Beck vs Evangelical leader

[Butterbean]

what is a "material" necessity?

I'm talking about the poor, the homeless, the sick, etc...

you know what I'm talking about right.

McWay even listed the part of the bible I am referring to in a earlier post

you know what I'm talking about right?

Which post?

(sorry the board is going sloooooooooooooooooooooo oooow)

ARe you still asking me what Jesus was all (mostly) about?  I believe he was all (mostly)about saving sinners.

[MCWAY]

It sounds to me like you're admitting we're not a Christian Nation?

May I suggest some Q-Tips!!  

McWay - what is the consequence in the Bible for the individual Christian who fails to help the poor, sick, etc..?

I believe I answered that by reference to Matt. 25. Those who do not have Christ's spirit and display such to the aforementioned folk, will not be recognized By Christ. Hence, they are accursed.

[Straw Man]

Which post?

(sorry the board is going sloooooooooooooooooooooo oooow)

ARe you still asking me what Jesus was all (mostly) about?  I believe he was all (mostly)about saving sinners.

yeah - it's really slow for me too and has been for a long time.

No offense - but I know you're a christian and which means you might have a rationalization for why this passage doesn't mean what it appears to say.  It seesm like there are at least two types of christians.  The ones that embrace the words of Jesus and those that rationalize, parse, and restate the words so that it supports their preconceived feelings.   I'm not sure which type you are.

The Sheep and the Goats
 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 41]"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' [/font]
 44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

[Butterbean]

yeah - it's really slow for me too and has been for a long time.

I just went and dried my hair waiting for my last post to post

[Butterbean]

No offense - but I know you're a christian and which means you might have a rationalization for why this passage doesn't mean what it appears to say.  It seesm like there are at least two types of christians.  The ones that embrace the words of Jesus and those that rationalize, parse, and restate the words so that it supports their preconceived feelings.   I'm not sure which type you are.

The Sheep and the Goats
 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 41]"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' [/font]
 44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Straw, did you read the chapter previous to this one and the beginning of 25?

The previous text shows He is speaking about people that survived the tribulation.  He is speaking about how they treated the Jews during this time.  If a person went through the tribulation and treated Jews well, they were (likely) believers in Christ.  Belief/grace = salvation.

[Straw Man]

Straw, did you read the chapter previous to this one and the beginning of 25?

The previous text shows He is speaking about people that survived the tribulation.  He is speaking about how they treated the Jews during this time.  If a person went through the tribulation and treated Jews well, they were (likely) believers in Christ.  Belief/grace = salvation.

so you're saying "the least of these" only applies to the Jews and no one else?

[Butterbean]

Straw,

I think what it boils down to is that a lot of us believe that people should be able to give to the charity cases that we want to give to, and not be forced to give to people that we may believe (mistakenly or no) can help themselves but don't seem to want to.

We have different homeless shelters in our town.   Although there are need for all kinds, we donate the most to the ones that work to end homelessness through remedial classes, business courses, resume writing, etc.  These are the ones that also do not allow people to be actively using drugs or alcohol while staying there. These are the ones that also share the gospel message w/people.

NOw, maybe you would never choose to donate to a charity that shares the gospel message.  Don't you think that should be your right?  I think it should be your right.

As a person who grew up w/a girl who was enabled by her mother to do whatever she wanted w/no consequences, I've seen 3 lives almost destroyed by this, including hers.  We all have differing views on things and I've never been a parent, but I have seen that enabling someone like this is destructive and not helpful.





You may also find more of what I posted earlier from 1 Timothy 5 as informative:



No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.

As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.

If any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those widows who are really in need.

[Straw Man]

Straw,

I think what it boils down to is that a lot of us believe that people should be able to give to the charity cases that we want to give to, and not be forced to give to people that we may believe (mistakenly or no) can help themselves but don't seem to want to.
We have different homeless shelters in our town.   Although there are need for all kinds, we donate the most to the ones that work to end homelessness through remedial classes, business courses, resume writing, etc.  These are the ones that also do not allow people to be actively using drugs or alcohol while staying there. These are the ones that also share the gospel message w/people.
NOw, maybe you would never choose to donate to a charity that shares the gospel message.  Don't you think that should be your right?  I think it should be your right.
As a person who grew up w/a girl who was enabled by her mother to do whatever she wanted w/no consequences, I've seen 3 lives almost destroyed by this, including hers.  We all have differing views on things and I've never been a parent, but I have seen that enabling someone like this is destructive and not helpful.

You may also find more of what I posted earlier from 1 Timothy 5 as informative:
is


No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.

As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.

If any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those wows who are really in need.

Stella - I asked a simple question

does this statement only apply to the Jews?

He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

[Butterbean]

so you're saying "the least of these" only applies to the Jews and no one else?

If you're asking if I think that people will be thrown into hell based solely on not helping others, the answer is no.

He's talking to people who survived the tribulation. 

Do I think that if people don't treat Jews well that they will go to hell based soley on that?  No. 

And yes in the above passage I think he is talking about the Jews because the literal translation of "all the nations" is "all the Gentiles."

The treatment of the Jews by these people would show the condition of their heart (believers).

[Straw Man]

If you're asking if I think that people will be thrown into hell based solely on not helping others, the answer is no.

He's talking to people who survived the tribulation. 

Do I think that if people don't treat Jews well that they will go to hell based soley on that?  No. 
And yes in the above passage I think he is talking about the Jews because the literal translation of "all the nations" is "all the Gentiles."

The treatment of the Jews by these people would show the condition of their heart (believers).

ok -  so you're saying that particular passage applies only in that particular situation and when Jesus is saying "the least of these" and " the least of these brothers of mine" that he is only referring to Jews and only in that unique circumstance (the Tribulation) which hasn't actually happened yet (as far as I know - you may know different) and he most definitely is not simply referring to other human beings on earth.

Do I understand you correctly?

[Butterbean]

Stella - I asked a simple question

does this statement only apply to the Jews?

He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Sorry bro, I went and cleaned some spots on the carpet trying to post my last post.

Hope it answered your above first question but now you are asking another I think?


Least of these (brothers of mine) = Jews

Your second question (first part) above= all unbelievers; righteous = believers

[Butterbean]

ok -  so you're saying that particular passage applies only in that particular situation and when Jesus is saying "the least of these" and " the least of these brothers of mine" that he is only referring to Jews and only in that unique circumstance (the Tribulation) which hasn't actually happened yet (as far as I know - you may know different) and he most definitely is not simply referring to other human beings on earth.

Do I understand you correctly?

ARe you trying to make a specific point?  Why not just state it and we can discuss it?


Here is what I believe = "You are saved by grace through faith and not of works." 

I believe the ones that "will go away to eternal punishment" are not condemned soley because they didn't "do good works," but that they were unbelievers. 

[Straw Man]

ARe you trying to make a specific point?  Why not just state it and we can discuss it?


Here is what I believe = "You are saved by grace through faith and not of works." 

I believe the ones that "will go away to eternal punishment" are not condemned soley because they didn't "do good works," but that they were unbelievers. 

I have stated it.

I asked if Jesus taught that when you fail to help others in need you go to "eternal punishment"

I think you've told me that is not correct  then I tried to clarify what you were telling me that the parable actually meant and you haven't actually told me whether I understand you correctly or not.

ok -  so you're saying that particular passage applies only in that particular situation and when Jesus is saying "the least of these" and " the least of these brothers of mine" that he is only referring to Jews and only in that unique circumstance (the Tribulation) which hasn't actually happened yet (as far as I know - you may know different) and he most definitely is not simply referring to other human beings on earth.

Do I understand you correctly?

[Butterbean]

I have stated it.

I asked if Jesus taught that when you fail to help others in need you go to "eternal punishment"

I think you've told me that is not correct  then I tried to clarify what you were telling me that the parable actually meant and you haven't actually told me whether I understand you correctly or not.

Sorry it's seemed so confusing.

Here is what I believe = "You are saved by grace through faith and not of works." 

I believe the ones that "will go away to eternal punishment" are not condemned soley because they didn't "do good works," but that they were unbelievers. 

To expand on my above post the scriptures in question do not negate state of heart as a requirement for the decision.

This may help also (if it doesn't just ignore it lol):

Matthew 7:15-21
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

[Straw Man]

Stella - I've asked you the question

can you answer in your own words?

[Butterbean]

Stella - I've asked you the question

can you answer in your own words?

Which question haven't I answered?

[Straw Man]

Which question haven't I answered?

3rd time is the charm?

ok -  so you're saying that particular passage applies only in that particular situation and when Jesus is saying "the least of these" and " the least of these brothers of mine" that he is only referring to Jews and only in that unique circumstance (the Tribulation) which hasn't actually happened yet (as far as I know - you may know different) and he most definitely is not simply referring to other human beings on earth.

Do I understand you correctly?

[Butterbean]

3rd time is the charm?

Oh dear lol

"ok -  so you're saying that particular passage applies only in that particular situation and when Jesus is saying "the least of these" and " the least of these brothers of mine" that he is only referring to Jews and only in that unique circumstance (the Tribulation) which hasn't actually happened yet (as far as I know - you may know different) and he most definitely is not simply referring to other human beings on earth.

Do I understand you correctly?"



Yes, like I said before, least of these brother of mine = Jews!  And how they were treated by others in the trib.  YES, in that particular passage I believe that is who He is talking about Yes!!  If you read starting in Chapter 24 you will see why.

Least of these (brothers of mine) = Jews

Your second question (first part) above= all unbelievers; righteous = believers

[Straw Man]

Oh dear lol

"ok -  so you're saying that particular passage applies only in that particular situation and when Jesus is saying "the least of these" and " the least of these brothers of mine" that he is only referring to Jews and only in that unique circumstance (the Tribulation) which hasn't actually happened yet (as far as I know - you may know different) and he most definitely is not simply referring to other human beings on earth.

Do I understand you correctly?"



Yes, like I said before, least of these brother of mine = Jews!  And how they were treated by others in the trib.  YES, in that particular passage I believe that is who He is talking about Yes!!  If you read starting in Chapter 24 you will see why.

ok so the only time I have to help those less fortunate is during the tribulation and even then I only have to help the jews

is that your interpretation of that passage?

and, even though Jesus said pretty explicitly that : 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

he doesn't really mean it:

If you're asking if I think that people will be thrown into hell based solely on not helping others, the answer is no.

He's talking to people who survived the tribulation. 

Do I think that if people don't treat Jews well that they will go to hell based soley on that?  No. 

[loco]

"When you look at the data," says Syracuse University professor Arthur Brooks, "it turns out the conservatives give about 30 percent more. And incidentally, conservative-headed families make slightly less money."

"But the idea that liberals give more is a myth. Of the top 25 states where people give an above-average percentage of their income, all but one (Maryland) were red -- conservative -- states in the last presidential election."

"The people who give one thing tend to be the people who give everything in America. You find that people who believe it's the government's job to make incomes more equal, are far less likely to give their money away."

"Conservatives are even 18 percent more likely to donate blood."

"Religious people are more likely to give to charity, and when they give, they give more money -- four times as much."

"Religious Americans are more likely to give to every kind of cause and charity, including explicitly nonreligious charities. Religious people give more blood; religious people give more to homeless people on the street."

Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Compassionate Conservatism
by Arthur C. Brooks
# ISBN-10: 0465008232
# ISBN-13: 978-0465008230

http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/24/america-philanthropy-income-oped-cx_ee_1226eaves.html

http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=2682730

http://townhall.com/Common/PrintPage.aspx?g=8c6b1ed7-dcab-4886-adf6-2c554cd0cebf&t=c

[Dos Equis]

ARe you trying to make a specific point?  Why not just state it and we can discuss it?

lol.  Good luck.   

[Soul Crusher]

lol.  Good luck.   

No kidding.  Arguing with Straw is like Chinese Water Torture.

[loco]

Nowhere in the Bible will you find Jesus or anybody teaching that the government should force anybody, through taxing or otherwise, to help those in need.

Giving handouts to those who simply don't want to work is not charity.  Giving handouts to those who simply don't want to work is doing harm both to them and to society.

The Bible is clear that if you do not want to work, then don't eat.

[Dos Equis]

No kidding.  Arguing with Straw is like Chinese Water Torture.

I rarely do.  Unless I'm really bored.   

[Butterbean]

ok so the only time I have to help those less fortunate is during the tribulation and even then I only have to help the jews

is that your interpretation of that passage?

and, even though Jesus said pretty explicitly that : 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

he doesn't really mean it:

I have no idea where you came up w/your first sentence.

And I already explained the rest to you.

lol.  Good luck.   

No kidding. 

Now I see.