Author Topic: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?  (Read 24794 times)

mightymouse72

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #75 on: February 21, 2007, 04:50:18 PM »
Nice answer, it sounds like you're getting so frustrated by your inability to actually debate this issue that you've resorted to saying "You have no morals in your life". LOL


Great post, without an ounce of idiotic rhetoric in it.  ::)


the response i was expecting. 

your jibberish shows you actually don't have a valid arguement, just a point someone else made.  no thoughts of your own. 
reply when you can put some thought into the question i presented to you. 


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Deedee

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #76 on: February 21, 2007, 04:55:09 PM »
Deedee, what is the excuse for young women?  Men not taking a role is not the reason for all groups of women.  That is something that goes with the values of certain groups.  It also says something about the era today.  Before the 60's, men did marry no matter what.  Men standing up the plate only goes so far.  What if I want the child and she doesn't?  How is that fair to me?

I don't think that's true. The fifties had its share of unwed mothers' homes... where women went away to have their children because they would be ostracized otherwise by their communities. Ted Bundy grew up thinking his mother was his sister. There are all kinds of tragic stories from that era.

Women have been aborting children since Cleopatra's day. In the days of yore, the woman would visit the village hedgewife, receive some herbal potion and that was that.  Similar poisons were available at the apothecary into the early 20th century.  (Could be off a little on the timeframe).  Throughout history, bastard children were shunned, and the women who had them, reviled.

I'm not giving away any personal info here because you did post it on a public forum, but will delete it if you don't want this here :) ... you once mentioned that you were seeing the friends of girlfriend for a specific reason.  What if you had gotten two of them pregnant. Would you have been capable of taking responsibility for these children?

I'm sure many of the women who have abortions feel terrible emotional turmoil over it, are frightened, and terrified of the daunting task of raising a child alone, especially if the financial means are not available. I just don't think you can possibly understand how it must be to have something growing inside of you and all you feel is terrible fear. It isn't a simple black and white issue at all.

BRUCE

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #77 on: February 21, 2007, 04:55:21 PM »
the response i was expecting. 

your jibberish shows you actually don't have a valid arguement, just a point someone else made.  no thoughts of your own. 
reply when you can put some thought into the question i presented to you. 


You'll get a lot of this from him, MM.  If he chooses to engage in petty arguments rather than discussing the topic at hand, ignore his posts.

Please keep going on this topic, I'm reading along with interest.
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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #78 on: February 21, 2007, 04:59:24 PM »
I don't think that's true. The fifties had its share of unwed mothers' homes... where women went away to have their children because they would be ostracized otherwise by their communities. Ted Bundy grew up thinking his mother was his sister. There are all kinds of tragic stories from that era.

Women have been aborting children since Cleopatra's day. In the days of yore, the woman would visit the village hedgewife, receive some herbal potion and that was that.  Similar poisons were available at the apothecary into the early 20th century.  (Could be off a little on the timeframe).  Throughout history, bastard children were shunned, and the women who had them, reviled.

I'm not giving away any personal info here because you did post it on a public forum, but will delete it if you don't want this here :) ... you once mentioned that you were seeing the friends of girlfriend for a specific reason.  What if you had gotten two of them pregnant. Would you have been capable of taking responsibility for these children?

I'm sure many of the women who have abortions feel terrible emotional turmoil over it, are frightened, and terrified of the daunting task of raising a child alone, especially if the financial means are not available. I just don't think you can possibly understand how it must be to have something growing inside of you and all you feel is terrible fear. It isn't a simple black and white issue at all.
I was wrong for making an absoult statement but 1.) men were more responsible before the 60's and 2.) a woman can control her body before preganancy so as to keep these problems from happening...it is a 2 way street

Seeing who's friends? (please specify)  Not sure what that means.  Let's put it this way.  If my current or past gf's would have gotten pregnant, I would be a man about it and support them.  If they aborted I would probably lose it on them as it would be a part of me being killed.
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mightymouse72

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #79 on: February 21, 2007, 05:02:55 PM »


I'm sure many of the women who have abortions feel terrible emotional turmoil over it, are frightened, and terrified of the daunting task of raising a child alone, especially if the financial means are not available. I just don't think you can possibly understand how it must be to have something growing inside of you and all you feel is terrible fear. It isn't a simple black and white issue at all.

you make some valid points.  no, i will never understand what it's like to have a life inside of me. 
many moons ago my girlfriend at the time had an abortion and i had NO say in the matter.  none. 
i had the feeling that i lost a child.  i felt a sense of lose, because i created a life.  and i still feel this way.  i think about my child all the time. 

this is where we differ, i do feel it's a black and white issue.  death or life. 
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BRUCE

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #80 on: February 21, 2007, 05:05:18 PM »
you make some valid points.  no, i will never understand what it's like to have a life inside of me. 
many moons ago my girlfriend at the time had an abortion and i had NO say in the matter.  none. 
i had the feeling that i lost a child.  i felt a sense of lose, because i created a life.  and i still feel this way.  i think about my child all the time. 

this is where we differ, i do feel it's a black and white issue.  death or life. 

Good post, thanks for the insight, MM.
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ieffinhatecardio

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #81 on: February 21, 2007, 05:07:55 PM »
the response i was expecting. 

your jibberish shows you actually don't have a valid arguement, just a point someone else made.  no thoughts of your own. 
reply when you can put some thought into the question i presented to you. 

Let's go over the facts again, FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME.

What will happen to the millions of unwanted babies? Who will take care of them?

Notice how you can't answer?

Notice how you don't care about answering?

This is the most valid point in this whole debate. You want to put an end to abortion, fantastic but something has to be done with the babies that are born.

YET YOU HAVE NO PLAN. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? YOU HAVE NO PLAN FOR MILLIONS OF UNWANTED BABIES.  ::)

You'll get a lot of this from him, MM.  If he chooses to engage in petty arguments rather than discussing the topic at hand, ignore his posts.

Please keep going on this topic, I'm reading along with interest.

Ouch, sounds like someone's a little sensitive from getting called on his bullschit posts.  ;D

BRUCE

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #82 on: February 21, 2007, 05:09:25 PM »
Ouch, sounds like someone's a little sensitive from getting called on his bullschit posts.  ;D

Case in point - board.
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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #83 on: February 21, 2007, 05:10:36 PM »
Let's go over the facts again, FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME.

What will happen to the millions of unwanted babies? Who will take care of them?

Notice how you can't answer?

Notice how you don't care about answering?

This is the most valid point in this whole debate. You want to put an end to abortion, fantastic but something has to be done with the babies that are born.

YET YOU HAVE NO PLAN. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? YOU HAVE NO PLAN FOR MILLIONS OF UNWANTED BABIES.  ::)
Push contraception initiatives and distribution in the ghettos and trailerparks.  These people don't have access to education anyways so ensure that children are born when they are wanted and at the time when a potential parent has established themselves.
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mightymouse72

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #84 on: February 21, 2007, 05:13:56 PM »
YOU HAVE NO PLAN FOR MILLIONS OF UNWANTED BABIES.  ::)



God does.
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ieffinhatecardio

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #85 on: February 21, 2007, 05:14:24 PM »
Push contraception initiatives and distribution in the ghettos and trailerparks.  These people don't have access to education anyways so ensure that children are born when they are wanted and at the time when a potential parent has established themselves.

What will become of the millions of unwanted babies that are born each and every year if abortion is no longer an option?

God does.

Perhaps he could fill us in then because no one else has any idea.

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #86 on: February 21, 2007, 05:17:04 PM »
What will become of the millions of unwanted babies that are born each and every year if abortion is no longer an option?
If contraception was free and more readily available than it already is, the population of unwanted children would be low.  Honestly, there are "mistakes" but that happens to couples who want kids, have tubal ligations and vasectomies.  If you coupled executing murderers and incrasing contraception usage especially among the poor and illegal comunities, we could keep a pretty stable population size.
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mightymouse72

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #87 on: February 21, 2007, 05:20:18 PM »
What will become of the millions of unwanted babies that are born each and every year if abortion is no longer an option?

Perhaps he could fill us in then because no one else has any idea.

ok, i gave you my answer. God has a plan.  and i know you don't like it, but i answered.

now, answer mine. 
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BRUCE

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #88 on: February 21, 2007, 05:22:55 PM »
ok, i gave you my answer. God has a plan.  and i know you don't like it, but i answered.

now, answer mine. 

I'd say there's plently of people out there that would love to be able to adopt these children.  Perhaps the government needs to get involved more in this process.
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Debussey

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #89 on: February 21, 2007, 05:23:58 PM »
1: Unwanted babies = a burden on the mother.

2: The mother owns the body the baby grows in.

3: A wanted + planned baby will most likely receive a better upbringing than an unwanted one.

4: The lunatics that claim teh moral consensus = "not abortion" should burn. They judge and cry, but when they themselves get an unwanted baby, they run to the abortion office.

5: "Taking responsibility" for an unwanted baby by conceiving it is just irrational morals manifested into a destructive force on ones life. There is NOTHING responsible in letting your plans for life go to hell because somebody has taught you that abortions = wrong.

6: Final point: A persons body and life is an individual thing. Abortions = freedom for women.

7: If I own a house, I decide what will and will not be accepted. The same goes for a body.

8: Everybody that disagrees with Debussey = clouded with irrationality. You can not force your morals or religion on the general society. Individuality must always go before religion.
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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #90 on: February 21, 2007, 05:27:00 PM »

6: Final point: A persons body and life is an individual thing. Abortions = freedom for women.

7: If I own a house, I decide what will and will not be accepted. The same goes for a body.



Role of the man?

Zoning restrictions?

 ;D
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BRUCE

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #91 on: February 21, 2007, 05:27:07 PM »
1: Unwanted babies = a burden on the mother.

2: The mother owns the body the baby grows in.

3: A wanted + planned baby will most likely receive a better upbringing than an unwanted one.

4: The lunatics that claim teh moral consensus = "not abortion" should burn. They judge and cry, but when they themselves get an unwanted baby, they run to the abortion office.

5: "Taking responsibility" for an unwanted baby by conceiving it is just irrational morals manifested into a destructive force on ones life. There is NOTHING responsible in letting your plans for life go to hell because somebody has taught you that abortions = wrong.

6: Final point: A persons body and life is an individual thing. Abortions = freedom for women.

7: If I own a house, I decide what will and will not be accepted. The same goes for a body.

8: Everybody that disagrees with Debussey = clouded with irrationality.

What's more important:

Being concerned for people that have to give up much of their lives to raise a child they may not have originally wanted?

OR

That child's right to not be killed in the womb?

Discuss.
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Debussey

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #92 on: February 21, 2007, 05:30:52 PM »
What's more important:

Being concerned for people that have to give up much of their lives to raise a child they may not have originally wanted?

OR

That child's right to not be killed in the womb?

Discuss.

The mothers rights must always go before the fetus.

It's her own body, and her life. A few rounds of good fucking can not change that.

Even if science claims that the fetus = alive, the mother is an evolved person, and she can do what she wants with her body.

And the main issue: Should the individuals rights or the contemporary moral consensus of society be most important? If the latter is to be true, we can also claim that "not being a Christian = illegal" because the same moral consensus must override individuality. The example might be far fetched, but it demonstrates the same mechanism.

If society starts removing individual rights because of "morals", what is next? By legally making the fetus equal to the mother, a dangerous trend can begin, where key groups percieved as being "morally superior" can start influencing society in ways we do not want them to.

And if we look beyond the moral issue here: Make abortions illegal will not stop people from performing them. It is the same as denying health care for smokers and druggies.
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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #93 on: February 21, 2007, 05:33:55 PM »
The mothers rights must always go before the fetus.

It's her own body, and her life. A few rounds of good fucking can not change that.

And the main issue: Should the individuals rights or the contemporary moral consensus of society be most important? If the latter is to be true, we can also claim that "not being a christian = illegal" because the same moral consensus must override individuality. The example might be far fetched, but it demonstrates the same mechanism.

And if we look beyond the moral issue here: Make abortions illegal will not stop people from performing them. It is the same as denying health care for smokers and druggies.
Nobody is entitled to anything.  "Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness..."

The government controls our bodies in a sense with drug laws, such as those against AAS (which through sterility can prevent unwanted children  ;D) so why is abortion different.  If we say it cannot happen, how is it different?  If the women die or get sick, I'm sorry I feel no remorse.  As a man who wants children, if my wife got a secret abortion or even just got one that would be automatic divorce in my book.  Men should have a say.
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mightymouse72

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #94 on: February 21, 2007, 05:34:24 PM »
1: Unwanted babies = a burden on the mother.  called being selfish

2: The mother owns the body the baby grows in.  no, God does

3: A wanted + planned baby will most likely receive a better upbringing than an unwanted one. your opinion, means nothing

4: The lunatics that claim teh moral consensus = "not abortion" should burn. They judge and cry, but when they themselves get an unwanted baby, they run to the abortion office.   you can't speak for ALL the "lunatics"

5: "Taking responsibility" for an unwanted baby by conceiving it is just irrational morals manifested into a destructive force on ones life. There is NOTHING responsible in letting your plans for life go to hell because somebody has taught you that abortions = wrong.  again, being selfish  abortion=murder

6: Final point: A persons body and life is an individual thing. Abortions = freedom for women. abortion=murder

7: If I own a house, I decide what will and will not be accepted. The same goes for a body.  comparing a human life to a house.    ::)

8: Everybody that disagrees with Debussey = clouded with irrationality. You can not force your morals or religion on the general society. Individuality must always go before religion.   has nothing to do with religion.  murder is wrong.  what religion do you study??
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Debussey

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #95 on: February 21, 2007, 05:41:22 PM »
1: Unwanted babies = a burden on the mother.  called being selfish

2: The mother owns the body the baby grows in.  no, God does

3: A wanted + planned baby will most likely receive a better upbringing than an unwanted one. your opinion, means nothing

4: The lunatics that claim teh moral consensus = "not abortion" should burn. They judge and cry, but when they themselves get an unwanted baby, they run to the abortion office.   you can't speak for ALL the "lunatics"

5: "Taking responsibility" for an unwanted baby by conceiving it is just irrational morals manifested into a destructive force on ones life. There is NOTHING responsible in letting your plans for life go to hell because somebody has taught you that abortions = wrong.  again, being selfish  abortion=murder

6: Final point: A persons body and life is an individual thing. Abortions = freedom for women. abortion=murder

7: If I own a house, I decide what will and will not be accepted. The same goes for a body.  comparing a human life to a house.    ::)

8: Everybody that disagrees with Debussey = clouded with irrationality. You can not force your morals or religion on the general society. Individuality must always go before religion.   has nothing to do with religion.  murder is wrong.  what religion do you study??

You use "god" as an argument. That is wrong in itself, because religion can not be forced upon the masses. Then you claim it has nothing to do with religion.

You say:  your opinion, means nothing. In other words: You are claiming that no human opinion matters, which means that you refuse to accept the basis of debate, which makes Debussey wonder: Why did you start one in the first place?
You do not back up your statements at all.

What you call selfishness = a normal human tendency. Humans want to maximize life. I prefer more money to less. I prefer better grades to bad grades. Does that makes me selfish? In your defenition: yes. Is it wrong? No. It is just being human.

The real selfishness is the arguments you present. You use your religion as an argument instead of logic, and then claim it should apply to everybody. The Muslims do the exact same thing with the exact same justification as you. How do you feel about that? Is it OK that your kids has to go to a Muslim school?

The house analogy holds true. If you are to stupid to understand the point of it, you should avoid commenting on it all together. Criticizing an exemplification instead of debating the point of it is like telling the world: I failed at school.

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BRUCE

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #96 on: February 21, 2007, 05:42:26 PM »
The mothers rights must always go before the fetus.

Even if science claims that the fetus = alive, the mother is an evolved person, and she can do what she wants with her body.

This is an horrendous post, why you believe a baby in a womb has less right to live than it's mother does to destroy it is beyond me.

A child does not belong to anyone, it's a living being in its own right.
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Debussey

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #97 on: February 21, 2007, 05:46:54 PM »
This is an horrendous post, why you believe a baby in a womb has less right to live than it's mother does to destroy it is beyond me.

A child does not belong to anyone, it's a living being in its own right.

You are still using an opinion without backing it up. Your subjective values should mean that YOU would not have an abortion if you and a girl was a bit "unlucky". It does not mean that your subjective reasoning should apply to anybody.

Debussey disagrees with you. Debussey think that it is horrendous that you think a fetus has the right to live even if the pregnancy was unplanned and the child is unwanted. When you give reasons to back up your statements, Debussey will back up its.  :)
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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #98 on: February 21, 2007, 05:48:07 PM »
Quote
2: The mother owns the body the baby grows in.  no, God does

8: Everybody that disagrees with Debussey = clouded with irrationality. You can not force your morals or religion on the general society. Individuality must always go before religion.   has nothing to do with religion.  murder is wrong.  what religion do you study??


Nice contradiction.  ::)

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Re: Who decided that the mother's "rights" outweighed the baby's rights?
« Reply #99 on: February 21, 2007, 05:49:20 PM »
Bruce vs Debussey in the Cage?  24 Hours to argue your case, one reply each?  Right?  Can we do it?

Not today, Debussey has work to do and can not spend hours on Getbig. But Debussey will accept this challenge this weekend.

Looking forward to this one Bruce, we might disagree, but Debussey might also learn a thing or two from you.

 :)

Ps: Gary Busey = God.
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