Author Topic: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances  (Read 7735 times)

Dos Equis

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Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« on: May 31, 2010, 10:07:43 AM »
This is a better approach to the abortion issue (regardless of how these votes turn out) than relying on some court decision. 

Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
State-by-state campaign aims to cut foundation from Roe v. Wade
Posted: May 30, 2010
9:11 pm Eastern

By Rebekah Falkenstein
© 2010 WorldNetDaily

After securing ballot initiatives in Colorado and Mississippi, the nationwide effort to establish state constitutional rights for unborn babies is focused on Montana, where Planned Parenthood and the ACLU are pushing back.

The lead organization in the grass-roots effort, PersonhoodUSA, has until June 18 to secure a spot on Montana's fall election ballot for a state constitutional amendment defining an unborn baby as a person.

The movement that takes aim at the foundation of the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision has enjoyed stunning victories, including qualification for an amendment vote in Colorado this fall and in Mississippi in November 2011.

The personhood approach is based on Justice Harry Blackmun's statement in his majority Roe v. Wade opinion. Blackmun said the landmark case would collapse if "the fetus is a person," because the unborn's "right to life would then be guaranteed" by the Constitution.

PersonhoodUSA volunteers are working frantically to collect 48,000 more signatures to meet Montana's June 18 deadline but not without heavy opposition from pro-choice organizations.

Personhood USA co-founder Keith Mason told WND Planned Parenthood has launched a campaign in Montana to call every voter, "telling them this is going to hurt voters and not give women access to healthcare."

It's not the first time PersonhoodUSA has faced opposition in Montana. In 2008, Planned Parenthood staffers came to the state to pass out cards to voters at polling places.

Mason said his group plans to mobilize volunteers for the state's June 8 primary election.

Planned Parenthood and the American Civil Liberties Union "have teamed up," Mason said, to try to keep the personhood amendment off the ballot. "They don't want us to win."

Mason said the abortion-rights organizations have used dubious lawsuits to slow down the Personhood movement in Missouri, Nevada and Alaska.

"For us, if we're in a lawsuit, it's harder for us to mobilize," Mason said.

The personhood activists say their aims are to change laws state-by-state to re-establish the personhood of all Americans, to raise concern over the "dehumanization and murder" of a class of citizens and to encourage state governors and officials to resist federal advocacy for abortion.

WND previously reported Mississippi's Personhood movement overcame Mississippi Attorney General Jim Hood's decision to move up the deadline for collecting signatures. Some 130,000 names were submitted to secure a place on the November 2011 ballot.

The Mississippi Personhood Amendment states, "The term 'person' or 'persons' shall include every human being from the moment of fertilization, cloning or the functional equivalent thereof."

Recognition of PersonhoodUSA is skyrocketing across the nation as volunteers seek to gather signatures. As many as 32 states are expected to address some sort of "personhood" vote this year through a constitutional amendment or law.

Alaska, Arkansas, Hawaii, Indiana, Louisiana and Texas are among the states where prolife legislators have signaled their intent to introduce personhood statutes.

In March, Personhood Colorado signature collectors were forced into "overtime," Mason said, after state officials invalidated 20 percent of the names, partly because of an unannounced rule change. But in just 15 days, the activists collected 47,000 additional signatures on top of the 79,000 previously submitted.

The effort in California fell 77,000 signatures short of the 677,000 signatures needed to get on the ballot.

"We are gearing up for 2012," Mason told WND.

"As we look forward to beyond, we are looking forward to a big fight in Mississippi," he said.

An effort also is planned in North Dakota in 2011.

Mason said he is undaunted by the opposition to his movement, noting the power that comes from a grassroots movement the size of Personhood's. "We are getting volunteers on the street, stirring up the pot, and changing the culture," he said.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=160145

Skip8282

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2010, 03:18:45 PM »
This is a better approach to the abortion issue (regardless of how these votes turn out) than relying on some court decision. 


I disagree.  I think this is going to cause more problems and just push the issue for endless decades to come.  It essentially suggests that a fetus has rights and those rights may even trump the mothers.  Then there's the whole legal shit that will inevitably follow.  Lawsuits because the mother didn't take the right vitamins or proper supplements or didn't follow proper dietary procedures, etc.  I think it will be a never ending litany of suits, complaints, gripes, and groans.

Why can't they just leave women alone for fucks sake.

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2010, 04:00:32 PM »
People should get more education on Roe vs. Wade before glibly comparing it to stupid causes like this. I realize whoever choses the language usually has the advantage but the case, itself, isn't primarily about abortion like people love to pretend. Without that decision people would lose their decision making rights upon entering the hospital.

George Whorewell

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2010, 04:26:13 PM »
I agree.

This is a very bad idea.

There is no constitutional right to life for the unborn, nor should there be. This will open up a pandora's box of stupid ideas for equally stupid advocacy groups to seek having the constitution amended for the consitutional right for gay marriage, the right to life of animals/ trees/ rocks, etc. 

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2010, 04:30:33 PM »
I agree.

This is a very bad idea.

There is no constitutional right to life for the unborn, nor should there be. This will open up a pandora's box of stupid ideas for equally stupid advocacy groups to seek having the constitution amended for the consitutional right for gay marriage, the right to life of animals/ trees/ rocks, etc. 

Maybe the pre-conceived should have rights, too!!

We could legislate financial and health requirements before people are allowed to become parents.  :)

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2010, 04:35:47 PM »
Or chemically castrate and sterilize those with low iq's so they can't reproduce at all.

It's a Brave New World.

Dos Equis

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2010, 06:09:52 PM »

I disagree.  I think this is going to cause more problems and just push the issue for endless decades to come.  It essentially suggests that a fetus has rights and those rights may even trump the mothers.  Then there's the whole legal shit that will inevitably follow.  Lawsuits because the mother didn't take the right vitamins or proper supplements or didn't follow proper dietary procedures, etc.  I think it will be a never ending litany of suits, complaints, gripes, and groans.

Why can't they just leave women alone for fucks sake.

By "they" do you mean the courts, the legislature, or the voters? 

I actually agree with Barbara Bush, who said years ago that there will never be a political solution to the abortion question. 

It's a very complicated issue.  I don't think we should ignore the woman's bodily integrity issue or the fact we're dealing with a baby in the womb.  I'm not sure what the answer is.  But . . . if we're going to pass laws, regardless of what they are, I'd rather have them passed by the voters or our reps, and not by the men/women in black. 

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2010, 06:37:18 PM »
By "they" do you mean the courts, the legislature, or the voters? 

I actually agree with Barbara Bush, who said years ago that there will never be a political solution to the abortion question. 

It's a very complicated issue.  I don't think we should ignore the woman's bodily integrity issue or the fact we're dealing with a baby in the womb.  I'm not sure what the answer is.  But . . . if we're going to pass laws, regardless of what they are, I'd rather have them passed by the voters or our reps, and not by the men/women in black. 



Well in my state, the men & women in black are elected by the people so their opinions are just as valid as those of senators, representatives, governors, etc.  I see where you're going with case law, and I'm not typically a fan of judicial activism, but using a constitutional amendment (even at the state level) to define "personhood" will, in my opinion, lead to a plethora of problems and, perhaps, even more case law!

Strange you mention "years ago".  Years ago, I thought the entire debate would be moot due to the continuing advancements in medicine.  Ha, how wrong I was...

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2010, 06:54:03 PM »
i'd be okay with paying kids NOT to get pregnant.

If you calculate those most likely to cost society an assload of $ over 19 years.

Pay teenagers $1000 a year to get the 1- year shot, or a clean $6000 to get the 5-year shot/implant they have.

Hell, parents will be lining up those kids to get the free money.  Maybe even offer them $25 grand to be sterilized.

Dos Equis

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2010, 09:26:38 PM »


Well in my state, the men & women in black are elected by the people so their opinions are just as valid as those of senators, representatives, governors, etc.  I see where you're going with case law, and I'm not typically a fan of judicial activism, but using a constitutional amendment (even at the state level) to define "personhood" will, in my opinion, lead to a plethora of problems and, perhaps, even more case law!

Strange you mention "years ago".  Years ago, I thought the entire debate would be moot due to the continuing advancements in medicine.  Ha, how wrong I was...

Even the elected judges are supposed to interpret, not make the law.  But you basically already said that.    

From a practical standpoint, I don't see a problem with defining "personhood."  We already do that.  We have definitions on the books of "person."  We have definitions of death.  Defining when life begins isn't really unusual when you look at it from that angle.  

The debate will never end.  The problem will never be solved.  It will always be a very divisive issue.  

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2010, 06:39:05 AM »

I disagree.  I think this is going to cause more problems and just push the issue for endless decades to come.  It essentially suggests that a fetus has rights and those rights may even trump the mothers.  Then there's the whole legal shit that will inevitably follow.  Lawsuits because the mother didn't take the right vitamins or proper supplements or didn't follow proper dietary procedures, etc.  I think it will be a never ending litany of suits, complaints, gripes, and groans.

Why can't they just leave women alone for fucks sake.

Yes,like the way they leave men alone who may want to enhance their lives with steroids.We should leave women alone the day the filthy government legalises drugs for adults.

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2010, 07:55:38 AM »
Yes,like the way they leave men alone who may want to enhance their lives with steroids.We should leave women alone the day the filthy government legalises drugs for adults.

great point

I'm sure the day you're allowed to inject steroids at will the anti abortion nut jobs will feel vindicated and stop intimidating women, threatetning and killing abortion doctors, etc...   And of course we all know that taking steroids is basically the same thing as aborting a fetus with severe birth defects

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2010, 08:02:38 AM »
great point

I'm sure the day you're allowed to inject steroids at will the anti abortion nut jobs will feel vindicated and stop intimidating women, threatetning and killing abortion doctors, etc...   And of course we all know that taking steroids is basically the same thing as aborting a fetus with severe birth defects

Please give the stats on what is more dangerous,an abortion or using steroids.So far ZERO deaths EVER directly linked to the use of steroids.Can you say the same for abortions on demand?By the way,just so you know,the estimates I see are that over 85% of abortions are done on perfectly health babies.

How many abortion doctors have been offed by the anti abortion people?I know its two in the last 20 years or so.Wow,3 million abortions a year and two abortion doctors killed over 20 years.Keep trying to jinn up the fear of these scum bag doctors getting shot.You know,those darn tea party people are a soon to be group of McVeighs as well.Lib hysteria gone wild.

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2010, 10:28:29 AM »
Please give the stats on what is more dangerous,an abortion or using steroids.So far ZERO deaths EVER directly linked to the use of steroids.Can you say the same for abortions on demand?By the way,just so you know,the estimates I see are that over 85% of abortions are done on perfectly health babies.

How many abortion doctors have been offed by the anti abortion people?I know its two in the last 20 years or so.Wow,3 million abortions a year and two abortion doctors killed over 20 years.Keep trying to jinn up the fear of these scum bag doctors getting shot.You know,those darn tea party people are a soon to be group of McVeighs as well.Lib hysteria gone wild.

lol - dude you're utterly clueless

there is no correlation between your access to steroids (and to be clear I don't think there should be any restrictions provided you get them from  a doctor) and a womans access to legal abortion.

btw - aren't you anti abortion and think it's perfectly aceptable to murder doctors who perform abortions

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2010, 10:37:16 AM »
More stupid shit... Anyone ever get the numbers for and against pro-choice?

I'm sure it's not 50/50.

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2010, 11:16:33 AM »
lol - dude you're utterly clueless

there is no correlation between your access to steroids (and to be clear I don't think there should be any restrictions provided you get them from  a doctor) and a womans access to legal abortion.

btw - aren't you anti abortion and think it's perfectly aceptable to murder doctors who perform abortions

Im anti abortion and celebrate everytime like Slepian or Tiller is gunned down.I find a day to celebrate.But its certainly not aceptable,as those that soot abortion doctors should get the death penalty.

Women can get an abortion ANYTIME she wants.You cant name ONE TIME ever where a women was denied her ability to get an abortion because of anti abortion people.Now,the government has denied my ability to get steroids.Try to get d-bol from a doctor.Try to get winstrol or eq.Our dumb ass government has made these drugs a controlled substance based on nothing.

So,once again,you libs that scream,"WOMEN HAVE A RIGHT TO DO WHAT THEY WANT WITH THEIR BODIES" seem to have quite a different view when those rights come to men.

Straw Man

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2010, 11:30:46 AM »
Billy - pay attention.
I already said I think you should be able to get all the roids you want, provided you get them from a doctor.   

It sounds like in your ideal world all drugs would be legal but abortions would be illegal.

Is that an accurate depiction of your "ideal" world?

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2010, 11:37:27 AM »
More stupid shit... Anyone ever get the numbers for and against pro-choice?

I'm sure it's not 50/50.

I've posted the numbers numerous times.  The majority of the country is either pro life or favors restrictions on abortions. 

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2010, 11:44:14 AM »
Billy - pay attention.
I already said I think you should be able to get all the roids you want, provided you get them from a doctor.   

It sounds like in your ideal world all drugs would be legal but abortions would be illegal.

Is that an accurate depiction of your "ideal" world?

Sorry,wrong again.NOT ONCE EVER have I said the government get involved in abortion law.I dont want a ban,I dont want a law.You see unlike libs,which love to pick and chose where government can dictate behavior,I dont want government to have a say in ANYTHING of a personal nature as long as it doesnt hurt anyone else.So I want:

drugs made legal,NO RESTRICTIONS
abortion legal
gambling legal
prostitution legal
gay marriage legal[frankly I dont care about it]
driving without seat belts legal
no forced helmets for motor cycles
no restrictions on eating,no salt bans etc

etc. etc. I dont want the government to have any say in anything we do as long as the behavior hurts no one else.Abortion ,in the mind of many,kills someone else,but even on that I dont believe in government restrictions.Now,I do a little dance when an abortionist is blasted,but I dont want the government to put them out of buisiness.I want the government to protect the borders[they fail]and fix infastructure [they fail].So the things I want from them they fail at and the things I dont want them to do,they steal our liberty.

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2010, 11:48:49 AM »
I've posted the numbers numerous times.  The majority of the country is either pro life or favors restrictions on abortions.  

latest Gallup poll is 47% ProLife vs. 45% ProChoice.

They should really change the question to ProLife vs. AntiLife or even better Anti-Choice vs. Pro-Choice.  

I think Anti-Choice vs Pro-Choice would be a more accurate depiction and I'd bet the numbers would then skew toward Pro-Choice

As it stands now the ProLife people are free to not get abortions (and also get one if they change their mind) and the ProChoice people are free to get an abortion (or not get one if they change their mind)

With the current system everyone can get what they want

http://www.gallup.com/poll/128036/new-normal-abortion-americans-pro-life.aspx

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2010, 11:52:02 AM »
Sorry,wrong again.NOT ONCE EVER have I said the government get involved in abortion law.I dont want a ban,I dont want a law.You see unlike libs,which love to pick and chose where government can dictate behavior,I dont want government to have a say in ANYTHING of a personal nature as long as it doesnt hurt anyone else.So I want:

drugs made legal,NO RESTRICTIONS
abortion legal
gambling legal
prostitution legal
gay marriage legal[frankly I dont care about it]
driving without seat belts legal
no forced helmets for motor cycles
no restrictions on eating,no salt bans etc

etc. etc. I dont want the government to have any say in anything we do as long as the behavior hurts no one else.Abortion ,in the mind of many,kills someone else,but even on that I dont believe in government restrictions.Now,I do a little dance when an abortionist is blasted,but I dont want the government to put them out of buisiness.I want the government to protect the borders[they fail]and fix infastructure [they fail].So the things I want from them they fail at and the things I dont want them to do,they steal our liberty.


Billy is it possible for you to have an opinion on abortion without dragging anything else into it?

You've already said you're in favor of murdering doctors who perform abortions......YES or NO?

If the answer is YES then why are you in favor of it?

Can you give me a succinct answer to those questions (actually if you answer no then the 2nd question is void)


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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2010, 12:09:46 PM »
Billy is it possible for you to have an opinion on abortion without dragging anything else into it?

You've already said you're in favor of murdering doctors who perform abortions......YES or NO?

If the answer is YES then why are you in favor of it?

Can you give me a succinct answer to those questions (actually if you answer no then the 2nd question is void)



Im not sure Id say Im in favor of it.I giggle like a school girl when it happens.However,even pro life people say the only way to end abortions is to change peoples hearts on the issue.Most of these people are religious nuts and think that Jesus will come into the pro abortion peoples heart and change their views.Sorry,Im more realistic.I agree that changing hearts can end abortion,but Im more inclined to think if many abortion doctors are shot to death and clinics are bombed,those doctors that are involved in it,may have a change of heart out of fear that they are next.

So,I wouldnt say Im in favor of people committing murder[and if they do they should get the electric chair],but if they do I wont shed one tear for any abortionist or nurse involved in such a thing,and in the end if they can spread enough terror to the abortion community maybe there wont be anyone left to commit such acts.

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2010, 12:16:34 PM »
Im not sure Id say Im in favor of it.I giggle like a school girl when it happens.However,even pro life people say the only way to end abortions is to change peoples hearts on the issue.Most of these people are religious nuts and think that Jesus will come into the pro abortion peoples heart and change their views.Sorry,Im more realistic.I agree that changing hearts can end abortion,but Im more inclined to think if many abortion doctors are shot to death and clinics are bombed,those doctors that are involved in it,may have a change of heart out of fear that they are next.

So,I wouldnt say Im in favor of people committing murder[and if they do they should get the electric chair],but if they do I wont shed one tear for any abortionist or nurse involved in such a thing,and in the end if they can spread enough terror to the abortion community maybe there wont be anyone left to commit such acts.

ok, so you "giggle like a school girl" (your own strange depiction - not mine) when a a doctor or nurse is murdered and you're in favor of terorrisms as a tactic against doctors (and presumable you're aware that would included terrorizing woman as well)

will you at least admit that you are against abortion and if so why you are against it.

by "abortion" let's stick with the definition of what is currently legal in the US just to keep the water as clear as possible

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2010, 12:19:13 PM »
ok, so you "giggle like a school girl" (your own strange depiction - not mine) when a a doctor or nurse is murdered and you're in favor of terorrisms as a tactic against doctors (and presumable you're aware that would included terrorizing woman as well)

will you at least admit that you are against abortion and if so why you are against it.

by "abortion" let's stick with the definition of what is currently legal in the US just to keep the water as clear as possible

I believe its the murder of an innocent human being.That starts from the moment of conception.

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Re: Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2010, 12:25:20 PM »
I believe its the murder of an innocent human being.That starts from the moment of conception.

ok - I'll ignore the fact that the statement above is merely an opinion and you have no proof when "life" starts.

Let's stick with your belief that abortion is murder.

Are you saying you're OK with murder as long as you also get the following list

So I want:

drugs made legal,NO RESTRICTIONS
abortion legal
gambling legal
prostitution legal
gay marriage legal[frankly I dont care about it]
driving without seat belts legal
no forced helmets for motor cycles
no restrictions on eating,no salt bans etc

Somehow murder is OK as long and you have legal access to all drugs, gay marriage, prostitution etc...?