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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: XFACTOR on June 05, 2007, 09:59:09 AM
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I could eat and eat and eat and never could I attain a stomach like this. How does he do it? Why would he do it?
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is it not supposed to be from enlarged internal organs?
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is it not supposed to be from enlarged internal organs?
I guess if your intestines started at your sternum then yes.
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I guess if your intestines started at your sternum then yes.
Why does that happen? Is it a certain type of juice or food?
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It calls monster overfedding.
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he spilled over. ::)
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Why does that happen? Is it a certain type of juice or food?
Short term - too much food
Long term - visceral fat
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Short term - too much food
Long term - visceral fat
i thought it was growth
check out DAs gut lately, he even said he over did the growth,
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i thought it was growth
check out DAs gut lately, he even said he over did the growth,
Too much insulin over a long period of time will stimulate visceral fat storage behind the abdominal wall.
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Too much insulin over a long period of time will stimulate visceral fat storage behind the abdominal wall.
Interesting.
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Taking insulin when not diabetic? jesus do these guys have no regard for their health????
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Figure 2a: Visceral fat accumulation, before antiretroviral therapy
Figure 2b: Visceral fat accumulation, four months after initiation of antiretroviral therapy
Just an example of what visceral fat storage looks like. Fat storage was due to medical treament I believe for HIV patient.
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Figure 2a: Visceral fat accumulation, before antiretroviral therapy
Figure 2b: Visceral fat accumulation, four months after initiation of antiretroviral therapy
Just an example of what visceral fat storage looks like. Fat storage was due to medical treament I believe for HIV patient.
So it's from eating too much or drugs? I eat at least 7 good sized meals a day somedays a lot of fat and my stomach could never get that big.
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So it's from eating too much or drugs? I eat at least 7 good sized meals a day somedays a lot of fat and my stomach could never get that big.
Eating large amounts of carbs over the years will produce the same result.
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The Health Risks of Abdominal Fat
Increased visceral fat, which accumulates deep within the abdomen to surround organs like the liver and insulin-generating pancreas, can pose certain dangers to health, especially in those with a body mass index (BMI) above 30 kg/m2. Although men are more likely to be at risk than women of developing certain diseases, both should be aware of the dangers:
Type 2 Diabetes: Studies have shown that adults with large deposits of visceral fat develop lower sensitivity to insulin (insulin resistance). Since these people do not respond to the effects of insulin, which lowers blood sugar levels, they can develop type 2 diabetes.
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The Health Risks of Abdominal Fat
Increased visceral fat, which accumulates deep within the abdomen to surround organs like the liver and insulin-generating pancreas, can pose certain dangers to health, especially in those with a body mass index (BMI) above 30 kg/m2. Although men are more likely to be at risk than women of developing certain diseases, both should be aware of the dangers:
Type 2 Diabetes: Studies have shown that adults with large deposits of visceral fat develop lower sensitivity to insulin (insulin resistance). Since these people do not respond to the effects of insulin, which lowers blood sugar levels, they can develop type 2 diabetes.
Good stuff interesting. So going overboard with the carbs is a big cause.
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excuse me if this sounds very ignorant, but could it be due to abdominal development?
looking at the pic, the size starts from the sternum which also happens to be where the abdominal wall is.
very heavy squats, deadlifts, etc put a shit load of stress on the abdomen and, along with anabolics, i would think that this area would be prone to the same degree of development of any other muscle group.
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is it not supposed to be from enlarged internal organs?
Isnt that just a myth? any evidence?
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excuse me if this sounds very ignorant, but could it be due to abdominal development?
looking at the pic, the size starts from the sternum which also happens to be where the abdominal wall is.
very heavy squats, deadlifts, etc put a shit load of stress on the abdomen and, along with anabolics, i would think that this area would be prone to the same degree of development of any other muscle group.
No, it would have occured years ago, not just within the last 10 to 15 with insulin usage.
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Another example.
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Start taking notes guys. ;D
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thanks for answering my question and the info.
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I could eat and eat and eat and never could I attain a stomach like this. How does he do it? Why would he do it?
HGH/IGF-1 abuse.
PB
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does Derek ANthony have it?
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Start taking notes guys. ;D
Any way to target that fat storage area for loss? Or is it just like trying to spot reduce?
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Short term - too much food
Long term - visceral fat
dont forget in some cases water as well
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dont forget in some cases water as well
Water in the stomach?
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Water in the stomach?
i think he means under the skin, but i don't think that's the issue (distended gut) at all in that pic.
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i think he means under the skin, but i don't think that's the issue (distended gut) at all in that pic.
Of so then you're right it's not an issue.
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Water in the stomach?
come on this is entry level stuff jim :)
The large intestine is responsible for absorption of water and excretion of solid. Sometimes in BB'ers in extreme condition and using of certain compounds can slow this process down and hold excess, hence bloat. Its rare but it does happen, esp if these guess use opiates or nubain which slows digestion and the process even more.
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come on this is entry level stuff jim :)
The large intestine is responsible for absorption of water and excretion of solid. Sometimes in BB'ers in extreme condition and using of certain compounds can slow this process down and hold excess, hence bloat. Its rare but it does happen, esp if these guess use opiates or nubain which slows digestion and the process even more.
no
the mass that is causing the distention is obviously located behind the abdominal wall.
if it was, as you say, bloat from poor digestion/bowel movement the bulge would be in the navel area and it would have a totally different appearance.
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no
the mass that is causing the distention is obviously located behind the abdominal wall.
if it was, as you say, bloat from poor digestion/bowel movement the bulge would be in the navel area and it would have a totally different appearance.
i didnt say him directly, i just threw out another instance that happens. As for location, if its stomach related it would not behind the navel, intestinal would for the most part, you are correct. But you cant lock it down to the area, swelling can be shown all over the area. I have been in such misery before.
Jim is right one with dennis being viseral fat from probably insulin use or igf use...i wasnt saying he was wrong believe me. Guy knows his shit.
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Brilliant graphic, Disgusted!
make a lot of sense now.
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:)
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D...is this really the case?...i mean we have ultra low BFat levels and that would also mean very low storage levels due to the depletion cycle...i wouldve thought that in a very lean specimen bordering on manutrition this area (any area of fat storage) would be very small- and in relative terms be even smaller on the healthy bbuilder who's pancreas works.
your pics show diabetics with reasonable levels of bfat and the graphic is understandable as too is the correlation to diabetics. Do you have any evidence to suggest that normally healthy people that are very low bfat subjects also store extremely high levels of VFat?
im finding it hard to believe that this is the case as my understanding of weight loss is based on the fact that the body will use its existing fat reserves before making any significant reduction in subcutaneous fat levels.
is the organ thing a myth?...is it just bones that grow? ive heard of deformed eyes, enlarged hearts and lungs from hgh and maybe the wives tale of intestines...
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is it not supposed to be from enlarged internal organs?
Yup. From growth hormones.
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I could eat and eat and eat and never could I attain a stomach like this. How does he do it? Why would he do it?
Carb deficit + carb load + insulin = insulin over production = distended gut.
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How do you get rid off it ?
Also the regular non-bb'ers you posted that have it, what do they have to do ?
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OK, I'm confused here!
The initial set of pictures posted by Disgusted are (as he describes) HIV patients whom may have been treated with antiretroviral therapy. What we witness in these pictures is Lipodystrophy, a metabolic syndrome of,as yet, unclear pathogenesis. As you can see from the pictures there is a loss of body fat from the limbs and a build up in the trunk ; so-called centri-petal obesity. I have no argument with what these pictures demonstrate. They have NOTHING to do with Dennis James though!
Dennis James (to my knowledge) is not HIV positive and thus is unlikely to have partaken of antiretroviral therapy. He is none-the-less a professional bodybuilder and as such is highly likely to have partaken in the use (at high levels) of Human Growth Hormone, anabolic steroids and insulin.
The clinical evidence is that Human Growth Hormone will REDUCE visceral fat stores (in fact it is used as treatment in patients such as the ones illustrated). I have yet to see an insulin dependent diabetic develop lipodystrophic signs from insulin usage.
I would be interested to know to what extent insulin plays in the pecontest preparation of professional bodybuilders? Certainly in the offseason with insulin usage there could be some build up fat. To my mind 12-16 weeks of serious dieting coupled with resistance training and cardio will cause significant depletion of bodyfat stores including any visceral fat. Add to this that growth hormone will also reduce the visceral fat level and I struggle to find visceral fat the sole culprit for this distension.
Thus I am unclear on just how much blame can be put on insulin and visceral fat as the culprit for the abdominal distension of some of todays bodybuilders.
Perhaps visceral fat has some role, however surely the use of Human growth hormone and its effects on organomegaly (liver, pancreas, spleen) and muscle hypertrophy (including the smooth muscle of the intestinal wall) HAS to be part of the problem as well?
Just my thoughts (excuse the noob!)
Dave.
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I could eat and eat and eat and never could I attain a stomach like this. How does he do it? Why would he do it?
PLease change title of Post to ... Squadfather...How does one's stomache get this big?
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come on this is entry level stuff jim :)
The large intestine is responsible for absorption of water and excretion of solid. Sometimes in BB'ers in extreme condition and using of certain compounds can slow this process down and hold excess, hence bloat. Its rare but it does happen, esp if these guess use opiates or nubain which slows digestion and the process even more.
Sometimes I ask a question simply to get the people making a claim to think about what it is they are actually asking. ;)
The stomach distention as far as this thread is addressing has nothing to do with water in the intestines and or accumulation of food. Also, you simply said "water in the stomach" No reason not to take you literally. You mentioned nothing of water in the intestines. Not raggin on you bro.
I think at times it is a good idea to use a laxative to get rid of all the food in the intestines especially if a person is constipated, BUT it will not have an effect on the stomach if it is visceral fat that is causing the distention problem. If someone were to use a laxative then they also need to take into consideration the water loss and if they are using diuretics since most laxatives work by bringing water into the intestines.
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D...is this really the case?...i mean we have ultra low BFat levels and that would also mean very low storage levels due to the depletion cycle...i wouldve thought that in a very lean specimen bordering on manutrition this area (any area of fat storage) would be very small- and in relative terms be even smaller on the healthy bbuilder who's pancreas works.
your pics show diabetics with reasonable levels of bfat and the graphic is understandable as too is the correlation to diabetics. Do you have any evidence to suggest that normally healthy people that are very low bfat subjects also store extremely high levels of VFat?
im finding it hard to believe that this is the case as my understanding of weight loss is based on the fact that the body will use its existing fat reserves before making any significant reduction in subcutaneous fat levels.
is the organ thing a myth?...is it just bones that grow? ive heard of deformed eyes, enlarged hearts and lungs from hgh and maybe the wives tale of intestines...
You bring up some excellent points. Let me try and answer all of them.
If is true that visceral fat storage in a person is the FIRST fat that the body will use when dieting to lose fat BUT!!! not in BBers that are using insulin!!! They are screwing with the mechanism that a normal person would be utilizing with a fat loss regime. By using exogenis insulin their bodies are simply being told to hold on to this fat even while dieting for a show.
Now, not only do they take insulin during their mass building phase, but they also are using insulin to carb up for a show. Let's assume that they would stop using it say 12 weeks out. Maybe then they would have some time to lose the visceral fat storage on a normal diet, but the fact that they are using it to carb up on means that they are never giving themsleves a chance to utilize this visceral fat. Add to this the extreme amounts of food that they are consuming in the last days only adds to the distention problem.
And yes for the last time ( I doubt it ;D ) the enlarged organ issue is a myth as much as Sean is a christian. ;)
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OK, I'm confused here!
The initial set of pictures posted by Disgusted are (as he describes) HIV patients whom may have been treated with antiretroviral therapy. What we witness in these pictures is Lipodystrophy, a metabolic syndrome of,as yet, unclear pathogenesis. As you can see from the pictures there is a loss of body fat from the limbs and a build up in the trunk ; so-called centri-petal obesity. I have no argument with what these pictures demonstrate. They have NOTHING to do with Dennis James though!
Dennis James (to my knowledge) is not HIV positive and thus is unlikely to have partaken of antiretroviral therapy. He is none-the-less a professional bodybuilder and as such is highly likely to have partaken in the use (at high levels) of Human Growth Hormone, anabolic steroids and insulin.
You are right, the only thing they do is show is an example if visceral fat storage. I posted those to show the people who may have thought that enlarged organ growth was the cause.
The clinical evidence is that Human Growth Hormone will REDUCE visceral fat stores (in fact it is used as treatment in patients such as the ones illustrated). I have yet to see an insulin dependent diabetic develop lipodystrophic signs from insulin usage.
See above
I would be interested to know to what extent insulin plays in the pecontest preparation of professional bodybuilders? Certainly in the offseason with insulin usage there could be some build up fat. To my mind 12-16 weeks of serious dieting coupled with resistance training and cardio will cause significant depletion of bodyfat stores including any visceral fat. Add to this that growth hormone will also reduce the visceral fat level and I struggle to find visceral fat the sole culprit for this distension.
Thus I am unclear on just how much blame can be put on insulin and visceral fat as the culprit for the abdominal distension of some of todays bodybuilders.
I already addressed this in another post above but to summerize... they never quit using all the up to the day of the show.
Perhaps visceral fat has some role, however surely the use of Human growth hormone and its effects on organomegaly (liver, pancreas, spleen) and muscle hypertrophy (including the smooth muscle of the intestinal wall) HAS to be part of the problem as well?
Proof? Theories?
Just my thoughts (excuse the noob!)
Dave.
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It's called "being overweight". Drop 20 pounds and miraculously the gut disappears. ::)
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How can you selectively maintain "visceral fat" yet be shredded everywhere else?
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How can you selectively maintain "visceral fat" yet be shredded everywhere else?
Don't know if I would call it selective, but I really don't think that anyone knows for sure why. For example, the pics =that I posted of the people who are getting therapy for HIV. They are losing fat in some areas and gaining it viscerally in the stomach.
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does Derek ANthony have it?
yes.
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growing organs
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Too much eating + too much drugs = too much gut ;D
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growing organs
Correct!!
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You bring up some excellent points. Let me try and answer all of them.
If is true that visceral fat storage in a person is the FIRST fat that the body will use when dieting to lose fat BUT!!! not in BBers that are using insulin!!! They are screwing with the mechanism that a normal person would be utilizing with a fat loss regime. By using exogenis insulin their bodies are simply being told to hold on to this fat even while dieting for a show.
Now, not only do they take insulin during their mass building phase, but they also are using insulin to carb up for a show. Let's assume that they would stop using it say 12 weeks out. Maybe then they would have some time to lose the visceral fat storage on a normal diet, but the fact that they are using it to carb up on means that they are never giving themsleves a chance to utilize this visceral fat. Add to this the extreme amounts of food that they are consuming in the last days only adds to the distention problem.
And yes for the last time ( I doubt it ;D ) the enlarged organ issue is a myth as much as Sean is a christian. ;)
So did you convince Shari to lay off the insulin?
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How can you selectively maintain "visceral fat" yet be shredded everywhere else?
Disgusted already answered this. Continuous insulin usage changes the mechanism of fat loss....
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So did you convince Shari to lay off the insulin?
listen to magnum he's going to reverse kalamism...it was around way before Dave P.
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Disgusted already answered this. Continuous insulin usage changes the mechanism of fat loss....
I realize that. I am refering to the distribution of adipose tissue. Is lipolysis selectively impaired in visceral fat only?
I believe Disgusted's 2nd picture on HIV treatment is a not just accumulation of visceral fat, but development of ascities.
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So did you convince Shari to lay off the insulin?
;D
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I realize that. I am refering to the distribution of adipose tissue. Is lipolysis selectively impaired in visceral fat only?
I believe Disgusted's 2nd picture on HIV treatment is a not just accumulation of visceral fat, but development of ascities.
No bro, it was visceral fat that was specifically being talked about and shown on the site that I posted the pic from and I believe it is spelled ascites.
Overview of Ascites
Ascites is a disorder in which there is excessive fluid that accumulates in the abdominal cavity.
Causes of Ascites
Ascites may be caused by cirrhosis, alcoholic hepatitis and obstruction of the hepatic veins. Failure of the kidneys and failure of the heart can both lead to excessive generalized fluid accumulation. Cancer involving the abdominal cavity and tuberculosis involving the abdominal cavity can both produce ascites.
Signs and Symptoms of Ascites
Symptoms of ascites include abdominal swelling. There is generalized abdominal discomfort. Shortness of breath occurs as the diaphragms and lungs are compromised by the expansion of the abdominal fluid.
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i find this all very informative but really gross. I might refer to this thread the next time i feel like binging out of controll
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;D
great job with king....he still has shit genetics, but you're doing the best with what you have to work with.
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Jim, with all due respect bro, I don't think, as a matter of fact I'm about 90% positive that much distension couldn't be caused by visceral fat on a bodybuilder with as low BF as these guys get, I think you would have to take a look at how they look before a carb load phase on how bad the distension was before. Again, I'm convinced that the combination of insulin, carb loading and stimulants all cause insulin sensitivity especially when carbs are low before loading.
If visceral fat was the cause, guys from the 50's through the mid 80's would have had distention since they carried more BF than they do today.
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Jim, with all due respect bro, I don't think, as a matter of fact I'm about 90% positive that much distension couldn't be caused by visceral fat on a bodybuilder with as low BF as these guys get, I think you would have to take a look at how they look before a carb load phase on how bad the distension was before. Again, I'm convinced that the combination of insulin, carb loading and stimulants all cause insulin sensitivity especially when carbs are low before loading.
If visceral fat was the cause, guys from the 50's through the mid 80's would have had distention since they carried more BF than they do today.
I understand what you are saying but consider this. The guys from the 50's 60's 70's and maybe early 80's (not so much) ate tons of protein and fats. Guys today are eating massive amounts of carbs in the form of rice, potatoes and yams, plus the dextrose they use with the insulin.
I have seen guys with huge guts and almost no visible fat on the outside of the stomach who have not used insulin BUT these guys are eating tons of carbs. No stimulants or insulin. Even though they are taking no exogenous insulin they are still over producing insulin via their own pancreas which is the same difference.
You think these guys below are taking insulin, GH, stimulants and IGF? of course not, they are eating tons of carbs and or drinking large amounts of beer and have been for years. They will eventually become type 2 diabetics. These guys have large amounts of visceral fat and because they do not diet like bber's it is even more pronounced, but maybe not as much as you would think. ;D
Years ago I used to have guys carb up on insulin, but these same guys never used it in the off season and I never had anyone with a gut. Most were taking clen and ECA stack and some weren't. Bber's never had a visceral fat problem until they started to use insulin in the off season. I do agree that t he massive amounts of food certainly does not help matters, but trust me when I tell you that it takes months for this type of fat to go away and I am not so sure that it is reversable with everyone. Also consider the fact that once they have had this problem it most likely will return quicker and easier just like with muscle memory.
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all i know is that it cannot be healthy.
just look at some olympia footage from 70, and 80's and then look at post 2000 era.
it doesnt look healthy and impressive like the old school physiques, if it is a result of insulin they should stop using that crap.
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Dennis explained it in the 2002 Battle for the Olympia DVD (http://www.mesomorphosis.com/go/aw.aspx?A=3&Task=Click&TargetURL=http://www.mesomorphosis.com/store/videos/battle-for-the-olympia-2002.html). He basically cited eating as the reason for his stomach and the stomach of other pros.
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/battlefortheolympia2002.html
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like the long time steroid user with the huge gut-wearing-tight-shirt PT with tiny legs says in my gym "ITS FROM ALL THE HEAVY SQUATTING AND DEADLIFTING I DID OVER THE YEARS" ::) oh brother
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Dennis explained it in the 2002 Battle for the Olympia DVD (http://www.mesomorphosis.com/go/aw.aspx?A=3&Task=Click&TargetURL=http://www.mesomorphosis.com/store/videos/battle-for-the-olympia-2002.html). He basically cited eating as the reason for his stomach and the stomach of other pros.
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/battlefortheolympia2002.html
Eating what??? Super bloat fibers or something?
I can't fathom eating such huge amount/volume of anything to cause that much distention... If I need more calories, I do note up the carbs I up the fat and some protein. Sugar (carbs) are fucking dangerous to eat alot of! Especially complex carbs and fibers, they bloat the hell out of you and suck water in to your digestive system along with providing insulin spikes and fat storage. Eat like that for a long time and it will get irreversible! Look at gorillas, they live on veggies their bellies are fukcing huge and bloated LOL... Be smarter than that at least. ::)
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Don't know if I would call it selective, but I really don't think that anyone knows for sure why. For example, the pics =that I posted of the people who are getting therapy for HIV. They are losing fat in some areas and gaining it viscerally in the stomach.
and they do use good amounts of gh in some aids therapy dont they? Makes sense to me
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It must be a combination of the insulin, huge carbs off season, and GH splitting the Abdominal plates apart.
Zane ate protien, did minor steroids and never had a gut like the current guys.
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Don't know if I would call it selective, but I really don't think that anyone knows for sure why. For example, the pics =that I posted of the people who are getting therapy for HIV. They are losing fat in some areas and gaining it viscerally in the stomach.
oh, i thought it was the liver/kidneys expanding and pushing fat forward.
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So thats whats been holding me back visceral fat...I thought it was just a love of Pizza... ;D
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I think it's bullshit. How's a guy with shredded glutes still have a fat stomach?
I think the GH, insulin, or what-have-you is causing the internal tissues to bloat for some reason.
Why don't the guys in the 1960's or 70's have that bloat? Why now?
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I think it's bullshit. How's a guy with shredded glutes still have a fat stomach?
I think the GH, insulin, or what-have-you is causing the internal tissues to bloat for some reason.
Why don't the guys in the 1960's or 70's have that bloat? Why now?
This whole thread is agreeing with you. Guys now rely on carbs and drugs to get big. 60s 70s ate mostly protien and fats. minimal steroids compared to today.
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the whole "Pros eat alot... thats why they look 6 months pregnant with a six pack" is bullshit. Too much carbs???? BULLSHIT. Insulin combined with IGF-1 will create that effect. The intestines have more IGF-1 receptors than anywhere else... and when combined with insulin, those receptors get bombarded with so much IGF-1 that the resulting intestinal growth occurs. IGF-1 and insulin abuse is also why many pros lack the "dry" look of the 80's and early 90's... these guys today can show up shredded to the bone, but still lack the dry, granite-like look... go figure... IGF-1 also thickens the skin with abuse as well...Victor Martinez is a good example of this... although he controls his gut well, during back poses you can clearly see his gut from the side... his conditioning is good enough to win contests today, but back in the 80's and early 90's he would get smoked with conditioning. IGF-1 combined with insulin is to blame.
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This whole thread is agreeing with you. Guys now rely on carbs and drugs to get big. 60s 70s ate mostly protien and fats. minimal steroids compared to today.
Thanks. Guys in the 60s and 70s didnt' have distended stomachs, and still wouldn't have looked pregnant even if they'd have eaten some rice and oatmeal.
There's something else going on.
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This whole thread is agreeing with you. Guys now rely on carbs and drugs to get big. 60s 70s ate mostly protien and fats. minimal steroids compared to today.
i seriously doubt pros from the 60's/70's ate any less carbs than today in general.
the '80's was probably the gretest period for carbs. carbs were very big in the '80's. haney, christian, gaspari, labrada, ray have big guts - hell no.
this has nothing to do with carbs people.
we are seeing split ab walls, etc that only usually occurr in pregnant women.
dj's explanation is absolute garbage.
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i seriously doubt pros from the 60's/70's ate any less carbs than today in general.
the '80's was probably the gretest period for carbs. carbs were very big in the '80's. haney, christian, gaspari, labrada, ray have big guts - hell no.
this has nothing to do with carbs people.
we are seeing split ab walls, etc that only usually occurr in pregnant women.
dj's explanation is absolute garbage.
Agreed. The whole "I eat alot" and "too many carbs" is complete BS. That is what the bodybuilders of today say to cover up their insulin/igf-1 use. Same as, "I just eat alot of protein to look like a frekkin house, but ripped"... riiiiiiiiight. Thats what their supplement companies they are sponsored by tell them to say to drive more business. Nobody will ever look like anyone in the IFBB without drug use... which is why the rest of us are running out buying "nitro-tech" because of these bullshit explainations.
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Eating can never be the cause obviously, these guys have dieted at least 2 months before a show so their stomachs would have shrunken to normal sizes during that caloric restriction period
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the whole "Pros eat alot... thats why they look 6 months pregnant with a six pack" is bullshit. Too much carbs???? BULLSHIT. insulin is to blame.
Yes, Insulin is to blame, but too many carbs isn't bullshit, when your carb deficit for a period of weeks then start adding in 5-600grms per day for 4-6 days before a show, then add the insulin then add stimulants (eca, amphetamines, ect) and along with GH you'll be insulin sensitive thus causing the bloat. What Jim had to say made sense, but I have to look into whether insulin in the offseason would cause that much redistribution of fat to the mid section!
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Yes, Insulin is to blame, but too many carbs isn't bullshit, when your carb deficit for a period of weeks then start adding in 5-600grms per day for 4-6 days before a show, then add the insulin then add stimulants (eca, amphetamines, ect) and along with GH you'll be insulin sensitive thus causing the bloat. What Jim had to say made sense, but I have to look into whether insulin in the offseason would cause that much redistribution of fat to the mid section!
i'm calling bullshit big time here too. Do you really think these guys are developing these guts in 4 - 6 days ??? lay off the pipe NOW!!! >:(
jim is right on the money with this imo. these guys are not coming off the growth and insulin in an effort to play with enough size.
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i'm calling bullshit big time here too. Do you really think these guys are developing these guts in 4 - 6 days ??? lay off the pipe NOW!!! >:(
jim is right on the money with this imo. these guys are not coming off the growth and insulin in an effort to play with enough size.
Dude, stop have carbs for about 4 weeks, then start pounding 600grms of complex carbs for the next 3 days and find out.........better yet, go pound about 12 potatos or yams or rice today and tell me what you would look like after that...........and I didn't say anything about them coming off of the GH/Insulin.
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Dude, stop have carbs for about 4 weeks, then start pounding 600grms of complex carbs for the next 3 days and find out.........better yet, go pound about 12 potatos or yams or rice today and tell me what you would look like after that...........and I didn't say anything about them coming off of the GH/Insulin.
You do have some merit with this, yes...carb loading if done improperly can definitely bloat you... but it happens all over, not just the stomach. It has more to do with the amount of igf-1 receptors lining the intestinal walls, and insulin speeding up the process of over-saturating the receptors translating into intestinal growth. I don't know of any pro that has had igf/insulin guts and have been able to get their distention under control with just watching the carb deficit... they have to go off of insulin/igf-1 in order to that to happen... and pros are not willing to do that because of the size game.
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i'm calling bullshit big time here too. Do you really think these guys are developing these guts in 4 - 6 days ??? lay off the pipe NOW!!! >:(
jim is right on the money with this imo. these guys are not coming off the growth and insulin in an effort to play with enough size.
Who the hell is jim???? ;D
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You do have some merit with this, yes... but it has more to do with the amount of igf-1 receptors lining the intestinal walls, and insulin speeding up the process of over-saturating the receptors translating into intestinal growth. I don't know of any pro that has had igf/insulin guts and have been able to get their distention under control with just watching the carb deficit... they have to go off of insulin/igf-1 in order to that to happen... and pros are not willing to do that because of the size game.
Show me one ounce of proof that these guys intestines are growing.
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Gimme a break disgusted... go ask Pat Arnold...better yet, ask Chad Nicholls or Milos, since their science projects all end up having the same problem. I'm not gonna spell it out for you. You have enough proof without showing you photos of the actual intestines. It goes back to the science of IGF-1 and the ammount of receptors that line the intestinal walls. Do some research, you twit. ;D
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Gimme a break disgusted... go ask Pat Arnold...better yet, ask Chad Nicholls or Milos, since their science projects all end up having the same problem. I'm not gonna spell it out for you. You have enough proof without showing you photos of the actual intestines. It goes back to the science of IGF-1 and the ammount of receptors that line the intestinal walls. Do some research, you twit. ;D
Show me one ounce of proof that these guys intestines are growing.
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Show me one ounce of proof that these guys intestines are growing.
Here ya go, you lazy bastard ;D
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16890611&dopt=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16890611&dopt=Abstract)
Since IGF-1 didn't start to be really abused till the mid 90's, ironically, this is when the guts showed up on the bbing scene. You do the math.
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Here ya go, you lazy bastard ;D
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16890611&dopt=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16890611&dopt=Abstract)
Since IGF-1 didn't start to be really abused till the mid 90's, ironically, this is when the guts showed up on the bbing scene. You do the math.
Did you even read this study? Explain to me why this is proof that bbers intestines are growing???
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Show me one ounce of proof that these guys intestines are growing.
Train and diet very hard until until you can see some basic muscle definition in the arms, legs and abs (much less the glutes). That'll take a few months, depending on where you start. Your stomach will not be swollen unless you just got up from a huge meal.
Once again, it's impossible to have dieted to the extent of having no facial fat and striated glutes, and still have a "fat" stomach.
Whether the intestines are growing or swollen, it's all the same.
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I could eat and eat and eat and never could I attain a stomach like this. How does he do it? Why would he do it?
it is from lack of core work....i'm not talking about crunches....i'm talking about things that strengthen the inner ab muscles, those are what keep a stomach tight
the other reason is because all these fucking pros think they need to where a fucking tight ass lifting belt all the time....i honestly think some of these dipshit wear them while taking a shit....for fuck sake, get a clue
a lot of these people have been brainwashed into thinking a belt makes the waist smaller....absolute bullshit, it is a crutch and when you wear that crutch all the time the midsection cannot support itself on it's own...
ok, slight meltdown i admit, but i am sick of stupid fucking people
in Arnolds day, guys would do almost everything without a belt and NOBODY had distended stomachs
people like chick need to shut the fuck up with their "too many carbs" bullshit
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Whether the intestines are growing or swollen, it's all the same.
That would be a no. ;D
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goddamn disgusted, do I have to spell it out for you? I'll use color this time so you can't miss it...
BACKGROUND & AIMS: Glucagon-like peptide-2 (GLP-2) is an intestinal hormone that acts through unknown pathways to induce intestinal growth. We investigated the role of the insulin-like growth factors (IGF-1 and IGF-2) as mediators of GLP-2-enhanced growth in the murine intestine. METHODS: IGF-1 expression and secretion were determined in GLP-2-responsive primary intestinal cultures treated with GLP-2. Parameters of intestinal growth were assessed in wild-type (CD1, Igf1(+/+) and Igf2+), heterozygous (Igf1(+/-)), and null (Igf1(-/-) and Igf2(-P)) mice treated chronically with saline, GLP-2, IGF-1, or R-Spondin1. RESULTS: GLP-2 increased IGF-1 messenger RNA expression and IGF-1 secretion in intestinal cultures and increased expression of IGF-1 messenger RNA in mouse small intestine in vivo. Igf1(+/+) and Igf2+ mice responded to .1 microg/g(-1) per day(-1) GLP-2 with increased intestinal weights, morphometric parameters, and proliferative indices. In contrast, Igf1(-/-) mice were unresponsive to the same dose of GLP-2, failing to demonstrate changes in intestinal weight, morphometry, or proliferation. However, a significant effect of 1 microg/g(-1) per day(-1) GLP-2 was observed in Igf1(-/-) mice, but only in terms of small intestinal weight when normalized for body weight. Furthermore, Igf2(-P) mice demonstrated a partially impaired response in terms of small intestinal growth. Both Igf1(-/-) and Igf2(-P) mice exhibited normal-enhanced intestinal growth in response to IGF-1 and/or R-Spondin1. CONCLUSIONS: GLP-2 enhances intestinal IGF-1 expression and secretion, and IGF-1 is required for small and large intestinal growth in response to GLP-2. These findings identify IGF-1 as an essential mediator of the intestinotropic actions of GLP-2.
BBers abuse igf-1 and gh to get bigger. IGF-1 and gh enhances intestinal growth. Make the frekkin connection.
Here's another one...
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/cathuman.htm
Or are you gonna argue with Big Cat too? It is a well known fact buddy... do some research.
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Dude, stop have carbs for about 4 weeks, then start pounding 600grms of complex carbs for the next 3 days and find out.........better yet, go pound about 12 potatos or yams or rice today and tell me what you would look like after that...........and I didn't say anything about them coming off of the GH/Insulin.
no way is that explaining dj's gut. i'm sorry, but that's stupid.
if i ate that i would be bloated, yes, but you would not see abs like dj and ronnie, no fucking way does carbs do that, and certainly not in 4 - 6 days, loading or not.
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goddamn disgusted, do I have to spell it out for you? I'll use color this time so you can't miss it...
BACKGROUND & AIMS: Glucagon-like peptide-2 (GLP-2) is an intestinal hormone that acts through unknown pathways to induce intestinal growth. We investigated the role of the insulin-like growth factors (IGF-1 and IGF-2) as mediators of GLP-2-enhanced growth in the murine intestine. METHODS: IGF-1 expression and secretion were determined in GLP-2-responsive primary intestinal cultures treated with GLP-2. Parameters of intestinal growth were assessed in wild-type (CD1, Igf1(+/+) and Igf2+), heterozygous (Igf1(+/-)), and null (Igf1(-/-) and Igf2(-P)) mice treated chronically with saline, GLP-2, IGF-1, or R-Spondin1. RESULTS: GLP-2 increased IGF-1 messenger RNA expression and IGF-1 secretion in intestinal cultures and increased expression of IGF-1 messenger RNA in mouse small intestine in vivo. Igf1(+/+) and Igf2+ mice responded to .1 microg/g(-1) per day(-1) GLP-2 with increased intestinal weights, morphometric parameters, and proliferative indices. In contrast, Igf1(-/-) mice were unresponsive to the same dose of GLP-2, failing to demonstrate changes in intestinal weight, morphometry, or proliferation. However, a significant effect of 1 microg/g(-1) per day(-1) GLP-2 was observed in Igf1(-/-) mice, but only in terms of small intestinal weight when normalized for body weight. Furthermore, Igf2(-P) mice demonstrated a partially impaired response in terms of small intestinal growth. Both Igf1(-/-) and Igf2(-P) mice exhibited normal-enhanced intestinal growth in response to IGF-1 and/or R-Spondin1. CONCLUSIONS: GLP-2 enhances intestinal IGF-1 expression and secretion, and IGF-1 is required for small and large intestinal growth in response to GLP-2. These findings identify IGF-1 as an essential mediator of the intestinotropic actions of GLP-2.
BBers abuse igf-1 and gh to get bigger. IGF-1 and gh enhances intestinal growth. Make the frekkin connection.
Here's another one...
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/cathuman.htm
Or are you gonna argue with Big Cat too? It is a well known fact buddy... do some research.
Good find....I've read a similar study, but don't feel like looking for it ;)
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goddamn disgusted, do I have to spell it out for you? I'll use color this time so you can't miss it...
BACKGROUND & AIMS: Glucagon-like peptide-2 (GLP-2) is an intestinal hormone that acts through unknown pathways to induce intestinal growth. We investigated the role of the insulin-like growth factors (IGF-1 and IGF-2) as mediators of GLP-2-enhanced growth in the murine intestine. METHODS: IGF-1 expression and secretion were determined in GLP-2-responsive primary intestinal cultures treated with GLP-2. Parameters of intestinal growth were assessed in wild-type (CD1, Igf1(+/+) and Igf2+), heterozygous (Igf1(+/-)), and null (Igf1(-/-) and Igf2(-P)) mice treated chronically with saline, GLP-2, IGF-1, or R-Spondin1. RESULTS: GLP-2 increased IGF-1 messenger RNA expression and IGF-1 secretion in intestinal cultures and increased expression of IGF-1 messenger RNA in mouse small intestine in vivo. Igf1(+/+) and Igf2+ mice responded to .1 microg/g(-1) per day(-1) GLP-2 with increased intestinal weights, morphometric parameters, and proliferative indices. In contrast, Igf1(-/-) mice were unresponsive to the same dose of GLP-2, failing to demonstrate changes in intestinal weight, morphometry, or proliferation. However, a significant effect of 1 microg/g(-1) per day(-1) GLP-2 was observed in Igf1(-/-) mice, but only in terms of small intestinal weight when normalized for body weight. Furthermore, Igf2(-P) mice demonstrated a partially impaired response in terms of small intestinal growth. Both Igf1(-/-) and Igf2(-P) mice exhibited normal-enhanced intestinal growth in response to IGF-1 and/or R-Spondin1. CONCLUSIONS: GLP-2 enhances intestinal IGF-1 expression and secretion, and IGF-1 is required for small and large intestinal growth in response to GLP-2. These findings identify IGF-1 as an essential mediator of the intestinotropic actions of GLP-2.
BBers abuse igf-1 and gh to get bigger. IGF-1 and gh enhances intestinal growth. Make the frekkin connection.
Here's another one...
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/cathuman.htm
Or are you gonna argue with Big Cat too? It is a well known fact buddy... do some research.
yep, good work swoody.
Disgusted?
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it is from lack of core work....i'm not talking about crunches....i'm talking about things that strengthen the inner ab muscles, those are what keep a stomach tight
the other reason is because all these fucking pros think they need to where a fucking tight ass lifting belt all the time....i honestly think some of these dipshit wear them while taking a shit....for fuck sake, get a clue
a lot of these people have been brainwashed into thinking a belt makes the waist smaller....absolute bullshit, it is a crutch and when you wear that crutch all the time the midsection cannot support itself on it's own...
ok, slight meltdown i admit, but i am sick of stupid fucking people
in Arnolds day, guys would do almost everything without a belt and NOBODY had distended stomachs
people like chick need to shut the fuck up with their "too many carbs" bullshit
if you actually believe what you are typing then you are borderline retarded.
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if you actually believe what you are typing then you are borderline retarded.
please explain
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please explain
well of course...... the guys back in the day used lifting belts on their major lifts, just watch pumping iron and you will see. To say that bodybuilders of today distention is caused by their belts being too tight is silly. Have you ever seen a natural competitor with a bloated stomach? They lift heavy and use a belt on most of the major exercises. Distention is caused by the abuse of the various hormones that bodybuilders use.
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Here's another one that a retard would understand...
http://www.revitropin.com/about-revitropin.htm (http://www.revitropin.com/about-revitropin.htm)
Here's a highlighted portion to give you a break cause your handicap...
"IGF1 will attach its self to the lining of the intestine and cause atrophy of the gut. Every thing IGF1 touches will grow and you have a lot of receptors on the lining of the large intestine and inner wall of the abdominal well. This is what causes the GH gut look."
You gonna argue with a major pharmaceutical company too, Disgusted?
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well of course...... the guys back in the day used lifting belts on their major lifts, just watch pumping iron and you will see. To say that bodybuilders of today distention is caused by their belts being too tight is silly. Have you ever seen a natural competitor with a bloated stomach? They lift heavy and use a belt on most of the major exercises. Distention is caused by the abuse of the various hormones that bodybuilders use.
read a little closer....i said in Arnolds day they are without belts ON ALMOST EVERYTHING...i am talking about how nowdays they think they need them while doing shit like rear delt flies, give me a fucking break
i didn't say shit about belts being too tight, but that they are worn too much/too often....
i agree with your last statment, the abuse of chemicals
but i also know, if there is one thing lacking in a pros regimine, it is core work
and very few pros can do anything without someone telling them how/when/why they should....hence trainers, nutritionists, etc etc....a sport full of followers
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,,
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,,
all cell tech ;D
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read a little closer....i said in Arnolds day they are without belts ON ALMOST EVERYTHING...i am talking about how nowdays they think they need them while doing shit like rear delt flies, give me a fucking break
i didn't say shit about belts being too tight, but that they are worn too much/too often....
i agree with your last statment, the abuse of chemicals
but i also know, if there is one thing lacking in a pros regimine, it is core work
and very few pros can do anything without someone telling them how/when/why they should....hence trainers, nutritionists, etc etc....a sport full of followers
you are not borderline retarded at all No Patience.
you are beyond retarded.
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you are not borderline retarded at all No Patience.
you are beyond retarded.
if you are saying my comments about inner abs is retarded, than you just gave a great example of your intellegence
i do not disagree with the threads you have posted, rather i add to them with my statements.....there are many issues today from too much of certain things and too little of others
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I agree that pros need to do more core work, but I believe it has little to do with the amount of distented guts we are seeing today. Maybe a little, but not much.
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it has absolutely nothing to do with the distended guts.
to say that pro bbers with distented guts ie ronnie coleman have weak cores is beyond retarded.
are you saying that without that weight belt ronnie would be a weak as a kitten?
come on, think about it please. he would still be lifting ridiculously heavy weights without the belt and y'all know it.
enough with the core garbage.
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no way is that explaining dj's gut. i'm sorry, but that's stupid.
if i ate that i would be bloated, yes, but you would not see abs like dj and ronnie, no fucking way does carbs do that, and certainly not in 4 - 6 days, loading or not.
Yes it would and would see abs clearly, you don't seem to realize that when they start a carb phase, water is limited to very minute quantities to avoid it from spilling over subcutainiously thus having the muscles "fillout" without water retention, the subcutainious water draws back into the muscle, now if they were to drink water along with the carb load, then you would see abs start disappearing, but with that being said, in order to fill out without spilling over, you have to increase water intake about the last 48 hrs or so depending if your on schedule or not.
Of course YOU wouldn't see your abs like Ronnie or DJ because 1 - I'm sure your bodyfat is much higher and 2 - your probably carrying alot more water retention and 3 -You'd probably be drinking liquids while taking in carbs.
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Then how come they have guts year round and aren't able to bring them down without laying off the slin/igf-1 regimen? BBers of the early 90's carb loaded too, yet they didn't have guts like the pros of today... it clearly has much more to do with than just simple mistakes with carb loading before a contest. IGF-1/slin protocols are to blame. Spilling over happens everywhere, with all muscle groups... not just the stomach.
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Then how come they have guts year round and aren't able to bring them down without laying off the slin/igf-1 regimen?
They eat more in the offseason......pretty simple. Besides, I have a feeing they don't lay off for long periods of time, don't forget the offseason is the time to grow. The only one that I can think of in the 80's that even resembled the morons of today was Tim Belknap, but he was truly type 1 diabetic, I mean at 5'4 he barly made the Lt. Hvys when he won the America he came in right at the top of his class.
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Yes it would and would see abs clearly, you don't seem to realize that when they start a carb phase, water is limited to very minute quantities to avoid it from spilling over subcutainiously thus having the muscles "fillout" without water retention, the subcutainious water draws back into the muscle, now if they were to drink water along with the carb load, then you would see abs start disappearing, but with that being said, in order to fill out without spilling over, you have to increase water intake about the last 48 hrs or so depending if your on schedule or not.
Of course YOU wouldn't see your abs like Ronnie or DJ because 1 - I'm sure your bodyfat is much higher and 2 - your probably carrying alot more water retention and 3 -You'd probably be drinking liquids while taking in carbs.
i'm sorry but what your describing has been the standard carb-up procedure (with variations according to body weight) used for decades before distended guts were even mentioned.
as pointed out, it was obvious when someone spilled over, they would smooth out all over. the distended guts we see now are there year round. in fact, worse in the off-season. have a look at ronnie's gut in the ronnie-jay thread.
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They eat more in the offseason......pretty simple. Besides, I have a feeing they don't lay off for long periods of time, don't forget the offseason is the time to grow. The only one that I can think of in the 80's that even resembled the morons of today was Tim Belknap, but he was truly type 1 diabetic, I mean at 5'4 he barly made the Lt. Hvys when he won the America he came in right at the top of his class.
no they don't.
bbers have always bulked up and, in fact, did it moreso in the 60's - 70's and bulking up has always been about eating as much as possible.
if anything they are far more sensible and moderate about their mass building.
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Dennis Jame's gut looks the same regardless if he spills over or not.
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i'm sorry but what your describing has been the standard carb-up procedure (with variations according to body weight) used for decades before distended guts were even mentioned.
as pointed out, it was obvious when someone spilled over, they would smooth out all over. the distended guts we see now are there year round. in fact, worse in the off-season. have a look at ronnie's gut in the ronnie-jay thread.
Well, yes, the basics are almost the same, the difference being is that nowaday the carb phase is longer and a lot more carbs are added to "keep up" with the insulin intake, back then we would only carb for about 2-3 days max starting out with maybe 50-75grms on day one and 75-150 grms on day two and maybe the same before pre-judging on day the day of the show.........not 4-600 grms almost a week out. Oh yeah, almost forgot, we didn't have water until the day of the show and lasix was always handy.
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Good arguement, but it doesn't have a whole lot to stand on as far as real world results go. Dennis James is a classic example of looking insane a few weeks out and then screwing it up come contest time... but in shows that he placed high (NY Pro this year) and shows where he was clearly off and spilling over(Colorado pro) his gut remains the same, and remains distented year round.
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some bbers back in the 70's and 80's would start carb up over a week out and you haven't acknowledged the fact that these bbers are showing these guts year round.
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no they don't.
bbers have always bulked up and, in fact, did it moreso in the 60's - 70's and bulking up has always been about eating as much as possible.
if anything they are far more sensible and moderate about their mass building.
They are more sensible, but they still eat a shit load, and what you don't burn, well you know......
Back in the 60's and 70's they didn't have IGF-1 or insulin for bodybuilding use, but they did of course have steriods, but even with that the doses that were considered alot back then are basically theraputic now, the standard was the same back then as it is now........eat big to get big.
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Good arguement, but it doesn't have a whole lot to stand on as far as real world results go. Dennis James is a classic example of looking insane a few weeks out and then screwing it up come contest time... but in shows that he placed high (NY Pro this year) and shows where he was clearly off and spilling over(Colorado pro) his gut remains the same, and remains distented year round.
Notice how he screws up during the loading phase about 4 days out before the show.
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Here's another one that a retard would understand...
http://www.revitropin.com/about-revitropin.htm (http://www.revitropin.com/about-revitropin.htm)
Here's a highlighted portion to give you a break cause your handicap...
"IGF1 will attach its self to the lining of the intestine and cause atrophy of the gut. Every thing IGF1 touches will grow and you have a lot of receptors on the lining of the large intestine and inner wall of the abdominal well. This is what causes the GH gut look."
You gonna argue with a major pharmaceutical company too, Disgusted?
Ah bro what are you smokin??? First of all this is NOT!! a MAJOR PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY!!. It is a bootleg company selling IGF to bbers.
Secondly, the line that you quoted from them has ZERO references to prove their statement!!!!! They are no more credible than you are. ::)
Now, who's the retard?
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the igf 1, insulin and gh are causing the distention, not food.
bbers today are not eating any more food in the off-season than they always did. if anything bbers are leaner in the off-season today than in the 60's and 70's.
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some bbers back in the 70's and 80's would start carb up over a week out and you haven't acknowledged the fact that these bbers are showing these guts year round.
I competed in the 70's and 80's we more were afraid to smooth out taking in carbs 2-3 days out let alone a week, who told you that?
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the igf 1, insulin and gh are causing the distention, not food.
bbers today are not eating any more food in the off-season than they always did. if anything bbers are leaner in the off-season today than in the 60's and 70's.
Dude, I've been telling you IT'S A COMBINATION!
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I competed in the 70's and 80's we more were afraid to smooth out taking in carbs 2-3 days out let alone a week, who told you that?
what i was told that the bigger you were the longer the duration of carb load, so a 110kg bber might start 8 days out with a small amount of carbs every hour or so.
in any case, if you did smooth out you wouldn't have had a huge pregnant belly with cut up abs. you should know it doesn't work like that.
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Dude, I've been telling you IT'S A COMBINATION!
i was under the impression that you were saying that the distended gut was casued within the 4 - 6 days of carb load with insulin etc seeing as that was what you seemed to be saying a few posts ago.
i'm agreeing with Disgusted that the distended gut is caused by year round use of these drugs combined with over eating.
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Ah bro what are you smokin??? First of all this is NOT!! a MAJOR PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY!!. It is a bootleg company selling IGF to bbers.
Secondly, the line that you quoted from them has ZERO references to prove their statement!!!!! They are no more credible than you are. ::)
Now, who's the retard?
Its sad how you wanna remain an idiot just cause you are to prideful to admit when someone is right. How many links do you want me to put up? 20? I'm sure this "bootleg company" is a little smarter when it comes to the science of bodybuilding than you, moron. Get off your ass and get the references yourself... they are out there... its called GOOGLE. Here's a novel idea... how bout you post a link that proves IGF/Slin combos ARENT to blame?
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Its sad how you wanna remain an idiot just cause you are to prideful to admit when someone is right. How many links do you want me to put up? 20? I'm sure this "bootleg company" is a little smarter when it comes to the science of bodybuilding than you, moron. Get off your ass and get the references yourself... they are out there... its called GOOGLE. Here's a novel idea... how bout you post a link that proves IGF/Slin combos ARENT to blame?
OK bro.
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OK bro.
I'm not disputing that your arguement about insulin causing a distented stomach is wrong... But to say that IGF-1 has no role in the bloated bellies of todays pros is beyond me.
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;D
Good job Jim. You have successfully reversed Kamalism. :)
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Good job Jim. You have successfully reversed Kamalism. :)
Thanks bro. :)
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D..im happy..i'll never suggest the ''O'' word again.
thanks!
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How's this one ;)
Influence of ghrelin on gastric and duodenal growth and expression of digestive enzymes in young mature rats.
Warzecha Z, Dembiński A, Ceranowicz P, Dembiński M, Cieszkowski J, Konturek SJ, Polus A, Pawlik WW, Kuwahara A, Kato I, Konturek PC.
Department of Physiology, Jagiellonian University Medical College, Krakow, Poland. mpdembin@cyf-kr.edu.pl
Ghrelin, a nature ligand for the growth hormone secretagogue receptor (GHS-R), stimulates a release of growth hormone, prolactin and adrenocorticotropic hormone. Also, ghrelin increases food intake in adult rats and humans and exhibits gastroprotective effect against experimental ulcers induced by ethanol or stress. The aim of present study was to examine the influence of ghrelin administration on gastric and duodenal growth and expression of pepsin and enterokinase in young mature rats with intact or removed pituitary. METHODS: Two week after sham operation or hypophysectomy, eight week old Wistar male rats were treated with saline (control) or ghrelin (4, 8 or 16 nmol/kg/dose) i.p. twice a day for 4 days. Expression of pepsin in the stomach and enterokinase in the duodenum was evaluated by real-time PCR. RESULTS: In animals with intact pituitary, treatment with ghrelin increased food intake, body weight gain and serum level of growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1). These effects were accompanied with stimulation of gastric and duodenal growth. It was recognized as the significant increase in gastric and duodenal weight and mucosal DNA synthesis. In both organs, ghrelin administered at the dose of 8 nmol/kg caused maximal growth-promoting effect. In contrast to these growth-promoting effects, administration of ghrelin reduced expression of mRNA for pepsin in the stomach and was without effect on expression of mRNA for enterokinase in the duodenum. Hypophysectomy alone lowered serum concentration of growth hormone under the detection limit and reduced serum level of IGF-1 by 90%. These effects were associated with reduction in daily food intake, body weight gain and gastroduodenal growth. In hypophysectomized rats, administration of ghrelin was without significant effect on food intake, body weight gain or growth of gastroduodenal mucosa. Also, serum concentration of growth hormone or IGF-1 was not affected by ghrelin administration in rats with removed pituitary. CONCLUSION: Administration of ghrelin stimulates gastric and duodenal growth in young mature rats with intact pituitary, but inhibits expression of mRNA for pepsin in the stomach. Growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-1 play an essential role in growth-promoting effects of ghrelin in the stomach and duodenum.
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How's this one ;)
Influence of ghrelin on gastric and duodenal growth and expression of digestive enzymes in young mature rats.
Warzecha Z, Dembiński A, Ceranowicz P, Dembiński M, Cieszkowski J, Konturek SJ, Polus A, Pawlik WW, Kuwahara A, Kato I, Konturek PC.
Department of Physiology, Jagiellonian University Medical College, Krakow, Poland. mpdembin@cyf-kr.edu.pl
Ghrelin, a nature ligand for the growth hormone secretagogue receptor (GHS-R), stimulates a release of growth hormone, prolactin and adrenocorticotropic hormone. Also, ghrelin increases food intake in adult rats and humans and exhibits gastroprotective effect against experimental ulcers induced by ethanol or stress. The aim of present study was to examine the influence of ghrelin administration on gastric and duodenal growth and expression of pepsin and enterokinase in young mature rats with intact or removed pituitary. METHODS: Two week after sham operation or hypophysectomy, eight week old Wistar male rats were treated with saline (control) or ghrelin (4, 8 or 16 nmol/kg/dose) i.p. twice a day for 4 days. Expression of pepsin in the stomach and enterokinase in the duodenum was evaluated by real-time PCR. RESULTS: In animals with intact pituitary, treatment with ghrelin increased food intake, body weight gain and serum level of growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1). These effects were accompanied with stimulation of gastric and duodenal growth. It was recognized as the significant increase in gastric and duodenal weight and mucosal DNA synthesis. In both organs, ghrelin administered at the dose of 8 nmol/kg caused maximal growth-promoting effect. In contrast to these growth-promoting effects, administration of ghrelin reduced expression of mRNA for pepsin in the stomach and was without effect on expression of mRNA for enterokinase in the duodenum. Hypophysectomy alone lowered serum concentration of growth hormone under the detection limit and reduced serum level of IGF-1 by 90%. These effects were associated with reduction in daily food intake, body weight gain and gastroduodenal growth. In hypophysectomized rats, administration of ghrelin was without significant effect on food intake, body weight gain or growth of gastroduodenal mucosa. Also, serum concentration of growth hormone or IGF-1 was not affected by ghrelin administration in rats with removed pituitary. CONCLUSION: Administration of ghrelin stimulates gastric and duodenal growth in young mature rats with intact pituitary, but inhibits expression of mRNA for pepsin in the stomach. Growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-1 play an essential role in growth-promoting effects of ghrelin in the stomach and duodenum.
Someone's been using google... :) Good find
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Someone's been using google... :) Good find
Yeah, there's not a lot out there on this topic, obviously because nobody ever expected "healthy" men to take these amounts of GH in conjuction with AAS AND insulin. But I mean if a little amount of GH WITHOUT these other two compounds can cause GI growth...it should be pretty safe to assume that along with aas and slin, you're going to get some funky stuff goin on down there! ;D
I wish they would to studies using pro bodybuilders....science can learn a lot from these walking chemistry projects! :o
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How's this one ;)
Bro, at the risk of being called a retard ;D the duodenum is only a very small part of the stomach and would have no bearing as to enlargment pertaining to what we are seeing in bbers and their enlarged stomach.
Also, this study uses ghrelin which again does not pertain directly to intestinal growth and if it did still does not prove that exgenous GH, IGF and insulin stimulates enlargement in the intestines.
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Bro, at the risk of being called a retard ;D the duodenum is only a very small part of the stomach and would have no bearing as to enlargment pertaining to what we are seeing in bbers and their enlarged stomach.
Also, this study uses ghrelin which again does not pertain directly to intestinal growth and if it did still does not prove that exgenous GH, IGF and insulin stimulates enlargement in the intestines.
No worries....I'd hate to be called a retard ;D
1. A little anatomy 101...the duodenom is NOT part of the stomach, it's separated by the Pyloric sphincter and is actually the beginning of the SI.
2. Yes, you can be "nit picky" about how there are no EXACT studies concerning "32 yo male taking 16iu Humatrope with 8iu Humalog, 2grams test blah blah blah"...but what these studies show is simply that it's NOT far fetched to see that GH alone DOES in fact affect the size of the GI tract....sadly, there are no studies done to show the effects of GH/Slin/AAS, as it would be illegal to perform such a study, especially on human subjects. :o
Maybe Kamali could volunteer??? ;D
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well put.
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No worries....I'd hate to be called a retard ;D
1. A little anatomy 101...the duodenom is NOT part of the stomach, it's separated by the Pyloric sphincter and is actually the beginning of the SI.
2. Yes, you can be "nit picky" about how there are no EXACT studies concerning "32 yo male taking 16iu Humatrope with 8iu Humalog, 2grams test blah blah blah"...but what these studies show is simply that it's NOT far fetched to see that GH alone DOES in fact affect the size of the GI tract....sadly, there are no studies done to show the effects of GH/Slin/AAS, as it would be illegal to perform such a study, especially on human subjects. :o
Maybe Kamali could volunteer??? ;D
Yes you are correct about the duodenum since we are "nit picking" it is still considered part of the digestive tract.
I fear that we are getting of topic. A lot of people come on here and say that enlarged organs are causing the stomach distension. I am NOT arguing that organs can't enlarge such as the liver, spleen, gall bladder ect although I will put up an argument that the intestines can not enlarge to any great degree.
These studies that you and woodbrain are posting are not relevent at all. First they were done on mice and they give no data as to whether the mice still had function of their organs and if so to what degree. Please correct me if I am wrong on this as I did noting more than scan it. Also, they are using other drugs in their studies to produce these effects that BBers do not take. Even if these tests that you site were valid to our argument did they say whether the intestines grew in length or in thickness. My guess would be thickness and that would be in measured MM. I can tell you this, there is no way that someones intestines will grow in length to any great degree.
As I said before, this distension is due to visceral fat from too much insulin. I had a friend who died of liver cancer and I remember seeing him not too long before he died. his liver was swollen pretty bad. Have you ever seen someone with enlarged organs such as the liver or anything else? I can tell you first hand that it is NOT a symmetrical appearance!! His stomach was bigger on one side than the other due to the fact that each organ that was inflammed was a different size to begin with. Do you follow what I am saying?
These guys stomachs are perfectly symmetrical which indicated that it is NOT due to an enlarged organ. Once organs enlarge they take on a very lumpy appearance. Can you imagine what the intestines would look like if they grow?? Your stomach would look like you had a bunch of snakes in it trying to get out. It would NOT be perfectly symmetrical and it would only be enlarged in the lower abdominal region.
Since you mention King. If his organs were enlarged then how did I manage to shrink his intestines and other organs down to normal size?? Damn, if I could do that I would be a billionaire. As far as I know, I am the only one who has taken someone with this type of problem and corrected it to any great degree. Proof is in the pictures. Not braggin just simply stating fact.
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Yes you are correct about the duodenum since we are "nit picking" it is still considered part of the digestive tract.
I fear that we are getting of topic. A lot of people come on here and say that enlarged organs are causing the stomach distension. I am NOT arguing that organs can't enlarge such as the liver, spleen, gall bladder ect although I will put up an argument that the intestines can not enlarge to any great degree.
These studies that you and woodbrain are posting are not relevent at all. First they were done on mice and they give no data as to whether the mice still had function of their organs and if so to what degree. Please correct me if I am wrong on this as I did noting more than scan it. Also, they are using other drugs in their studies to produce these effects that BBers do not take. Even if these tests that you site were valid to our argument did they say whether the intestines grew in length or in thickness. My guess would be thickness and that would be in measured MM. I can tell you this, there is no way that someones intestines will grow in length to any great degree.
As I said before, this distension is due to visceral fat from too much insulin. I had a friend who died of liver cancer and I remember seeing him not too long before he died. his liver was swollen pretty bad. Have you ever seen someone with enlarged organs such as the liver or anything else? I can tell you first hand that it is NOT a symmetrical appearance!! His stomach was bigger on one side than the other due to the fact that each organ that was inflammed was a different size to begin with. Do you follow what I am saying?
These guys stomachs are perfectly symmetrical which indicated that it is NOT due to an enlarged organ. Once organs enlarge they take on a very lumpy appearance. Can you imagine what the intestines would look like if they grow?? Your stomach would look like you had a bunch of snakes in it trying to get out. It would NOT be perfectly symmetrical and it would only be enlarged in the lower abdominal region.
Since you mention King. If his organs were enlarged then how did I manage to shrink his intestines and other organs down to normal size?? Damn, if I could do that I would be a billionaire. As far as I know, I am the only one who has taken someone with this type of problem and corrected it to any great degree. Proof is in the pictures. Not braggin just simply stating fact.
Good point.
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Bro, at the risk of being called a retard ;D the duodenum is only a very small part of the stomach and would have no bearing as to enlargment pertaining to what we are seeing in bbers and their enlarged stomach.
Also, this study uses ghrelin which again does not pertain directly to intestinal growth and if it did still does not prove that exgenous GH, IGF and insulin stimulates enlargement in the intestines.
Thanks,very good post !
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By the way ,are you trainer "Magnum" of King Kamali ?
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Those GH guts look so good!
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How in the world can anyone go on a pro stage like that? That is just ridiculous. You could look like Ronnie Coleman plus 20 pounds and if your abdominals and gut look like that it wouldn't matter. No reason he should still be competing.
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Im really not sure about the over-eating argument.
Like look at Lee Priest on stage. Any gut? And hes known for really over eating in the off-season.
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Eating large amounts of carbs over the years will produce the same result.
Je$u$ it is good to have you here. I am so glad someone of authority finally explained this. This thread should be stickied so this question doesn't come up again.
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Yes you are correct about the duodenum since we are "nit picking" it is still considered part of the digestive tract.
I fear that we are getting of topic. A lot of people come on here and say that enlarged organs are causing the stomach distension. I am NOT arguing that organs can't enlarge such as the liver, spleen, gall bladder ect although I will put up an argument that the intestines can not enlarge to any great degree.
These studies that you and woodbrain are posting are not relevent at all. First they were done on mice and they give no data as to whether the mice still had function of their organs and if so to what degree. Please correct me if I am wrong on this as I did noting more than scan it. Also, they are using other drugs in their studies to produce these effects that BBers do not take. Even if these tests that you site were valid to our argument did they say whether the intestines grew in length or in thickness. My guess would be thickness and that would be in measured MM. I can tell you this, there is no way that someones intestines will grow in length to any great degree.
As I said before, this distension is due to visceral fat from too much insulin. I had a friend who died of liver cancer and I remember seeing him not too long before he died. his liver was swollen pretty bad. Have you ever seen someone with enlarged organs such as the liver or anything else? I can tell you first hand that it is NOT a symmetrical appearance!! His stomach was bigger on one side than the other due to the fact that each organ that was inflammed was a different size to begin with. Do you follow what I am saying?
These guys stomachs are perfectly symmetrical which indicated that it is NOT due to an enlarged organ. Once organs enlarge they take on a very lumpy appearance. Can you imagine what the intestines would look like if they grow?? Your stomach would look like you had a bunch of snakes in it trying to get out. It would NOT be perfectly symmetrical and it would only be enlarged in the lower abdominal region.
Since you mention King. If his organs were enlarged then how did I manage to shrink his intestines and other organs down to normal size?? Damn, if I could do that I would be a billionaire. As far as I know, I am the only one who has taken someone with this type of problem and corrected it to any great degree. Proof is in the pictures. Not braggin just simply stating fact.
1. Well I love a good debate every now and again...you make some very good points and have a valid argument, plus you did it without calling me a retard, which is always a plus ;D
2. Yes, you performed a miracle on kamali, aside from my personal opinion of him, his waist looked much better, kudos! ;)
3. You're right, we're slightly veering off topic. So please let me turn the tables on you, can you find a study that shows the adverse effects of chronic HGH use that does NOT result in GI growth???
So let me get this straight, you're saying that basically all these guys with big guts like DJ, Ronnie, Jay etc. are fat??? Okay....simple LOGICAL question then....if they're taking cutting drugs like clen, Cytomel, ephedra etc. etc. along with diet and cardio, why are they NOT burning this "visceral" fat???
Your theory?
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Thanks,very good post !
........................ ........................ .........
By the way ,are you trainer "Magnum" of King Kamali ?
Yes. :)
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1. Well I love a good debate every now and again...you make some very good points and have a valid argument, plus you did it without calling me a retard, which is always a plus ;D
2. Yes, you performed a miracle on kamali, aside from my personal opinion of him, his waist looked much better, kudos! ;)
3. You're right, we're slightly veering off topic. So please let me turn the tables on you, can you find a study that shows the adverse effects of chronic HGH use that does NOT result in GI growth???
So let me get this straight, you're saying that basically all these guys with big guts like DJ, Ronnie, Jay etc. are fat??? Okay....simple LOGICAL question then....if they're taking cutting drugs like clen, Cytomel, ephedra etc. etc. along with diet and cardio, why are they NOT burning this "visceral" fat???
Your theory?
Yes, they are fat in terms of having too much visceral fat storage behind the abdominal wall. Most of the drugs that you mention are not used during that off season. When someone (not referring to anyone imparticular) is using say 40 to 80 units a days of insulin then these fat burning drugs will have no effect on visceral fat. I have no idea as to why the viscera lfat is stored in the gut?
As far as studies, you might be better off on studying someone who has acromeglia. I have never heard of someone with it that ever had and major problems with their intestines growing. Its usually the heart that is affected first.
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I think it's some type of fluid buildup due to drugs. But I'm no doctor.
But if we accept its some type of visceral fat tissue that simply doesn't burn off due to insulin or other drug usage, then that's a hell of alot of fat.
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I think it's some type of fluid buildup due to drugs. But I'm no doctor.
But if we accept its some type of visceral fat tissue that simply doesn't burn off due to insulin or other drug usage, then that's a hell of alot of fat.
Actually it would have to be a Hell of a lot of fluid since fat tends to accumulate in small areas and do to it's solid form can stay stationary as opposed to fluid which would most certainly travel to other ares of the body and not just in one small pocket.
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I understand what you are saying but consider this. The guys from the 50's 60's 70's and maybe early 80's (not so much) ate tons of protein and fats. Guys today are eating massive amounts of carbs in the form of rice, potatoes and yams, plus the dextrose they use with the insulin.
I have seen guys with huge guts and almost no visible fat on the outside of the stomach who have not used insulin BUT these guys are eating tons of carbs. No stimulants or insulin. Even though they are taking no exogenous insulin they are still over producing insulin via their own pancreas which is the same difference.
You think these guys below are taking insulin, GH, stimulants and IGF? of course not, they are eating tons of carbs and or drinking large amounts of beer and have been for years. They will eventually become type 2 diabetics. These guys have large amounts of visceral fat and because they do not diet like bber's it is even more pronounced, but maybe not as much as you would think. ;D
Years ago I used to have guys carb up on insulin, but these same guys never used it in the off season and I never had anyone with a gut. Most were taking clen and ECA stack and some weren't. Bber's never had a visceral fat problem until they started to use insulin in the off season. I do agree that t he massive amounts of food certainly does not help matters, but trust me when I tell you that it takes months for this type of fat to go away and I am not so sure that it is reversable with everyone. Also consider the fact that once they have had this problem it most likely will return quicker and easier just like with muscle memory.
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i dont agree with the...high carb diets causing big stomachs. Yeah. alot of BBs in the 50 60 70 and 80s ate high protein and fats, but ALOT of the champs in the Aronld and Haney era ate TONS of carbs...and there were no distended guts.
And what about pro athletes in other sports such as cycling running tennis swimming and even basketball. They are trained and taught to eat a crap load of CARBS and none of them have Visicular Protruding Diabetic Stomachs.
Carbs ONLY is not to blame....it's the Insulin with the carbs.
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How about starving children in third world countries with bloated stomachs? No fat...
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does Derek ANthony have it?
:-X
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How about starving children in third world countries with bloated stomachs? No fat...
Nutrient deficiency.
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Fine. So we can both agree that when one's stomach protrudes, it may be from something other than "visceral fat."
That's a starting place. The lack of food and nutrition is the cause. Now, WHAT is actually taking place to produce the noticeable protrusion?
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It's just visceral water retention - not fat - not organ growth - just water retention - that's my 2 cents.....
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Fine. So we can both agree that when one's stomach protrudes, it may be from something other than "visceral fat."
That's a starting place. The lack of food and nutrition is the cause. Now, WHAT is actually taking place to produce the noticeable protrusion?
OF course it could be something else. I also could be a tumaah. ;D
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Well, you avoided the issue. Something makes the stomach protrude. What physical compounds push against the walls of the stomach?
Another example: My uncle was a veterinarian, and needed to drain an old dog's stomach with a syringe every few months or so. I'd seen it done. I don't know why it occured - but fluid would build up in the stomach (not fat).
My point: There is more than one theory, and unless a doctor has evidence, we're just guessing.
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Well, you avoided the issue. Something makes the stomach protrude. What physical compounds push against the walls of the stomach?
Another example: My uncle was a veterinarian, and needed to drain an old dog's stomach with a syringe every few months or so. I'd seen it done. I don't know why it occured - but fluid would build up in the stomach (not fat).
My point: There is more than one theory, and unless a doctor has evidence, we're just guessing.
Yep, I'm avoiding the issue. ::)
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A starving person's stomach protrudes, yet there's no food or fat.
A bodybuilder with no fat whatsoever (even facial cheeks and glutes) has a protruding stomach.
I'm just pointing out that it's not a simple matter.
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A starving person's stomach protrudes, yet there's no food or fat.
Why can't you do your own research on this bro?
A bodybuilder with no fat whatsoever (even facial cheeks and glutes) has a protruding stomach.
I have already answered this many many times! Read this thread!!!
I'm just pointing out that it's not a simple matter.
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A starving person's stomach protrudes, yet there's no food or fat.
A bodybuilder with no fat whatsoever (even facial cheeks and glutes) has a protruding stomach.
I'm just pointing out that it's not a simple matter.
Bro, they're completely different. A starving person having a large gut is either due to a lack of protein, Kwashiorkor, or due to a total lack of food/nutrients...marasmus.
The cause of these is the lack of proteins in the system, which means no "oncotic" pressure, so the fluid diffuses out into the peritoneum....ascites.
PLUS, these guys have huge guts year round...not just for the show. :o
Nothing like shredded abs...that hang over the trunks ;D
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Bro, they're completely different. A starving person having a large gut is either due to a lack of protein, Kwashiorkor, or due to a total lack of food/nutrients...marasmus.
The cause of these is the lack of proteins in the system, which means no "oncotic" pressure, so the fluid diffuses out into the peritoneum....ascites.
PLUS, these guys have huge guts year round...not just for the show. :o
Nothing like shredded abs...that hang over the trunks ;D
Yes, I know they are completely different examples. My point was that fluid CAN be the culprit to cause a protrusion.
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A starving person's stomach protrudes, yet there's no food or fat.
A bodybuilder with no fat whatsoever (even facial cheeks and glutes) has a protruding stomach.
I'm just pointing out that it's not a simple matter.
That's from parasites and yes, a starving person does have fat, visceral and other wise...it's muscle they lose along with the inability to make anti bodies because of the lack of protein and nutrition.....disease and inability to fight it kills a starving person in a third world country.
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The huge guts is a side effect of large amounts of cortisol in the system along with adding torso size and losing limb size, these are common side effects of people with elevated levels of cortisol, basically its palumboism from taking too many steroids that your body can no longer control its cortisol levels, this is a fact, and that is why most guys start going backwards later in their carrears, Mrakus Ruhl King Kamalki, Nasser in his late shows.
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The huge guts is a side effect of large amounts of cortisol in the system along with adding torso size and losing limb size, these are common side effects of people with elevated levels of cortisol, basically its palumboism from taking too many steroids that your body can no longer control its cortisol levels, this is a fact, and that is why most guys start going backwards later in their carrears, Mrakus Ruhl King Kamalki, Nasser in his late shows.
mate, seriously, i doubt cortisol is the culprit. these guys have tons of muscle that would indicate that catabolic hormones like cortisol are largely being blocked.
muscle wasting is not the issue with these guys, that should be obvious. they are not losing 'limb size' either (by that i'm assuming/hope you mean circumference). they may look somewhat smaller because of the torso mass. get a pic of sergio oliva and photoshop it to appear like he has a 40" waist and you'll get the picture.
ruhl's losing size ??? are you out of your fucking mind? geez, only on getbig would you read something like that. ::)
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The huge guts is a side effect of large amounts of cortisol in the system along with adding torso size and losing limb size, these are common side effects of people with elevated levels of cortisol, basically its palumboism from taking too many steroids that your body can no longer control its cortisol levels, this is a fact, and that is why most guys start going backwards later in their carrears, Mrakus Ruhl King Kamalki, Nasser in his late shows.
You need to do a little more research on Cushings Disease.
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Forgive me if you went over it already disgusted, but what causes the thickening of the obliques? I understand what you mean by the visceral fat causing the protruding bellies. but waht about the obliques?
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Forgive me if you went over it already disgusted, but what causes the thickening of the obliques? I understand what you mean by the visceral fat causing the protruding bellies. but waht about the obliques?
What causes thickening of any other skeletal muscle in the body? that's right, training and lots of it and heavy work. All these things along with high hormone levels and lots of good eating can make any muscle, not just the obliques larger. many athletes have thick obliques just from the type of compound work they do...they heavy twisting exercises for trunk mobility and strength...alll these things add up.
The distention is caused by insulin and igf, generally....Gh in low amounts will not cause much in the way of enlargement of the gut and abdomin....in abuseive levels yes it can. primaraly it is caused by lots of insulin and igf, however.
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What causes thickening of any other skeletal muscle in the body? that's right, training and lots of it and heavy work. All these things along with high hormone levels and lots of good eating can make any muscle, not just the obliques larger. many athletes have thick obliques just from the type of compound work they do...they heavy twisting exercises for trunk mobility and strength...alll these things add up.
The distention is caused by insulin and igf, generally....Gh in low amounts will not cause much in the way of enlargement of the gut and abdomin....in abuseive levels yes it can. primaraly it is caused by lots of insulin and igf, however.
There is some truth to waht you are saying but its not exactly what I meant. Look at somebody like polumbo, his very thick obliques along with the belly is what makes it look worse. Kinda like a one two punch ;D