Pro-life 'personhood' effort advances

[BM OUT]

ok - I'll ignore the fact that the statement above is merely an opinion and you have no proof when "life" starts.

Let's stick with your belief that abortion is murder.

Are you saying you're OK with murder as long as you also get the following list

Somehow murder is OK as long and you have legal access to all drugs, gay marriage, prostitution etc...?

The government of the United States and the Supreme Court have determined that abortion is legal.Like you said "you have no proof when life begins".So,I dont think that outlawing it will do any more good then outlawing drugs have done.You would fill jails up with doctors or wannabe doctors and to what end?It still wouldnt stop it just like putting millions in jail for drugs has had done nothing to stop the flow,use or sale of drugs in this country.

So,whats the answer?Change peoples mind on the issue.Im not a religious guy so Im not about to think libs minds can be changed on the issue.I do KNOW for a fact that the only thing people respond to is fear of violence.If enough doctors thought that if they commited abortions their house may be bombed or they will be shot,you would slowly see less and less willing to commit abortions.

Again though,if someone does do violence to someone commting an act that the courts have deemed legal,then they should face the death penalty.But much like death camp doctors in Nazi Germany were commting acts that were perfectly legal and actually forced by the government to commit and were put to death for their crimes,so should abortion doctors doing something the government has called perfectly legal face the same type of end.

[Straw Man]

The government of the United States and the Supreme Court have determined that abortion is legal.Like you said "you have no proof when life begins".So,I dont think that outlawing it will do any more good then outlawing drugs have done.You would fill jails up with doctors or wannabe doctors and to what end?It still wouldnt stop it just like putting millions in jail for drugs has had done nothing to stop the flow,use or sale of drugs in this country.

So,whats the answer?Change peoples mind on the issue.Im not a religious guy so Im not about to think libs minds can be changed on the issue.I do KNOW for a fact that the only thing people respond to is fear of violence.If enough doctors thought that if they commited abortions their house may be bombed or they will be shot,you would slowly see less and less willing to commit abortions.

Again though,if someone does do violence to someone commting an act that the courts have deemed legal,then they should face the death penalty.But much like death camp doctors in Nazi Germany were commting acts that were perfectly legal and actually forced by the government to commit and were put to death for their crimes,so should abortion doctors doing something the government has called perfectly legal face the same type of end.

let's save your advocacy of terrorsism for another thread.

You've said that you believe abortion is murder and you've also given a list of things that you think should be legally allowed (some of which obviously already are legal)

Again, are you saying you're in favor of murder as long as you can also have legal access to any drug, prostitution, gay marriage, etc...?

[BM OUT]

let's save your advocacy of terrorsism for another thread.

You've said that you believe abortion is murder and you've also given a list of things that you think should be legally allowed (some of which obviously already are legal)

Again, are you saying you're in favor of murder as long as you can also have legal access to any drug, prostitution, gay marriage, etc...?

The government has spoken on the issue.NONE of the things I said I wanted legal are legal in all 50 states.

I will explain it one more time to you.This is the last time.I dont want the government to pass laws that restrict anyones personal liberty.So even though I and millions believe its murder,there is no way to say with 100% cetainty it is.Therefore for the government to ban it,it becomes an assault on personal liberty.Until they can prove with 100% certainty that it is a viable life then Im not in favor of a law resricting it or any other behavior that doesnt restrict anothers liberty.

[Straw Man]

The government has spoken on the issue.NONE of the things I said I wanted legal are legal in all 50 states.

I will explain it one more time to you.This is the last time.I dont want the government to pass laws that restrict anyones personal liberty.So even though I and millions believe its murder,there is no way to say with 100% cetainty it is.Therefore for the government to ban it,it becomes an assault on personal libertyUntil they can prove with 100% certainty that it is a viable life then Im not in favor of a law resricting it or any other behavior that doesnt restrict anothers liberty.

I'm pretty sure abortion is legal in all 50 states and I'm certain you can go to all 50 states and eat as much food and salt as you want.  

So, just to review:   banning abortion is an assault on personal liberty and yet you believe abortion is also murder but then you also believe that murder is OK as long as you also get all the other shit that you want.  

Also, although you personally believe that abortion is murder you also think restricting it is a assault  on anothers liberty but at the same time you advocate terrorizing doctors (and by extension all women) as a way for them to prevent them from exercising that personal liberaty that you're in favor of for yourself

Do I understand your position correctly?

btw - your viable life question is easy - take out the cluster of cells and if it lives then we know that's the viable age but if it dies then we know it's not viable.    Keep doing that until the point where the thing doesn't die and then we'll call that the "viable" age.    If that's too harsh for you then we can just go with our current defintion of viable.  

[tu_holmes]

I've posted the numbers numerous times.  The majority of the country is either pro life or favors restrictions on abortions. 

See when you add "favors restrictions", of course that's the majority... If you look at the actual polls though, as far as pro-life or pro-choice, most of the "restriction" people consider themselves pro-choice.

[Dos Equis]

See when you add "favors restrictions", of course that's the majority... If you look at the actual polls though, as far as pro-life or pro-choice, most of the "restriction" people consider themselves pro-choice.

Gallup Poll. May 3-6, 2010. N=1,029 adults nationwide. MoE ± 4.
               
"With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?"

Pro-life:  47 percent
Pro-choice:  45 percent. 
   
http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

[BM OUT]

I'm pretty sure abortion is legal in all 50 states and I'm certain you can go to all 50 states and eat as much food and salt as you want.  

So, just to review:   banning abortion is an assault on personal liberty and yet you believe abortion is also murder but then you also believe that murder is OK as long as you also get all the other shit that you want.  

Also, although you personally believe that abortion is murder you also think restricting it is a assault  on anothers liberty but at the same time you advocate terrorizing doctors (and by extension all women) as a way for them to prevent them from exercising that personal liberaty that you're in favor of for yourself

Do I understand your position correctly?

btw - your viable life question is easy - take out the cluster of cells and if it lives then we know that's the viable age but if it dies then we know it's not viable.    Keep doing that until the point where the thing doesn't die and then we'll call that the "viable" age.    If that's too harsh for you then we can just go with our current defintion of viable.  

New York city has instituted restrictions on salt in resturaunts so your wrong and that stupid skank Michelle "IM A TRANNY: Obama wants more restrictions.

As far as viable.If thats your definition then I assume your for pulling the plug on anyone thats being kept alive on machines.Because if you unplug those machines then they die.

Your post is foolish.There is a very real difference between the government restricting freedoms and an individual violating laws that he will be found guilty of and punnished for.Even terrorism wouldnt guarantee that they would be restricted from doing anything they wanted.BUT government passing laws which the constitution NEVER gave them a right to pass does gurantee that your liberty is gone.

I dont think abortion is ok.But I also dont want the government taking away personal liberty.If a women wants an abortion then the government says its fine.If I want to use EQ the same government says I cant because...well,they have never actually given a reason.So,just because I think its murder,the courts have ruled its not.

[Skip8282]

Yes,like the way they leave men alone who may want to enhance their lives with steroids.We should leave women alone the day the filthy government legalises drugs for adults.

Yes, I agree they should leave men alone.  But, two wrongs aren't going to make it right.  Holding out until men can do with their bodies as they please is not the answer in my opinion.  Give women the right to do with their bodies as they please, and, when the steriod issue comes up, fight for men to get their rights.

[Straw Man]

Gallup Poll. May 3-6, 2010. N=1,029 adults nationwide. MoE ± 4.
               
"With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?"

Pro-life:  47 percent
Pro-choice:  45 percent. 
   
http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

don't you think it would be more fair to pose the question as Pro Choice or Anti Choice.   Aren't those the actual opposite positions?

One group wants women to have a choice and the other group does not want women to have a choice

[Straw Man]

New York city has instituted restrictions on salt in resturaunts so your wrong and that stupid skank Michelle "IM A TRANNY: Obama wants more restrictions.

As far as viable.If thats your definition then I assume your for pulling the plug on anyone thats being kept alive on machines.Because if you unplug those machines then they die.

Your post is foolish.There is a very real difference between the government restricting freedoms and an individual violating laws that he will be found guilty of and punnished for.Even terrorism wouldnt guarantee that they would be restricted from doing anything they wanted.BUT government passing laws which the constitution NEVER gave them a right to pass does gurantee that your liberty is gone.

I dont think abortion is ok.But I also dont want the government taking away personal liberty.If a women wants an abortion then the government says its fine.If I want to use EQ the same government says I cant because...well,they have never actually given a reason.So,just because I think its murder,the courts have ruled its not.

Billy - I've tried to understand your point of view for the last 2 pages and I swear it somehow makes less sense the more you try to explain it.

First, this has nothing to do with salt in restaurants.  You can consume all the salt and food you want in the state of New York and if you can't get what you want in a restaurant there is nothing stopping you from adding your own salt. 

Here's what we know so far:

1.  You're against abortion because you think it's murder
2.  You laugh like a school girl when a doctor who performs abortions is murdered.
3.  You think you (and people who think like you) are justified in terrorizing doctors and women who are exercising their own liberty and taking fully legal actions that you don't agree with but you also agree those people (the murders and terrorist) should be punished ( I think you said given the electric chair in the event of murder)

OK - a bit nutty but so far relatively consistent but then you also seem to believe the following

4.  Until the government can prove with 100% certainty when life is viable then they should not restrict anyone access to abortion 
5.  Here's where I get lost -   #'s 1 thru 4 are all still true ( to you)  but if the government gives you legal access to any drugs (presumably you're mostly intgerested in steroid which you claim to have been on virtually continuously for 20+ yuears) , gay marriage, prostitutes and salt then abortion, though still murder  (to you ) should be allowed/legal .


I think I can sum up your postion as follows:

Abortion (aka "murder" to you) is  legal therefore you should be able to legally obtain any drug you want, get gay married and legally retain the services of prostitutes and also consume as much food and salt as you'd like

until that happens our country is unfair and restricting your liberty

[drkaje]

The pre-pre-born babies swimming around in my nutsack are entitled to a Ferrari and millions of dollars.

[Straw Man]

The pre-pre-born babies swimming around in my nutsack are entitled to a Ferrari and millions of dollars.

I think that's a stretch but they probably deserve some tax cuts once they are viable outside the womb

fetuses are already taxed too much

I know the majority of the fetus vote is against any type of publicy funded healthcare

[drkaje]

I think that's a stretch but they probably deserve some tax cuts once they are viable outside the womb

fetuses are already taxed too much

I know the majority of the fetus vote is against any type of publicy funded healthcare

I want pre-tax credits, dammit!!

Why stop foolishness at some arbitrary point? Especially if doing so would rob my pre-half-fetuses of monies and benefits.

They want to vote, too!

[BM OUT]

Billy - I've tried to understand your point of view for the last 2 pages and I swear it somehow makes less sense the more you try to explain it.

First, this has nothing to do with salt in restaurants.  You can consume all the salt and food you want in the state of New York and if you can't get what you want in a restaurant there is nothing stopping you from adding your own salt. 

Here's what we know so far:

1.  You're against abortion because you think it's murder
2.  You laugh like a school girl when a doctor who performs abortions is murdered.
3.  You think you (and people who think like you) are justified in terrorizing doctors and women who are exercising their own liberty and taking fully legal actions that you don't agree with but you also agree those people (the murders and terrorist) should be punished ( I think you said given the electric chair in the event of murder)

OK - a bit nutty but so far relatively consistent but then you also seem to believe the following

4.  Until the government can prove with 100% certainty when life is viable then they should not restrict anyone access to abortion 
5.  Here's where I get lost -   #'s 1 thru 4 are all still true ( to you)  but if the government gives you legal access to any drugs (presumably you're mostly intgerested in steroid which you claim to have been on virtually continuously for 20+ yuears) , gay marriage, prostitutes and salt then abortion, though still murder  (to you ) should be allowed/legal .


I think I can sum up your postion as follows:

Abortion (aka "murder" to you) is  legal therefore you should be able to legally obtain any drug you want, get gay married and legally retain the services of prostitutes and also consume as much food and salt as you'd like

until that happens our country is unfair and restricting your liberty

Lets say in 2012 we have overwhelming republican majorities in the house and senate and a republican president.They pass a law outlawing abortions that the supreme court up holds.

Do you think that will stop ONE abortion?I dont.You see,I think ANYTHING the government does is a failure.They once banned drinking,there were more drunks then ever.They banned drugs,more drugs then ever.They have a war on poverty there are more poor living in worse situations then ever.If they ban bad foods like Obama wants to there will be more fat people then ever.

The government is a failure.If they ban abortion,there will not be one less abortion,and those getting them will be in more danger then they are now.So,I believe its the killing of an innocent child.But the filthy government cant stop it,make it less prominant just like they cant stop anything else they try to stop.

So,your right,I think the filthy ,disgusting waste of time and money, failed government picks and chooses who gets liberty,what type of liberty and when you get it and its pretty sad that we have allowed it.The very same idiots like Joe Biden who scream that "STEROIDS MUST BE BANNED" are the very same ones that scream "A WOMEN HAS THE RIGHT TO DO WHAT SHE WANTS WITH HER BODY".I find that quite mind numbing.

[Straw Man]

Lets say in 2012 we have overwhelming republican majorities in the house and senate and a republican president.They pass a law outlawing abortions that the supreme court up holds.

Do you think that will stop ONE abortion?I dont.You see,I think ANYTHING the government does is a failure.They once banned drinking,there were more drunks then ever.They banned drugs,more drugs then ever.They have a war on poverty there are more poor living in worse situations then ever.If they ban bad foods like Obama wants to there will be more fat people then ever.

The government is a failure.If they ban abortion,there will not be one less abortion,and those getting them will be in more danger then they are now.So,I believe its the killing of an innocent child.But the filthy government cant stop it,make it less prominant just like they cant stop anything else they try to stop.

So,your right,I think the filthy ,disgusting waste of time and money, failed government picks and chooses who gets liberty,what type of liberty and when you get it and its pretty sad that we have allowed it.The very same idiots like Joe Biden who scream that "STEROIDS MUST BE BANNED" are the very same ones that scream "A WOMEN HAS THE RIGHT TO DO WHAT SHE WANTS WITH HER BODY".I find that quite mind numbing.

[/b][/size]

I does appear that your mind is numb

If you truly believe that abortion is murder then how can you be ok with it provided you get your roids and salt and gay marriage?

Is every politial/social issue just a foil for you to argue for unfettered access to all the steroids you want.   

Haven't you taken steroids virtually withouut a break for the last 20 years?

[BM OUT]

[/b][/size]

I does appear that your mind is numb

If you truly believe that abortion is murder then how can you be ok with it provided you get your roids and salt and gay marriage?

Is every politial/social issue just a foil for you to argue for unfettered access to all the steroids you want.   

Haven't you taken steroids virtually withouut a break for the last 20 years?

Did I say Im ok with it as long as drugs are legal?Drugs aren't legal now and I don't want the filthy government to ban abortion.Not sure why you keep saying it.Abortion CANT BE STOPPED!!!The government went from making steroids a midimeaner,to making d-bol a controlled substance to making all steroids a controlled substance to adding pro hormones as controlled substances .Has it stopped steroid use?In fact,its estimated that as many as 7 million people are using steroids in this country.So,once again,the government bans something,it multiplies the activity.As with everything,the government fails.

Imagine if they banned abortion.We have 3 million a year now,it would jump to 6 million and many would be done by butchers.Sorry,government CANT DO ANYTHING RIGHT.But legalising steroids has nothing to do with abortion unless you mean the total hypocrisy of claiming that your for a women having the right to do what she wants with her body but restrict a man from that same right.

Now,I don't care about gay marriage.I'm married to a women and have been for twenty years.You?But once again,the government banning it makes no sense.YES!!!!!!!!!!I have used steroids since 1987.This is a weight lifting site,is that a shocking revelation that there are guys on here who use steroids?Hey,guess what?People who compete use steroids,I know it may come as a shock to you.But the governments ban has done NOTHING to stop it.

[LurkerNoMore]

Billy - I've tried to understand your point of view for the last 2 pages and I swear it somehow makes less sense the more you try to explain it.

First, this has nothing to do with salt in restaurants.  You can consume all the salt and food you want in the state of New York and if you can't get what you want in a restaurant there is nothing stopping you from adding your own salt. 

Here's what we know so far:

1.  You're against abortion because you think it's murder
2.  You laugh like a school girl when a doctor who performs abortions is murdered.
3.  You think you (and people who think like you) are justified in terrorizing doctors and women who are exercising their own liberty and taking fully legal actions that you don't agree with but you also agree those people (the murders and terrorist) should be punished ( I think you said given the electric chair in the event of murder)

OK - a bit nutty but so far relatively consistent but then you also seem to believe the following

4.  Until the government can prove with 100% certainty when life is viable then they should not restrict anyone access to abortion 
5.  Here's where I get lost -   #'s 1 thru 4 are all still true ( to you)  but if the government gives you legal access to any drugs (presumably you're mostly intgerested in steroid which you claim to have been on virtually continuously for 20+ yuears) , gay marriage, prostitutes and salt then abortion, though still murder  (to you ) should be allowed/legal .


I think I can sum up your postion as follows:

Abortion (aka "murder" to you) is  legal therefore you should be able to legally obtain any drug you want, get gay married and legally retain the services of prostitutes and also consume as much food and salt as you'd like

until that happens our country is unfair and restricting your liberty

LOL!!

Let his rant wear off and he will make sense in a minute.

[Straw Man]

Did I say Im ok with it as long as drugs are legal?Drugs aren't legal now and I don't want the filthy government to ban abortion.Not sure why you keep saying it.Abortion CANT BE STOPPED!!!The government went from making steroids a midimeaner,to making d-bol a controlled substance to making all steroids a controlled substance to adding pro hormones as controlled substances .Has it stopped steroid use?In fact,its estimated that as many as 7 million people are using steroids in this country.So,once again,the government bans something,it multiplies the activity.As with everything,the government fails.

Imagine if they banned abortion.We have 3 million a year now,it would jump to 6 million and many would be done by butchers.Sorry,government CANT DO ANYTHING RIGHT.But legalising steroids has nothing to do with abortion unless you mean the total hypocrisy of claiming that your for a women having the right to do what she wants with her body but restrict a man from that same right.

Now,I don't care about gay marriage.I'm married to a women and have been for twenty years.You?But once again,the government banning it makes no sense.YES!!!!!!!!!!I have used steroids since 1987.This is a weight lifting site,is that a shocking revelation that there are guys on here who use steroids?Hey,guess what?People who compete use steroids,I know it may come as a shock to you.But the governments ban has done NOTHING to stop it.

Thank Jebus you can still get your hands on steroids

stil though, you believe abortion is murder but you don't think the governement should have any laws against it.

What are your views on post birth abortion.....you know just regular old murder. 
Shouldn't the filthly incompetent government keep out of that too.   Since you're for the legalization of all drugs should the filthy disgusting incompentent government have any say in that at all or should we just allow anyone to sell drugs anywhere and anytime.   Maybe on the playground at school. 

[drkaje]

Thank Jebus you can still get your hands on steroids

stil though, you believe abortion is murder but you don't think the governement should have any laws against it.

What are your views on post birth abortion.....you know just regular old murder. 
Shouldn't the filthly incompetent government keep out of that too.   Since you're for the legalization of all drugs should the filthy disgusting incompentent government have any say in that at all or should we just allow anyone to sell drugs anywhere and anytime.   Maybe on the playground at school. 

I wonder what people here think about abortions done on Muslims?

[BM OUT]

Thank Jebus you can still get your hands on steroids

stil though, you believe abortion is murder but you don't think the governement should have any laws against it.

What are your views on post birth abortion.....you know just regular old murder. 
Shouldn't the filthly incompetent government keep out of that too.   Since you're for the legalization of all drugs should the filthy disgusting incompentent government have any say in that at all or should we just allow anyone to sell drugs anywhere and anytime.   Maybe on the playground at school. 

Hmmm,I thought I said I was against the government taking liberty from people and made it a point to say as long as the behavior doesnt hurt others.Now,Ive also said I BELIEVE ABORTION IS MURDER but you dont and libs dont.So,unlike libs,I dont try to jam my views down others throats.So,since we cant prove when its a life Im not for the banning of it.Its very very simple.

YES I can get steroids but I have to break laws to do it.Why?Does it hurt you or anyone else if I use steroids.Nope,in fact it doesnt even hurt myself,but of course we have experts like Joe Biden and Henry Waxman who are expersts on the subject based on their vast medical training and intense study of steroids so they had to ban them.

[Straw Man]

Hmmm,I thought I said I was against the government taking liberty from people and made it a point to say as long as the behavior doesnt hurt others.Now,Ive also said I BELIEVE ABORTION IS MURDER but you dont and libs dont.So,unlike libs,I dont try to jam my views down others throats.So,since we cant prove when its a life Im not for the banning of it.Its very very simple.

YES I can get steroids but I have to break laws to do it.Why?Does it hurt you or anyone else if I use steroids.Nope,in fact it doesnt even hurt myself,but of course we have experts like Joe Biden and Henry Waxman who are expersts on the subject based on their vast medical training and intense study of steroids so they had to ban them.

if abortion is murder then isn't it hurting someone else (the murdered baby).

the current legal structure allows people who are against abortion to choose not to have one so how is that "jamming" views down someones throat.  Anti Choice people are completely free to not get abortions

[Straw Man]

I wonder what people here think about abortions done on Muslims?

they haven't accepted Jebus as their personal saviour so they're all going to hell anyway so I guess it probably doesn't really matter either way

[BM OUT]

if abortion is murder then isn't it hurting someone else (the murdered baby).

the current legal structure allows people who are against abortion to choose not to have one so how is that "jamming" views down someones throat.  Anti Choice people are completely free to not get abortions

Jesus,I said I BELIEVE its murder.Do you?Do your fellow libs?So,should the country base the laws on my opinion?

Libs jam their views down our throats by passing bullshit laws like hate crime legislation.Somehow these lib idiots can read the mind of criminals and know that the crime they are commting are based on racist thoughts.However,they cant quite seem to see black panthers swinging weapons outside of polling places and screaming at whites "now you will know what its like to be ruled by a black man ,cracker".Somehow that doesnt rise to hate crime level.

Thats how libs jam THEIR morals on everyone,not just abortion laws.Anything THEY see as offensive,they make pass a law to stop it.

[tonymctones]

if abortion is murder then isn't it hurting someone else (the murdered baby).

the current legal structure allows people who are against abortion to choose not to have one so how is that "jamming" views down someones throat.  Anti Choice people are completely free to not get abortions

actually the current legal structure does not allow ppl to choose abortion or not, it allows women to choose abortion or not...MEN still have no say in matter at all 

straw: "its her body, its her choice"
tony: "I agree its her body, so she should be the only one effected by her choice"
straw: "BLAH BLAH BLAH...jebus, jebus, jebus..."

[Straw Man]

actually the current legal structure does not allow ppl to choose abortion or not, it allows women to choose abortion or not...MEN still have no say in matter at all 

straw: "its her body, its her choice"
tony: "I agree its her body, so she should be the only one effected by her choice"
straw: "BLAH BLAH BLAH...jebus, jebus, jebus..."

find out a way to get pregnant and carry a baby and then you'll get a choice