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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Cavalier22 on February 23, 2007, 12:17:42 PM
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why didnt he stay in camel country?
"A father killed his wife and four daughters in their sleep because he could not bear them adopting a more westernised lifestyle, an inquest heard yesterday.
Mohammed Riaz, 49, found it abhorrent that his eldest daughter wanted to be a fashion designer, and that she and her sisters were likely to reject the Muslim tradition of arranged marriages. On Hallowe’en last year he sprayed petrol throughout their terraced home in Accrington, Lancs, and set it alight.
Caneze Riaz, 39, woke and tried to protect her three-year-old child, Hannah, who was sleeping with her, but was overcome by fumes. Her other daughters, Sayrah, 16, Sophia, 13, and Alisha, 10, died elsewhere in the house. Riaz, who had spent the evening drinking, set himself on fire and died two days later. ...
Riaz, who had spent all but the last 17 years of his life in the North West Frontier region of Pakistan, met his Anglo-Pakistani wife when her father sent her to the sub-continent to find a husband.
After an arranged marriage, she developed a career as a community leader in Accrington while he, handicapped by a lack of English, took on a series of low-paid jobs.
After Mrs Riaz’s father died she “suddenly felt less beholden to Mohammed”, a friend said. “She started to develop her own circle of friends and allowed the girls to express themselves in a more western way.”
She began to work with women who felt suppressed by Asian culture and many saw her as a role model for young Asian women."
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Very, very sad. A three year old killed at that. :'(
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:o >:(
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Any link?
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looking on the bright side, there's a few less of 'em now. hmmm now if the rest would take heed
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it was the wifes fault .. she let the infidel western pig ways of life into their union
shout out to allah1
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Absolute bullshit.. I feel really angry now.
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The son is dying of leukemia in the hospital, and they had to tell him his whole family is wiped out, so he gets to die alone, knowing that. :'(
http://dvmemorial.wordpress.com/2006/11/06/caneze-riaz-daughters/
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The son is dying of leukemia in the hospital, and they had to tell him his whole family is wiped out, so he gets to die alone, knowing that. :'(
http://dvmemorial.wordpress.com/2006/11/06/caneze-riaz-daughters/
tragic..
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looking on the bright side, there's a few less of 'em now. hmmm now if the rest would take heed
Why does it not surprise me a Leeds fan said this?
You didn't happen to visit Turkey a few years back?
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Muslim won't just get you... It'll get your whole family, because you're fucking NUTS!
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And of course we've never heard of murder/suicide or infanticide here in the "Western World"? :-\
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And of course we've never heard of murder/suicide or infanticide here in the "Western World"? :-\
Not becuase someone's daughter wanted to be a fashion designer
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Not becuase someone's daughter wanted to be a fashion designer
I will admit it's definitely different, but is it any worse than mothers who kill their children so they aren't "warped into sinners" by the world?
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...or fathers who kill their children because they are unemployed.
...or mothers who kill their children so they are free to date.
...or mothers who kill their children because God told them to
...or mothers who jump off highway overpasses with their babies in their arms.
...or fathers who douse their kids in gasoline and set them ablaze in their beds...
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...or fathers who kill their children because they are unemployed.
...or mothers who kill their children so they are free to date.
...or mothers who kill their children because God told them to
...or mothers who jump off highway overpasses with their babies in their arms.
...or fathers who douse their kids in gasoline and set them ablaze in their beds...
The difference is that the above are random acts of violence (except maybe no 3) and no others in a community need fear that the same kind of acts will be perpetrated on them. In this case, the act is like a hate crime, or act of terrorism because it sends a message to many others of the same community to "heed a warning." I think.
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The difference is that the above are random acts of violence (except maybe no 3) and no others in a community need fear that the same kind of acts will be perpetrated on them. In this case, the act is like a hate crime, or act of terrorism because it sends a message to many others of the same community to "heed a warning." I think.
While I see your point DeeDee... to me... Crazy is crazy... you can wrap it around religion, culture, money, whatever... It's still crazy.
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While I see your point DeeDee... to me... Crazy is crazy... you can wrap it around religion, culture, money, whatever... It's still crazy.
Yes of course. But the reason this sort of thing sparks more outrage, news space, is because of the fact that the negative impact affects a whole community of people.
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Yes of course. But the reason this sort of thing sparks more outrage, news space, is because of the fact that the negative impact affects a whole community of people.
I think it's more about the topic of the day... Right now, anyone from the South East Europe or South West Asia area (See Middle East) do anything crazy will get the press... This is certainly the case.
If this guy had been a white guy, no one would have said more than, this is some crazy white dude who's lost his mind... because he's Middle Eastern, it's a cultural issue and it's designed to show how crazy those people from the Deserts are...
While I do know his cultural upbringing is a part of it, I am fairly certain that it's a bigger issue because of that then it would be if he was an Amish guy who did the same thing.
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The difference is that the above are random acts of violence (except maybe no 3) and no others in a community need fear that the same kind of acts will be perpetrated on them. In this case, the act is like a hate crime, or act of terrorism because it sends a message to many others of the same community to "heed a warning." I think.
Point taken, however I believe that fathers who commit violence against their children also falls into the category of terrorrism that sends a message to others in the community. There are many women who are afraid to leave abusive households because they themselves have been threatened with violence, or their kids have. For every case of spousal homicide, or infanticide, ...it sends a chilling message to those who have also been threatened with it.
I also think Tu_holmes is bang on the money with his comment.
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Point taken, however I believe that fathers who commit violence against their children also falls into the category of terrorrism that sends a message to others in the community. There are many women who are afraid to leave abusive households because they themselves have been threatened with violence, or their kids have. For every case of spousal homicide, or infanticide, ...it sends a chilling message to those who have also been threatened with it.
I also think Tu_holmes is bang on the money with his comment.
Yes you're right, and women in general have more to fear in their daily lives than men do. As far as spousal violence goes, it transcends many societal factors... rich, poor, ethnicity, etc... abused women are found in every walk of life. This particular case is a little more specific. A few crude examples would be: if I read that a murdering rapist was loose in my town, I'd worry. If I heard only blonde women were targeted, I'd be 100 times more worried. Men pulverize each other in bars every weekend. If I were your average caucasian jock, I'd take my chances in any jock, sports bar. If I were gay, however, I'd worry a lot more about getting the beatdown of my life any time I stepped into one. This is like that. Women of a certain community are sent a message that if they don't toe the line, they could be next. I'm a little surprised that an emancipated woman would downplay this. You're entitled to your opinion of course. Just a little surprised. If Amish men in particular were abusing or victimizing women, I would hope that would be discovered and exposed. Why is exposing this any different? Should people be silent to avoid offending others of another culture?
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Yes you're right, and women in general have more to fear in their daily lives than men do. As far as spousal violence goes, it transcends many societal factors... rich, poor, ethnicity, etc... abused women are found in every walk of life. This particular case is a little more specific. A few crude examples would be: if I read that a murdering rapist was loose in my town, I'd worry. If I heard only blonde women were targeted, I'd be 100 times more worried. Men pulverize each other in bars every weekend. If I were your average caucasian jock, I'd take my chances in any jock, sports bar. If I were gay, however, I'd worry a lot more about getting the beatdown of my life any time I stepped into one. This is like that. Women of a certain community are sent a message that if they don't toe the line, they could be next. I'm a little surprised that an emancipated woman would downplay this. You're entitled to your opinion of course. Just a little surprised. If Amish men in particular were abusing or victimizing women, I would hope that would be discovered and exposed. Why is exposing this any different? Should people be silent to avoid offending others of another culture?
You'll, no doubt, join with me in condemning nations like Saudi Arabia, where women are treated in a disgusting fashion?
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You'll, no doubt, join with me in condemning nations like Saudi Arabia, where women are treated in a disgusting fashion?
Yes, very much so. I have very strong feelings about this, in fact.
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Yes you're right, and women in general have more to fear in their daily lives than men do. As far as spousal violence goes, it transcends many societal factors... rich, poor, ethnicity, etc... abused women are found in every walk of life. This particular case is a little more specific. A few crude examples would be: if I read that a murdering rapist was loose in my town, I'd worry. If I heard only blonde women were targeted, I'd be 100 times more worried. Men pulverize each other in bars every weekend. If I were your average caucasian jock, I'd take my chances in any jock, sports bar. If I were gay, however, I'd worry a lot more about getting the beatdown of my life any time I stepped into one. This is like that. Women of a certain community are sent a message that if they don't toe the line, they could be next. I'm a little surprised that an emancipated woman would downplay this. You're entitled to your opinion of course. Just a little surprised. If Amish men in particular were abusing or victimizing women, I would hope that would be discovered and exposed. Why is exposing this any different? Should people be silent to avoid offending others of another culture?
Not at all... I'm sure there's tons of spousal abuse in Amish society... as there is with any social sub-culture, however it's not all over the news.
No one is saying be silent, not in the slightest, however I'm quite certain that his ethnicity is playing a much larger role in it's newsworthiness... That's just how things are right now.
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Yes, very much so. I have very strong feelings about this, in fact.
Most do, however it is their culture... Are we to simply go around telling other complete societies how to live?
I think not... I don't think it's at all right, however, if that's the way the culture is, I have to respect their beliefs... I would think that those in Western societies should just be happy that they are not living there.
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Most do, however it is their culture... Are we to simply go around telling other complete societies how to live?
I think not... I don't think it's at all right, however, if that's the way the culture is, I have to respect their beliefs... I would think that those in Western societies should just be happy that they are not living there.
Well, you don't have to respect their beliefs at all, even if nothing can be done about it. But as a wise person once said, "the west has every right to defend her hardwon right of equality." This behavior doesn't have to be condoned in the west, just because it belongs to a culture that encourages the abuse of women in other, less enlightened countries.
Edit: I was paraphrasing. The correct quote is... "The West has every right to defend its character, including its hard-won principle of equality."
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Most do, however it is their culture... Are we to simply go around telling other complete societies how to live?
I think not... I don't think it's at all right, however, if that's the way the culture is, I have to respect their beliefs... I would think that those in Western societies should just be happy that they are not living there.
I've got bad news for you - if you haven't seen the influx of Muslims into Western civilisations - that still believe they can treat women as such.
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Well, you don't have to respect their beliefs at all, even if nothing can be done about it. But as a wise person once said, "the west has every right to defend her hardwon right of equality." This behavior doesn't have to be condoned in the west, just because it belongs to a culture that encourages the abuse of women in other, less enlightened countries.
Edit: I was paraphrasing. The correct quote is... "The West has every right to defend its character, including its hard-won principle of equality."
Hey, I'm not saying it should be... If someone migrates to another area, they should do what is done THERE. When in Rome and all that.
If someone moves across the street from me and he beats his wife, he should go to prison or whatever, it should not be tolerated... I'm simply saying that if I move to Saudi Arabia and everyone beats their wives there, while I may not, I certainly have no right to tell them it's wrong.
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I'm simply saying that if I move to Saudi Arabia and everyone beats their wives there, while I may not, I certainly have no right to tell them it's wrong.
You don't have a right to tell them that's wrong when in Saudi Arabia. That's because they would execute you for not being Islamic. Where you are right now, you can, and you should.
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You don't have a right to tell them that's wrong when in Saudi Arabia. That's because they would execute you for not being Islamic. Where you are right now, you can, and you should.
First off, I'm not defending them, nor their culture (as you seem to be alluding to), because it's not mine... but it IS theirs. You may not like it, but that's the way it is... you nor any other person has any right to say that their way is worse than yours.
You "believe" it to be worse, but in reality, that's just your opinion and there's millions of "alalalalalalalalala"s running around who say otherwise.
Now, the point I'm making is not about who has "rights" or what have you... It's simple... when you go to other countries in general, you assimilate. You should... If you move to France for a job, learn French... Germany, German and so on.
If anyone who is of a culture that disrespects women moves to a civilization that does not, then they need to learn to deal with it and assimilate... that's my point. Don't make this about Islam, because it's not.
You could be in a tribe in Africa and they could be the same way, but they don't fly airplanes into buildings... So, my point IS if you move to another area whose culture is different from yours, you should assimilate to that culture, or what's the point of moving in the first place.
Even if it's about money... it's about the money that being in that culture provides you.
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So, my point IS if you move to another area whose culture is different from yours, you should assimilate to that culture, or what's the point of moving in the first place.
What is teh funny here:
Objective analysis of the cause and effect of different cultural aspects can to some degree determine the optimal building blocks for the culture.
For example: We can analyze and determine that cultures that circumcise young girls is worse off than cultures that does not support such acts.
The same is true for the negative aspects of certain Arabic cultures (hitting women++).
Battling different moral opinions = usually pointless, because measurement can never show what is truly best since an opinion is ... just that.
But by carefully analyzing the actual effects different moral opinions and cultural attributes have on a society, one can determine certain principles that should be applied everywhere.
An Arabic (or any other culture for that matter) that supports violence and suppression of women does not follow such principles. Thus, assimilating into it is in certain way best in a narrow point of view, but it does not make it right when seen against measurable reason and logic.
In other words, if your statement holds true, moving to an Arabic state must have pretty huge benefits for the individual to justify moving there.
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What is teh funny here:
Objective analysis of the cause and effect of different cultural aspects can to some degree determine the optimal building blocks for the culture.
For example: We can analyze and determine that cultures that circumcise young girls is worse off than cultures that does not support such acts.
The same is true for the negative aspects of certain Arabic cultures (hitting women++).
Battling different moral opinions = usually pointless, because measurement can never show what is truly best since an opinion is ... just that.
But by carefully analyzing the actual effects different moral opinions and cultural attributes have on a society, one can determine certain principles that should be applied everywhere.
An Arabic (or any other culture for that matter) that supports violence and suppression of women does not follow such principles. Thus, assimilating into it is in certain way best in a narrow point of view, but it does not make it right when seen against measurable reason and logic.
In other words, if your statement holds true, moving to an Arabic state must have pretty huge benefits for the individual to justify moving there.
This post explains why us in the west in many areas are the most highly developed moral societies on the planet, because the morals our societies = built on = in many areas the result of reason and logic, while less developed cultures still operates on morals based on the opposite: Irrational and unreasonable cultural heritage (how can anybody defend circumsition of 2 year old girls? ::) ) that leads to more pain. For example, hitting and suppression of women, lack of religious freedom, things like circumsition of women and so on are all irrational social heritage that leads to more pain than good. Some people have the guts to claim that such acts can be justified because tradition = a unifying force for a population, yet this "advantage" pales in comparison to the pain it creates.
This also explains why strong religious beliefs never should be the basis for the morals in any society with certain modern traits. Morals found in religion is not automatically bad, the opposite is often true, but it should never be applied until it has been judged by reason and logic.
Long live the freedom we have in the west.
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First off, I'm not defending them, nor their culture (as you seem to be alluding to), because it's not mine... but it IS theirs. You may not like it, but that's the way it is... you nor any other person has any right to say that their way is worse than yours.
You "believe" it to be worse, but in reality, that's just your opinion and there's millions of "alalalalalalalalala"s running around who say otherwise.
Now, the point I'm making is not about who has "rights" or what have you... It's simple... when you go to other countries in general, you assimilate. You should... If you move to France for a job, learn French... Germany, German and so on.
If anyone who is of a culture that disrespects women moves to a civilization that does not, then they need to learn to deal with it and assimilate... that's my point. Don't make this about Islam, because it's not.
You could be in a tribe in Africa and they could be the same way, but they don't fly airplanes into buildings... So, my point IS if you move to another area whose culture is different from yours, you should assimilate to that culture, or what's the point of moving in the first place.
Even if it's about money... it's about the money that being in that culture provides you.
I'm not alluding to that, and I'm not talking about you moving there. Criticise from the sweet air of freedom. These men are scum and should be called out as such.
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This post explains why us in the west in many areas are the most highly developed moral societies on the planet, because the morals our societies = built on = in many areas the result of reason and logic, while less developed cultures still operates on morals based on the opposite: Irrational and unreasonable cultural heritage (how can anybody defend circumsition of 2 year old girls? ::) ) that leads to more pain. For example, hitting and suppression of women, lack of religious freedom, things like circumsition of women and so on are all irrational social heritage that leads to more pain than good. Some people have the guts to claim that such acts can be justified because tradition = a unifying force for a population, yet this "advantage" pales in comparison to the pain it creates.
Long live the freedom we have in the west.
Amen to that.
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What is teh funny here:
In other words, if your statement holds true, moving to an Arabic state must have pretty huge benefits for the individual to justify moving there.
Absolutely... which I why I sure am not moving there anytime.
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I'm not alluding to that, and I'm not talking about you moving there. Criticise from the sweet air of freedom. These men are scum and should be called out as such.
I never said they were not scum... I deplore what he did. My point was that even if it is OK in his former society, that's not his society now... well, at the time he did that deed.
Of course I criticize from the "air of freedom" as you put it... I'm fortunate enough to live HERE.
If I was not, then I would not know any better as I would have been conditioned to believe that what I was doing at the time was indeed "right".
I have never said that I do not enjoy my freedoms... I certainly do... enough to fight tooth and nail to keep them, even though some would say that makes me for "them", and not "us".
How does my critique in "free air" have anything to do with the subject?
The fact you can retort is also a symbol of the freedom we share.
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Amen to that.
Debussey must stop writing here. You might get a hunch of Debusseys argumentative style. = you can exploit it.
Do not worry: Debussey can be a chameleon. :D
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I never said they were not scum... I deplore what he did. My point was that even if it is OK in his former society, that's not his society now... well, at the time he did that deed.
Of course I criticize from the "air of freedom" as you put it... I'm fortunate enough to live HERE.
If I was not, then I would not know any better as I would have been conditioned to believe that what I was doing at the time was indeed "right".
I have never said that I do not enjoy my freedoms... I certainly do... enough to fight tooth and nail to keep them, even though some would say that makes me for "them", and not "us".
How does my critique in "free air" have anything to do with the subject?
The fact you can retort is also a symbol of the freedom we share.
I'm asking you to condemn Muslim men that believe in treating women like they are filth. Will you do so?
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I'm asking you to condemn Muslim men that believe in treating women like they are filth. Will you do so?
Not if they are in a Muslim country, I will not... because that is the only way they know... abuse is taught.
However, if they are in a western country which has different rules and guidelines for existing in its society, then yes.
Does that answer your question?
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I'm asking you to condemn Muslim men that believe in treating women like they are filth. Will you do so?
There exist one problem here: Muslim men = brought up with irrationality. Their whole reality is built on teh worship of ze irrational. Only when they truly embrace logic and reason will the Muslim world grow up. That will not happen in the near future.
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There exist one problem here: Muslim men = brought up with irrationality. Their whole reality is built on teh worship of ze irrational. Only when they truly embrace logic and reason will the Muslim world grow up. That will not happen in the near future.
I'm gonna be generous and say... oh... 500 years give or take a century and they'll be able to embrace teh logic and reason.
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Not if they are in a Muslim country, I will not... because that is the only way they know... abuse is taught.
However, if they are in a western country which has different rules and guidelines for existing in its society, then yes.
Does that answer your question?
Yes, it does - you support people in Saudi Arabia abusing women in the name of Islam.
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Yes, it does - you support people in Saudi Arabia abusing women in the name of Islam.
Put whatever spin you want to on it Bruce... If you were born there, you'd be doing the same thing.
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Muslim men are not taught to abuse their wives. Education is the biggest factor here (teh logic and reason). No educated muslim will tell you it is okay to beat your wife. This applies to all human beings.
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Muslim men are not taught to abuse their wives. Education is the biggest factor here (teh logic and reason). No educated muslim will tell you it is okay to beat your wife. This applies to all human beings.
Haider, does the government in Saudi Arabia do anything to stop Muslim men beating their wives or circumcising young women?
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Haider, does the government in Saudi Arabia do anything to stop Muslim men beating their wives or circumcising young women?
Watch out Haider... Next thing you know, it'll be you're either with him, or you're with them!
The government there is very tied to the religion... Of course they don't do anything about it... Their religion and culture has that as fundamental rule.
If you think it's so bad Bruce... feel free to go over to Saudi and tell them to stop it... I'll be looking for you on the evening news.
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Watch out Haider... Next thing you know, it'll be you're either with him, or you're with them!
The government there is very tied to the religion... Of course they don't do anything about it... Their religion and culture has that as fundamental rule.
If you think it's so bad Bruce... feel free to go over to Saudi and tell them to stop it... I'll be looking for you on the evening news.
You're a fool, you won't even condemn such acts from the safety of your computer room. Now let others speak.
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Haider, does the government in Saudi Arabia do anything to stop Muslim men beating their wives or circumcising young women?
I'm not the best person to ask but I'm sure they have strict punishment for domestic crime. As to how well it is enforced is a different story and not something I know very much about. I've never heard of the practice of female circumcision in Saudia arabia. In fact I don't think very many muslims practice this at all.
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You're a fool, you won't even condemn such acts from the safety of your computer room. Now let others speak.
No Bruce, I just realize that the world is much bigger than the little teeny neighborhood you must feel comfort in staying in... Whether you like to believe it or not, the world and the people in it are much more complex than you seem to be able to grasp... If that makes me a "fool" as you put it, then I'm ok with that... Your lack of approval of what I believe to be right in the world will not keep me from sleeping at night...
Back to your backwoods shack you go.
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I'm not the best person to ask but I'm sure they have strict punishment for domestic crime. As to how well it is enforced is a different story and not something I know very much about. I've never heard of the practice of female circumcision in Saudia arabia. In fact I don't think very many muslims practice this at all.
I've heard of it in Africa on numerous occasions and while Saudi Arabia is an African nation, I doubt it's common place...
Oh wait... I'm supposed to stop typing because Bruce told me too... silly me.
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Watch out Haider... Next thing you know, it'll be you're either with him, or you're with them!
The government there is very tied to the religion... Of course they don't do anything about it... Their religion and culture has that as fundamental rule.
If you think it's so bad Bruce... feel free to go over to Saudi and tell them to stop it... I'll be looking for you on the evening news.
haha, u're quite the cultural relativist aren't you. We can definitely make moral judgements that pertain to other societies since we have the mental capacity for logic and reason. This is how we can judge one society to be morally inferior, or backwards in some respects, to another society that grants its constituents better freedoms. Abuse of women can never be good for society in any case, so u cant even make a utilitarian case for it.
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haha, u're quite the cultural relativist aren't you. We can definitely make moral judgements that pertain to other societies since we have the mental capacity for logic and reason. This is how we can judge one society to be morally inferior, or backwards in some respects, to another society that grants its constituents better freedoms. Abuse of women can never be good for society in any case, so u cant even make a utilitarian case for it.
Dear Haider.
Logic and reason will always come out on top.
And there is no reason to make a code about that. :D
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haha, u're quite the cultural relativist aren't you. We can definitely make moral judgements that pertain to other societies since we have the mental capacity for logic and reason. This is how we can judge one society to be morally inferior, or backwards in some respects, to another society that grants its constituents better freedoms. Abuse of women can never be good for society in any case, so u cant even make a utilitarian case for it.
I am... yes, I believe that people who don't know... just don't know... All of these things are learned traits.
Lord of the Flies... If the society is anarchy... all of the people in it will be Anarchists... same thing applies.
In a society where all treat women as possessions and objects, that's how it will be... only after education will that change.
Even our society only BEGAN to treat women as equals about 100 years ago... Women had no say and were in fact property.
I believe the Commonwealth of Virginia still has a law on the books until maybe 10 or 15 years ago that says you can not rape your wife... She is your spouse and is supposed to succumb to your desire.
They also had a law that states you can beat your wife with a stick as long as it's not bigger than your thumb in diameter.... This too was just removed recently.
These are very NEW ideas in even our society... how can we expect a society who has no where near our social advancement to be as we are... I've said it before and I'll say it again... Socially speaking, our ideas are at least 500 years more advanced than there's.
I would never say that the abuse of women is good for a society... my point is that THEY don't know it's not good... WE do... That's why in our society it's not allowed... the original point was that since this guy left his society for ours, he should assimilate to our ways and be educated that masogany is wrong and if he didn't like it... go back where he came from.
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You simply cannot use the cultural excuse for Islam anymore. The religion itself, like all other religions, is outdated and backwards. It supresses women, discriminates against rational thinking, reasoning, and it shuns learning.
Most muslims will make excuses about how they're not a certain way and that the extreme muslims are different from most muslims. They'll argue that they're the true muslims and the islamic crazies are the wild and radical ones. However, one thing they wont dispute is that the fact the the Islamic faith teaches extreme and backwards beliefs and it also teaches supression of women. You cannot escape these facts, as they prove 1) Islam is backwards 2) Islam preaches violence.
In the global age we've seen hindus, christians and others move away from their violent past, this is simply because the rules of their faith have allowed them to do so. We don't see this with Islam, as true muslims are the terrorists and moderates are the one's who inside question their faith and on the outside continue to defend the barbaric faith that is Islam.
This may be a drunken rant but it's 100% true and you can't dispute it.
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You simply cannot use the cultural excuse for Islam anymore. The religion itself, like all other religions, is outdated and backwards. It supresses women, discriminates against rational thinking, reasoning, and it shuns learning.
Most muslims will make excuses about how they're not a certain way and that the extreme muslims are different from most muslims. They'll argue that they're the true muslims and the islamic crazies are the wild and radical ones. However, one thing they wont dispute is that the fact the the Islamic faith teaches extreme and backwards beliefs and it also teaches supression of women. You cannot escape these facts, as they prove 1) Islam is backwards 2) Islam preaches violence.
In the global age we've seen hindus, christians and others move away from their violent past, this is simply because the rules of their faith have allowed them to do so. We don't see this with Islam, as true muslims are the terrorists and moderates are the one's who inside question their faith and on the outside continue to defend the barbaric faith that is Islam.
This may be a drunken rant but it's 100% true and you can't dispute it.
That's actually an excellent post, you should get drunk more often!
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That's actually an excellent post, you should get drunk more often!
And that's after 6 shots too! 8)
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You simply cannot use the cultural excuse for Islam anymore. The religion itself, like all other religions, is outdated and backwards. It supresses women, discriminates against rational thinking, reasoning, and it shuns learning.
Most muslims will make excuses about how they're not a certain way and that the extreme muslims are different from most muslims. They'll argue that they're the true muslims and the islamic crazies are the wild and radical ones. However, one thing they wont dispute is that the fact the the Islamic faith teaches extreme and backwards beliefs and it also teaches supression of women. You cannot escape these facts, as they prove 1) Islam is backwards 2) Islam preaches violence.
In the global age we've seen hindus, christians and others move away from their violent past, this is simply because the rules of their faith have allowed them to do so. We don't see this with Islam, as true muslims are the terrorists and moderates are the one's who inside question their faith and on the outside continue to defend the barbaric faith that is Islam.
This may be a drunken rant but it's 100% true and you can't dispute it.
Hey, if you wanna hate on Islam, I guess that's ok... It's hard for me to do when not EVERYONE acts the same way in the faith though... There are some peaceful muslim's out there. I treat them individually...
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And that's after 6 shots too! 8)
Get that man another drink!
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Hey, if you wanna hate on Islam, I guess that's ok... It's hard for me to do when not EVERYONE acts the same way in the faith though... There are some peaceful muslim's out there. I treat them individually...
I don't think pointing out the obvious flaws in a belief system is hating anything other than beliefs. Are you okay with that?
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I don't think pointing out the obvious flaws in a belief system is hating anything other than beliefs. Are you okay with that?
Yes, I can agree with that statement... There are many flaws in it's belief system.
There are many flaws in pretty much any belief system... so I have no issue with what you're saying.
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Yes, I can agree with that statement... There are many flaws in it's belief system.
There are many flaws in pretty much any belief system... so I have no issue with what you're saying.
Excellent! We can only have a good debate on Islam when people realise there's nothing wrong with criticising belief systems.
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Excellent! We can only have a good debate on Islam when people realise there's nothing wrong with criticising belief systems.
I criticize them all.
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I criticize them all.
For example?
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For example?
Well, I think Christianity contains so many flaws that it's not even remotely funny... Your southern Baptists take communion but think drinking is wrong, so they drink Grape Juice... While Jesus supposedly turned water into wine.
Catholics say that Priests must be celebate however, Jesus himself (if you believe in his existance... which is highly suspect as I've recently researched) believed that marriage (and the church also believes this) is the holiest of Sacraments.
Mormons... well... we can talk about a guy getting hit on a rock and waking up to see Jesus and start a religion all day long.
Islam of course has faults, and Scientology has their crazy shit of course... I could go on.
I don't really consider Budhism a religion, but a philosophy, so I'll let it slide as I haven't researched it enough.
My point being you can criticize any religion if you really want to look at them.
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Well, I think Christianity contains so many flaws that it's not even remotely funny... Your southern Baptists take communion but think drinking is wrong, so they drink Grape Juice... While Jesus supposedly turned water into wine.
Catholics say that Priests must be celebate however, Jesus himself (if you believe in his existance... which is highly suspect as I've recently researched) believed that marriage (and the church also believes this) is the holiest of Sacraments.
Mormons... well... we can talk about a guy getting hit on a rock and waking up to see Jesus and start a religion all day long.
Islam of course has faults, and Scientology has their crazy shit of course... I could go on.
I don't really consider Budhism a religion, but a philosophy, so I'll let it slide as I haven't researched it enough.
My point being you can criticize any religion if you really want to look at them.
Uh huh, you really compare all of this to a young woman unwillingly having part of her clitoris chopped off?
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Uh huh, you really compare all of this to a young woman unwillingly having part of her clitoris chopped off?
Nope... But that is not just Islam, and it's a cultural thing... I wasn't comparing them at all... Are you?
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Nope... But that is not just Islam, and it's a cultural thing... I wasn't comparing them at all... Are you?
Yes, I am. And Christianity is a much fairer and caring religion for women.
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Yes, I am. And Christianity is a much fairer and caring religion for women.
Interesting... I wasn't comparing... However, it is funny... they weren't always that way... Women are property in the Bible too.
Whatever you wanna go with though.
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Interesting... I wasn't comparing... However, it is funny... they weren't always that way... Women are property in the Bible too.
Whatever you wanna go with though.
Perhaps you should pay more attention to how Christians act, rather than what you believe the Bible says.
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Muslim men are not taught to abuse their wives. Education is the biggest factor here (teh logic and reason). No educated muslim will tell you it is okay to beat your wife. This applies to all human beings.
Ironic you should say this, given the FACT that a lot of islamic fundamentalists in western society come from rich, highly educated backgrounds.
Refute it.
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Perhaps you should pay more attention to how Christians act, rather than what you believe the Bible says.
There are Christians who kill drown their children, commit adultery (If you think it's a sin), and beat their wives too... What's their excuse?
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There are Christians who kill drown their children, commit adultery (If you think it's a sin), and beat their wives too... What's their excuse?
But who acts upon the verses to this very day? Who's progressed and who hasn't?
Why continue to degrade Christianity which has progressed considerably to favour the primitive non-progressive islamic "faith"?
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But who acts upon the verses to this very day? Who's progressed and who hasn't?
Why continue to degrade Christianity which has progressed considerably to favour the primitive non-progressive islamic "faith"?
Hey man... I'm just calling it like I see it... I think all religions are a sham, but if you want to take all that's good... you gotta take what comes out that's bad... A lot of Islam's don't see the hate in their religion, but apparently you do.
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Yes you're right, and women in general have more to fear in their daily lives than men do. As far as spousal violence goes, it transcends many societal factors... rich, poor, ethnicity, etc... abused women are found in every walk of life. This particular case is a little more specific. A few crude examples would be: if I read that a murdering rapist was loose in my town, I'd worry. If I heard only blonde women were targeted, I'd be 100 times more worried. Men pulverize each other in bars every weekend. If I were your average caucasian jock, I'd take my chances in any jock, sports bar. If I were gay, however, I'd worry a lot more about getting the beatdown of my life any time I stepped into one. This is like that. Women of a certain community are sent a message that if they don't toe the line, they could be next. I'm a little surprised that an emancipated woman would downplay this. You're entitled to your opinion of course. Just a little surprised. If Amish men in particular were abusing or victimizing women, I would hope that would be discovered and exposed. Why is exposing this any different? Should people be silent to avoid offending others of another culture?
I'm not saying it shouldn't be exposed or that people should be silent to avoid offending others of another culture.
I'm saying it is what it is... another case of domestic violence, and to report it in a way that makes it infammatory against muslims detracts from the fact that it is domestic violence that cuts across all walks of society. Is it any more outrageous that a Muslim woman was killed? Should we have more empathy for her and her family than we do for a blonde haired, blue eyed, WASP woman murdered at the hands of her husband? I say NO. Each incident should provoke an equal outrage, ...but that's not the case is it?
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Dear Haider.
Logic and reason will always come out on top.
And there is no reason to make a code about that. :D
Didn't seem to help the US at the polls in 2000 ...or 2004
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Uh huh, you really compare all of this to a young woman unwillingly having part of her clitoris chopped off?
You have the audacity to cite this when your religion takes a new born baby boy,
gets it liquored up and whacks it's peepee. ...and this is celebrated? ::)
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You have the audacity to cite this when your religion takes a new born baby boy,
gets it liquored up and whacks it's peepee. ...and this is celebrated? ::)
You don't know what you're talking about, do you?
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Hey man... I'm just calling it like I see it... I think all religions are a sham, but if you want to take all that's good... you gotta take what comes out that's bad... A lot of Islam's don't see the hate in their religion, but apparently you do.
Nazi's thought they were honky dory too.
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You have the audacity to cite this when your religion takes a new born baby boy,
gets it liquored up and whacks it's peepee. ...and this is celebrated? ::)
Are you comparing clitoral mutilation to circumcision?
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Nazi's thought they were honky dory too.
Yep, and pretty much every other religion...
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Yes you're right, and women in general have more to fear in their daily lives than men do.
Men fear for their families who spend all day separated from them and out of their care.
Single men have more to fear than single women, however...I can agree with that.
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Are you comparing clitoral mutilation to circumcision?
Many consider circumcision to be penile mutilation.
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Many consider circumcision to be penile mutilation.
Circumcision has no practical function.
It is some stupid heritage from the past.
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Circumcision has no practical function.
It is some stupid heritage from the past.
Circumcision among gentiles was popularized in the Victorian era by doctors who believed it would help prevent what they considered to be the grave problem of masturbation.
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Circumcision among gentiles was popularized in the Victorian era by doctors who believed it would help prevent what they considered to be the grave problem of masturbation.
Part of the reason some muslims countries do it to women,
...to prevent the grave problems associated with woman actually having sexual pleasure.
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Many consider circumcision to be penile mutilation.
Absurd. It's the removal skin. I see no comparison whatsoever to clitoral mutilation.
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Absurd. It's the removal skin. I see no comparison whatsoever to clitoral mutilation.
Are you supporting the circumsition of young boys? ::)
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Absurd. It's the removal skin. I see no comparison whatsoever to clitoral mutilation.
All depends on your culture then doesn't it?
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Are you supporting the circumsition of young boys? ::)
::)
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All depends on your culture then doesn't it?
No. A procedure is either mutilation or it isn't. Removing skin from a little penis isn't mutilation. Removing a female's clitoris is.
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No. A procedure is either mutilation or it isn't. Removing skin from a little penis isn't mutilation. Removing a female's clitoris is.
It's not a little skin... It's a protective covering... removing something that protects the penis might be considered mutilation don't ya' think?
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It's not a little skin... It's a protective covering... removing something that protects the penis might be considered mutilation don't ya' think?
Protection from what? Mutilation is the removal an essential body part. The removal of excess skin from a little penis doesn't qualify IMO and it certainly doesn't compare to clitoral mutilation at all.
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Protection from what? Mutilation is the removal an essential body part. The removal of excess skin from a little penis doesn't qualify IMO and it certainly doesn't compare to clitoral mutilation at all.
Maybe because you're circumcised? Go ask a non circumcised guy if he thinks it'll be ok to cut it off... see what he thinks about the mutilation then.
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Maybe because you're circumcised? Go ask a non circumcised guy if he thinks it'll be ok to cut it off... see what he thinks about the mutilation then.
We're talking about newborns. I think I'll pass on asking guys whether they are circumcised or not. But you're welcome to do a poll and report the results. :D
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We're talking about newborns. I think I'll pass on asking guys whether they are circumcised or not. But you're welcome to do a poll and report the results. :D
I didn't know there was an age limit on what someone considered "mutilation".
Jews don't get circumcised until their much older.
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Thank god I was mutilated.
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::)
Give a serious answer. It was a serious question posted on a serious board.
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No. A procedure is either mutilation or it isn't. Removing skin from a little penis isn't mutilation. Removing a female's clitoris is.
Tell that to Bast.
Beach bum, circumcision removes more than just a little skin, ...it takes some precious nerve endings with it.
Not to mention the trauma it causes. Most circumcized guys don't miss it because they have no frame of reference, ...much like circumsized girls. If it was simply superfluous skin, God wouldn't have created it to begin with.
Are you saying God erred in his design?
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Tell that to Bast.
Beach bum, circumcision removes more than just a little skin, ...it takes some precious nerve endings with it.
Not to mention the trauma it causes. Most circumcized guys don't miss it because they have no frame of reference, ...much like circumsized girls. If it was simply superfluous skin, God wouldn't have created it to begin with.
Are you saying God erred in his design?
It's not really comparable. Circumcized males are able to orgasm. Circumcized females are not. There are many, many more health, emotional issues related to female mutilation.
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I'm not saying it shouldn't be exposed or that people should be silent to avoid offending others of another culture.
I'm saying it is what it is... another case of domestic violence, and to report it in a way that makes it infammatory against muslims detracts from the fact that it is domestic violence that cuts across all walks of society. Is it any more outrageous that a Muslim woman was killed? Should we have more empathy for her and her family than we do for a blonde haired, blue eyed, WASP woman murdered at the hands of her husband? I say NO. Each incident should provoke an equal outrage, ...but that's not the case is it?
I was curious and so did a little back checking. It seems that this was reported as a typical, tragic spousal abuse case, until the inquest a short time ago. There, friends and family gave statements to the effect that culture did play a part in the husband's choice to off the family. so there doesn't seem to be any bias one way or another on the part of the news sources.
I don't think a muslim woman is worth more than a blonde WASP. However, I don't think she is worth less either. So, as I said before, if a certain group of people keep perpetrating a crime in the name of their culture, that should be exposed and discouraged. Doesn't matter if it's muslims, quakers, whoever commiting the act. It wasn't all that long ago that women of another religious community had reason to fear honor killings. People raised a stink... it doesn't happen anymore.
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Thank god I was mutilated.
;D
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It's not really comparable. Circumcized males are able to orgasm. Circumcized females are not. There are many, many more health, emotional issues related to female mutilation.
Thank you. No comparison.
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I'm not saying it shouldn't be exposed or that people should be silent to avoid offending others of another culture.
I'm saying it is what it is... another case of domestic violence, and to report it in a way that makes it infammatory against muslims detracts from the fact that it is domestic violence that cuts across all walks of society. Is it any more outrageous that a Muslim woman was killed? Should we have more empathy for her and her family than we do for a blonde haired, blue eyed, WASP woman murdered at the hands of her husband? I say NO. Each incident should provoke an equal outrage, ...but that's not the case is it?
It is not just another case of domestic violence. It is one of many instances were a muslims religious beliefs have given him the motivation and right to kill other people (his family!!!) because they are not conforming to his view of a good Muslim. There are many cases like this.
This is not the same as some drunken bum coming home drunk as a skunk and beating his wife or throwing her down the stairs. There are lowlifes among all demographics. But this is another example of the inherent violent and cruel nature of Islam.
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How can anyone with a straight face compare female circumcision to male circumcision? Absurd.
That is almost outrageous as some Muslim brutally killing his children and his wife to defend his "honor".
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More Honor Killings:
Three Palestinian women have been murdered in the Gaza Strip in the past 24 hours, Palestinian Authority security officials and local residents said.
The bodies of the women were discovered early Tuesday in the northern part of the Gaza Strip. The motive for the killings remained unclear. One of the victims, a 35-year-old mother of four, was found near the beach. She had been shot at least 13 times in different parts of her body, said a PA security official.
The other two women were killed separately and their bullet-riddled bodies were discovered late Monday.
The security official said he did not rule out the possibility that the three women were killed by male relatives in the context of what is known as “honor killings.” Such killings are not unusual among Palestinians and many Arab countries. At least 25 women are murdered every year in the West Bank and Gaza Strip for “bringing shame” on their male relatives.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1171894534050&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
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But that's life in a tribal culture. People think honor killings/subjugation of women are just a function of religion but it's much deeper, more entrenched than that. In tribal, patriarchal cultures, male lineage is overwhelmingly important and denotes a family's place in society, financial opportunities, etc. As said before, since women are the vessals of future wealth and family prosperity, keeping her beyond reproach (under a veil, locked in the house, etc) is a priority. Any tinge of impropriety is a smear against the purity of the family lineage and must be snuffed out. A family's community standing and finances can depend on it.
Obviously, this way of thinking doesn't bode well in the west.
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Thank you. No comparison.
Probably the way the castrati were created in the last centuries is more in keeping with the way these "surgeries" have traditionally been performed on girls.
One method was to place a rag in his mouth then hold the boy down forceably while someone grabbed and pulled his scrotum, then removed it with a knife or sharp piece of glass. In an interesting book about the hareem, I read that the boy was often buried waist-deep in sand for a week where he either survived, or didn't. Sexual pleasure was no longer an option.
I get queasy just thinking about it. :-\ No comparison at all.
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Probably the way the castrati were created in the last centuries is more in keeping with the way these "surgeries" have traditionally been performed on girls.
One method was to place a rag in his mouth then hold the boy down forceably while someone grabbed and pulled his scrotum, then removed it with a knife or sharp piece of glass. In an interesting book about the hareem, I read that the boy was often buried waist-deep in sand for a week where he either survived, or didn't. Sexual pleasure was no longer an option.
I get queasy just thinking about it. :-\ No comparison at all.
You get queasy? Geeze. That's torture.
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You get queasy? Geeze. That's torture.
Lol... have you had your lunch yet? :D
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Lol... have you had your lunch yet? :D
Not yet. :) I have a couple hours or so to regain my appetite. I'm going to skip my midmorning snack. :-\
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But that's life in a tribal culture. People think honor killings/subjugation of women are just a function of religion but it's much deeper, more entrenched than that. In tribal, patriarchal cultures, male lineage is overwhelmingly important and denotes a family's place in society, financial opportunities, etc. As said before, since women are the vessals of future wealth and family prosperity, keeping her beyond reproach (under a veil, locked in the house, etc) is a priority. Any tinge of impropriety is a smear against the purity of the family lineage and must be snuffed out. A family's community standing and finances can depend on it.
Obviously, this way of thinking doesn't bode well in the west.
It's all pretty disgusting in my estimation, but still it goes on, and not just in muslim cultures.
Sadly in some western european cultures too... although it's more quiet. Not as much killing, but abuses nonetheless.
I knew many girls who got married right out of highschool as the only acceptable means of getting out from under. :'(
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It's all pretty disgusting in my estimation, but still it goes on, and not just in muslim cultures.
Sadly in some western european cultures too... although it's more quiet. Not as much killing, but abuses nonetheless.
I knew many girls who got married right out of highschool as the only acceptable means of getting out from under. :'(
Yes, I know. Me too. Girls from very strict "old country" Greek and Italian families. :'(
It wasn't all that many years ago, Catholic girls in some countries also had to fear these kind of honor retributions. I think it probably still goes on in some more backwards countries. Only by constantly protesting and exposing these crimes, does the world bear pressure to create change. And it just shouldn't be tolerated in civilized, western countries.
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Yes, I know. Me too. Girls from very strict "old country" Greek and Italian families. :'(
It wasn't all that many years ago, Catholic girls in some countries also had to fear these kind of honor retributions. I think it probably still goes on in some more backwards countries. Only by constantly protesting and exposing these crimes, does the world bear pressure to create change. And it just shouldn't be tolerated in civilized, western countries.
Yep. Sometimes even after they're married the stigma still sticks... for generations.
My ex's older brother once made a comment to his bride of 3 yrs. They were having a disagreement, and he couldn't back up his side in the argument... so to shut her up, he brought up the fact that when her mother was 15, they caught her wandering around in the field ...by herself They were so freaked out by it, ...they married her off immediately. :o This was in 1960 in Calabria Italy, and 25 years later, and a continent away, ...it was still a source of shame for her family. ::)