Author Topic: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death  (Read 16233 times)

tonymctones

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2009, 01:57:52 PM »
I already graduated university, thanks.

Yes, it's perfectly fair. One a child is born, it's a human being with parents. Those parents are responsible for it and that's the way the law works. The way it is applied is fair.

Abortion is separate issue, with the woman bearing the entire burden, with potential risks to her health. Were the situation reversed, and you, as a man, were required to bear those health risks, you wouldn't even remotely be arguing this silly premise. And btw, many abortions are performed precisely BECAUSE the man doesn't want the responsibility, so what's the problem?

And I have no personal beef with you. No reason for me to cheerlead posts I agree with, is there? What I get from your posts is that you're against abortion, but you don't think men should bear any responsibility for children once they're born. Welcome to the 1950s.

apparently you never took a logic class?

You guy are serious about distorting my point and attacking it you know thats called a straw man one of those things they teach in logic class...

Im not advocating that men shouldnt take care of their children I believe they should. Do you advocate abortion simply b/c you are pro choice? of course not now knock off your ignorance and actually try to understand what im saying.

I agree dee that the women takes on all the risk of the pregnancy etc...and which is why i think its fair for the man to have to pay for some of that cost. That doesnt mean its fair to force him to pay child support of 18 yrs for a child he didnt want when the women can decide that she will have an abortion even if the man wants to keep the child...

Do some research on this topic all of you and you will see that this isnt me just being crazy and stupid but an actually legit topic.

Mark my words sooner or later in this progressive equal rights movement this issue will become more and more prevalent.

Skip8282

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2009, 02:02:54 PM »
NOT AT ALLLLLLLLLLL
Im not argueing against abortion although I am personally against it the point im making has nothing to do with a womens right to choose but everything with a mans right to choose.

Like I said this isnt about abortion other then it being the how the issue is being expressed this is about equal rights...

A man does have the right to choose.  He can choose abstinence.  But, once he makes the decision to get laid, he knows there are risks and responsibilities for his actions.  And the man's right's end where the woman's begin - at her body.

Straw Man

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2009, 02:03:44 PM »
apparently you never took a logic class?

I always get a laugh out of your logic professor act.

how about you dazzle us with your logic instead of talking about it

Deedee

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2009, 02:05:57 PM »
apparently you never took a logic class?

You guy are serious about distorting my point and attacking it you know thats called a straw man one of those things they teach in logic class...

Im not advocating that men shouldnt take care of their children I believe they should. Do you advocate abortion simply b/c you are pro choice? of course not now knock off your ignorance and actually try to understand what im saying.

I agree dee that the women takes on all the risk of the pregnancy etc...and which is why i think its fair for the man to have to pay for some of that cost. That doesnt mean its fair to force him to pay child support of 18 yrs for a child he didnt want when the women can decide that she will have an abortion even if the man wants to keep the child...

Do some research on this topic all of you and you will see that this isnt me just being crazy and stupid but an actually legit topic.

Mark my words sooner or later in this progressive equal rights movement this issue will become more and more prevalent.

The law doesn't really care about the mistakes people make and whether or not there was condom available that one fateful night. It cares about the welfare of children, and keeping mistakes out of the taxpayer's domain. In this way, it works great.

Maybe you should take a simple course in history. The way it used to work was that there was no abortion was available, and women had sole discretion as to how to work out their problems. There was often a lot of misery involved.

Gradually as men wanted control over what happened to their children, they fought for equal rights. That means dads get equal dibs over their children, and rights to them as well as financial aid from the mother. It works out when the father wants his kid and can fight the mother or potential adoption. It also comes with a financial burden, for BOTH parents. If you want to repeal those rights that men fought for, go ahead. But you can't have it both ways.  You can't demand to stay or walk away at will.

tonymctones

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2009, 02:08:54 PM »
I always get a laugh out of your logic professor act.

how about you dazzle us with your logic instead of talking about it
I already have with no rebuttle

what logical basis do you have to give the women the right to choose and not the man?

Straw Man

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2009, 02:10:12 PM »
I already have with no rebuttle

what logical basis do you have to give the women the right to choose and not the man?

you and I have had this discusion before

it's her body

Ok Spock - It's your turn

tonymctones

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2009, 02:14:34 PM »
The law doesn't really care about the mistakes people make and whether or not there was condom available that one fateful night. It cares about the welfare of children, and keeping mistakes out of the taxpayer's domain. In this way, it works great.

Maybe you should take a simple course in history. The way it used to work was that there was no abortion was available, and women had sole discretion as to how to work out their problems. There was often a lot of misery involved.

Gradually as men wanted control over what happened to their children, they fought for equal rights. That means dads get equal dibs over their children, and rights to them as well as financial aid from the mother. It works out when the father wants his kid and can fight the mother or potential adoption. It also comes with a financial burden, for BOTH parents. If you want to repeal those rights that men fought for, go ahead. But you can't have it both ways.  You can't demand to stay or walk away at will.


In case you havent noticed im argueing from a fairness or equality stand point in which yes the constitution you know "the law of the land" garuntees...

the law isnt always logical or fair as in this case im sure you were against the laws decades ago that forbid women to vote etc...

Im not demanding anything do you seriously read my posts?

all im saying is that the man should have the right to choose same as the women, in the mans case it would be in the form of less child support or no child support. Perhaps we should force the women to pay the man for 18 yrs in the case that she wants an abortion and he doesnt, does that seem fair? OF COURSE NOT so how can you justify the other way around?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/01/opinion/01conley.html?ei=5090&en=e0b6748a2c82b86d&ex=1291093200&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dalton-conley/why-my-mans-right-to-choo_b_11883.html
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1173414,00.html?iid=chix-sphere

again do some research instead of warping my posts

tonymctones

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2009, 02:16:19 PM »
you and I have had this discusion before

it's her body

Ok Spock - It's your turn
and im fine with that as this conversation goes, why does that justify him not being able to have what they call a financial abortion?

thats a justification as to why she gets to choose to have or not have an abortion you still havent justified why you are denying the mans right to a male abortion...

Skip8282

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2009, 02:22:37 PM »
and im fine with that as this conversation goes, why does that justify him not being able to have what they call a financial abortion?

thats a justification as to why she gets to choose to have or not have an abortion you still havent justified why you are denying the mans right to a male abortion...

Because you have to own up to your responsibilities, and a man knows that may be a CONSEQUENCE OF HIS ACTIONS.

LurkerNoMore

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2009, 02:24:49 PM »
Tony unless you can pull some dazzling "logic" out of your ass right now and stop talking in circles or attempting to split hairs, this would be otherwise a good time to quit the argument while you are still behind.

Deedee

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2009, 02:25:12 PM »
In case you havent noticed im argueing from a fairness or equality stand point in which yes the constitution you know "the law of the land" garuntees...

the law isnt always logical or fair as in this case im sure you were against the laws decades ago that forbid women to vote etc...

Im not demanding anything do you seriously read my posts?

all im saying is that the man should have the right to choose same as the women, in the mans case it would be in the form of less child support or no child support. Perhaps we should force the women to pay the man for 18 yrs in the case that she wants an abortion and he doesnt, does that seem fair? OF COURSE NOT so how can you justify the other way around?



Pay him for 18 years for something that doesn't exist? And you're telling me to take a logics course?  :-X

Look, back in the day, men had no responsibilities. When women got themselves preggers outside of marriage it was their prob and men had no financial burden or rights. It was YOU guys who fought for equal rights to the kid and now you have them. All rights, including financial burden rights.

While a woman is pregnant, she bears all the health risks and what some would argue "undue burden" and so it is within her rights currently to either bear the risks or not. Same as you can decide whether to get that brain tumor removed, or die. Whether to get knee surgery or suffer. Once a child is born, those bets are off and those responsible morally have to pay so it can survive.

Women's eggs just kind of sit there in her body, not bothering anybody. It's the "essence" of man :D that goes splattering everywhere, causing problems in the lives of others. Women have a choice to have an abortion. You have the right to keep your "essence" from splattering where it shouldn't go. Each gender has a choice.

tonymctones

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2009, 02:26:01 PM »
Because you have to own up to your responsibilities, and a man knows that may be a CONSEQUENCE OF HIS ACTIONS.
and a women doesnt? why is it simply the mans responsibility and not the womens? we live in a country where laws apply to everyone EQUALLY does that seem equal to you.

I totally agree with you skip I would give anything for a child of mine but set aside your personal views and biases and take a step back and look at it objectively.

why does the women not share the same responsibility you put onto the man?

tonymctones

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2009, 02:30:43 PM »
Pay him for 18 years for something that doesn't exist? And you're telling me to take a logics course?  :-X

Look, back in the day, men had no responsibilities. When women got themselves preggers outside of marriage it was their prob and men had no financial burden or rights. It was YOU guys who fought for equal rights to the kid and now you have them. All rights, including financial burden rights.

While a woman is pregnant, she bears all the health risks and what some would argue "undue burden" and so it is within her rights currently to either bear the risks or not. Same as you can decide whether to get that brain tumor removed, or die. Whether to get knee surgery or suffer. Once a child is born, those bets are off and those responsible morally have to pay so it can survive.

Women's eggs just kind of sit there in her body, not bothering anybody. It's the "essence" of man :D that goes splattering everywhere, causing problems in the lives of others. Women have a choice to have an abortion. You have the right to keep your "essence" from splattering where it shouldn't go. Each gender has a choice.

obviously your idiotic ass didnt read it b/c i said that wouldnt be fair brain child again try reading my posts

No we didnt get equal rights dee we got some rights for giving up other rights thats not equal sweety.

I agree with you guys in this conversation about the womens right to choose, the problem is it was her and her decisino alone and that shouldnt effect the man logically. Yes there is a child involved which is why i stated perhaps a reduced child support etc...dont bring morality into this or abortion is taken off the table in most cases so lets stick to logic.

LOL so what your saying is the women dont really want to have sex with the men its the men who rape them?

tonymctones

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2009, 02:33:03 PM »
you and I have had this discusion before


yes we have straw and what it boils down to for you is that life isnt fair, which i agree with but that is basically saying that ya its not right that the women gets the right to choose and a man doesnt.

do some research if you have some time you will find that there are many court cases addressing this and sooner or later like I said this will be on the national stage.

Straw Man

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2009, 02:35:05 PM »
yes we have straw and what it boils down to for you is that life isnt fair, which i agree with but that is basically saying that ya its not right that the women gets the right to choose and a man doesnt.

do some research if you have some time you will find that there are many court cases addressing this and sooner or later like I said this will be on the national stage.

if you know of a court case why don't you just mention it or link it.

Here's a question for you:   Once a woman is pregnant are the man and woman in an equal situation?

tonymctones

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2009, 02:39:16 PM »
if you know of a court case why don't you just mention it or link it.

Here's a question for you:   Once a woman is pregnant are the man and woman in an equal situation?
if you click on some of the links i posted they which apparently nobody did they talk about some cases.

Depends on what you mean by situation? physically? of course not, responsibility? shit yes, financially? shit no, equal rights? FUCK NO

Deedee

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2009, 02:43:58 PM »

why does the women not share the same responsibility you put onto the man?

She does share the same responsibility. The person with custody puts a hell of a lot more effort into raising a child... financially, and in every other way. A couple of hundred bucks a month doesn't even come close to that. Is that really your argument?

I did read what you said. It seems unfair on some level, but because abortion and birth are both technically medical procedures, you can't arbitrarily screw with someone's body. Unless if you want to propose forced abortion, which I suppose is no different than forced birth. And then you're taking away the fundamental rights of women over their own autonomy. Same like you would be foaming at the mouth if someone wanted to sterilize men at will, or force you to have surgery you didn't want.

I won't copy and past your other post, but where did you get that I think all sex is rape? I was just pointing out your choice.

Every one of your arguments puts ALL the onus for sex and bringing children into the world back on women, even though you think you're arguing for equal rights. Your idiotic ass can't see that though. What's weird is you GUYS fought for rights to your children, and here you want to get rid of these rights again. Good luck.


Straw Man

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2009, 02:45:57 PM »
if you click on some of the links i posted they which apparently nobody did they talk about some cases.

Depends on what you mean by situation? physically? of course not, responsibility? shit yes, financially? shit no, equal rights? FUCK NO

sorry, I didn't see those. 

I'll check them out

Straw Man

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2009, 02:46:50 PM »
if you click on some of the links i posted they which apparently nobody did they talk about some cases.

Depends on what you mean by situation? physically? of course not, responsibility? shit yes, financially? shit no, equal rights? FUCK NO

so you agree they are not in a equal situation yet you are demanding equality?

Skip8282

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2009, 02:50:25 PM »
and a women doesnt? why is it simply the mans responsibility and not the womens? we live in a country where laws apply to everyone EQUALLY does that seem equal to you.

I totally agree with you skip I would give anything for a child of mine but set aside your personal views and biases and take a step back and look at it objectively.

why does the women not share the same responsibility you put onto the man?


Of course a woman does.  But just because a woman has an easy way of opting out and a man doesn't, does not mean there are no equal rights.  It just means that a man should exercise better discretion BEFORE sex and be better prepared for the consequences.  It seems like you're upset just because a woman gets to make the choice AFTER sex.

tonymctones

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2009, 02:52:13 PM »
She does share the same responsibility. The person with custody puts a hell of a lot more effort into raising a child... financially, and in every other way. A couple of hundred bucks a month doesn't even come close to that. Is that really your argument?

I did read what you said. It seems unfair on some level, but because abortion and birth are both technically medical procedures, you can't arbitrarily screw with someone's body. Unless if you want to propose forced abortion, which I suppose is no different than forced birth. And then you're taking away the fundamental rights of women over their own autonomy. Same like you would be foaming at the mouth if someone wanted to sterilize men at will, or force you to have surgery you didn't want.

I won't copy and past your other post, but where did you get that I think all sex is rape? I was just pointing out your choice.

Every one of your arguments puts ALL the onus for sex and bringing children into the world back on women, even though you think you're arguing for equal rights. Your idiotic ass can't see that though. What's weird is you GUYS fought for rights to your children, and here you want to get rid of these rights again. Good luck.
Yes dee i agree that the person with custody takes the brunt of the finacial responsibility but your missing the point she CHOOOOOOOOSE to take on those responsibilities the man may have not choose.

At LEAST you now understand that there is certainly an unfairness now Im certainly not proposing what should be done only ideas. The fact that there is an unfairness is what needs to be addressed how it is addressed needs to be done in a equally fair manner.

basically you said that it was the man that went around fucking women and thats why ppl get pregnant you tried to guise it in biological terms but that was the just of your statement.

No No NO NONONONONONONONONO again you are misunderstanding what im saying, it is both of their responsibilities im not putting it on one person more then the other. I actually believe that the man should pay for his child etc. he was equally responsible for that child the problem is you cannot logically give one party the right to choose and deny the other party when they are equally responsible.

Im simply pointing out the unfairness in the system again im not advocting men to stop paying child support only for equal rights under the law.

if you still feel im putting the onus onto the women please explain why?

tonymctones

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2009, 02:57:49 PM »
so you agree they are not in a equal situation yet you are demanding equality?
i said physically its not the same, thats they only arena in which the women should have more say over the man. Since the man cannot have a say there he should have the option to walk away same as the women again financial abortion. Now I realize this isnt plausible as there is a child involved so perhaps a reduced child support. Ppl always say well he made the decision to have sex with that women and should live with the consequences well she made the decision SOLEY ON HER OWN to have the kid or not and should live with the consequences. Since the man isnt involved in the decision he should be given an equal decision of his own logically.

again why can you give her the option to walk away but deny the man logically?

Straw Man

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2009, 03:04:58 PM »
i said physically its not the same, thats they only arena in which the women should have more say over the man. Since the man cannot have a say there he should have the option to walk away same as the women again financial abortion. Now I realize this isnt plausible as there is a child involved so perhaps a reduced child support. Ppl always say well he made the decision to have sex with that women and should live with the consequences well she made the decision SOLEY ON HER OWN to have the kid or not and should live with the consequences. Since the man isnt involved in the decision he should be given an equal decision of his own logically.  again why can you give her the option to walk away but deny the man logically?

when she walks away (has an abortion) both parties are relieved of any financial burden

she get's the right to make that decision because it's her body

if there is a child then both should share the burden

tonymctones

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2009, 03:08:28 PM »

Of course a woman does.  But just because a woman has an easy way of opting out and a man doesn't, does not mean there are no equal rights.  It just means that a man should exercise better discretion BEFORE sex and be better prepared for the consequences.  It seems like you're upset just because a woman gets to make the choice AFTER sex.
skip reread the bold part bro, thats the first thing ive seen you type that wasnt a good comment. You understand that you just said that there arent equal rights...

Why shouldnt a women be held to the same standards as men? again we live in a country where laws are applied equally this is not equal.

Im not upset bro, i have no kids and have never gotten a girl pregnant its simply funny and can be irritating when you point out this unfairness and inequality under the law and ppl let their personal views prevent them from being objective and actually taking my statements into account.

Go back and read a little bit of this thread skip youre the only person who didnt distort my posts in one way or another. This goes to the heart of the problem this is a very touchy subject emotionally for a number of ppl and this prevents alot of ppl from seeing differing points of view.

Of course i think a man should take care of their children, I personally would never want an abortion unless they girls health was in danger and would do anything to take care of my children.

Im not advocating abortion or men walking away simply trying to open eyes bro to the unfairness of it all.

we pride ourselves with being fair and just especially the feminist movement in this country yet how many feminist do you know that advocate a mans right to choose?

Deedee

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Re: Abortion Fight Shifts to Neb. After Tiller Death
« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2009, 03:08:55 PM »
Yes dee i agree that the person with custody takes the brunt of the finacial responsibility but your missing the point she CHOOOOOOOOSE to take on those responsibilities the man may have not choose.

At LEAST you now understand that there is certainly an unfairness now Im certainly not proposing what should be done only ideas. The fact that there is an unfairness is what needs to be addressed how it is addressed needs to be done in a equally fair manner.

basically you said that it was the man that went around fucking women and thats why ppl get pregnant you tried to guise it in biological terms but that was the just of your statement.

No No NO NONONONONONONONONO again you are misunderstanding what im saying, it is both of their responsibilities im not putting it on one person more then the other. I actually believe that the man should pay for his child etc. he was equally responsible for that child the problem is you cannot logically give one party the right to choose and deny the other party when they are equally responsible.

Im simply pointing out the unfairness in the system again im not advocting men to stop paying child support only for equal rights under the law.

if you still feel im putting the onus onto the women please explain why?

There is unfairness on both sides... the woman bears all the health risks and the burden of pregnancy, while the man can walk away at any time but maybe not without financial burden.

There is no way around it, unless if we go back to "old ways," where women get all rights and all problems. That is what you've been proposing with your arguments.  If you are now changing your opinion, and arguing from a philosophical POV only, yes, it seems unfair that if you make a whoopsie error with a religious fundamentalist, or whatever, you're saddled with a kid you don't want because you can't force anyone to have an abortion. However, as someone said, you do have the choice to try as hard as hell not to make a mistake.

The way it is now, is the best the law can do to make sure EVERYONE has rights, and also that everyone pays for their mistakes. Not the taxpayer.

You're making a big deal out of nothing. Most people who find themselves preggers where one doesn't want it, end up having an abortion.  People who are civilized can divide up custody so there is no financial payout, just shared responsibility. Happens every day. But isn't always possible. So, the one (male or female) who doesn't want the daily responsibility of raising the kid, writes out a check every month.