Author Topic: I found a solution to: What is muscle density, how do you increase it?  (Read 12194 times)

GroinkTropin

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3138
D=M/V is a standard representation of the density (D) of a given substance.

In muscle terms, D=F*M/V

Simply put, the density of a given muscle is simply the amount of force a muscle can generate multiplied by the mass (weight) divided by the volume.

Meaning, simply, a stronger, heavier muscle occupying less space will be more dense.

If you increase the amount of weight a muscle can lift (with strict form) without increasing the volume of space it occupies, you will increase the density.

For example, a 21 inch biceps can curl, say, 50lbs, if you increase it's workload capacity to lifting 100lbs without an increase in size (still 21 inches) you will effectively increase the density.

For this reason strong bodybuilders are more dense than weaklings. Ronnie Coleman for example is much (MUCH) more dense than say, oh, Phil Heath.

You can give the ILLUSION of density with drugs, but it has a different look to it than the real deal, so to speak.

This also explains why it is important to increase strength along with size. If you can get bigger without getting stronger, you will LOSE density.

Some confuse muscle maturity with density and I believe this to be a mistake. Muscle maturity is simply a greater proliferation of motor units within the muscle I believe. It happens over time as you recruit motor units and over time they multiply in number, allowing you to recruit more muscle fibers in a given workload. For this reason VOLUME should be kept HIGH when you are starting out and gradually decreased as you get older.

You may look at Jay Cutler as a perfect example of this. He trains high volume and moderate intensity with moderate weight and while he is huge he is hardly dense and his muscles have not changed much in appearance over the years, though he has managed to steadily get bigger.

Branch Warren is a great example of density as proven with the above equation. He has a much smaller frame yet competes at the same weight as guys 5 inches taller. On top of that, he lifts much heavier weight. His muscles occupy LESS VOLUME and yet have more MASS and can move MORE weight than the taller guys, thus his muscles have MUCH MORE DENSITY.

Now, he has always been thick and dense, and I bet he has always been strong, which also proves (to a degree) my point that muscle maturity is NOT the same as muscle density.

Only posting this because I have seen the question posed before "how do you increase muscle density?" and I had never been able to accurately answer it. Now, you have an answer- combine periods of strength training (very low repetitions, around 4-8) with periods of growth training (8-14 reps for most exercises).

Also I believe it is important to use exercises for their best application. Deadlifts, squats should be kept low repetition (deads down to 2 reps, squats down to 4). An exercise like, say, cable crossovers should be used for 10-16 reps. Leg extensions 10-20 reps, while barbell rows 8-12 etc etc. You get the point, I hope.

Hope this helps.

MM

dyslexic

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7676
  • baddoggy
Cliffs?


Reading and comprehension skills at an all-time low this time of night...


Kind of "dense" I suppose...  maybe it's just the Ambien.

gh15

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 16991
  • angels
trenbolona ace,,lots of it!

gh15 approved
fallen angel

GroinkTropin

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3138
trenbolona ace,,lots of it!

gh15 approved

Hmm I would have to agree to an extent. Tren has magical strength building properties, while not being the best for growth. I would say using it long term would increase density, as would halotestin, anavar, possibly winstrol.

Again ANYTHING that causes an increase in strength without increasing volume proportionately will increase muscle density.

GroinkTropin

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3138
Cliffs?


Reading and comprehension skills at an all-time low this time of night...


Kind of "dense" I suppose...  maybe it's just the Ambien.

Basically if you increase the strength of a muscle without increasing the volume that the muscle occupies at a rate in proportion you will increase the density of that muscle.

Be big, but be STRONG, or you will look bloofy.


theheman

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 613
  • Her tetas were shaped like little pointy tortillas
The body is a very complex system.  The cells in the body are a living substance that can alter themselves without scientific discretion.  Here's a cool book you should read The Secret Life of Your Cells by Robert Stone.  It's one of those whoo whoo books but it will alter your view of the world.  To simplify the process of the body by a physics formula is doing unjustice.  Unless you can communicate with your cells especially the muscles to continue spliting apart and growing your answer is to force them to grow by taking the advice of Mr. gh15.

GroinkTropin

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3138
The body is a very complex system.  The cells in the body are a living substance that can alter themselves without scientific discretion.  Here's a cool book you should read The Secret Life of Your Cells by Robert Stone.  It's one of those whoo whoo books but it will alter your view of the world.  To simplify the process of the body by a physics formula is doing unjustice.  Unless you can communicate with your cells especially the muscles to continue spliting apart and growing your answer is to force them to grow by taking the advice of Mr. gh15.

My formula works, I challenge you to actually disprove it.

I get what you are saying, but density is a rather simple formula, what I did was alter is slightly to be applicable to the human body, and explain it in layman's terms.

wes

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66301
  • What Dire Mishap Has Befallen Thee
I`m confused.

Meso_z

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17954
Good thread.

An example of zero density is Dillett, who happened t train light. His muscles were like marshmallows

GroinkTropin

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3138

Strength is not always related to "muscle" density.  It has a lot to do with your CNS, how your body is built...ie mechanical advantages, and many many other factors.  To say that because someone is stronger means they have "denser" muscles is hogwash.  If you compare a guy who is very short, to a guy who is tall, and they both have the same volume of muscle on their biceps, of course the shorter guy will be stronger because he has a "bigger" muscle proportionally than the taller guy.  It has nothing to do with the muscle fibers being any "denser".  It only has to deal with the fact that "proportionally" his bicep muscles are much much bigger than a taller man with the same volume of muscle fibers. 

Also, who says there is any difference between how "dense" a muscle is compared to another muscle?  Suppose you were to take a 1"x1"x1" cube of muscle from Ronnie's bicep, and the same size cube of muscle from Phil Heaths bicep.  Just because ronnie is stronger does not mean that the mass of his cube would be greater than phils.  Where has this ever been proven?  It's just assumption on your part that somehow ronnies muscles are more "dense".




"If you compare a guy who is very short, to a guy who is tall, and they both have the same volume of muscle on their biceps, of course the shorter guy will be stronger because he has a "bigger" muscle proportionally than the taller guy."

What? Of course the shorter guy will be stronger?

You seem to have issues digesting what you read...SO, essentially let me break this down for you. If a man who is 5ft5 is 250 lbs and has 4% bodyfat and 21 inch arms, and you take a man who is 5ft11 and weighs 250lbs has 4% bodyfat and 21 inch arms his musculature MUST be more dense. I mean, this is pretty damn simple, a shorter man who's muscles MUST occupy less volume by definition that a man 5 inches taller but who carries the same amount of muscle BY WEIGHT MUST have greater density to his muscle mass, it's directly proportional.

You do have a small point that motor unit recruitment and CNS stimulation can lead to strength gains, but they are only pieces of the pie. You can also train for both size and strength, the trick is to work for both. Otherwise you can be big and weak and bloofy or strong and small and a powerlifter or stength type athlete. You can definitely get stronger without getting bigger, and a quick look at some olympic lifters will show right away that they are in fact VERY dense, yet they are not that big. You can train for density through strength training and hypertrophy through bodybuilding training and go back and forth to do whatever your body needs at the time. Or concentrate on always getting stronger while you grow, whatever works.


If you take a 1/1/1 cube of Ronnie Colemans biceps and take the same size cube from Phil Heaths biceps, you should in theory see that Ronnie's sample will weigh more. I mean this is simple biology and some common sense as well.

DK II

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 31269
  • Call me 4 steroids: 571-332-2588 or 571-249-4163
So where do Arnold, Zane, Franco, Lou, Haney or Serge fit in?  ::) ::)

GroinkTropin

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3138
So where do Arnold, Zane, Franco, Lou, Haney or Serge fit in?  ::) ::)

The stronger lifter (Franco) was much denser than the others, compare some photos for yourself.

Also not sure where that comment came from, I never said lifters today are denser than yesteryear....

DK II

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 31269
  • Call me 4 steroids: 571-332-2588 or 571-249-4163
The stronger lifter (Franco) was much denser than the others, compare some photos for yourself.

Also not sure where that comment came from, I never said lifters today are denser than yesteryear....

I just wanted to hear you opinion on those.  ;D

tbombz

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19350
  • Psalms 150
To say that because someone is stronger means they have "denser" muscles is hogwash. 

no, your post is

Meso_z

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17954
Says....who?  Because someone doesn't look dense, they magically arent dense?  No science to back up any of these ideas whatsoever.  See my above post. 

According to me.

99 Bananas

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1320
Wait a minute... You're asking people to prove you're wrong when you haven't even come close to proving you're right?

DK II

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 31269
  • Call me 4 steroids: 571-332-2588 or 571-249-4163
Wait a minute... You're asking people to prove you're wrong when you haven't even come close to proven you're right?

Wait until he turns pro naturally.  ::)

GroinkTropin

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3138
Wait a minute... You're asking people to prove you're wrong when you haven't even come close to proving you're right?

My theory is sound, disprove it.

There are tons of things we know to be true that can not be proven. Black holes can not be directly proven, though there is proof that they exist.

You can see some bodybuilders are visually more dense, and are ALWAYS stronger than less dense bodybuilders.

FInd me a bodybuilder who is fairly dense yet fairly weak and let's see whats what. Guaranteed you can not find one. Density and strength go hand in hand, the proof is right in front of your fucking face, has nothing to do with me proving it or not. It has been proven time and time again IN THE REAL WORLD.


99 Bananas

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1320
My theory is sound, disprove it.

There are tons of things we know to be true that can not be proven. Black holes can not be directly proven, though there is proof that they exist.

What?! Sound is not the same as proven. You have absolute proof or you don't. You don't. You can't be called upon to prove a negative. What you just said about black holes makes no sense either.

Theory Law Abstract Concrete. Go over those words.

gh15

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 16991
  • angels
trenbolona ace,,

you want to see density? you want the allllll muscle to stay and only the fat and water to go bye bye? you want the thickness to increase with the density to increase aka thickness from within to increase while bodyfat go down due to this increase....resulted in higher density?

T R E N B O L O N A A C E

no cardio needed either,, retard is the one who does cardio on legit trenbolona ace,, you go down to the 6% effortless

gh15 approved
fallen angel

jeremiah ulq

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 93
  • Striving for the "Arnold in '73" Condition
Gh15....What is your thought on Cypionate (200 mg. per cc) as far as a weekly dosage with Tren Ace at 75 ed ?  I have access to this cheap whereas I'm having difficulty finding Prop. (Bloodwork will be in on Wed. and beginning Mutation next week)
Learning Priorities

The RedMeatKid

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2159
Great post, mm. I've noticed from time to time that a lean powerlifter can look more impressive than some of these so called mass monster bodybuilders. Interesting to see gh15 malfunction here and be unable to cope with the subject of biomechanics. Good stuff.
(

muscularny

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3042
  • Training
trenbolona ace,,

you want to see density? you want the allllll muscle to stay and only the fat and water to go bye bye? you want the thickness to increase with the density to increase aka thickness from within to increase while bodyfat go down due to this increase....resulted in higher density?

T R E N B O L O N A A C E

no cardio needed either,, retard is the one who does cardio on legit trenbolona ace,, you go down to the 6% effortless

gh15 approved
be honest, dont you wish you knew this when you where competing?


YoungBlood

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6777
  • Weee!
My formula works, I challenge you to actually disprove it.

I get what you are saying, but density is a rather simple formula, what I did was alter is slightly to be applicable to the human body, and explain it in layman's terms.

"Your formula" as you put it, has been written about years ago by some unknown fellers named Dr Squat, Charles Poliquin and others like Ian King. Just as you said it too.

GroinkTropin

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3138
"Your formula" as you put it, has been written about years ago by some unknown fellers named Dr Squat, Charles Poliquin and others like Ian King. Just as you said it too.

Well good shit then. Honestly I read a thread on here a while back and I remember someone asking how do you increase density? I couldn't answer, I think I said do low reps or something similar. I like being able to give accurate answers to questions like that.

I haven't read anything by the guys you mentioned, although I have definitely heard of them. Being science minded has not always been my thing, I was more or less your typical "dumb" bodybuilder most of my life. I decided to get a degree, and now I am actually learning useful and important things :)