Did Dorian retire just before "Palumboism" had a chance to set in?

[no one]

Breakdown?  Hardly.  There are bullshit theories in nearly every thread.

This is called 'moving the goal posts'.  First it was only possible with drugs, but now it's possible, except it's slower?   Well, of course a natural lifter is going to progress much more slowly than a multiple Mr Olympia winner.    Your theory might be good as a general rule of thumb, but it doesn't stand up to close scrutiny (which even you seem to admit).

It's also very difficult to argue with people who are so (deliberately?) vague. Take this for example:
It's a 'specific look', the pop (the what?  it's unrelated to size or leanness but it's visible here?), the veins (what about them? it's not even a clear photo), the skin (what about the skin?  are you sure the things you are seeing in the skin are not visual artifacts?)  If you think this particular physique is above what is possible by any natural lifter in history (IMO a bizarre claim), you'll need to be more specific about what you are seeing.  

bottom line and you can debate this all you want a natty will hit a point determined by his genetics that will not allow him to make- despite however optimal the conditions he cretaes for himself for 'growth'- the gains an anbolics user will make.

period.

[Shockwave]

bottom line and you can debate this all you want a natty will hit a point determined by his genetics that will not allow him to make- despite however optimal the conditions he cretaes for himself for 'growth'- the gains an anbolics user will make.

period.

juice = muscle.

Nothing against nattys, but theyre just never going to look as good or attain the same levels as a user..... and itll be slower than hell.

I dont have the time or dedication it takes to look halfway decent as a natty... thank god for HRT.

[ProudVirgin69]

No, YOU should. Go to any regional amateur wrestling tourney in the west and you'll see tons of 5'6" no necks built like tanks no aas needed. 

Those 5'6" wrestlers will be wrestling in the 145lb weight class, and they will walk around at 150-155.  Not exactly what I picture when I think "built like tanks"

[thebrink]

Those 5'6" wrestlers will be wrestling in the 145lb weight class, and they will walk around at 150-155.  Not exactly what I picture when I think "built like tanks"

Lots of jacked 5'8" 185+ guys too. Muscularity isn't magic bro its just genetics. Not as big a deal as ppl on here make it out to be.

[ProudVirgin69]

Originally you posted:

No, YOU should. Go to any regional amateur wrestling tourney in the west and you'll see tons of 5'6" no necks built like tanks no aas needed.

As if to claim that wrestlers were exceptionally muscular.  Fact is, they aren't.  Yeah they are tremendously fit and are very strong for their bodyweight, but wrestling at the lowest weight class possible is really the only way to have any chance at success.

5'8" at a very lean 185 is indeed quite muscular, but you will not find an above-average wrestler at those stats.  The 182-weight class is populated by individuals taller than 6'0".

Do you have any experience in wrestling?  Or are you just talking out of your ass to make a point?

[dogbowl]

bottom line and you can debate this all you want a natty will hit a point determined by his genetics that will not allow him to make- despite however optimal the conditions he cretaes for himself for 'growth'- the gains an anbolics user will make.

noshit.jpg

[dogbowl]

the photo is clear enough for me.

thats steroid fullness there, you wouldnt know that as natty.

its not moving th e goalposts, its just very tiresome to post all the little details.

look if you believe he was on nothing there, fine.

It's moving the goal posts because you don't actually concede and then you change the argument.

Perhaps the reason you think this is beyond what is achievable naturally is because you were very small or flat or veinless as a natural.  Not everyone is.  

The "little details" you mention are the entire argument.  You think you see particular things about his veins or skin (which you can't describe, or wont describe) that means he can't be natural.  But those same things can be seen on naturals and are not unusual.

doriann ist huge in the early pics, butt you go and show me some naturals who carry more size at that bodyfat.

This is an impossible thing to prove then.  If i post a picture of similar physique you will just say "look at his skin!  look at his veins! this is steroid fullness.  (no, i can't describe what fullness means)".    

His arms aren't even 16 inches there, so this "size" that you are talking about is just as invisible as these skin-and-veins details and "fullness" that you say are not possible for a natural.

[no one]

It's moving the goal posts because you don't actually concede and then you change the argument.

Perhaps the reason you think this is beyond what is achievable naturally is because you were very small or flat or veinless as a natural.  Not everyone is.  

The "little details" you mention are the entire argument.  You think you see particular things about his veins or skin (which you can't describe, or wont describe) that means he can't be natural.  But those same things can be seen on naturals and are not unusual.

This is an impossible thing to prove then.  If i post a picture of similar physique you will just say "look at his skin!  look at his veins! this is steroid fullness.  (no, i can't describe what fullness means)".    

His arms aren't even 16 inches there, so this "size" that you are talking about is just as invisible as these skin-and-veins details and "fullness" that you say are not possible for a natural.

or perhaps his observations are based on over 15 years of experience?

there are certain attributes anabolics users manifest that are readily apparent to guys who use.

if you dont understand this then theres little sense educating you further.

keep taking your creatine and reading muscle and fitness, sunshine.

[phreak]

QFT.

Some of you guys on this board live in a world of delusion.  You can be as funny as fuck when ragging the shit out of each other, but when it comes to gear and what can be achieved most of you seem clueless. 

Get this in your heads - there are countless guys out there who look much better than the Yates "before"pic who have never taken steroids.  I know plenty of guys who love training, who are not "bodybuilders" in anyway, who look "better".  Better meaning "more drug like" - harder, fuller etc in their better bodyparts.  And yet these guys can't hold a candle genetically to Mr Olympia Dorian Yates. 

This constant internet BS that Dorian has weak genetics is gibberish. He may not have had Wheeler's aesthetic genes, but the man was born to be lean and muscular in a way that us mere mortals can only ever dream of. 

Have to agree with this. Trained with a number of sprinters who all looked much fuller and more cut. And I know they were clean because they were asking me where to buy roids. 

[Shockwave]

or perhaps his observations are based on over 15 years of experience?

there are certain attributes anabolics users manifest that are readily apparent to guys who use.

if you dont understand this then theres little sense educating you further.

keep taking your creatine and reading muscle and fitness, sunshine.

as I go on it becomes increasingly easy to spot the 'look' of someone on, even if its just HRT. It just looks different.. as gal said, a 'fullness', pop to the muscles... capped delts in a certain way... impossible to describe but when you see it you just KNOW.

I only really started to spot it since ive been using, and hanging around those that use. It becomes a very distinct look once you know what youre looking for.

[wes]

As I said earlier,all pics of Yates in this thread = gear usage,except the one of him in the jeans.

Guys who can`t see this haven`t been around long enough,or just don`t know what to look for....OR BOTH.

[dogbowl]

impossible to describe but when you see it you just KNOW.

Lol.  Well i'm convinced!
(I'm also convinced that i could post a photo of my (natural) deltoids which would have the wise getbiggers nodding to themselves going "yes yes, see the fullness and the pop?  This is what i'm talking about"

[dogbowl]

The only person you can really be sure is a natural is yourself.  And if you think that relatively small muscles and a few chest or shoulder veins are impossible, it says a lot about the results you achieved while natural.

Guys who can`t see this haven`t been around long enough,or just don`t know what to look for....OR BOTH.

Or they got to a similar size without drugs and are confused as to what all the fuss is about.

or perhaps his observations are based on over 15 years of experience?

If he is too busy in the world of drugs, he probably has no experience of what naturals can achieve.  Or has forgotten.  Or never knew to begin with.  

there are certain attributes anabolics users manifest that are readily apparent to guys who use.

Except that you can't even give a basic description of these attributes ("pop" and "fullness" are too vague, and the talk of veins is even more vague.), and yet they are visible in poor quality old photos?  

keep taking your creatine and reading muscle and fitness, sunshine.

Apparently i am doing pretty well for myself naturally, because i seem to have achieved what is not supposed to be possible without drugs.  (I take it as a compliment.)  

And a reminder of what we are talking about:  a few barely visible chest veins, shoulder veins, 16 inch arms (maybe), a flat adonis belt, and visible abs.  

I'm shocked that some of you think that a future Mr Olympia (or anyone else with good genes) could never look like this natural.  

[ESFitness]

My curiosity is because i have seen competitive bodybuilders having low blood sugar issues on 28iu a day (slin) or less, but i have read some getbiggers assuring they were using 150 to 200 iu a day while eating twice daily.

well, you can have low blood sugar issues on 5iu insulin.

with increasing gh use, you have increased insulin resistance, hence a greater tolerance for insulin.. however I seriously doubt 150-200iu/day.

I've been up to 40-60iu/day without gh, and that was pushing it.. add in gh and I can estimate MAYBE going to 80-100iu/day.. and that's a big maybe, and only conjecture.

[ProudVirgin69]

Lol.  Well i'm convinced!
(I'm also convinced that i could post a photo of my (natural) deltoids which would have the wise getbiggers nodding to themselves going "yes yes, see the fullness and the pop?  This is what i'm talking about"

Feel free to post a picture of your impressive natural physique.

[HandsomeMOFO]

nobody here said dorian has bad genetics.duh.

and you know those countless guys are honest because?

you have your opinion, others have their opinions,its all good.

You needed drugs to look this good?  Fine.

Not all do.

[Roger Bacon]

So does anyone really know what causes the big belly?

[ProudVirgin69]

So does anyone really know what causes the big belly?

Lots of food/carbs + gh-induced insulin resistance = visceral fat

[Roger Bacon]

Lots of food/carbs + gh-induced insulin resistance = visceral fat

Does that mean fat organs?

Sounds pretty damn unhealthy 

[dogbowl]

You needed drugs to look this good?  Fine.

Not all do.

This is a good summary !

[hazbin]

So does anyone really know what causes the big belly?

mine's from beer

[Roger Bacon]

mine's from beer

lol

[ProudVirgin69]

Does that mean fat organs?

Sounds pretty damn unhealthy 

Nah its fat surrounding the organs in your abdomen....not to be confused with subcutaneous fat, fat that lies underneath the skin.

  As far as i know, the "gh makes your organs grow" thing is unfounded.  I'm guessing people heard that gh can increase the size of your heart and assumed it would have this effect on all vital organs.

[Roger Bacon]

Nah its fat surrounding the organs in your abdomen....not to be confused with subcutaneous fat, fat that lies underneath the skin.

  As far as i know, the "gh makes your organs grow" thing is unfounded.  I'm guessing people heard that gh can increase the size of your heart and assumed it would have this effect on all vital organs.

Oh, I see

thanks for the info!

[ESFitness]

Lots of food/carbs + gh-induced insulin resistance = visceral fat

I've thought that in the past, but I find it goes against logic that you can have 4% bf, but yet have a massive amount of visceral fat.

you can take a guy with a "gh belly", have him cut his food for a few days and he'll have a 'normal' waistline.... that, and muscle.