Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death

[Straw Man]

dont jinx anybody now 

I agree they arent equivilant that doesnt change the FACT THE FETUS IS HALF HIS....dispute that fact straw please

if the fetus is soley hers how is it that the child is half his? the fetus becomes the child remember biology...
youve done nothing but cite your own personal opinion nothing based on logic or facts...my arguement however is based in logic and biological fact, you seem to want to justify your arguement with the logic that the law is a certain way and that makes it right...laws arent always ethical as im sure you would agree this is an instance of that.

I've cited my opinion which is supported by all the cases you've linked.

you've cited your opinion which is supported by nothing - and no matter how many time you write the word "logic" or a derivative it doesn't make it so.

the fetus is in the womans body and she get's 100% say over what happens to it and it makes no difference that a man had to contribute his genetic material.

her body = her choice

period

[Straw Man]

LOL that fine for you to believe a certain way but dont dismiss the idea that there are inequalities under the law and the man gets the shaft. If you think that way fine but you have to give credence to my point of view as well even more so than yours b/c again MINE IS BASED IN LOGIC AND FACTS...YOURS IS BAISED SOLEY ON OPINION AND EMOTIONS

which is fine if you feel that way im simply saying the law should be equal regardless of race, creed, religion or SEX

interesting - you wrote the word logical yet again

nothing you've said is logical

what's the logic behind saying you don't want to control the womans body yet you do want to have control over the fetus (or at least half of it)

how does that work in the real world?

[tonymctones]

I've cited my opinion which is supported by all the cases you've linked.

you've cited your opinion which is supported by nothing - and no matter how many time you write the word "logic" or a derivative it doesn't make it so.

the fetus is in the womans body and she get's 100% say over what happens to it and it makes no difference that a man had to contribute his genetic material.

her body = her choice

period

You just dont get it do you dip shit you cite LAW as the justification for your arguement   YOU JACK ASSS the law once said slavery was ok, was slavery ever the right thing to do?[/glow]

AGAIN ETHICS AND LAW DONT ALWAYS GO HAND AND HAND and this is an instance of that

since you have no basis for your claims other then your opinion and mine is based in biology and logic sorry hoss you loss again in this debate...

[tonymctones]

interesting - you wrote the word logical yet again

nothing you've said is logical

what's the logic behind saying you don't want to control the womans body yet you do want to have control over the fetus (or at least half of it)

how does that work in the real world?

WOW YOUR A FUKING IDIOT I NEVER SAID I WANTED CONTROL OVER THE FETUS AGAIN SHOW ME WHERE I SAID THAT?

in lue of being able to control the fetus the father should be presented with other options is my point...

[Straw Man]

You just dont get it do you dip shit you cite LAW as the justification for your arguement   YOU JACK ASSS the law once said slavery was ok, was slavery ever the right thing to do?[/glow]

AGAIN ETHICS AND LAW DONT ALWAYS GO HAND AND HAND and this is an instance of that

since you have no basis for your claims other then your opinion and mine is based in biology and logic sorry hoss you loss again in this debate...

yep and the law about abortion may change in the future

right now we've decided that the woman get's the choice over what happens in her body and the man get's no choice

now answer the question

you dont' want to control the womans body but you do claim some ownership and therefore some control of the fetus

how does that work?

[tonymctones]

yep and the law about abortion may change in the future

right now we've decided that the woman get's the choice over what happens in her body and the man get's no choice

now answer the question

you dont' want to control the womans body but you do claim some ownership and therefore some control of the fetus

how does that work?

no I was showing you the idiocy of your POV if the man is half owner of the child the man is also half owner of the fetus...since the law has deemed that the women has her own choice independent of the man the man should also have a choice independent of the women.

your opinion is based on a BIASED LAW youve said as much yet you still dont think there is anything wrong with it?

[Straw Man]

WOW YOUR A FUKING IDIOT I NEVER SAID I WANTED CONTROL OVER THE FETUS AGAIN SHOW ME WHERE I SAID THAT?

in lue of being able to control the fetus the father should be presented with other options is my point...

ok - so you've previously agreed that the man and the woman are not in equivalent situations (she's pregnant and he's not) and you think, although they are not in equal situations that some sort of eqaulity MUST be forced into the situation and in your mind that equality is the right of the man to walk away from any financial responsibility after the child is born.   Didn't we reach that conclusion about 2 pages ago. 

I summed up what I thought your position was and asked you to correct anything I had wrong.  We've just wasted 2 pages:

Tony, unlike you, I have a job and can't spend all day on this board going over the same argument over and over.   
I'm going to waste about 10 minutes of my lunch on this.

Why did you post those links?  You say you didn't post them to prove your case legally and that makes sense because every instance cited  was dismissed, rejected etc...  So why did you post it?  Did you post it to show that other people who have made same claims as you have been rejected but that just the fact that they exist has some signficance?.   Just the fact that someone shares your opinion means something?? 

Didn't we already agree that there are inequalities in the whole situation?

Man and Woman both know the rules of the game before the fact and are equal at that point

Once a pregnancy occurs the woman has the greater burden and therefore has choice that you don't get. 

After the kid is born you both now have equal responsibility to support the kid. 

From what I can tell from you ramblings you think that because she has a choices that you dont' get that somehow you're owed some equivalent opportunity which you've defined as the opportunity to walk away from any financial responsibility

Additionally, you seem to try to support your case by saying if you are not given that equivalent opportunity then you should have the right to control the womans body (either forcing her to get an abortion or forcing her to bear the child).   

Please clarify any part of your argument that I have wrong so far

I'll check back later tonight

[tonymctones]

ok - so you've previously agreed that the man and the woman are not in equivalent situations (she's pregnant and he's not) and you think, although they are not in equal situations that some sort of eqaulity MUST be forced into the situation and in your mind that equality is the right of the man to walk away from any financial responsibility after the child is born.   Didn't we reach that conclusion about 2 pages ago. 

I summed up what I thought your position was and asked you to correct anything I had wrong.  We've just wasted 2 pages:

LOL this situation is very similiar to Affirmative Action to level the playing field you stifle another persons rights. I guess you are ok with that then? 

The situations are unequal straw HOWEVER BOTH OF THEM KNEW THAT GOING INTO CONSENTUAL SEX but the women is the only person in the equation with the choice or options the man must sit there...how on earth can you think that is even remotely fair?

[Straw Man]

LOL this situation is very similiar to Affirmative Action to level the playing field you stifle another persons rights. I guess you are ok with that then? 

The situations are unequal straw HOWEVER BOTH OF THEM KNEW THAT GOING INTO CONSENTUAL SEX but the women is the only person in the equation with the choice or options the man must sit there...how on earth can you think that is even remotely fair?

how is this similar in any way to affirmative action?

you're the one thinking the playing field (the womans womb I suppose) needs to be leveled.

We've only looked at your view of one outcome of the situation (woman wants kid and man doesn't)

What if the woman doesn't want the pregnancy and the man does

how should be man be compensated for his lack of control over his half of the fetus?

[tonymctones]

how is this similar in any way to affirmative action?

you're the one thinking the playing field (the womans womb I suppose) needs to be leveled.

We've only looked at your view of one outcome of the situation (woman wants kid and man doesn't)

What if the woman doesn't want the pregnancy and the man does

how should be man be compensated for his lack of control over his half of the fetus?

Actually Im not the only one brain child that was my point in posting the links I did this is a national concern simply b/c its not on your front burner doesnt mean its not a concern for many others DO SOME RESEARCH

LOL goodness fucking gracious straw ive never said anything about not giving the women a choice or giving the man a choice in what the women does so PLEASE SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THAT

perhaps she should pay him a nominal fee and the same for the man if he doesnt want on and she does...

[Straw Man]

Actually Im not the only one brain child that was my point in posting the links I did this is a national concern simply b/c its not on your front burner doesnt mean its not a concern for many others DO SOME RESEARCH

LOL goodness fucking gracious straw ive never said anything about not giving the women a choice or giving the man a choice in what the women does so PLEASE SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THAT

perhaps she should pay him a nominal fee and the same for the man if he doesnt want on and she does...

wow - you have short fuse.  It's kind of funny watching you blow your stack over a conversation on a message board

Ok - so you think maybe the woman should pay the man some nominal fee if she wants to abort the fetus and he wants it?

who decides the value? Are some more valuable than others.

what would prevent the man from saying he wants the kid just so he can get the fee (especially when he knows the woman will abort)

if the woman can't pay the fee then should she be forced to have the kid

who should manage this whole system of debit and credits
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do you see how ridiculous that idea is?

[tonymctones]

wow - you have short fuse.  It's kind of funny watching you blow your stack over a conversation on a message board

Ok - so you think maybe the woman should pay the man some nominal fee if she wants to abort the fetus and he wants it?

who decides the value? Are some more valuable than others.

what would prevent the man from saying he wants the kid just so he can get the fee (especially when he knows the woman will abort)

if the woman can't pay the fee then should she be forced to have the kid

who should manage this whole system of debit and credits
.
.
.
.
.
do you see how ridiculous that idea is?

LOL first of all your getting caught up on details the very fact though youre entertaining the idea means you do see the inequality that there is in this situation

to answer you question the way that it is implemented isnt whats important right now its recognizing the bias of the law thats important...

the court could decide same as they courts do now...no straw there is nothing ridiculous about this idea whats ridiculous is you citing the law as justification I guess you would have been A OK with slavery if you had lived when it was legal...

[Straw Man]

LOL first of all your getting caught up on details the very fact though youre entertaining the idea means you do see the inequality that there is in this situation

to answer you question the way that it is implemented isnt whats important right now its recognizing the bias of the law thats important...

the court could decide same as they courts do now...no straw there is nothing ridiculous about this idea whats ridiculous is you citing the law as justification I guess you would have been A OK with slavery if you had lived when it was legal...

Ok so you think the law is biased in favor of the woman right?

you also think the man has a 50% claim in the fetus and his ownership interests are being restricted

is this correct?

[tonymctones]

Ok so you think the law is biased in favor of the woman right?

you also think the man has a 50% claim in the fetus and his ownership interests are being restricted

is this correct?

LOL i like the way you put it 
Im not saying the man has a claim to the fetus as in he should be able to have a say in her actions but biologically and logically the fetus is half his if the fetus isnt half his how is the child half his?

ill say yes even though its worded in such a way to lend itself to your idiotic arguement that I think a man should have a say over what the women does which ive never said or implied...

[Straw Man]

LOL i like the way you put it 
Im not saying the man has a claim to the fetus as in he should be able to have a say in her actions but biologically and logically the fetus is half his if the fetus isnt half his how is the child half his?

ill say yes even though its worded in such a way to lend itself to your idiotic arguement that I think a man should have a say over what the women does which ive never said or implied...

if, as you say, "the fetus is biologically and logically half his" then why shouldn't he bear half the biological burden of nourishing the fetus.  Why shouldn't he take half the drain on his body, half the physical discomfort, half the health risk (including the risk of death).  Why shouldn't he get half the morning sicknesness.

Afterall it's biologically half his right?

Your whole issue is about making this a fair equation right?

How should the woman be compensated for the unfair burden she must bear?

[tonymctones]

if, as you say, "the fetus is biologically and logically half his" then why shouldn't he bear half the biological burden of nourishing the fetus.  Why shouldn't he take half the drain on his body, half the physical discomfort, half the health risk (including the risk of death).  Why shouldn't he get half the morning sicknesness.

Afterall it's biologically half his right?

Your whole issue is about making this a fair equation right?

How should the woman be compensated for the unfair burden she must bear?

Logically if that was feasible i would agree to it if he as she does, get a choice in the matter

if you want to do away with the mans choice fine do away with the womens, you cant logically deny one and give the other a choice when biologically they are both owners of the fetus.

If like you want to say the fetus is soley hers then the child is soley hers...

now ive answered you questions so you answer mine how logically is the fetus only hers but the child the comes from the fetus hers and his?

[Straw Man]

Logically if that was feasible i would agree to it if he as she does, get a choice in the matter

if you want to do away with the mans choice fine do away with the womens, you cant logically deny one and give the other a choice when biologically they are both owners of the fetus.

If like you want to say the fetus is soley hers then the child is soley hers...

now ive answered you questions so you answer mine how logically is the fetus only hers but the child the comes from the fetus hers and his?

bahahahahah !!!

you and you logic are fucking funny

OK - so you LOGICALLY AGREE

let's get on to the point about compensation

how should the woman be compensated for this inequity?

I'm going to go with giving her sole choice and discretion over her own body

what do you think?

[tonymctones]

bahahahahah !!!

you and you logic are fucking funny

OK - so you LOGICALLY AGREE

let's get on to the point about compensation

how should the woman be compensated for this inequity?

I'm going to go with giving her sole choice and discretion over her own body

what do you think?

the problem in doing that is it also gives her sole choice and determinative action in someone elses life...

Im fine with giving her sole choice and discretion over her body, WHERE HAVE I STATED OTHERWISE? THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LIMITING HER OPTIONS IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH GIVING OPTIONS TO THE MAN get that shit through you thick fuking skulllllllllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You still havent answer the question that ive posed to you MULTIPLE TIMES

how is a fetus soley hers but the child the comes from the fetus both of theirs?

Like I said the implementation is not whats important recognizing the inequality under the law is whats important at this moment. If you agree there is inequality under the law then say so and we can move on to implementation.

[Straw Man]

the problem in doing that is it also gives her sole choice and determinative action in someone elses life...

Im fine with giving her sole choice and discretion over her body, WHERE HAVE I STATED OTHERWISE? THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LIMITING HER OPTIONS IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH GIVING OPTIONS TO THE MAN get that shit through you thick fuking skulllllllllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You still havent answer the question that ive posed to you MULTIPLE TIMES

how is a fetus soley hers but the child the comes from the fetus both of theirs?

Like I said the implementation is not whats important recognizing the inequality under the law is whats important at this moment. If you agree there is inequality under the law then say so and we can move on to implementation.

I thought we had already agreed that the fetus contains genetic material from the man

right?

[tonymctones]

I thought we had already agreed that the fetus contains genetic material from the man

right?

so why does the women get a choice of what to do with something that is half the mans but the man gets no choice in the situation at all?

so do you agree that there are inequalities under the law so that we can move on to implementation?

[Straw Man]

so why does the women get a choice of what to do with something that is half the mans but the man gets no choice in the situation at all?

so do you agree that there are inequalities under the law so that we can move on to implementation?

why don't just review what we both agree about

1.  both man and woman contribute genetic material

2.  the act of pregnancy creates an inequality between man and woman

if we can agree on that we can move on otherwise there's no point in wasting any more time

[tonymctones]

why don't just review what we both agree about

1.  both man and woman contribute genetic material

2.  the act of pregnancy creates an inequality between man and woman

if we can agree on that we can move on otherwise there's no point in wasting any more time

1. agreed
2. a voluntary inequality, agreed

you agree that there is an inequality in the law with respect to abortion and parental rights?

[Straw Man]

1. agreed
2. a voluntary inequality, agreed

you agree that there is an inequality in the law with respect to abortion and parental rights?

what is the inequity you see?

[tonymctones]

what is the inequity you see?

I see the voluntary inequality of the sex leading to pregnancy and it being soley on the women and also the inequality of women given a choice and not men.

What inequality do you see?

[Straw Man]

I see the voluntary inequality of the sex leading to pregnancy and it being soley on the women and also the inequality of women given a choice and not men.

What inequality do you see?

the girl is pregnant and the guy is not