Why such low weights when training with Milos???

[sgt. d]

You're only a sheep if you don't verify something for youself. Just follow the crowd and/or loudest person in the room.

Since you haven't (and probably won't) try this method to verify it, you are therefore, a sheep.

How ironic.

I still want to know what is in this "Secret Shake" of Milos? I heard a lot of pros got sick from drinking the "Secret Shake" that Milos gives out. Is this the blame for the puking? Garraeth did you see any gains from this shake? Thanks

SGT. D

[Max_Rep]

I still want to know what is in this "Secret Shake" of Milos? I heard a lot of pros got sick from drinking the "Secret Shake" that Milos gives out. Is this the blame for the puking? Garraeth did you see any gains from this shake? Thanks

SGT. D

We all peed in a glass marked "This goes to Shawn Ray". 

[sgt. d]

We all peed in a glass marked "This goes to Shawn Ray". 

Shawn Ray is a good man. Back to the topic, so you taste your own urine? That is the secret shake? I heard they do that in other countries. How does this all play into building muscle? Is it safe?

[DIVISION]

I would think that it would be hard to put on a bunch of muscle whilest training in the manner of Milos, but it would be good for refining a lot of bulky mass.  I personally would enjoy the training and that is what it is all about to me.

Bingo.

I think it's good for bodybuilders looking to refine muscle, but it's not for building muscle necessarily.

Bodybuilding and powerlifting are completely different.

Milos could take a powerlifter and make him a decent bodybuilder, no doubt.

But I'd take tips on form for bench, DL, squat from a powerlifter over Milos.



DIV

[Max_Rep]

When you lift a submaximal load for many many reps you recruit the SLOW twitch fibers and thus result in Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.... however when you use 90% or more of your percived 1rep MAX you RECRUIT the FAST TWITCH fibers which result in Sarcomere hypertrophy... most responsibly for muscle growth and myogenic tone.

For best results always cycle HEAVY loads in your training.

While your statement may be correct, it shows that you completely misunderstand Milos’s training method.

It is not doing sub-maximal load for many reps.

On the first exercise you train to max for approximately 10 reps, your rest 5 to 10 seconds while getting into place for the next exercise which is the maximum load at THAT time.

Since you have been pre-exhausted by the first exercise, you then proceed to each exercise repeating the process training with the maximum load at THAT time, each time.

The shoulder exercise that everyone like to make fun of is a leverage movement and not a press. It is done as the 7th exercise in a giant set.

At my gym I took three guys who are all capable of doing seated front presses with 225 pounds for 8 reps and had them do this Milos shoulder exercise, with NO pre-exhaustion exercises. None of them could get 10 reps with a pair of 5 pound dumbbells.

[Devon97]

Max Rep... will you provide an example of the actual shoulder workout... Specific exercises/movements, and loads perscribed ?

[Devon97]

Sorry, you're wrong, your suggesting that by training that way that the muscle is recruting oxygen, that's not the case with almost any type of weight training!

I hope you are not a "Coach" in real life.

[Devon97]

You are somewhat right. Muscle fibers are recruited in order: from slow to fast. When you perform a lift the slow fibers come in to play first, always. When the load is too heavy for just the slow fibers to handle, the faster fibers come in to play. Yea but if you perform a 3 rep max you are going to recruit the TYPE IIB Fibers IMMEDIATELY
The difference between sarcoplasmic and sarcomere hypertrophy has nothing to do with the difference between slow and fast fibers. Wrong, Performing sets of 15 reps will target the SLOW TWITCH ( TYPE I) and also promote Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, And at the other end of the spectrum performing sets of 3 reps will RECRUIT TYPE IIB FAST TWITCH fibers and also promote Myofrybl(sp?) HypertrophyWith sarcoplasmic hypertrophy the volume of the tissue that supplies energy to the fibers (all fibers) is increased. To put it simpler: your muscles hold more fluids. This kind of hypertrophy accurs from lighter weights, higher reps trainig.Thats what I just said

With sarcomere hypertrophy the volume of contractile machinery is increased: the volume of the actual muscle tissue increases.TRUE

The fast muscle fibers are much more susceptible to damage from weight training and that's why heavy weights, fewer reps is indeed the way to go for sarcomere hypertrophy.TRUE

Still the muscle fluids count for something like 20% of a muscles volume so you shouldn't discard sarcoplasmic hypertrophy neither.TRUE, Thats why I said to always cycle MAX or NEAR MAX loads into your training

[Max_Rep]

Max Rep... will you provide an example of the actual shoulder workout... Specific exercises/movements, and loads perscribed ?

Well I can do this later but don't have the time right now. The challenge is that some of the exercises are a bit out of the norm so it will be difficult to describe them without demonstrating them. I'll give it a shot later. The loads will be an individual matter AND a matter of conditioning to THIS type of training.  

Let me say that part of the reason I like this method is that it allows me to train with maximal load DESPITE injuries.  

[Vince B]

There must be several paths to maximum hypertrophy. Does Milos have such a path? He says he does and those who try his method seem convinced. Sergio did something like what Milos advocates way back in 1971-2 under Arthur Jones. Sergio never kept that size when he returned to Chicago and his old methods.

I have a different idea to what Milos advocates. Perhaps there is a equivalence if the muscle is triggered to grow.

[benchthis]

How come "manly-men" like you didn't show up at Milos's seminar and put yourselves on the line by actually going through the training session.

I can promise you doing 6 -12 exercises in a row with no more than 5 to 10 seconds rest is a lot harder than it looks.

no shit your dumb fuck.... go run a marathon and youll see its harder than it looks what were discussing here if its effective... dam your such a dumb fuck

[LATS]

  i have done giant sets, tri sets ect.. and yes, the pain is great.. but, my issue is why we equate pain with hypertrophic results..?  yes.. milos has some painful sessions but, pain does not equate hypertrophy.. that is the logic i can not understand.. i am not saying it does not work but, can not understand the logic..
  as far as using max loads using this method.. that can not happen.. one can not use his max load because the build up of fatigue products.. it may "feel" like you max load but, the muscle is not being as taxed because of the weakened state by fatigue products.. so the perception of using "heavy" loads is just that.. a perception.. not the muscles "reality"..
  i would like to know milos logic using this method based a physiology.. again.. not saying it cant work.. just confused on the logic.. i see some doing steve michalik's training and saying they are getting great results doing 50 or more sets a bodypart ect.. the problem i have again is that some of them are loseing to those who are doing 10 sets a bodypart and they are not any bigger or more conditioned than the low set group.. then why endure the "pain" and beating if it does not translate into much larger gains??

[musclecenter]

I quote Milos's saying :
THE MOST IMPORTANT for a bodybuilder: DON'T EVER THINK, CONSIDER, MENTION, BE FOCUSED ON....etc...etc - ON AMOUNT OF WEIGHT...ANY  AMOUNT...rather - focus on STIMULATING THE MUSCLES REGARDLESS OF THE WEIGHT USED...
MY BODYBUILDING doesn't ever considers numbers and poundages...Weight is absolutely NOT IMPORTANT...

[Vince B]

The logic must make sense.....eventually. Even in Milos's system there must be progression for gains to accumulate. That is probably true for all systems. The subject of load vs intensity seems to confuse people. I suppose some feel there must be a lower threshold below which no hypertrophy will occur. Milos might suggest that this threshold gets lowered when you do his training.

Larry Scott recommended quick training using partial reps and ascending and descending sets. Up and down the racks for biceps and deltoids. Many of us have tried that protocol with varying success. Few sustain that kind of training. Perhaps it isn't that easy to do it in busy gyms.

Should there be lactic acid pain when training to grow? Not necessarily but probably. The question is can you sustain growth with sub-maximal effort? It may be unlikely. Question to muscle? Why should it grow?

All hypertrophy training is an attempt to trigger growth. If you can do it in 1 set, as long as it is safe to do so, then why do more? That is what HIT asked. The trouble is there are no HIT champions. Not one. Therefore we can accept that some kind of volume training is required. Is it necessary to train quickly as Milos suggests? I don't think so. Will training quickly induce growth? There is no doubt about that. Will it sustain growth? That is unknown but Milos is confident it does.

I approach hypertrophy from the results point of view then try to reverse engineer training programs. I assume that rapid growth is accompanied by delayed onset muscle soreness. No soreness and there is no rapid or substantial growth. This is not accepted by the bodybuilding community and that doesn't surprise me because most have no idea what to do to keep growing. If they did they would already be huge without drugs.

Okay, this is the test of the DOMS theory. First you have to use whatever protocols you like to get your biceps really DOMS sore for several days. If you can achieve that state you should be 1/16 to 1/10th inch larger. Then you retrain your biceps before the soreness disappears. That means retraining every 3rd or 4th day. It may be possible to train more frequently but not beneficial or necessary. The trick is to do only what is sufficient at any time to generate maximum hypertrophy. Practically speaking, we are most pleased if we can measure our growth and it is positive after every workout.

If you get your biceps sore and they don't grow, and you have a positive nitrogen balance and are gaining weight then the DOMS theory is false.

[garraeth]

I still want to know what is in this "Secret Shake" of Milos? I heard a lot of pros got sick from drinking the "Secret Shake" that Milos gives out. Is this the blame for the puking? Garraeth did you see any gains from this shake? Thanks

SGT. D

It's here: www.koloseum.com

[PORKY]

Serge Nubret advocates himself to high reps/sets training method...almost similar to what milos advocates...gotta be some truth behind it all otherwise they wont look the way they did

[garraeth]

I still want to know what is in this "Secret Shake" of Milos? I heard a lot of pros got sick from drinking the "Secret Shake" that Milos gives out. Is this the blame for the puking? Garraeth did you see any gains from this shake? Thanks

SGT. D

No, it's not from the shake. Cuz the people I saw puking weren't drinking anything during their workout. 

Plus, the shake is made so it doesn't really suck energy from your system for digestion. It's aminos and dextrose -- neither really require much digestion.

I ALWAYS drank something w/ my workouts w/ Milos...even before he told me anything about his "shake" (its more like Cool-Aid). I started drinking a similar mix about 6 months earlier just cuz it made sense to me. But even tho I always drank something, and always kept up in the workouts, I never puked.

[garraeth]

Max Rep... will you provide an example of the actual shoulder workout... Specific exercises/movements, and loads perscribed ?

Here's a HUGE log of all that info: http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=138114.0

[Bluto]

On the first exercise you train to max for approximately 10 reps

mustve missed that. havent seen anyone ever training to the their max in the first exercise? that would be for example some very heavy weight in squat or legpresses and all video footage is with 1 plate per side or something like that.

[Max_Rep]

no shit your dumb fuck.... go run a marathon and youll see its harder than it looks what were discussing here if its effective... dam your such a dumb fuck

Considering that you've never tried the method how would you know its effectiveness?

You do not understand the simple concept that there are dozens of ways to achieve high intensity and results... not just one method as certain writers have influenced you to believe.

Dumb is someone who reads the rules and accepts them blindly. Genius comes when someone is willing to question the rules and experiment outside them.   

As dumb as I am I'm still...

...light years ahead of you in terms of intellectual acuity.   

[Stavios]

The logic must make sense.....eventually. Even in Milos's system there must be progression for gains to accumulate. That is probably true for all systems. The subject of load vs intensity seems to confuse people. I suppose some feel there must be a lower threshold below which no hypertrophy will occur. Milos might suggest that this threshold gets lowered when you do his training.

Larry Scott recommended quick training using partial reps and ascending and descending sets. Up and down the racks for biceps and deltoids. Many of us have tried that protocol with varying success. Few sustain that kind of training. Perhaps it isn't that easy to do it in busy gyms.

Should there be lactic acid pain when training to grow? Not necessarily but probably. The question is can you sustain growth with sub-maximal effort? It may be unlikely. Question to muscle? Why should it grow?

All hypertrophy training is an attempt to trigger growth. If you can do it in 1 set, as long as it is safe to do so, then why do more? That is what HIT asked. The trouble is there are no HIT champions. Not one. Therefore we can accept that some kind of volume training is required. Is it necessary to train quickly as Milos suggests? I don't think so. Will training quickly induce growth? There is no doubt about that. Will it sustain growth? That is unknown but Milos is confident it does.

I approach hypertrophy from the results point of view then try to reverse engineer training programs. I assume that rapid growth is accompanied by delayed onset muscle soreness. No soreness and there is no rapid or substantial growth. This is not accepted by the bodybuilding community and that doesn't surprise me because most have no idea what to do to keep growing. If they did they would already be huge without drugs.

Okay, this is the test of the DOMS theory. First you have to use whatever protocols you like to get your biceps really DOMS sore for several days. If you can achieve that state you should be 1/16 to 1/10th inch larger. Then you retrain your biceps before the soreness disappears. That means retraining every 3rd or 4th day. It may be possible to train more frequently but not beneficial or necessary. The trick is to do only what is sufficient at any time to generate maximum hypertrophy. Practically speaking, we are most pleased if we can measure our growth and it is positive after every workout.

If you get your biceps sore and they don't grow, and you have a positive nitrogen balance and are gaining weight then the DOMS theory is false.

great post Vince

very good theories you wrote there

[Yorkie T]

How come "manly-men" like you didn't show up at Milos's seminar and put yourselves on the line by actually going through the training session.

I can promise you doing 6 -12 exercises in a row with no more than 5 to 10 seconds rest is a lot harder than it looks.

Maybe it is hard and good for fitness and cv health, but is it good for building muscle? Ive gotta doubt it.

[pumpher]

The logic must make sense.....eventually. Even in Milos's system there must be progression for gains to accumulate. That is probably true for all systems. The subject of load vs intensity seems to confuse people. I suppose some feel there must be a lower threshold below which no hypertrophy will occur. Milos might suggest that this threshold gets lowered when you do his training.

Larry Scott recommended quick training using partial reps and ascending and descending sets. Up and down the racks for biceps and deltoids. Many of us have tried that protocol with varying success. Few sustain that kind of training. Perhaps it isn't that easy to do it in busy gyms.

Should there be lactic acid pain when training to grow? Not necessarily but probably. The question is can you sustain growth with sub-maximal effort? It may be unlikely. Question to muscle? Why should it grow?

All hypertrophy training is an attempt to trigger growth. If you can do it in 1 set, as long as it is safe to do so, then why do more? That is what HIT asked. The trouble is there are no HIT champions. Not one. Therefore we can accept that some kind of volume training is required. Is it necessary to train quickly as Milos suggests? I don't think so. Will training quickly induce growth? There is no doubt about that. Will it sustain growth? That is unknown but Milos is confident it does.

I approach hypertrophy from the results point of view then try to reverse engineer training programs. I assume that rapid growth is accompanied by delayed onset muscle soreness. No soreness and there is no rapid or substantial growth. This is not accepted by the bodybuilding community and that doesn't surprise me because most have no idea what to do to keep growing. If they did they would already be huge without drugs.

Okay, this is the test of the DOMS theory. First you have to use whatever protocols you like to get your biceps really DOMS sore for several days. If you can achieve that state you should be 1/16 to 1/10th inch larger. Then you retrain your biceps before the soreness disappears. That means retraining every 3rd or 4th day. It may be possible to train more frequently but not beneficial or necessary. The trick is to do only what is sufficient at any time to generate maximum hypertrophy. Practically speaking, we are most pleased if we can measure our growth and it is positive after every workout.

If you get your biceps sore and they don't grow, and you have a positive nitrogen balance and are gaining weight then the DOMS theory is false.

Vince, serious question; why train before soreness disappears? Conventional thinking might suggest this is "overtraining."

Will this not prevent you from executing exercises with maximal exertion (either in reps, amount of weight, or volume of sets?)

[GroinkTropin]

BWAHHAHAAHHAAHAHAHA FUCK I haven't laughed so hard in a while TY sir 

[Max_Rep]

mustve missed that. havent seen anyone ever training to the their max in the first exercise? that would be for example some very heavy weight in squat or legpresses and all video footage is with 1 plate per side or something like that.

So the squat ALWAYS has to be the first exercise and not the fourth or fifth? You could never do extensions, lunges, hacks and then squats?   

Hmmmm... I'll have to remember that.

If you’ve built quality muscle with conventional training and heavy weights why do you think that it is just going to wilt and dry up with a month or two of experimenting with something else?

Do you really think that muscle development is THAT volatile?

I’m not even arguing that one should completely switch over to Milo’s type of training (and by the way he did not originate the method, Steve Michalik has been training people like this for years. Arthur Jones, Gironda, Larry Scott and many others all had their own variations of this method).