Author Topic: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????  (Read 14918 times)

Mr. Intenseone

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2007, 10:49:53 AM »
Exactly.

The actual MUSCLE only stores around 1 percent of Glycogen.   Its hillarious to think that they THINK their appearance will be any different.



I gave you an example of flat Vs. not flat!

The True Adonis

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2007, 10:51:02 AM »
I gave you an example of flat Vs. not flat!

I don`t see a difference.  Only a different Pose, some visible gyno possibly and a tan and different lighting.

Furthermore what is the time frame of the pictures?

Were you the same Bodyfat?

Sir William Idol

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2007, 10:51:28 AM »
Exactly.

The actual MUSCLE only stores around 1 percent of Glycogen.   Its hillarious to think that they THINK their appearance will be any different.



you're not reading your own statistics.  what you posted says 1% of the muscle is glycogen, not 1% of glycogen is in the muscle.  do you understand this?
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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2007, 10:52:32 AM »
are u talking looking flat in contest shape?... as it is very noticable, especialy when u find u cant get a pump whatever u do, i dont beleive u can spill over if your down to the bones of your arse, usualy an excuse for not dieting down hard enough imo

Saxon

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2007, 10:54:50 AM »
you're not reading your own statistics.  what you posted says 1% of the muscle is glycogen, not 1% of glycogen is in the muscle.  do you understand this?

What he stated was wrong at the start by saying only one percent of glycogen is stored in the muscle but because only one percent of the muscles mass is made of glycogen he is arguing that because this percentage is so small there would be no visible difference.  The second bit makes sense.

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2007, 10:55:41 AM »
you're not reading your own statistics.  what you posted says 1% of the muscle is glycogen, not 1% of glycogen is in the muscle.  do you understand this?
AND you are being unreasonable.

Lets say that you are right and it is indeed 80 percent.


THAT STILL MEANS ONLY 1600 CALORIES MAX! if you are talking in entirety.

Not even a half of a lb.


Yes!  1 Percent of the muscle IS GLYCOGEN!   20 calories of glycogen as I stated!


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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2007, 10:57:06 AM »
What he stated was wrong at the start by saying only one percent of glycogen is stored in the muscle but because only one percent of the muscles mass is made of glycogen he is arguing that because this percentage is so small there would be no visible difference.  The second bit makes sense.
Exactly.

I think people got confused with the wording.

Mr. Intenseone

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2007, 10:58:10 AM »
I don`t see a difference.  Only a different Pose, some visible gyno possibly and a tan and different lighting.

Furthermore what is the time frame of the pictures?

Were you the same Bodyfat?

I'm kinda thinking you can see the difference and just don't want to admit it, the pic on the bottom was taken several years PRIOR to the one on top.....BF% is irrelavant unless for health purposes only then BMI is done.

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2007, 10:58:57 AM »
Where is Glycogen Found in the Body?
Most glycogen is found in the liver (comprising about 10 percent of the liver), with muscles containing a relatively small amount. Liver-glycogen is more readily available for energy and blood glucose maintenance, while muscle-glycogen is used primarily for muscle-energy. A third glycogen location is the brain, where small amounts of glycogen are found in the glial cells.


Saxon

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2007, 11:00:42 AM »
Exactly.

I think people got confused with the wording.

No, people got confused as you said one percent of glycogen is stored in the muscle, and said only 20 calories are stored in the muscle - this makes no sense...but because glycogen makes up such a small percent of the mass of muscle then your argument holds some credence.

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2007, 11:05:33 AM »
A Carbup is utterly USELESS.

You are just restoring glycogen to the liver for the most part.    It WILL NOT MAKE A VISUAL DIFFERENCE.

Sir William Idol

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2007, 11:05:41 AM »
the human body always has a tendency to remain in homeostasis if it can, usually through negative feedback cycles.  when it is severely depleted in one way or another for an extended period of time, it is perfectly reasonable that it will overcompensate and a contest ready bodybuilder could replenish much more glycogen over a binge period than he would if he just ate a much bigger lunch on any given day during the offseason. 

anyone who's ever dieted hard knows this.  chick says he has a cheat day every sunday when dieting, ask him if theres a more than 1% difference.  just cause someone hasn't scientifically photographed it at the exact moment you demand proof doesnt mean its not true.  theres 1000's of anecdotal corroborations on this.
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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2007, 11:18:09 AM »
the human body always has a tendency to remain in homeostasis if it can, usually through negative feedback cycles.  when it is severely depleted in one way or another for an extended period of time, it is perfectly reasonable that it will overcompensate and a contest ready bodybuilder could replenish much more glycogen over a binge period than he would if he just ate a much bigger lunch on any given day during the offseason. 

anyone who's ever dieted hard knows this.  chick says he has a cheat day every sunday when dieting, ask him if theres a more than 1% difference.  just cause someone hasn't scientifically photographed it at the exact moment you demand proof doesnt mean its not true.  theres 1000's of anecdotal corroborations on this.
You are missing it.

The first place Glycogen will go is the liver.  The muscles ONLY store 1 percent.   It is NOT going to exceed this amount greatly.  The muscle are not meant for adequate Glycogen storage. 

Even if we doubled a high estimate, we would stil be under a LB.  It would make NO VISUAL DIFFERENCE.

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2007, 11:22:28 AM »
What you also have to realize is that muscles store different rates of Glycogen 20 calories or so for each muscle being the norm.

Different muscles even store less depending on their type.


This study is interesting.

Glycogen synthesis in human gastrocnemius muscle is not representative of whole-body muscle glycogen synthesis.Serlie MJ, de Haan JH, Tack CJ, Verberne HJ, Ackermans MT, Heerschap A, Sauerwein HP.
Academic Medical Centre, Department of Endocrinology and Metabolism (F5-169), Meibergdreef 9, 1105AZ Amsterdam, The Netherlands. m.j.serlie@amc.uva.nl

The introduction of 13C magnetic resonance spectroscopy (MRS) has enabled noninvasive measurement of muscle glycogen synthesis in humans. Conclusions based on measurements by the MRS technique assume that glucose metabolism in gastrocnemius muscle is representative for all skeletal muscles and thus can be extrapolated to whole-body muscle glucose metabolism. An alternative method to assess whole-body muscle glycogen synthesis is the use of [3-(3)H]glucose. In the present study, we compared this method to the MRS technique, which is a well-validated technique for measuring muscle glycogen synthesis. Muscle glycogen synthesis was measured in the gastrocnemius muscle of six lean healthy subjects by MRS and by the isotope method during a hyperinsulinemic-euglycemic clamp. Mean muscle glycogen synthesis as measured by the isotope method was 115 +/- 26 micromol x kg(-1) muscle x min(-1) vs. 178 +/- 72 micromol x kg(-1) muscle x min(-1) (P = 0.03) measured by MRS. Glycogen synthesis rates measured by MRS exceeded 100% of glucose uptake in three of the six subjects. We conclude that glycogen synthesis rates measured in gastrocnemius muscle cannot be extrapolated to whole-body muscle glycogen synthesis.

PMID: 15855310 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2007, 11:27:59 AM »
You also have to consider that Glycogen amounts in a time period.

You don`t have FULL stores at all times.  You constantly USE glycogen.  It does not stop!

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2007, 11:31:57 AM »
You've been playing tennis or squash, or riding a bicycle, running, swimming, or rowing for an extended period of time without any trouble, when suddenly your muscles begin to feel tired and you're not sure how much longer you can continue. Without a doubt, low muscle glycogen is the culprit behind your sudden fatigue. Your muscles are running so low on carbohydrate fuel that they are no longer able to function normally.

Your muscles aren't machines, after all. Although your car engine can race along full-tilt until the last drop of petrol is exhausted, your muscles begin slowing down well before the glycogen is gone. Perhaps muscles work this way for purposes of self-preservation; even the most compulsive, highly driven athletes can never destroy their muscle cells by totally wiping out their energy stores, because fatigue stops them first.

But even when muscle glycogen dips to low levels, there's still plenty of carbohydrate available to the muscles. The trouble is that it's not actually inside the muscle cells - it's floating by in the bloodstream in the form of blood glucose, or 'blood sugar'. So, as muscles grow tired, shouldn't they simply step up their intake of the fuel wafting along in the nearby blood? Wouldn't pulling extra glucose into the muscles help you avoid fatigue and keep you exercising for longer periods of time?

Well, yes - except it hasn't been clear that muscles are actually 'smart' enough to do that. Many scientists have speculated that the extraction of glucose from the blood is fairly constant during exercise, even when glycogen levels get low and muscles should know enough to pull in glucose in augmented amounts.

To find out whether muscles can actually increase their intake of blood glucose in a time of need, scientists at the University of Limburg in the Netherlands asked six subjects to deplete muscle glycogen in one leg by engaging in prolonged, one-legged exercises. As a result, each subject ended up with one leg with normal glycogen levels and one glycogen-poor leg.

The following morning, each subject exercised one leg for 90 minutes at 60 per cent of maximal workload and did the same with the other leg two hours later (the order of leg exercise was random; some subjects used the glycogen-poor leg first, while others started with the normal limb).

The normal leg had more than twice as much glycogen as the impoverished leg at the beginning of exercise and still had 73-per cent more glycogen after 90 minutes. As you might expect, blood-glucose levels were the same in each leg, and when the subjects were at rest the glycogen-depleted leg muscles were extracting over three times as much glucose from the blood as the glycogen-rich muscles (the glycogen-poor fibres were obviously attempting to take in glucose in order to build back their glycogen concentrations).

However, once exercise started the story was different. The rate of glucose uptake from the blood did increase during exercise, but it increased by about the same amount for glycogen-poor and glycogen-rich leg muscles. As a result, after 10, 30,60, and 90 minutes of exercise, both glycogen-poor and glycogen-rich muscles were taking in about the same amount of glucose. The glycogen-famished muscles weren't 'smart'.

So if your muscles take up about the same amount of glucose during exercise, whether they're glycogen-depleted or not, why should you bother to consume a carbohydrate-containing sports drink during exertions which last for an hour or longer, as sports nutritionists are always advising? Obviously, using a sports drink during exercise is no substitute for carbo-loading prior to your exertions, but the drink does ensure that your blood-sugar levels won't drop too low as you train or compete. If blood glucose falls too far, your muscles can get into 'double trouble' - no glycogen fuel in the 'tank' and no glucose fuel from the 'pump' (the blood).

('Use of Glucose during Prolonged Exercise in Muscle with a Normal and Low Glycogen Content, ' Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, vol. 26(5), Supplement, # 1144, 1994)





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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2007, 11:33:37 AM »
Exactly.

The actual MUSCLE only stores around 1 percent of Glycogen.   Its hillarious to think that they THINK their appearance will be any different.



Doesn't the water that is taken up with the glycogen have a bigger impact than the actual glycogen level?  Assuming that 4x as much water is taken up as glycgoen, it seems that would have a bigger impact on appearance. 
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Sir William Idol

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2007, 11:35:21 AM »
You are missing it.

The first place Glycogen will go is the liver.  The muscles ONLY store 1 percent.   It is NOT going to exceed this amount.  The muscle are not meant for adequate Glycogen storage. 

Even if we doubled a high estimate, we would stil be under a LB.  It would make NO VISUAL DIFFERENCE.

During the transition from the fasted-exercised state to the glycogen restored condition, the liver plays a key role in directing the supply of ingested glucose to skeletal muscle for its deposition. 

Although glucose deposition takes place predominantly in muscle cells, the extent to which muscle glycogen is derived via direct uptake and phosphorylation of glucose, and from non-glucose sources such as lactate and pyruvate may vary depending on metabolic conditions. 

It is known that glucose absorbed by the gut leads to restoration of glycogen in muscle much sooner than in liver. 

The delay in liver glycogen synthesis despite glucose availability is referred to as the "glucose paradox", since glucose absorbed by the gut is preferentially stored in skeletal muscle, despite the depleted state of the liver. 

this is fun, lets keep going
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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2007, 11:36:59 AM »
Evidence of spilling over is in the 2nd place finisher of the Mr. GetBig contest.......

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2007, 11:41:15 AM »
During the transition from the fasted-exercised state to the glycogen restored condition, the liver plays a key role in directing the supply of ingested glucose to skeletal muscle for its deposition. 

Although glucose deposition takes place predominantly in muscle cells, the extent to which muscle glycogen is derived via direct uptake and phosphorylation of glucose, and from non-glucose sources such as lactate and pyruvate may vary depending on metabolic conditions. 

It is known that glucose absorbed by the gut leads to restoration of glycogen in muscle much sooner than in liver. 

The delay in liver glycogen synthesis despite glucose availability is referred to as the "glucose paradox", since glucose absorbed by the gut is preferentially stored in skeletal muscle, despite the depleted state of the liver. 

this is fun, lets keep going

Again.

Muscles are ONLY made of 1 percent Glycogen.  To replenish ALL THE MUSCLES takes not many calories to do so. 

We are looking around 1400 calories or so.  The muscle are NEVER in a completely full state either.

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2007, 11:42:52 AM »
You are missing it.

The first place Glycogen will go is the liver.  The muscles ONLY store 1 percent.   It is NOT going to exceed this amount greatly.  The muscle are not meant for adequate Glycogen storage. 

Even if we doubled a high estimate, we would stil be under a LB.  It would make NO VISUAL DIFFERENCE.

LOLOLOLOLOL ;D

Oh, adonis, I know you're here for only one purpose, to rustle everyone's feathers, but this was too much man ;)

Just out of curiosity, I just want to know if you would know as much as a 9th grade bio student....

How much glycogen is found in the blood????  Simple question, come on
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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2007, 11:45:39 AM »
LOLOLOLOLOL ;D

Oh, adonis, I know you're here for only one purpose, to rustle everyone's feathers, but this was too much man ;)

Just out of curiosity, I just want to know if you would know as much as a 9th grade bio student....

How much glycogen is found in the blood????  Simple question, come on
About 70 calories or 4 percent.

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2007, 11:51:15 AM »
During the transition from the fasted-exercised state to the glycogen restored condition, the liver plays a key role in directing the supply of ingested glucose to skeletal muscle for its deposition. 

Although glucose deposition takes place predominantly in muscle cells, the extent to which muscle glycogen is derived via direct uptake and phosphorylation of glucose, and from non-glucose sources such as lactate and pyruvate may vary depending on metabolic conditions. 

It is known that glucose absorbed by the gut leads to restoration of glycogen in muscle much sooner than in liver. 

The delay in liver glycogen synthesis despite glucose availability is referred to as the "glucose paradox", since glucose absorbed by the gut is preferentially stored in skeletal muscle, despite the depleted state of the liver. 

this is fun, lets keep going

I think you are missing what I am saying again!

My whole point is in your VERY post.   

Brutal_1

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2007, 11:54:15 AM »
About 70 calories or 4 percent.

1. LOL

2. I won't post on this thread again, I'll let you dangle the carrot in front of everyone else's face ;)  That answer summed it up for me bro.

3. You should pick up a physio book and learn the basics before spouting off and quoting these studies man.

4. LOL

5. Who said the "spilling over" phenomenon seen in bodybuilding is due to glycogen? ???  And what would a picture of a smooth bodybuilder prove, biochemically speaking ::) :P

6. For the record, glycogen is NOT found in the blood man!  It's the S-T-O-R-A-G-E form of glucose!  So, "glycogen" doesn't "GO" anywhere....thought you knew foo!  Better "aks" somebody!!!!

7,8,9 LOL! ;)
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Sir William Idol

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Re: CAN SOMEOME PROVIDE PHOTOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE OF????????????
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2007, 11:57:15 AM »
i would have brought up troponins point earlier but the only studies we are looking at are comparing glycogen levels and not water weight which we know composes 80% of muscle.  so is there a scientific study that weighed people in severely carb depleted states and then again 3 days after a carb loading phase with restricted sodium while taking photographs at each point in time along with bodyfat levels, where it could then be accurately determined what muscle weight was gained for the carb load?

there obviously isnt going to be such a study.  scientific studies attempt to prove something worthwhile, and we all know no one invests money into bodybuilding related studies, they just make up studies to sell pills.

so again as i said before, all there is is anecdotal evidence, which for some reason you are trying to disprove despite overwhelming opinion otherwise.


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