Author Topic: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat  (Read 10087 times)

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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2009, 09:17:38 AM »
Again, tell that to some of these atheists filing bone-headed lawsuits about them. I refer you to what went down JUST LAST YEAR in Washington state. They're the one obsessing about someone that they (or a handful of them) don't believe to exist.




Fringe people who actually join these groups and organisations.
I hate the State.

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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2009, 10:32:20 AM »
This sounds about as stupid as the school that expelled those two kids for suspicion of being gay.   Basically you've got extreme examples of right wing and left wing wack jobs in positions of authority trying to impose their personal beliefs.  I still think this culture war is mostly driving from the far right and examples like this are the absurd result.   The vast majority of people would not give a shit if some kids wanted to pray for someone (or just pray in general) just as most people don't give a shit what the alleged sexual preference of some kid in their school might be.  Neither is grounds for expulstion, suspension, etc...

And, there are those who would say that it's the far-left that's driving this culture war, by taking "offense" to anything remotely religious.

In the case of those two girls who got expelled, this was simply reinforcement of school policy. These girls attended a religious school, in which the guidelines and policy, particularly as it relates to homosexuality, were clearly indicated.

Furthermore, it wasn't mere suspicion. As I recall, at least one of those girls admitted to being gay on her MySpace page, discovered by another student.

When questioned directly, neither denied that they were gay. Nor did either denied that what was found on their pages was false.

Again, when you attend a private religious school, you and/or your parents read the student handbook and school's policy on conduct and behavior and you sign documents, agreeing to abide by those rules. And you do so, with the FULL KNOWLEDGE that certain types of behavior will get you expelled.

Obviously, this college doesn't have any rules about praying, at least not private prayer done individually with the consent of both parties.

Here's more on that case:

U.S. District Judge Susan Illston on March 31 rejected an attempt by the college district to dismiss the case, a ruling that the students' attorneys say indicates their lawsuit has merit.

"It's not about money at all, it's about principle," said Steven Wood, a Walnut Creek attorney who filed the lawsuit. "The students want the district to admit that it was wrong, apologize and recognize that they have the right to take part in nondisruptive prayer."

According to court documents, Kyriacou was praying with an instructor in December 2007 — after the instructor said she was feeling ill — when another instructor entered the office and told the student that praying was not allowed. Soon afterward, Kyriacou was talking with Omaga in a hallway, where the same instructor confronted them and said, "You can't be doing that in there. That's our office."

Less than a week later, both students received letters informing them that they were being suspended, citing violation of Section III.A.12 of the district's student conduct policy, which reads, "Disruptive or insulting behavior, willful disobedience, habitual profanity or vulgarity; or the open and persistent defiance of the authority of, refusal to comply with directions of, or persistent abuse of, college employees in the performance of their duty on or near the school premises or public sidewalks adjacent to school premises."

Peralta administrators later backed away from the suspensions after meeting with the students and their attorney. Instead, administrators formally warned the women that they cannot engage in disruptive behavior.

Wood said Wednesday that he will meet with Peralta lawyers within the next several weeks to try to resolve the case, including through mediation. He said they are seeking a revision of the district's policy so that prayers would not be prohibited as long as they are not disruptive.

If they cannot reach agreement, the case could go to a jury, Wood said.

Kyriacou and Omaga routinely pray while at school, according to court documents.

According to the complaint, "They sometimes take short breaks to quietly pray with each other or with other classmates on the balcony outside class," and Kyriacou "occasionally makes quiet, nondisruptive personal prayers during class and lab, such as saying 'Lord Jesus, help me.' "



http://www.insidebayarea.com/news/ci_12110179

Exactly what was so "disruptive" about praying in a office relatively quietly with her teacher? Does this particular professor (Derek Piazza) have super-sensitive ears that vibrate violently at the slightest hint of someone offering supplication to his/her Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ?

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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2009, 11:04:03 AM »
And, there are those who would say that it's the far-left that's driving this culture war, by taking "offense" to anything remotely religious.

In the case of those two girls who got expelled, this was simply reinforcement of school policy. These girls attended a religious school, in which the guidelines and policy, particularly as it relates to homosexuality, were clearly indicated.

Furthermore, it wasn't mere suspicion. As I recall, at least one of those girls admitted to being gay on her MySpace page, discovered by another student.

When questioned directly, neither denied that they were gay. Nor did either denied that what was found on their pages was false.

Again, when you attend a private religious school, you and/or your parents read the student handbook and school's policy on conduct and behavior and you sign documents, agreeing to abide by those rules. And you do so, with the FULL KNOWLEDGE that certain types of behavior will get you expelled.

Obviously, this college doesn't have any rules about praying, at least not private prayer done individually with the consent of both parties.

Here's more on that case:

U.S. District Judge Susan Illston on March 31 rejected an attempt by the college district to dismiss the case, a ruling that the students' attorneys say indicates their lawsuit has merit.

"It's not about money at all, it's about principle," said Steven Wood, a Walnut Creek attorney who filed the lawsuit. "The students want the district to admit that it was wrong, apologize and recognize that they have the right to take part in nondisruptive prayer."

According to court documents, Kyriacou was praying with an instructor in December 2007 — after the instructor said she was feeling ill — when another instructor entered the office and told the student that praying was not allowed. Soon afterward, Kyriacou was talking with Omaga in a hallway, where the same instructor confronted them and said, "You can't be doing that in there. That's our office."
Less than a week later, both students received letters informing them that they were being suspended, citing violation of Section III.A.12 of the district's student conduct policy, which reads, "Disruptive or insulting behavior, willful disobedience, habitual profanity or vulgarity; or the open and persistent defiance of the authority of, refusal to comply with directions of, or persistent abuse of, college employees in the performance of their duty on or near the school premises or public sidewalks adjacent to school premises."

Peralta administrators later backed away from the suspensions after meeting with the students and their attorney. Instead, administrators formally warned the women that they cannot engage in disruptive behavior.

Wood said Wednesday that he will meet with Peralta lawyers within the next several weeks to try to resolve the case, including through mediation. He said they are seeking a revision of the district's policy so that prayers would not be prohibited as long as they are not disruptive.
If they cannot reach agreement, the case could go to a jury, Wood said.

Kyriacou and Omaga routinely pray while at school, according to court documents.

According to the complaint, "They sometimes take short breaks to quietly pray with each other or with other classmates on the balcony outside class," and Kyriacou "occasionally makes quiet, nondisruptive personal prayers during class and lab, such as saying 'Lord Jesus, help me.' "



http://www.insidebayarea.com/news/ci_12110179

Exactly what was so "disruptive" about praying in a office relatively quietly with her teacher? Does this particular professor (Derek Piazza) have super-sensitive ears that vibrate violently at the slightest hint of someone offering supplication to his/her Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ?

my recollection is that neither girl admitted to being gay nor do I recall anyone showing any "rule" that they school had regarding homosexuality. Basically they were suspended because they were suspected of having gay feeling and no specific rule or violation was ever mentioned. (that I can recall)

How do you know that in the case of the students praying that they didn't have many prior warnings.  It seems as though the school has decided that these students impromtu prayer breaks disruptive behaviour.  They were after all in an office shared with a teacher who asked them not to do that in his office.   Sounds like a pretty clear cut case of willful disobedience as mentioned in your highlighted text.  Doesn't the teacher who shares the office also have to give consent?  And if he does not and they persist they are violating the school rules.   Pretty simple really.  They should be glad they weren't kicked out on suspicion of praying

IMO - both cases are examples of extreme stupidity of the right and the left.   Both situations could use a healthy dose of tolerance.   



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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2009, 11:20:45 AM »
my recollection is that neither girl admitted to being gay nor do I recall anyone showing any "rule" that they school had regarding homosexuality. Basically they were suspended because they were suspected of having gay feeling and no specific rule or violation was ever mentioned. (that I can recall)

At least one said she was on her MySpace page, found and pointed out by a fellow student to his teacher. I think the other claimed on her page that she "wasn't sure".

When asked about the situation, neither denied the allegations.

Furthermore, the school does have rules about that. In fact, I linked a copy of the school's policy rules and standards, the last time we discussed this. Besides, having attended Christian schools most of my childhood and teenage life, I can tell you firsthand, that religious schools spell that out, in no uncertain terms.


How do you know that in the case of the students praying that they didn't have many prior warnings.  It seems as though the school has decided that these students impromtu prayer breaks disruptive behaviour.  They were after all in an office shared with a teacher who asked them not to do that in his office.

You mean...THEIR OFFICE!!!!

   
Sounds like a pretty clear cut case of willful disobedience as mentioned in your highlighted text.  Doesn't the teacher who shares the office also have to give consent?  And if he does not and they persist they are violating the school rules.   Pretty simple really.  They should be glad they weren't kicked out on suspicion of praying.

IMO - both cases are examples of extreme stupidity of the right and the left.   Both situations could use a healthy dose of tolerance.   


There was no indication from either article that this was an occuring thing. In fact, the student's initial intent was to give her professor a Christmas present. In any event, two people praying in an office is hardly "disruptive" to the point of the students' warranting suspension.

You highlighted Piazza's words, "That's OUR office!!!", to which I respond, "EXACTLY!!!!" It belongs to both Piazza and the other professor, who GAVE CONSENT to have that young lady pray for her.

In other words, she had permission from a college employee to do this. And, unless there's some unknown rule requiring both professors to consent to the office use, the sick professor's approval is just as valid as that of Piazza.

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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2009, 11:36:37 AM »
McWay - to the best of my recollection you never showed a rule that regarding homosexuality but feel free to repost.  All I recall is that this particular sect of Lutherans believes that homosexuality is a sin. 
And these kids were suspended for "a bond of intimacy" that was "characteristic of a lesbian relationship,"  The girls said they admitted only that they loved each other as friends.  I'm also not aware that they were engaging in any sexual or inappropriate activitiy in school.   What it comes down to is a few administrators making a judgement regarding the interpretation of their faith.... oddly no similar examples were given of students being expelled on suspicioun of violating any other interpretation of faith and you don't even have to be a member of the church to attend the school.   It was all very subjective.

In the case of the students praying you are right it was a shared office and one would assume both teachers would need to give consent.  Disruptive behaviour is the judgement of the teacher or administrator just like "suspicion" of gaysness needs to be the judgement of a weird middle aged man who runs a Lutheran high school. 

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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2009, 11:51:57 AM »
McWay - to the best of my recollection you never showed a rule that regarding homosexuality but feel free to repost.  All I recall is that this particular sect of Lutherans believes that homosexuality is a sin. 
And these kids were suspended for "a bond of intimacy" that was "characteristic of a lesbian relationship,"  The girls said they admitted only that they loved each other as friends.  I'm also not aware that they were engaging in any sexual or inappropriate activitiy in school.   What it comes down to is a few administrators making a judgement regarding the interpretation of their faith.... oddly no similar examples were given of students being expelled on suspicioun of violating any other interpretation of faith and you don't even have to be a member of the church to attend the school.   It was all very subjective.

A simple "No, we ain't gay!!!" would have settled the issue. What is so difficult about saying such, unless the allegations were valid?

No, you don't have to be a member of the faith. I went to school with a number of students who didn't go to my or any other church, and a few who weren't even professed Christians (in certain denominations, non-constituents and non-denominational/non-Christian students get charged higher tuition; I call it the "heathen rate"  ;D ). 

Nonetheless, if you attend their school, you play BY THEIR RULES; or, you get gone.


In the case of the students praying you are right it was a shared office and one would assume both teachers would need to give consent.  Disruptive behaviour is the judgement of the teacher or administrator just like "suspicion" of gaysness needs to be the judgement of a weird middle aged man who runs a Lutheran high school. 

Both teachers wouldn't need to give consent, unless the use of the office by one encroaches the property of the other. As far as the article states, they were praying by the sick professor's desk. And the issue here is the praying itself, not any space or property-violation against Piazza.


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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2009, 12:15:59 PM »
A simple "No, we ain't gay!!!" would have settled the issue. What is so difficult about saying such, unless the allegations were valid?

No, you don't have to be a member of the faith. I went to school with a number of students who didn't go to my or any other church, and a few who weren't even professed Christians (in certain denominations, non-constiuents and non-denomonational/non-Christian students get charged higher tuition; I call it the "heathen rate"  ;D ). 
Nonetheless, if you attend their school, you play BY THEIR RULES; or, you get gone.

They did say that but apparently that wasn't sufficient for the creepy middle aged man who ran the school.  He felt it was appropriate to be in a room alone with each teenaged girl and ask them very personal and intimate questions and eventually decided that they had a "bond of intimacy" that IN HIS MIND was charateristic of a gay relationship. 

frankly an even better response would have been  "none of your fucking business". 

from the an article on the topic:  According to the principal, who called each girl out of class separately, both admitted they had hugged and kissed each other and told other students they were lesbians. The girls said they admitted only that they loved each other as friends.

Both teachers wouldn't need to give consent, unless the use of the office by one encroaches the property of the other. As far as the article states, they were praying by the sick professor's desk. And the issue here is the praying itself, not any space or property-violation against Piazza.

clearly the school disagrees with you.  Common courtesy disagrees with you.  If  you share a space with someone it's common courtesy to not do something that offends them or that they object to. Perhaps their praying was distracting or disruptive at least to Piazza and it prevented him from concentrating on his work.   Maybe he just finds it offensive and he has that right to tell them to do it somewhere else.   If the person who shares his office has an objection then they should take it up with the administrator but the students don't get a choice in the matter. 

Look most of this just boils down to common courtesy and a bit of tolerance.  Personally I couldn't care less if someone wanted to do a quick prayer for someone if my office and it wouldn't bother me in the least.  I would have to assume that, if I were inclined,  I could mock them and ridicule them while they were doing it and they would have no objection.  After all, I share that space too right?

Again, a little common courtesy is all that's really needed.   I share some office space with a few other people and sometimes I have sardines at lunch.  People hate the smell and so I go outside and eat.  No one asked me to do this but I'm aware that it bothers them. 

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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2009, 04:07:40 PM »
They did say that but apparently that wasn't sufficient for the creepy middle aged man who ran the school.  He felt it was appropriate to be in a room alone with each teenaged girl and ask them very personal and intimate questions and eventually decided that they had a "bond of intimacy" that IN HIS MIND was charateristic of a gay relationship. 

frankly an even better response would have been  "none of your fucking business". 

If I'm the principal and your behavior or conduct is violating my school's policy, it becomes my business!

But others have a different take, including Tom Scott, vice president of operations for the Association of Christian Schools International, which represents more than 800 religious schools in the state and 4,000 nationwide. It does not represent Cal Lutheran, however.

"Private schools don't operate under public schools' standards," Scott said.

Private, religious schools do have the right to decide who attends, but recommends their officials have students and parents sign a waiver prior to admitting them asking them to adhere to Christian morals and standards as a condition of enrollment, he said.


http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/12/21/news/californian/21_33_4112_20_05.txt

Moreover.......

Students applying to the California Lutheran High School in Wildomar, California, a private religious school affiliated with the Evangelical Lutheran Synod and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, are required to signify their acceptance of the rules governing the institution, which includes an agreement to conduct themselves according to rules of "Christian Conduct." According to Justice Richli, the school presented evidence about the view of non-marital sex and homosexuality embraced by the religious bodies that sponsor this school. "Lutherans believe that homosexuality is a sin," she wrote. "The School has a policy of refusing admission to homosexual students. Its ‘Christian Conduct’ rule provided that a student could be expelled for engaging in immoral or scandalous conduct, whether on or off campus. This would include homosexual conduct."

http://newyorklawschool.typepad.com/leonardlink/2009/01/students-expelled-from-religious-school-over-lesbian-relationship.html



Again, when you attend their school, you play by their rules; or, you're gone.



from the an article on the topic:  According to the principal, who called each girl out of class separately, both admitted they had hugged and kissed each other and told other students they were lesbians. The girls said they admitted only that they loved each other as friends.

EXACTLY!!! That's all they admitted. At no point did they deny that they were lesbians. They said they loved each other as friends. That’s rather vague. That teacher, based on the e-mail and reports from other students wanted to know just how “friendly” these two were.

If someone’s accusing you of being gay and such isn’t the case, then it behooves you to make it plain (as we say in the church), especially when your scholastic tenure is at stake. Lost is all of this is the fact that, for all of the drama in this case, these students NEVER proclaimed that they were FALSELY ACCUSED. Nor, did they deny that their MySpace statements (one admitting to being bisexual; the other being unsure of her orientation, seen by the students and at least one teacher) were untrue.

In short, if you ain't gay, say you ain't gay and end the drama. They didn't. The principal made a judgment call which, at the end of the day, we find to be correct. They were lesbians, after all (from the NewYorkLawSchool link):

In this case, a student reported to a teacher that a female classmate had said that she loved another female classmate, without naming any names. The student told the teacher that he would be able to figure out who was involved by looking at the female students’ MySpace pages. The teacher reviewed the MySpace pages of his female students and discovered the two students who were subsequently expelled, each of whom had referred to being in love with the other. One of the students identified herself as "bi" and the other as "not sure" under the category of sexual orientation.







clearly the school disagrees with you.  Common courtesy disagrees with you.  If  you share a space with someone it's common courtesy to not do something that offends them or that they object to. Perhaps their praying was distracting or disruptive at least to Piazza and it prevented him from concentrating on his work.   Maybe he just finds it offensive and he has that right to tell them to do it somewhere else.   If the person who shares his office has an objection then they should take it up with the administrator but the students don't get a choice in the matter. 

The court may disagree with your assessment. With that said, "common courtesy" would be that you simply ask that they not do that, NOT SHOUT at the student and threaten her with expulsion.

Furthermore, your statement makes no sense. Piazza walked into the office, while they were praying. They weren't doing so, while he was grading papers or something to that effect.

Either way, the other professor can use the office as he or she sees fit, provided it doesn't impede on his space (which both the professor and student did not, seeing as Piazza was not there).


Look most of this just boils down to common courtesy and a bit of tolerance.  Personally I couldn't care less if someone wanted to do a quick prayer for someone if my office and it wouldn't bother me in the least.  I would have to assume that, if I were inclined,  I could mock them and ridicule them while they were doing it and they would have no objection.  After all, I share that space too right?

Again, a little common courtesy is all that's really needed.   I share some office space with a few other people and sometimes I have sardines at lunch.  People hate the smell and so I go outside and eat.  No one asked me to do this but I'm aware that it bothers them. 


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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2009, 04:25:58 PM »
If I'm the principal and your behavior or conduct is violating my school's policy, it becomes my business!

so you'd be ok if the principal declared that any form of prayer of any religion, any time/any place was not allowed on campus?

assuming that it's the schools policy of course

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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2009, 04:30:52 PM »
so you'd be ok if the princinpal declared that any form of prayer of any religion, any time/any place was not allowed on campus?

assuming that it's the schools policy of course



You are still talking about Cal Lutheran, are you not? Why would the principal of a Christian school do something like that?

It appears you're trying to paint some scenario about non-Christian prayers (i.e. Muslim ones). Is that the case?


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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2009, 04:51:56 PM »


You are still talking about Cal Lutheran, are you not? Why would the principal of a Christian school do something like that?

It appears you're trying to paint some scenario about non-Christian prayers (i.e. Muslim ones). Is that the case?



no, I'm talking any public school (as in the case of your example)

what if the school decided it's policy was that no religious activity of any kind is allowed on school grounds

If that were school policy you'd be fine with that right?

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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2009, 04:54:12 PM »
no, I'm talking any public school (as in the case of your example)

what if the school decided it's policy was that no religious activity of any kind is allowed on school grounds

If that were school policy you'd be fine with that right?

haven't you figuered out by now Mcway rarely directly answers your question.
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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2009, 04:55:55 PM »
no, I'm talking any public school (as in the case of your example)

what if the school decided it's policy was that no religious activity of any kind is allowed on school grounds

If that were school policy you'd be fine with that right?

Nope!! Because that clashes with our federal Constitution!! People can pray on school grounds, under certain conditions.

Furthermore, the example I used was referring to PRIVATE SCHOOLS. Cal Lutheran is a private religious school.


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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #88 on: April 19, 2009, 04:58:24 PM »
haven't you figuered out by now Mcway rarely directly answers your question.

He's figured out that you're woefully and pitifully wrong........as usual.

I simply wanted him to clarify his question. He did; and I answered it.

Now, if you're done making yourself look silly (which is highly unlikely).........



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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #89 on: April 19, 2009, 05:19:06 PM »
Nope!! Because that clashes with our federal Constitution!! People can pray on school grounds, under certain conditions.

Furthermore, the example I used was referring to PRIVATE SCHOOLS. Cal Lutheran is a private religious school.


The Lutheran School example was about two teenaged girls being interrogated by a middle aged man who for some reason thinks it's appropriate to make them either admit or deny being gay for each other.  That's very weird  and it wouldn't matter at all if it was my kid or yours. 

Your example in this thread was about a couple of students in a public school who think they have the right to pray in an office that doesn't belong to them against the preference of a teacher who occupies that office.  The school claims the right to declare that action as  "persistent defiance of the authority of, refusal to comply with directions of, or persistent abuse of, college employees in the performance of their duty on or near the school premises or public sidewalks adjacent to school premises."

I think both circumstances would have been non-issues with a bit of tact, tolerance and fucking common sense. 




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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #90 on: April 19, 2009, 05:29:13 PM »
The Lutheran School example was about two teenaged girls being interrogated by a middle aged man who for some reason thinks it's appropriate to make them either admit or deny being gay for each other.  That's very weird  and it wouldn't matter at all if it was my kid or yours. 

No, it's not weird. These students were suspected of engaging in conduct that violates the school's policy, which they (and their parents) agreed to uphold. The principal has every right to get to the bottom of the situation.

Your example in this thread was about a couple of students in a public school who think they have the right to pray in an office that doesn't belong to them against the preference of a teacher who occupies that office.  The school claims the right to declare that action as  "persistent defiance of the authority of, refusal to comply with directions of, or persistent abuse of, college employees in the performance of their duty on or near the school premises or public sidewalks adjacent to school premises."

You forget that the students prayed in an office FOR one of the people, to whom that office belongs, WITH THAT PERSON'S CONSENT.

That isn't any defiance of authority. One of the "college employees" let them do it.


I think both circumstances would have been non-issues with a bit of tact, tolerance and fucking common sense. 

For the most part, you are correct.

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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #91 on: April 19, 2009, 05:32:51 PM »
haven't you figuered out by now Mcway rarely directly answers your question.

I know - it's pointless trying to discuss nuance with an idealogue

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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #92 on: April 19, 2009, 05:40:32 PM »
I know - it's pointless trying to discuss nuance with an idealogue

What are you talking about, Straw Man?

Your question was unclear. So, I asked you what I did, to get a clear understanding of what exactly you were asking. Once your question was clarifiied, I answered it DIRECTLY!

But, in case you missed it, the answer to your question was........

"Nope!! Because that clashes with our federal Constitution!! People can pray on school grounds, under certain conditions."

Plain and simple, even L Dawg can grasp it (I think........but I wouldn't bet any money on it).




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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #93 on: April 19, 2009, 05:45:03 PM »
No, it's not weird. These students were suspected of engaging in conduct that violates the school's policy, which they (and their parents) agreed to uphold. The principal has every right to get to the bottom of the situation.

they weren't or at least said they weren't and they were not doing anything on school grounds  .....

You forget that the students prayed in an office FOR one of the people, to whom that office belongs, WITH THAT PERSON'S CONSENT.
That isn't any defiance of authority. One of the "college employees" let them do it.
clearly the school doesn't agree with you and seems to think their own judgement overrides that of the students or even one of the teachers

in both cases the school seems to think they are the final authority........right?

For the most part, you are correct.

for the most part, I usually am

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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #94 on: April 19, 2009, 05:55:16 PM »
they weren't or at least said they weren't and they were not doing anything on school grounds  .....

Yes, they did. They said as much on their MySpace cites and openly stated that to their fellow students, at least one of whom reported it to the teacher, without giving the girls' name. The teacher put two-and-two together and figured out who they were.

When asked if they were indeed gay, there was no denial (not even that the MySpace statements were erroneous). And their subsequent lawsuit did NOT charge the school with suspending them on false accusations.

As for their being on school grounds, that doesn't matter. Once again (per the NewYorkLawSchool link):

According to Justice Richli, the school presented evidence about the view of non-marital sex and homosexuality embraced by the religious bodies that sponsor this school. "Lutherans believe that homosexuality is a sin," she wrote. "The School has a policy of refusing admission to homosexual students. Its ‘Christian Conduct’ rule provided that a student could be expelled for engaging in immoral or scandalous conduct, whether on or off campus. This would include homosexual conduct."

That's the policy; those girls agreed to abide by that policy or face possible suspension.


clearly the school doesn't agree with you and seems to think their own judgement overrides that of the students or even one of the teachers

And, thus, this case is going to court (despite the school's feverish attempts to have the case dropped).


in both cases the school seems to think they are the final authority........right?

Indeed. The big difference, however, is one school, Cal Lutheran, has sufficient evidence of policy violation (verbal and written admission of gay/bisexual behavior); the other, College of Alameda, does not (there's no violation of authority when a professor, the co-owner of the office space, gives permission for the student to pray for that professor).

for the most part, I usually am

I beg to differ. Remember this very thread is incorrectly titled, as there has been no concession of defeat by the "religious right" (especially not by one Dr. James Dobson from Focus on The Family).

big L dawg

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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #95 on: April 19, 2009, 05:56:25 PM »
What are you talking about, Straw Man?

Your question was unclear. So, I asked you what I did, to get a clear understanding of what exactly you were asking. Once your question was clarifiied, I answered it DIRECTLY!

But, in case you missed it, the answer to your question was........

"Nope!! Because that clashes with our federal Constitution!! People can pray on school grounds, under certain conditions."

Plain and simple, even L Dawg can grasp it (I think........but I wouldn't bet any money on it).





you're awfully cocky.I think you been drinkin to much blood of Christ tonight.
DAWG

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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #96 on: April 19, 2009, 06:05:46 PM »
you're awfully cocky.I think you been drinkin to much blood of Christ tonight.

I did that last week, and it was only a teeny little glass!!! 

;D


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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2009, 06:15:39 PM »
That doesn't matter. Once again (per the NewYorkLawSchool link):

According to Justice Richli, the school presented evidence about the view of non-marital sex and homosexuality embraced by the religious bodies that sponsor this school. "Lutherans believe that homosexuality is a sin," she wrote. "The School has a policy of refusing admission to homosexual students. Its ‘Christian Conduct’ rule provided that a student could be expelled for engaging in immoral or scandalous conduct, whether on or off campus. This would include homosexual conduct."

That's the policy; those girls agreed to abide by that policy.

how many times are we going to do this

first - no proof the children (yes teenage girls) were engaging in homosexual conduct

also haven't seen anything they allegedly agreed to upon admission to the school (even any agreement to comply with the whims and suspcisions of a creepy weird administrator)

And, thus, this case is going to court (despite the school's feverish attempts to have the case dropped).

so it appears.

you'll agree with the outcome either way right?

Indeed. The big difference, however, is one school, Cal Lutheran, has sufficient evidence of policy violation (verbal and written admission of gay/bisexual behavior);

how many times is this now??

there was no admission or proof of any behaviour by either one and they weren't even expelled for behaviour but rather for the judgement of a school administrator that in his opinion the girls had "a bond of intimacy" that was "characteristic of a lesbian relationship,"   "The girls said they admitted only that they loved each other as friends."

personally - if the courts say that religious schools can act in this manner (a manner I would personally call creepy, weird and most definitley discriminatory) then that's what they get to do for the time being

the other, College of Alameda, does not (there's no violation of authority when a professor, the co-owner of the office space, gives permission for the student to pray for that professor).

the college seems to think their ownership rights over-ride the teacher who gave consent.  Hard to argue with that at the moment

I beg to differ. Remember this very thread is incorrectly titled, as there has been no concession of defeat by the "religious right" (especially not by one Dr. James Dobson from Focus on The Family).

the title of this thread is simply the title from an article in the first post of this thread.

Dobson clearly admit defeat in all his perceived battles to date

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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #98 on: April 19, 2009, 06:17:44 PM »
I did that last week, and it was only a teeny little glass!!! 

;D

are you Catholic?

I wasn't aware the evangelicals believed in transubstantiation

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Re: US Religious Right Concedes Defeat
« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2009, 06:22:56 PM »
McWay,

would it be OK with you if a teacher sharing an office wanted to pray to Satan or conduct a ceremony that condemned Jesus assuming one teacher consented and the other, who was a christian objected.   Shouldn't the christian teacher just be ok with it or just leave his/her office during the activity

This would be Ok with you right?