Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?

[Deedee]

The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (NIV, Genesis 2:7)

If you wish to go the religion route, there is no mention in the christian testatments that abortion is wrong, and gives no direction one way or another. The passage above impies that a being is alive following the taking of the first breath.

[Debussey]

Nice contradiction. 

What did you expect? He is a retard.

[BRUCE]

You are still using an opinion without backing it up. Your subjective values should mean that YOU would not have an abortion if you and a girl was a bit "unlucky". It does not mean that your subjective reasoning should apply to anybody.

Debussey disagrees with you. Debussey think that it is horrendous that you think a fetus has the right to live even if the pregnancy was unplanned and the child is unwanted. When you give reasons to back up your statements, Debussey will back up its. 

Debussey, I don't think it's that simple.  For instance, a baby in the third trimester (for me, anyway) is not the same as a baby just a number of days old - this is a massive grey area, of course.

Some babies must be aborted for medical reasons, I understand this, but I also understand too many are deprived the chance to live because of parents that have their wants placed before the rights of the child.  This is the true tragedy.

[Debussey]

The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (NIV, Genesis 2:7)

If you wish to go the religion route, there is no mention in the christian testatments that abortion is wrong, and gives no direction one way or another. The passage above impies that a being is alive following the taking of the first breath.

Thank you. Does these "convinced" lunatics ever reflect on their opinions?

[BRUCE]

The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (NIV, Genesis 2:7)

If you wish to go the religion route, there is no mention in the christian testatments that abortion is wrong, and gives no direction one way or another. The passage above impies that a being is alive following the taking of the first breath.

To clarify, do you believe a baby becomes a living person as it takes it first breath?

Or is a 6 month old baby in the womb deemed to have this status, also?

[Camel Jockey]

This is an horrendous post, why you believe a baby in a womb has less right to live than it's mother does to destroy it is beyond me.

A child does not belong to anyone, it's a living being in its own right.

A 4 to 10 week fetus is an individual child right...  

The thing is that the mother will have to raise the child. She'll bear the burden, not you. If you want abortion to be illegal then why don't come up with a solution for unwanted babies?

[Cap]

I remember being told once that the Chinese consider a new born to be 9 months old.  Hope this helps stir debate.

[Camel Jockey]

The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (NIV, Genesis 2:7)

If you wish to go the religion route, there is no mention in the christian testatments that abortion is wrong, and gives no direction one way or another. The passage above impies that a being is alive following the taking of the first breath.

HAHA

Deedee layeth the smacketh down on mightymouse!

[BRUCE]

A 4 to 10 week fetus is an individual child right...  

And herein lies the issue, at what point is it a child to you?

I couldn't care less how much someone is inconvenienced if a child is being killed, neither should you.

[BRUCE]

One thing I don't understand is why these hardcore Anti-Abortion people seem so content starting questionable wars that cause so many deaths. 

PLEASE DON'T CALL ME A LIB FOR POSTING THIS.  I 100% SUPPORT DESTROYING REAL THREATS TO MY COUNTRY.

Maybe you should also ask why so many that are opposed to all forms of war are comfortable with women having freedom of choice to kill an unborn child in the womb.

[Debussey]

Debussey, I don't think it's that simple.  For instance, a baby in the third trimester (for me, anyway) is not the same as a baby just a number of days old - this is a massive grey area, of course.

Some babies must be aborted for medical reasons, I understand this, but I also understand too many are deprived the chance to live because of parents that have their wants placed before the rights of the child.  This is the true tragedy.

Debussey senses that you have strong feelings regarding this issue, and that is honorable. Congrats on becoming a father in the near future

Your last paragraph raises another issue: Many of these "unplanned" pregnancies is found among very young or troubled (alcohol, drugs) people. Is it right to force a baby into the world, when the mother will use drugs and alchol in the pregnancy, thereby damaging the baby? Is it OK that a child that is unwanted should be forced into birth and then receiving a very poor upbringing?

Not everybody is responsible people like you seem to be, and unwanted pregnancies often occurs among young or irresponsible people. Is it OK to force a 19 year college kid to conceive a baby when this leads to her not being able to graduate and live the life she chooses? Just because she was a bit young and irresponsible?(as we all were in those days)

Again, Debussey thinks that the individual must be allowed to decide herself. Like camel Jockey said: It is still the mother that carries the burden of an unwanted child as Debussey just wrote. Outside "judgers" never feel this burden when they claim moral superiority. It is like saying: "You should accept who you are" to a person with an ugly nose wanting a cosmetic surgery for it bad. The person getting the surgery might go against certain peoples "morals", but it is his choice and he has to carry the burden of feeling uncomfortable with himself due to the "nose complex".

Think about this: Will society really benefit from a lot of unwanted children? It will really be a burden on society, less people will get educated, and most of these kids will recieve a sup-par upbringing.

1: Religion should never be a deciding factor in this discussion. It should not even be an argument.

2: Individual opinions should never be forced upon the general population.

3: If an abortion becomes a "regulated" procedure, it leaves room for corruption, underground abortion labs, and a theft of personal freedom.

[Cap]

The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (NIV, Genesis 2:7)

If you wish to go the religion route, there is no mention in the christian testatments that abortion is wrong, and gives no direction one way or another. The passage above impies that a being is alive following the taking of the first breath.

By this logic men should give birth to women because man gave life to Eve.     The story of creation does not outline when life starts with a newborn child.  Adam was a man, not a new born child. 

[BRUCE]

Debussey senses that you have strong feelings regarding this issue, and that is honorable. Congrats on becoming a father in the near future

Your last paragraph raises another issue: Many of these "unplanned" pregnancies is found among very young or troubled (alcohol, drugs) people. Is it right to force a baby into the world, when the mother will use drugs and alchol in the pregnancy, thereby damaging the baby? Is it OK that a child that is unwanted should be forced into birth and then receiving a very poor upbringing?

Not everybody is responsible people like you seem to be, and unwanted pregnancies often occurs among young or irresponsible people. Is it OK to force a 19 year college kid to conceive a baby when this leads to her not being able to graduate and live the life she chooses? Just because she was a bit young and irresponsible?(as we all were in those days)

Again, Debussey thinks that the individual must be allowed to decide herself.

1: Religion should never be a deciding factor in this discussion. It should not even be an argument.

2: Individual opinions should never be forced upon the general population.

3: If an abortion becomes a "regulated" procedure, it leaves room for corruption, underground abortion labs, and a theft of personal freedom.

Good post, you raise some very interesting sub-issues.

I think we should be focusing on how we stop kids like you mention from becoming pregnant in the first instance.  Of course, this will still occur in some form, in which case I support the child being born and then the parent assessed on their ability to raise this child drug and violence free.  A child should not be killed on account of its parent being irresponsible, this defies logic.

We obviously have a long way to go to achieve this.

[Cap]

Damn, I don't even see Johnny Rebel fans asking to exterminate all black babies, who they would hate.  Rough crowd to convince.

The point is, contraception and abstinence are not used so birth rates increase.  Teach these morons to use the free condoms and tell the girls that if they fornicate unproctected, they will get knocked up.  Their messed up family tells them through actions that it is okay to screw and have 8 unwanted kids

[Debussey]

Good post, you raise some very interesting sub-issues.

I think we should be focusing on how we stop kids like you mention from becoming pregnant in the first instance.  Of course, this will still occur in some form, in which case I support the child being born and then the parent assessed on their ability to raise this child drug and violence free.  A child should not be killed on account of its parent being irresponsible, this defies logic.

We obviously have a long way to go to achieve this.

Debussey modified it's post a bit, you might address these in this post as well.

Debussey agrees with you on the "be realistic, forget morals for a minute" argument.

Africans die just feet away from corn silos every day because they do not have any money to buy food with. Is it morally right to give the Africans food when they are starving?? Yes, in many ways, but by doing so we are opening for the destruction of the economy.

Lets face it: people will still fuck, and they will still be irresponsible. By saying "no" to abortions the burdens on individuals and society will increase tremendously just to maintain a moralistic view of a certain group. Face it, most of these anti abortion peoples opinions would change if they came into the unfortunate situation of an unplanned pregnancy themselves. Most people would never murder, but if somebody made a death threat to their family, they would probably kill if they had to. The point is: Subjective views change when the other side is seen. This = a strong argument for keeping abortions legal.

[BRUCE]

Debussey modified it's post a bit, you might adress these in this post as well.

Should a 'sub-par upbringing' be the predecessor to us murdering a child?  Or should we give the kid a chance at life anyway?

[Camel Jockey]

They were handing out condoms fashioned after subway trains here in NY and the catholic church was outraged.   Why are religions so anti safe sex?

[Cap]

They were handing out condoms fashioned after subway trains here in NY and the catholic church was outraged.  Why are religions so anti safe sex?

As a Catholic, the church's stance on contraception is not even remotely related to church doctrine that is drawn from Divine Word  aka God.  It was a man made rule as a result of contraception.  I know many priests who ae okay with this in addition to planning around the woman's period.

[Debussey]

As a Catholic, the church's stance on contraception is not even remotely related to church doctrine that is drawn from Divine Word  aka God.  It was a man made rule as a result of contraception.  I know many priests who ae okay with this in addition to planning around the woman's period.

Morals = a dynamic concept. No true "holy" morals exist, and people will never agree. Therefore, saying abortions = wrong and then making abortions illegal = forcing one moral view upon the masses at a massive cost.

[ieffinhatecardio]

ok, i gave you my answer. God has a plan.  and i know you don't like it, but i answered.

now, answer mine. 

You didn't answer. God has a plan, isn't an answer. Need I really point that out?

[BRUCE]

They were handing out condoms fashioned after subway trains here in NY and the catholic church was outraged.   Why are religions so anti safe sex?

Condoms promote pre-martial sex, which the Catholic Church is against.

If you follow Catholocism (I don't), then you wouldn't be having sex - and thus a child - until you're prepared to.

[Cap]

Condoms promote pre-martial sex, which the Catholic Church is against.

If you follow Catholocism (I don't), then you wouldn't be having sex - and thus a child - until you're prepared to.

Not exactly true.  Abstinence before marriage is preached but the burden is placed on the woman not to have sex.  Lol.  Contraception is a fairly new thing compared to religious doctrine and the Church came up with it, not God/the Bible

[Debussey]

Should a 'sub-par upbringing' be the predecessor to us murdering a child?  Or should we give the kid a chance at life anyway?

See Debusseys post above for arguments.

Morals = subjective, you can not avoid that, because no rational standard exists. The practical implications of making abortions illegal = enormous.

A fetus = not a person. Abortion = not murder, it is a surgery. You can not prove me wrong, because proving me wrong would mean that there exists a "master morality" based on rationality. There is no such thing, morals = a fluid concepts. Debussey can claim: Religion = evil. You can not disprove me, because it is all a matter of personal interpretation.

Millions of women thinks that abortions = the only correct thing according to morals. You think the opposite. Your moral is not superior to theirs, the matter is to delicate, yet your opinion interferes with individuality (practical implication), their opinion does not.

Thus, the practical implications must weigh the most.

Debussey has shown the practical implications.

You can not win this one. You have the right to have your individual opinion, just like Gary Busey, but you can not force your opinion on others. Since your opinion is is of such nature, you can not win this discussion 

[Camel Jockey]

Condoms promote pre-martial sex, which the Catholic Church is against.

If you follow Catholocism (I don't), then you wouldn't be having sex - and thus a child - until you're prepared to.

They should consider changing their stance.

People like you and I know better. But what about people in Africa that are catholics?

[Cap]

They should consider changing their stance.

People like you and I know better. But what about people in Africa that are catholics?

Read my post and PM me to find out why I know this and why it is okay with priests.