while ALSO adding steroids.

Steroids will also allow me to be pumped and be fuller and harder all through the day in a way that nutrition alone simply won't get me.

And why would you want to be pumped all day? All the white guys (and some gals) I see who try to do that look like giant strawberries, in perpetuity.

Your performance sucks, by your own admission. That's what you need to fix first, prior to the anabolics.

It is also to make me feel "alive" - although if I have any serious mental side effects, I will simply abort my cycle, and commence PCT. Which seems unlikely, as most of the research on "roid rage" suggests that it's not the issue that the 1980's press made it out to be - though I do wonder what impact these hormones will have on my body, but I am prepared to abort my cycle in the event of any issues, as I said.

I just expect this cycle to sort of wake me up a little - I already turn heads as it is now in a tank top, just walking around, and I expect to have some eyes on me when I go for a swim after a chest day pump.

It feels good when people are impressed with how you look - at least it does to me.

Indeed it does, even more so when I'm cold and in regular clothes.

And I expect that if all goes well, this will ingrain my post-pandemic gym reopening habits - habits which I intend to keep for the rest of my life, short of the police or army literally stopping me from training at a public gym.

Your gyms are still CLOSED? Mine got reopened nearly two years ago (even back fully to 24-hours, no less).

Do you see NO VALUE in running a cycle, MCWAY? None at all?

My doctor has basically ordered me to increase my calories - what better time to do it on a cycle and to both maximize my gains, and solidify those eating habits for my post-cycle.

The truth is - it is IMPOSSIBLE to have the same look you have on a cycle than naturally, all else being equal.

Sure, I could grow to 200-lb just from eating more...but I simply will not be as full and as hard, and as pumped as I will be on juice

I won't be using much anyway - but Ill be using enough for it to be a noticeable difference in my visual appearance.

Does that mean you're going to feel "dead" when you have to cease your anabolic cycle. What happens when those gains go bye-bye, especially knowing that you have obtain them....AND KEPT THEM...without the sauce?

As for my being concerned about my health - yes, I am. I hadn't consumed any alcohol since May 22nd of last year, until just within the last week, when I drank a tall can of Budweiser [which probably costa like $5 in Canada now, lol].

If I said I was going to drink six beers every Friday night all summer, would you have the same problem with me doing a cycle of juice? Do health-conscious people need to NEVER do anything unhealthy, even temporarily?

Furthermore - I have enough experience using sauce in my life to know I can just do this as a one-off, transition back to clean training via PCT, and then just go back to normal.

Is there ANY real reason why I should NEVER use juice?

joswift posted research showing that low doses of Anadrol do not lead to bad health outcomes. And THAT is the type of information I am looking for - not some George Bush Jr. "Say No To Drugs" monologue. I want more information than that - and nothing u have read has indicated to me that one one-off cycle should cause me any serious health issues

Keep in mind, I'm talking max 750mg Sustanon weekly and max 50mg Anadrol daily, during this cycle, which will be max 16 weeks.

I have done all the necessary health tests including a heart ultrasound, a lower digestive tract ultrasound, all necessary blood work [including a test I paid out of pocket for to rule out genetic autoimmune disorders], and have continually measured my resting heart rate, blood pressure, and blood sugar levels, AND I am doing this in consultation with my family physician, who routinely consults with athletes, and is a bit of an athlete himself.

AND - he stopped by two weeks ago to give me my first blood work requisition form, and he told me he was excited to see my results.

He knows me very well, and knows that I am a big-time hypochondriac [health pussy], and knows I won't go too far with this.

I have decided against taking insulin or GH, even though board treasure Van Bilderass and a separate classic Getbigger who no longer posts here both flirted with the idea of me using either/both.

So...give me a reason not to follow through with this cycle, MCWAY. And "drugs are bad" is not an answer I would deem convincing.

Your concern has been noted - but I'm "ALL IN", my man.

I already gave you the reason. And it has nothing to do with "drugs are bad". Anyone with legitimate health concerns should be wary of anabolic use. Like any other drugs, they should be used with caution and only when absolute necessary. Other than your IMPATIENCE and the Randy-Orton-style voices in your head, your situation and the gains you seek does not necessitate the use of steroids.

And since you haven't started them yet, you'd be best served to get every thing else right first. Per your own words, you still don't feel recovered, which probably means your joints and/or nervous system needs a breather.

Nobody is going to be following you around town, hiding in the bushes with calipers, and calculating your bodyfat every 30 minutes.

[Skeletor]

Would that be 28 total sets over the course of a roughly 2-hour workout, all on the same day?

Closer to 1hr 30-40 minute range.

[Matt]

MCWAY, part of the reason why I don't do everything perfectly is because I have done everything perfectly.

And it SUCKS.

And that's why I don't want to pursue natural bodybuilding. All that extra eating and extra drinking water, and all that subsequent extra shitting and pissing - all for what? To not even look like you work out, in street clothes?

There is a reason why I pursued natural Strongman - because it is one area that you can make gains from one workout to the next, just from training hard, and eating healthy. If not even eating on the light side - caloric restriction being amazing for overall health and longevity.

Simply put, MCWAY - I don't WANT to put in all the effort needed to train naturally for bodybuilding. Even if I did everything right for 18 months, I would still look like nothing much.

And THAT is really why ANYONE uses steroids - to make the same gains, faster.

I can HANDLE training, eating, and being hydrated PERFECTLY for 16 weeks. NO PROBLEM. I have ZERO interest in applying those same principles for 18 months to make the same gains. I simply don't EVER want to do that long-term.

I want to get to a physique level that may well be possible naturally, but WITHOUT spending 18 damn months applying the principles. I have no interest in pursuing natural bodybuilding for that length of time.

I loathe the nutrition aspect of the workout culture. I love the training, and that is why natural Strongman was suitable for me - because you can achieve that with hard training, but without eating like crazy and taking three shits a day, and chronically taxing your biological processes.

I want the results in 16 WEEKS, MCWAY - not 16+ months.

Again...you know...the same reason why ANYONE uses steroids.

I already gave you the reason. And it has nothing to do with "drugs are bad". Anyone with legitimate health concerns should be wary of anabolic use. Like any other drugs, they should be used with caution and only when absolute necessary. Other than your IMPATIENCE and the Randy-Orton-style voices in your head, your situation and the gains you seek does not necessitate the use of steroids.

And since you haven't started them yet, you'd be best served to get every thing else right first. Per your own words, you still don't feel recovered, which probably means your joints and/or nervous system needs a breather.

Nobody is going to be following you around town, hiding in the bushes with calipers, and calculating your bodyfat every 30 minutes.

By that logic - why would ANYONE use steroids?

Are you implying that only those who have absolutely maxed out their natural bodybuilding potential should use steroids for bodybuilding reasons? Oh COME ON, MCWAY - WHO does that? Who??

I have trained hard enough, and know what I'm doing enough, to deserve a one-off cycle.

This allows me to have a quick-in, quick-out, and be ready for Strongman again, be it in the new year, or possibly even in the Fall.

I could train bodybuilding style, but I prefer training for strength. Again, it allows me to not have to eat so much and shit so much, but still train hard.

Do you think any 170-lb lifter is bench pressing 315-lb for reps who doesn't know how to train properly?

And I DO know how to eat properly, but have no interest in doing that for months on end, to achieve the same gains.

I'd rather just do everything right, eat sufficiently for this one lone cycle, get an idea of what I can do if I did choose to focus on bodybuilding, and just go back to training for strength.

Again - why does anyone use steroids? And again - do you think the only people who use steroids needs to max out their natural gains first? I fail to see why that is necessary.

Lastly - as I mentioned, I feel recovered for the muscle group I am training, always.

But day to day, I still feel sore in some of the muscle groups I train - but I think that's because I went back to strength training post-pandemic.

For example, I was back to deadlifting 405-lb within three deadlift workouts. I wanted to get that to 495-lb before doing a cycle, but...meh...again, is it absolutely necessary to max out before using?

As long as I settle around a 495 DL once this is all said and done, that's fine. I did lose two years in the gym, after all. And yes, MCWAY - gyms were closed for over 500 days where I am under the "Conservative" government we have in Ontario.

So I guess I am in a little bit of a rush because of that.

Anyway...back to your comment on not being recovered - I think you are right. It could just be an age thing. Or just from jumping back into heavy training too quickly. Generally, I feel that my heavy legs workouts and heavy back workouts take a while to recover from, and if I train them both heavy in a week, I have perpetual soreness.

Realistically, I should not be training both for max lifts in the same week.

I should do one heavy back workout one week, then one heavy legs workout the next week. And then, I'd probably feel more recovered, faster.

I do think that in time, I will recover faster - back to my historical pace. But your comment on my recovery has been noted - and yes, I should probably curtail my workout intensity somewhat, in order to accomplish that. I am not one to throw in a lot of junk volume - I don't worry too much about being fast between sets, but when I do get to my sets, I make them count, and consistently train to failure in at least 50% of my sets [the other sets being warmup sets].

Your comments are noted - but I do know what I'm doing. I just don't want to eat constantly and shit constantly. But I do want to do it for this one lone cycle.

[Matt]

Closer to 1hr 30-40 minute range.

That sounds doable - my legs workout is tomorrow, Skeletor. I will send your posts his way, and give it a try tomorrow. I'll post my results on it after that.

Thanks.

[Matt]

Hey guys, MCWAY says I shouldn't do the cycle.

He seems to be saying that steroids should only be done if they absolutely must be done. As in...only if you maxed out your natural genetics, presumably?

IMO, one need not do that. How many people who have used steroids could possibly say that they maxed out their natural potential? That seems unrealistic.

That said, I am open-minded. Should I cancel my cycle plans until I have 100% maxed out my natural genetics. So...wait until I'm 45 to run a modest one-off cycle, if I ever end up doing it at all?

Discuss.

[GymnJuice]

Hey guys, MCWAY says I shouldn't do the cycle.

He seems to be saying that steroids should only be done if they absolutely must be done. As in...only if you maxed out your natural genetics, presumably?

IMO, one need not do that. How many people who have used steroids could possibly say that they maxed out their natural potential? That seems unrealistic.

That said, I am open-minded. Should I cancel my cycle plans until I have 100% maxed out my natural genetics. So...wait until I'm 45 to run a modest one-off cycle, if I ever end up doing it at all?

Discuss.

That's your decision dude. Don't have getbig decide something like that for you. You aren't asking for opinions on a hairstyle.

That said if I were in your shoes I wouldn't take anything. I don't think your mentality is right for it. Lots of people care about long term health but not too many restrict calories to 1200 who aren't obese.  Just eat more clean foods and do some Bicep work. Your back looks fine I think your biceps look flat but maybe it's just the angle. You don't need it for strongman i guess but if your considering using steroids just to improve looks that's where I'd start.

[wes]

That's your decision dude. Don't have getbig decide something like that for you.

^^^^THIS

[Grape Ape]

LOL 16 pages of talking about doing a cycle to battle the government then gives pause because one anonymous dude mentions he shouldn't.

[wes]

LOL 16 pages of talking about doing a cycle to battle the government then gives pause because one anonymous dude mentions he shouldn't.

We are talking Mr. Matt C. here are we not?  LOL 

[MCWAY]

Hey guys, MCWAY says I shouldn't do the cycle.

He seems to be saying that steroids should only be done if they absolutely must be done. As in...only if you maxed out your natural genetics, presumably?

Ummm.....NOOO!!! What I said was:

1) The gains you seek don't require anabolics. I pointed that out first and foremost, when you voiced concerns about your health. You appear to be more terrified of eating more beef and eggs than you are of injecting steroids.

2) Your training protocol is AWFUL, regardless of whether or not you're using anabolics.

3) Until you actually start using them, you'd be best served to return to basics and let your joints and nervous system recover properly. And, your diet needs major adjustment.

4) In the event you actually get your diet and training straight, you'll get EVEN MORE out of the anabolics (likely requiring minimal usage of such for the modest gains you seek).

Obviously, you can put on muscle, if you compete as a strongman. As long as you diet gradually and don't overtrain, keeping that muscle shouldn't be an problem. Your issue isn't that you can't do it without steroids. It's that you can't do it.....AS QUICKLY.....without steroids (Again, that's impatience and the Orton voices in your head).

[Titus Pullo]

Matt,

You're a sucker for details, right?

So, indulge us: what does your training look like now?  Split, sets, exercises, reps, do you typically train to or near failure, etc.

Also, you're always banging on about your pec development, so be particularly specific about what you're doing there.  For example, does a typical set of bench press take less than thirty seconds to complete?  Do you ever pause reps at the bottom?  Do you do parallel dips with extra weight?

You've demonstrated that, yes, you're no dummy when it comes to training for good, even great numbers (and not just relative to your bodyweight -- 315*8 is strong, period.  I was north of 220 before I could do that (!)).  And I dare say that should have plenty of carry over enough to say you understand how to induce hypertrophy.

That said, after watching some of your clips, it looks like you're not _maximizing_ your training to grow, by a long shot.  Part of that is eating like a bird, yes; however, there's probably a shit load of things you can do in the gym to get bigger without running anything.

On that note, I sense you've talked yourself into a cycle, so do one.  You know you're on the spectrum, and if you do not follow through, the way your noggin works, you might obsess for years over what "could have been."

Just keep it simple, ok?  No tren, no halo.  Have PCT lined up well in advance, and follow Mcway's advice...have your training and eating down to a tee, then do your cycle.

[Matt]

Ummm.....NOOO!!! What I said was:

1) The gains you seek don't require anabolics. I pointed that out first and foremost, when you voiced concerns about your health. You appear to be more terrified of eating more beef and eggs than you are of injecting steroids.

2) Your training protocol is AWFUL, regardless of whether or not you're using anabolics.

3) Until you actually start using them, you'd be best served to return to basics and let your joints and nervous system recover properly. And, your diet needs major adjustment.

4) In the event you actually get your diet and training straight, you'll get EVEN MORE out of the anabolics (likely requiring minimal usage of such for the modest gains you seek).

Obviously, you can put on muscle, if you compete as a strongman. As long as you diet gradually and don't overtrain, keeping that muscle shouldn't be an problem. Your issue isn't that you can't do it without steroids. It's that you can't do it.....AS QUICKLY.....without steroids (Again, that's impatience and the Orton voices in your head).

But I told you - I have no intention to eat masses of calories on the regular, and follow the bodybuilding diet protocol.

I have followed a perfect diet program probably for long stretches before - yes, one can make progress bodybuilding naturally. But basically at a snail's pace.

I know exactly what it means to follow a proper bodybuilding diet. My training could be improved, but I am training for strength, and not for lean muscle tissue. So my training is appropriate for what I do. I am pretty competitive in my weight class, and beat the guy who placed 3rd in the u-80kg Canadian Nationals last year [twice, in fact].

I am certain that I would be top 10 nationally in my weight class - so my training is appropriate for what I do.

But ultimately, I know how to train for bodybuilding, and I know how to eat for bodybuilding. I have no interest in doing this for 18 months to get to the same level I could get in 16 weeks from doing the same stuff using minimal juice.

Is there ANY part of that you don't understand? Again - I have no interest in employing those nutritional techniques for 18 months to get to the same level. And it wouldn't even be the same level - the fullness, the pumps, and the look from gear is unlikely to be replicated. I could be the same weight and possibly close to the same body composition, but the pumps and overall feeling would not be the same.

I have enough experience training, and enough time following a proper diet for extended periods of time to know that it won't be the same.

Also - my motivation will taper off if I train naturally, since gains will be at a snail's pace. That is why, you know, 100 PERCENT OF COMPETITIVE BODYBUILDERS AND STRONGMEN, INCLUDING LIGHTWEIGHTS AND FITNESS MODELS USE JUICE, and all that.

I can keep the motivation to eat and train perfectly for 16 weeks. To drink 500mL water every two hours all day long. To wake up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. To tax my pancreas and organ integrity by eating more protein and overall calories, etc.

I have NO MOTIVATION to do this for 18 months for the same gains.

Do you not grasp why people use steroids? They do it, as Van Bilderass said, to get to the same physique level faster.

Again - I have zero interest following your bro diet protocol for 18 months. I have zero interest in even LOOKING like I would on such a protocol, because to me, it's not worth it to eat like that long-term. And it's even questionable if I could look like that at all at 40.

But ultimately what I'm saying is - I have no intention or desire to spend 18 months to achieve the same look I can naturally, that I can also achieve from one paltry cycle, in less than a quarter of that time.

I have no desire to cook chicken breasts and potatoes, drink a gallon or more or water a day, and be in the bathroom pissing and shitting all day for over a year, to get the same look - and it wouldn't even BE the same look, as my waist would be wider, and the pumps wouldn't be as good.

Again, that is why ANYONE uses steroids - to get the same look faster.

Why the fuck would I bulk up to 200-lb over the course of a year and a half, get out of my competition weight class, miss contests that I'm scheduled to compete in, to pursue bodybuilding, when I am NOT A BODYBUILDER?

I can do this now, and be back to 175-180 to compete in Strongman by the new year. I'm not going to miss Strongman contests to pursue natural bodybuilding, and to probably get WEAKER in the process.

That's not in line with my goals at all.

As for my training protocol being awful - how about you post a video bench pressing 250 for 18 reps at 170, MCWAY?

In fact, go ahead and post a video of that with an 80-lb body weight advantage on me - and then you can tell me about my "AWFUL" training protocol.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CeldRFRAoOS/

[Matt]

Looks like I beat both of them on bench press. So please, MCWAY - your allegations of my training being awful are unfounded.

I could lower my weight, clean up my form, engage a mind-muscle connection and do slow and controlled reps, and I would improve, but ultimately my deficit is in nutrition/overall calories [at least if we're talking bodybuilding].

I could pay the best coach in the world, and I can't fathom my training would improve over any bodybuilding routine that I could program for myself.

I know exactly what I need to do to maximize my potential. I know what I need to do for nutrition, and I know what I need to do for training. I know my stuff.

But again - I have no interest in eating chicken and broccoli and chugging back protein shakes all day for over a year to make the same gains I will make from doing juice for the summer and that same level of eating.

Nor do I have any interest in maintaining that physique in the long-run - years ago I realized: I like the training, but I can't stand the eating and constant shitting. And that meant not having a physique that I'd like to have, at the benefit of not having spent the past 20 years eating chicken and broccoli and drinking shakes day in and day out for years.

I wasn't willing or interested in doing that, and in not willing to do that now.

I am willing to do it for the summer though, with juice, and follow a perfect bodybuilding program during that time. I'm just not a fan of bodybuilding nutrition. I am always dedicated to training hard.

Also, since I intend to compete at 176-lb again anyway, I can't be 200-lb over the next contest season, and I have no intention to go up a weight class.

[wes]

JESUS CHRIST ALMIGHTY MATT, SHIT OR GET OFF THE POT !

 

[Matt]

Matt,

You're a sucker for details, right?

So, indulge us: what does your training look like now?  Split, sets, exercises, reps, do you typically train to or near failure, etc.

Sure, Titus:

I train 4-5-6 days a week. Usually it ends up being 4-5, but it's gone to six a couple of times.

I train each muscle group once per week. Although I currently do not train abs, and I mostly skip calves.

I do 12 total sets - four sets of three exercises. The first two sets are essentially warmup sets, and the next two sets are heavy sets. I train to failure on these two sets [and I know the research on that - but I prefer training to failure, as I can always judge failure].

I have a very "bro" split, along these lines:

Monday: chest.
Tuesday: back.
Wednesday: shoulders.
Thursday: biceps/triceps.
Friday: legs.
Sat/Sun: off.

^ Pretty close to that, unless my training partner has to cancel for some reason, in which case that schedule changes somewhat.

Also, you're always banging on about your pec development, so be particularly specific about what you're doing there.  For example, does a typical set of bench press take less than thirty seconds to complete?  Do you ever pause reps at the bottom?  Do you do parallel dips with extra weight?

I would say my sets last about 30-60 seconds. So - I just do the set and finish it, and don't focus on the slow controlled bodybuilding technique.

I have paused at the bottom for, say for instance, 225x10 bench press, full second pause at the bottom - but I did that for strength building purposes. But...same idea. I have done that before - but it's not a regular thing.

I have done dips before, but never weighted dips - save for possibly a couple of exceptions, but I forget. I am open to trying anything effective though.

You've demonstrated that, yes, you're no dummy when it comes to training for good, even great numbers (and not just relative to your bodyweight -- 315*8 is strong, period.  I was north of 220 before I could do that (!)).  And I dare say that should have plenty of carry over enough to say you understand how to induce hypertrophy.

Thank you, Titus. In order to learn, I want to remain humble - but for MCWAY to say my training is "AWFUL"...nah. I trained for lightweight strength competition, and did so pretty effectively. And as you say, I have the knowledge to carry that over to hypertrophy.

I am by no means the best trainee ever - but I've been a dedicated and focused gym rat for years, and have had some level of success in my weight class for strength where I live.

I am absolutely confident that with the correct guidance, that I have the necessary dedication to maximize gains I would make on a cycle. And I know I can eat a proper BODYBUILDING diet during my cycle. I'm certain.

That said, after watching some of your clips, it looks like you're not _maximizing_ your training to grow, by a long shot.  Part of that is eating like a bird, yes; however, there's probably a shit load of things you can do in the gym to get bigger without running anything.

On that note, I sense you've talked yourself into a cycle, so do one.  You know you're on the spectrum, and if you do not follow through, the way your noggin works, you might obsess for years over what "could have been."

Just keep it simple, ok?  No tren, no halo.  Have PCT lined up well in advance, and follow Mcway's advice...have your training and eating down to a tee, then do your cycle.

No Halotestin...interesting . Another knowledgeable person has told me that Halo is faked a lot. So I will keep that in mind.

For me, the main deficit is caloric - but you are absolutely correct that I can clean up my form for bodybuilding, and improve gains there.

And I am 100% willing to do the slow and controlled reps, with a mind-muscle connection, with perfect form and reduced weight.

One thing about me is that I have an instinct to always going back to heavy [for me] weight. So I think it's going to take me two weeks of forcing myself on a bodybuilding program for those habits/techniques to set.

But I can do it - and I'm absolutely dedicated to doing it.

And you are right - if I don't follow through, I will wonder about it forever!

Thank you for the suggestions, Titus - any other tips, please let me know. You know - I can't recall being this excited to start a training program since I was maybe 21, and only 2-3 years into training.

[Matt]

JESUS CHRIST ALMIGHTY MATT, SHIT OR GET OFF THE POT !

 

I plan to. 

I disagree with MCWAY.

I mean, who gives a fuck about one lone cycle? Maybe I'm just impatient - but I've had such a lousy two years, that I just want to make progress fast.

Maybe that's what it's mainly about.

So now that it's settled, and I went for my final blood test on Monday, I will be starting my cycle - I will keep quiet about it until I know I will follow through completely, and then post about it later.

So after today, you won't hear back from me until at least a fed needles have been in my ass. 

[wes]

I plan to. 

I disagree with MCWAY.

I mean, who gives a fuck about one lone cycle? Maybe I'm just impatient - but I've had such a lousy two years, that I just want to make progress fast.

Maybe that's what it's mainly about.

So now that it's settled, and I went for my final blood test on Monday, I will be starting my cycle - I will keep quiet about it until I know I will follow through completely, and then post about it later.

So after today, you won't hear back from me until at least a fed needles have been in my ass. 

I`m just fucking around but pretty soon this thread will resemble the Ronnie vs. Dorian thread....epic proportions of peace.

Good luck dude.......train hard.

[MCWAY]

But I told you - I have no intention to eat masses of calories on the regular, and follow the bodybuilding diet protocol.

I have followed a perfect diet program probably for long stretches before - yes, one can make progress bodybuilding naturally. But basically at a snail's pace.

I know exactly what it means to follow a proper bodybuilding diet. My training could be improved, but I am training for strength, and not for lean muscle tissue. So my training is appropriate for what I do. I am pretty competitive in my weight class, and beat the guy who placed 3rd in the u-80kg Canadian Nationals last year [twice, in fact].

If you're making progress at a "snail's pace", your diet is anything BUT perfect....at least for you.

For me, when I ditched the so-called perfect diet of chicken breasts, egg whites, and rice and went with beef and eggs and whole milk, business picked up. The gains I once thought I needed anabolics to achieve I was able to obtain without them.

I am certain that I would be top 10 nationally in my weight class - so my training is appropriate for what I do.

But ultimately, I know how to train for bodybuilding, and I know how to eat for bodybuilding. I have no interest in doing this for 18 months to get to the same level I could get in 16 weeks from doing the same stuff using minimal juice.

Is there ANY part of that you don't understand? Again - I have no interest in employing those nutritional techniques for 18 months to get to the same level. And it wouldn't even be the same level - the fullness, the pumps, and the look from gear is unlikely to be replicated. I could be the same weight and possibly close to the same body composition, but the pumps and overall feeling would not be the same.

I have enough experience training, and enough time following a proper diet for extended periods of time to know that it won't be the same.

Also - my motivation will taper off if I train naturally, since gains will be at a snail's pace. That is why, you know, 100 PERCENT OF COMPETITIVE BODYBUILDERS AND STRONGMEN, INCLUDING LIGHTWEIGHTS AND FITNESS MODELS USE JUICE, and all that.

I can keep the motivation to eat and train perfectly for 16 weeks. To drink 500mL water every two hours all day long. To wake up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. To tax my pancreas and organ integrity by eating more protein and overall calories, etc.

I have NO MOTIVATION to do this for 18 months for the same gains.

Do you not grasp why people use steroids? They do it, as Van Bilderass said, to get to the same physique level faster.

Again - I have zero interest following your bro diet protocol for 18 months. I have zero interest in even LOOKING like I would on such a protocol, because to me, it's not worth it to eat like that long-term. And it's even questionable if I could look like that at all at 40.

But ultimately what I'm saying is - I have no intention or desire to spend 18 months to achieve the same look I can naturally, that I can also achieve from one paltry cycle, in less than a quarter of that time.

I have no desire to cook chicken breasts and potatoes, drink a gallon or more or water a day, and be in the bathroom pissing and shitting all day for over a year, to get the same look - and it wouldn't even BE the same look, as my waist would be wider, and the pumps wouldn't be as good.

Again, that is why ANYONE uses steroids - to get the same look faster.

Why the fuck would I bulk up to 200-lb over the course of a year and a half, get out of my competition weight class, miss contests that I'm scheduled to compete in, to pursue bodybuilding, when I am NOT A BODYBUILDER?

I can do this now, and be back to 175-180 to compete in Strongman by the new year. I'm not going to miss Strongman contests to pursue natural bodybuilding, and to probably get WEAKER in the process.

That's not in line with my goals at all.

As for my training protocol being awful - how about you post a video bench pressing 250 for 18 reps at 170, MCWAY?

In fact, go ahead and post a video of that with an 80-lb body weight advantage on me - and then you can tell me about my "AWFUL" training protocol.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CeldRFRAoOS/

It's been decades, since I weighed 170 lbs. And I have no intentions of being that weight ever again.

I called your training protocol "AWFUL" because YOU said you were feeling beat up and not fully recovered. And who said I had an 80-lb weight advantage on you? I didn't. That would put me at 250, which I haven't weighed in over FIFTEEN YEARS!!

And why are you stuck on this "18 months" thing? You're basically stating that, despite knowing how to eat and train perfectly, it will take you NEARLY SIX TIMES AS LONG to get the modest gains you seek without steroids as it would with them.

That's a bit of a stretch!