Author Topic: Dorian Yates kicks Ronnie's ass Hulkster is a punk Bitch and fuck any truce  (Read 3492450 times)

carvedoutofwood

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12075 on: November 06, 2006, 07:02:53 AM »
I give Yates the side tricep and ab/thigh. Coleman wins everything else.

i agree, but barely... and yes coleman wins everything else in addition to the sim. round
The one thing that does bother me about Coleman in 99 is the abdominal distention....looks like crap.



i also agree, but thats why he loses the abb and thigh... but he's genuinly better in every other conceivable way... even his calves hold up pretty well from the back

carvedoutofwood

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12076 on: November 06, 2006, 07:07:38 AM »
another thing these screen caps confirm is that ronnie owns the greatest arms of all time... lee cant touch 99 ronnie... not even close... anyone who says dif is a ronnie hater... maybe lee has better tricep seperation, but other then that ronnie is outta control... garden hose sized veins

pumpster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12077 on: November 06, 2006, 07:08:45 AM »
Quote
The one thing that does bother me about Coleman in 99 is the abdominal distention....looks like crap
Not much of a difference from Yates' structurally wide waist, more prominent obliques and some distension of his own. In this condition, their distention's not a big factor.

nicorulez

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12078 on: November 06, 2006, 07:36:53 AM »
These new pics widen the disparaties and further discredit your fence sitting. Your position should be all the clearer now but instead you're mired in obfuscations. Your central position in this thread should be prominent, and never is. Did you vote for Kerry?

I could do the same as you and employ 5 paragraphs basically saying "then on the other hand"...seriously dude grow some balls. ;D

I voted for Bush and would never vote for Kerry.  Kerry is a douch bag.  However, I agree that Ronnie looks better.  I have never denied that.  However, in Sucky's and ND's defense, I don't think the disparity is as great as you make it out to be.  You classify Haney as a B-tier bodybuilder.  That is asinine and every sane member on this board who appreciates bodybuilding can see that.  He was the progenitor of Dorian and Ronnie.  I prefer Ronnie; he looks and flows better.  However, to completely dismiss the other camp is ridiculous.  I am just making the point that bodybuilidng is not black and white; it is different shades of grey.  Thus, I do not find it inconceivable as you and carvedoutofbutter seem to feel.  You are not the authority on all things bodybuilding.  Thus, while I appreciate the greatness of Ronnie at his peak and can see noone ever beating his 2003 form anytime soon (or even approached it ever); my feelings are not absolute.  Thus, you have ND and Sucky and IceCold, etc.  Now do you see my point.  I prefer Ronnie; find me one post where I state an all-time best Doz would beat an all-time best Ronnie.  However, I feel that Ronnie seriously hurt his legacy by competing this year in the condition he displayed.  Even a repeat of 2005 would have been an easy victory. 

pumpster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12079 on: November 06, 2006, 07:41:32 AM »
Quote
I don't think the disparity is as great as you make it out to be.  You classify Haney as a B-tier bodybuilder.  That is asinine and every sane member on this board who appreciates bodybuilding can see that.

The disparity's widened following the tangible proof provided by those pics that you've done absolutely nothing to discredit. You have it backwards; your words by themselves are more rhetoric.

Haney's hugely flawed given that balance is a central BB tenet and the fact that his look relies heavily on aesthetics.  Oliva, a superior BB to Haney, noticed the same thing so even if you disagree with it your dismissal of the idea shows a lack of good judgement & balanced perspective. It's obviously quite a valid observation, one that you've done precious little to disprove with evidence. Yours is only one version that is probably biased by a preference for Haney's type of physique. Haney with legitimate balance would have been a great BB. As it stands, everything other than his torso's no more than ok.

nicorulez

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12080 on: November 06, 2006, 07:58:30 AM »
The disparity's widened following the tangible proof provided by those pics that you've done absolutely nothing to discredit. You have it backwards; your words by themselves are more rhetoric.

Haney's hugely flawed given that balance is a central BB tenet and the fact that his look relies heavily on aesthetics.  Oliva, a superior BB to Haney, noticed the same thing so even if you disagree with it your dismissal of the idea shows a lack of good judgement & balanced perspective. It's obviously quite a valid observation, one that you've done precious little to disprove with evidence. Yours is only one version that is probably biased by a preference for Haney's type of physique. Haney with legitimate balance would have been a great BB.

He won eight, count them, eight Mr. Olympia's and beat Dorian.  Last I heard, he never lost on stage after 1983.  Pretty damn good if you tell me.  BTW, he beat Oliva in a Olympia when Oliva made a come back.  Regardless, my point is that your perfunctory dismissal of a six time Mr. Olympia is laughable.  I agree that Coleman is better.  He wins 80 percent of the mandatories, but to say Yate's is not even in the same ballpark is absurd.  Yates was damn good, and got in razor sharp condition.  Ronnie may be bigger and more aesthetically appealing (1998/1999), but in no way would he blow Yates off stage.  In 2003, Ronnie wins because of mass and conditioning; no question in my mind.  However, 1993 Doz vs 1999 Ronnie would be a close battle who I feel would be won by Coleman.  However, if the judges (remember those guys...not always spot on are they) voted differently it would sadden me but I would not be shocked.  Hell, Gutler won an Olympia this year; what does that tell you.  Vic adn Dex looked miles better.

nicorulez

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12081 on: November 06, 2006, 08:02:58 AM »
The man was put together quite nicely.  Not even close to being as big as Ronnie, but his quality is undeniable.  B tier bodybuilder my ass.


pumpster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12082 on: November 06, 2006, 08:04:50 AM »
Those quads have the look of someone who's been training a couple of years, and do not balance with the lat width or torso. Do not equate to greatness. Knowing this, he's employed the Arnold strategy of turning the leg to the side to increase the perceived size.

The right arm in particular's far too small for the lat width.

pumpster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12083 on: November 06, 2006, 08:09:22 AM »
One of the worst-ever MMs:

His size deficiency's exaggerated by the disproportionate size of his head.

pumpster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12084 on: November 06, 2006, 08:21:50 AM »
Haney compared to legitimately great BBs with true overall balance & size. They also have better aesthetics & structures:

pobrecito

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12085 on: November 06, 2006, 08:37:05 AM »
One of the worst-ever MMs:

His size deficiency's exaggerated by the disproportionate size of his head.

are you saying haney had a big noggin :o

suckmymuscle

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12086 on: November 06, 2006, 01:22:58 PM »
So much for Yates' supposed triceps advantage!!  ;D Yates really lacks tri size in comparison-the definition and development's skewed around the smaller side lateral & medical heads. Fools novices who ignore the size deficiency of the long head relative to Coleman:

  It doesen't really matter, because it is the lateral triceps head which is visible in this pose, and Dorian's is bigger and he wins the pose overrall due to better serratus and calves, and comparabl vastus lateralis. Funny that you think that these pics mean anything, since:

 1. Visually, Dorian is better to me - I just like the sick hardness and thickness of Dorian's muscularity. I never found the round muscled looked particularly fetching at all. As I see it, Dorian's back is both wider, thicker and harder. Dorian looks thicker from the sides than Ronnie. His waist is thicker, but his abs are more separated. The aesthetics I prefer or you prefer is irrelevant as far as a bodybuilding contest is concerned: what matters is what the judges prefer. Skeletal structure is not even officially judged. What is officially judged in the relaxed round is overrall muscularity and the symmetrical distribution of the muscles. However, the judges might reward a particular structure over another due to prefering it's aesthetics. It is subjective and what look better to you does not look better to me. Sorry, you lose. ;)

 2. Bodybuilding is not entirely subjective - There are objective crietria that must be observed while evaluating a physique. Try to understand this. Would the 1999 Coleman defeat the 1993 or 1995 Dorian in overrall muscularity? No, actually Dorian has a slight edge at that. Would she defeat him in overrall symmetry? Except when standin relaxed from the front, Dorian actually has better taper than Ronnie, and he has less symmetrical weaknesses. Ronnie's symmetrical weaknesses includes the following: no calves, large glutes, disproportional deltoid heads, a distended gut which can be seen both from the sdies and front and biceps that overpower his arms. Dorian's symmetrical liabilities are only two: bad taper in one angle from one position and small biceps for his arms. That's it. So Dorian wins or ties the muscularity round and the symmetry round. As for conditioning, Ronnie has more separations overrall, but Dorian looks harder. A mute point.

 3. Dorian is more muscular and symmetrical from most angles. Which results in him winning:

 Back double biceps - thicker back with as many separations, smaller glutes, equivalent hams and better calves.

 Rear lat spread - Their taper is equivalent, but Dorian's lats spread wider and he also has all teh symmetrical advantages elucidated above over Ronnie.

 Side tris - Thicker lateral triceps head, equivalent vastus lateralis, better serratus and cvalves.

 Abs-and-thighs - Better taper, wider lats and more separated abs/serratus. Ronnie only has an edge in quads.

 Front lat spread - Better taper and wider lats. Ronnie, again, only takes quads.

 They tie:

 Side chest - Equivalent pectoralis with, perhaps, a smalle edge to Ronnie. Regardless, Dorian has better calves and equivalent vastus lateralis.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12087 on: November 06, 2006, 01:23:08 PM »
This is where ND & SUCKY show their true colors-unable to address & accept the larger issue at hand they resort to deflections and petty name-calling.

ND is likely just hitting puberty, judging by this need to insult in lieu of content.


This is where mr conspricy theory backpeddles because he looks like an ass because he claimed that that I morphed the pic and then Flex magazine morphed the pic  ::) how does it feel being dead wrong? loser  ;)

suckmymuscle

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12088 on: November 06, 2006, 01:34:47 PM »
Sucky, from a medical standpoint you are incorrect my friend.  I agree that Dorian had that razor like condition that Ronnie approached but never exceeded.  However, Dorian did not carry more muscle.  For one, Dorian has larger joints as can be appreciated by his wrist size.  Second, although he may have been slightly drier and that is stretch (for Coleman 1999), the difference in weight would have been a pound max.  We are talking the lightest sheen of water; both have equivalent bodyfat compositions.  In fact, Ronnie may be slightly leaner as Dorian never had the etched glutes that Coleman displays.  However, if both were at 3% or so bodyfat and taking into consideration joint size; I would actually give the nod to Coleman.  Regardless, it would be a good show.  I prefer Coleman, but another can easily choose Dorian.  It is what you like and expect in a bodybuilder.  Ronnie's back is easily as wide.  It is impossible to make accurate comparisons as they did not stand side by side.  Pics in the magazines are taken from different perspective, so even if their were a perceptible difference we would not be able to tell by seeing them solo.  That is why the show is judged live and not by pics.  What Hulkster and Pumpster don't understand is that Dorian is damn good and would definitely hold his own.  As I said before, 1995 Doz vs 1999 Coleman is another apples and oranges comparison.

  Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don''t know if Dorian's skeletal structurewas bigger overrall than Ronnie's, considering that Coleman has slightly wider clavicles. Reradless, there's no question that they at least tie in overrall muscularity, but I do believe that Dorian had a slight edge. Since they were both 257 lbs and Dorian is a little shorter and came in dryer, a few pounds of overrall muscularity to Dorian is not unrealistic. Now, I do agree as far as bodyfat levels that they were roughly equivalent, but we have no way to know what their subcutaneous water level was, so I need to go with visual evidence and it tells me that Dorian wasd dryer. Regardless, at the very least, they tie.

  As for Ronnie's back, there's no way it was as wide as Dorian's. Again, since they weightd the same, this is impossible. Ronnie's quads were clearly bigger than Dorian's, so what made them weight the same could only possibly come from Dorian's wider and thickr back. I find it hard to believe that Dorian's calves made up for the size disparity! Ronnie in 2003 did have a back as wide as Dorian and durpassed him for thickess slightly, but I think that everyone from magazine publishers to experts and aficionados such as myself agree that Dorian had the greatest overrall back in the history of the sport until Coleman surpassed him for thickess and matched him for width in 2003. Ronnie's back actually looks wider than it is because his waist is smaller and his muscles rounder, giving an impression of being greater than they really are, ala Wheeler. Again ,the only way to verigy this is with the taper measurer. Don't confuse taper with lat width. Two different things. The issue here is not the differential between lat width and waist, but purely a measure of the lat width. ;)

SUCKMYMUSCLE

pumpster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12089 on: November 06, 2006, 01:37:59 PM »
SUCKY desperate to ignore the latest overwhelming evidence. He doesn't know if Yates' bones are thicker-DUH!

ND's been cast aside like wet cleanex.

suckmymuscle

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12090 on: November 06, 2006, 01:41:46 PM »
  Oh my fucking God! I just saw Dorian's pose at the 1993 Olympia. I had already seen the 1995 before, and I do think that Dorian was slightly drier. However, Dorian's combination of fullness and hardness is just from another planet! Wtf?! Wtf?! Wtf?! :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o It seem slike they got a skelton and just glued pure muscle tissue all over it! The best part is at the end, when the entire audience raises up to applaud, while screaming histerically and crying out for Dorian. Shit! The music! Unlike Hulkster, who considers Ronnie the greatest ever, I always regarded Dorian as merely in the top five. However, after seeing this, I think Dorian might have been the greatest ever. :D The sport has never, and I mean ever, seen a quality of muscularity like that. Ever! :o He's absolutely flawless from head to toe. The only time where he doesen't appear so overwhelming is when standing relaxed from the front. Seriously...this gave me goosebumps. :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :D

SUCKMYMUSCLE

pumpster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12091 on: November 06, 2006, 01:49:08 PM »
Quote
Hey, Pumpster, you moron, try to learn something for a change by reading what I have to say in this post, where I maintain the tradition of owning you again and again ad infinitum en absurdum...

Looking at those pics won't require you to strain your cognitive abilities like reading does-take a good look.

nicorulez

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12092 on: November 06, 2006, 01:58:05 PM »
Haney compared to legitimately great BBs with true overall balance & size. They also have better aesthetics & structures:

That shot of Haney was when he was 24 years old; it was 1983 or 1984.  Even today, he would kick the shit out of top level national contenders.  Deny it all you want, the man had a legit 20 inch waist and absolutely dwarfed everyone, including Dorian 1991, in upper body mass.  His legs may not have been great, but they were proportionate with good calves.  They were also well defined.  He did not even come close to having the gut of Coleman and Dorian (later years).  Those are facts Pumpster.  Disregard him if you will, but even Dorian and Ronnie respect the man.

Hulkster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12093 on: November 06, 2006, 01:59:16 PM »
Embarassing comparisons.

Ronnie is really owning Dorian in those comparison Pumpy posted.

for me, these 99 pics really end the debate.

sure, ronnie's abs were not greatest, but the rest of him was so far ahead of dorian it is unreal.

I think that is what most people are probably thinking when they view these great pics.

Flower Boy Ran Away

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12094 on: November 06, 2006, 02:00:45 PM »
another thing these screen caps confirm is that ronnie owns the greatest arms of all time... lee cant touch 99 ronnie... not even close... anyone who says dif is a ronnie hater... maybe lee has better tricep seperation, but other then that ronnie is outta control... garden hose sized veins

agreed. ND now has his foot firmly in his mouth :)

No one has had better overall arms than Ronnie 99.

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12095 on: November 06, 2006, 02:03:11 PM »
*yawn*

nicorulez

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12096 on: November 06, 2006, 02:05:50 PM »
  Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don''t know if Dorian's skeletal structurewas bigger overrall than Ronnie's, considering that Coleman has slightly wider clavicles. Reradless, there's no question that they at least tie in overrall muscularity, but I do believe that Dorian had a slight edge. Since they were both 257 lbs and Dorian is a little shorter and came in dryer, a few pounds of overrall muscularity to Dorian is not unrealistic. Now, I do agree as far as bodyfat levels that they were roughly equivalent, but we have no way to know what their subcutaneous water level was, so I need to go with visual evidence and it tells me that Dorian wasd dryer. Regardless, at the very least, they tie.

  As for Ronnie's back, there's no way it was as wide as Dorian's. Again, since they weightd the same, this is impossible. Ronnie's quads were clearly bigger than Dorian's, so what made them weight the same could only possibly come from Dorian's wider and thickr back. I find it hard to believe that Dorian's calves made up for the size disparity! Ronnie in 2003 did have a back as wide as Dorian and durpassed him for thickess slightly, but I think that everyone from magazine publishers to experts and aficionados such as myself agree that Dorian had the greatest overrall back in the history of the sport until Coleman surpassed him for thickess and matched him for width in 2003. Ronnie's back actually looks wider than it is because his waist is smaller and his muscles rounder, giving an impression of being greater than they really are, ala Wheeler. Again ,the only way to verigy this is with the taper measurer. Don't confuse taper with lat width. Two different things. The issue here is not the differential between lat width and waist, but purely a measure of the lat width. ;)

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Good point Sucky, at 257 it is very possible that Dorian was wider at the clavicles.  However, I was taking into consideration the shoulder to waist differential and that may be where the illusion is.  Regardless, and at least you acknowledge this, it would be close.  Pumpster seems to think that Dorian would not stand a chance.  I call utter BS on that statement.  Now, regarding 2003 Ronnie, he really did take size to another level that year.  Must have been tough, as he never duplicated that condition again.  I have the DVD and he really is sick.  The split on the floor MM is the sickest shot of any bodybuilder I have ever seen.  However, Dorian of 1993 would have battled to no end.  I believe Coleman would triumph, but hey, I am not a judge.  Obviously, Pumpster is the official IFBB judge as he has basically stated that the last two prior Mr. Olympia's before Ronnie were garbage.  ::) ::)  Moreover Pumpster, I may be relatively neutral, but I do it out of respect for both bodybuilders.  Dorian is ridiculed by you guys, but he was really quite awesome in the early 1990's.  Later, he became a morphed shadow of his former self, but didn't that happen to Ronnie also???

Hulkster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12097 on: November 06, 2006, 02:07:27 PM »
Quote
As for conditioning, Ronnie has more separations overrall, but Dorian looks harder

other than dorian's lower back and abdominals, (notice: Ronnie did have fantatic serratus in 99) does he really look harder?

Pesonally, I think the "dorian makes ronnie look soft" myth has been thoroughly disproven.

show me some dorian pics that make these look soft.

I doubt you will find any.

for me, these 99 pics finally proved what I have said all along:

Dorian was not "harder" or "more dry" overall than than Ronie at his peak.

the only person I can think of that approaches this level of detail/hardness/dryness is Flex Wheeler at the 93 AC.
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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12098 on: November 06, 2006, 02:09:11 PM »
agreed. ND now has his foot firmly in his mouth :)

No one has had better overall arms than Ronnie 99.



They confrm quite clearly that Ronnie had all the balance & proportion issues I always said and he was very impressive in 1999 but you can clearly see his conditioning is off from 1998 and NOW he have really great clear pictures of Dorian Yates at his best you have nothing to work with kid.

And Lee Preists arms are better overall no questions about it.

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12099 on: November 06, 2006, 02:10:19 PM »
sorry I just could not resist! ;D

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