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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: The Squadfather on April 03, 2008, 07:56:48 AM
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you may think you're getting bigger because you're more energetic in the gym but it's making you skinnier and weaker, discuss. ;D
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ephedrine always made me weak as a kitten. i'd be all buzzed and shit, but had no actual energy.
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What you recommend? Lipo 6?
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you may think you're getting bigger because you're more energetic in the gym but it's making you skinnier and weaker, discuss. ;D
not at a dose of 25 mg, and not when you have carbs+protein+fat in your bloodstream as you sip bcaas and you dont move around in between sets..
:)
but 400mg of it before you go out dancing..lol..yup thats muscle wasting for sure
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What you recommend? Lipo 6?
training and A LOT of food. :D
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I hate ephedrine
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hahahhaa, i love seeing all the 178 pound Tap Out monsters on 100mg. of ephedrine in the gym, eyes bugged out all geeked up flat pressing a massive pair of 70's for 5 shaky reps and then tossing them on the floor like total BEASTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
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I love ECA. I think I've tried it 3 times now in the last 5 years. Each time it was the same... I had veins shooting out and abs shining thru in just a few days. And I felt awesome at first. The energy was great.
Then I got the heart pitter patters, I got pissy, and then I got sick - flu or cold each time. I don't know how it beats up on the immune system, but it sure did for me. Plus when I got off it, my nose got hella stuffy, as I was enjoying the nice sinus=clearing it provides.
it's great stuff, I just can't take it.
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all you need is a positive attitude
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I love ECA. I think I've tried it 3 times now in the last 5 years. Each time it was the same... I had veins shooting out and abs shining thru in just a few days. And I felt awesome at first. The energy was great.
Then I got the heart pitter patters, I got pissy, and then I got sick - flu or cold each time. I don't know how it beats up on the immune system, but it sure did for me. Plus when I got off it, my nose got hella stuffy, as I was enjoying the nice sinus=clearing it provides.
it's great stuff, I just can't take it.
oh offcourse you had veins popping out. ::)
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Ephedrine is for who is too much lazy to go through a strict diet!! ;) Considering the advantages and disavantages of ephedrine use, I would prefer to get some winny instead!
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oh offcourse you had veins popping out. ::)
I never had veins in my life in my arms til I took ECA. In a week I had them showing. honest.
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GH is the best fat burner
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training and A LOT of food. :D
Is this the formula that you used to achieve your legendary look?
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avoiding the new Edy's Reeses Peanut Butter Cup Ice Cream helps me burn fat. ;D
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Is this the formula that you used to achieve your legendary look?
post a picture up looking better Mr. Skinny/Fat.
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I love ECA. I think I've tried it 3 times now in the last 5 years. Each time it was the same... I had veins shooting out and abs shining thru in just a few days.
um. how much weight are you saying you lost in a few days? i mean, you'd have to be so close to veins/abs that dropping 3 pounds of water was enough.
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post a picture up looking better Mr. Skinny/Fat.
Look I'm asking for advice because I can't match your rotund girth. I'm cursed with pronounced V-taper, but I'd like to know you secrets to achieving the ellusive O-Frame.
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um. how much weight are you saying you lost in a few days? i mean, you'd have to be so close to veins/abs that dropping 3 pounds of water was enough.
8 pounds in 7 days probably. it was quite catabolic for me.
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Look I'm asking for advice because I can't match your rotund girth. I'm cursed with pronounced V-taper, but I'd like to know you secrets to achieving the ellusive O-Frame.
hahahahhaaa, like i said post the picture showing this incredible "V taper" and i'd be happy to oblige because the picture i've seen of you shows a skinny bottom twink without any cuts or veins in sight.
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Look I'm asking for advice because I can't match your rotund girth. I'm cursed with pronounced V-taper, but I'd like to know you secrets to achieving the ellusive O-Frame.
LMAO.
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Look I'm asking for advice because I can't match your rotund girth. I'm cursed with pronounced V-taper, but I'd like to know you secrets to achieving the ellusive O-Frame.
to have a V-taper, you shoulder needs a minimum of width
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hahahahhaaa, like i said post the picture showing this incredible "V taper" and i'd be happy to oblige because the picture i've seen of you shows a skinny bottom twink without any cuts or veins in sight.
I'd be happy to repost it, in fact send me a clear pic of yourself and I will put together a comparison shot. This way people can see the great gains to be made by following your dietary recommendations.
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I'd be happy to repost it, in fact send me a clear pic of yourself and I will put together a comparison shot. This way people can see the great gains to be made by following your dietary recommendations.
never claimed to be anything special, here's mine sissy, now post yours. :D
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haha we would not even see ShiftedShape if Dave was in front of him
Dave is a tank, plain and simple 8)
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never claimed to be anything special, here's mine sissy, now post yours. :D
I'm affraid those won't suffice. We need pics that clearly show your massive midsection. You might want to try taking the pics using a mirror or having somebody else hold the camera.
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I never had veins in my life in my arms til I took ECA. In a week I had them showing. honest.
Hi Jay Cutler. ;D
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It does work when combined with a lower carb diet. Ephedrine makes you feel like you are on speed and you feel full of life. However, the effects only last 3-4 hrs tops so it has to taken throughout the day...another minus. The jitters are pronounced and it gets old in about a week for me and I'm ready to get off of it. Also, sleep patterns are SOMETIMES disrupted. Strength in the gym goes up but only 5-10lbs on compound movements for me.
A better alternative is clen with 30 min cardio 4 times a week right after weight training (if you are on something to keep your muscle like roids of course :)). Same if not better fat burning and NO jitters and once a day dosing. About the same price too and sleep patterns are less likely to be disturbed. Hell, I've taken it and gone to bed no problems. That wouldn't work with ECA.
I guess what I am getting at is clen can be taken for long periods of time and I can stand it whereas ECA is hard to stay on for more than 2 weeks tops.
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It does work when combined with a lower carb diet. Ephedrine makes you feel like you are on speed and you feel full of life. However, the effects only last 3-4 hrs tops so it has to taken throughout the day...another minus. The jitters are pronounced and it gets old in about a week for me and I'm ready to get off of it. Also, sleep patterns are SOMETIMES disrupted. Strength in the gym goes up but only 5-10lbs on compound movements for me.
A better alternative is clen with 30 min cardio 4 times a week right after weight training (if you are on something to keep your muscle like roids of course :)). Same if not better fat burning and NO jitters and once a day dosing. About the same price too and sleep patterns are less likely to be disturbed. Hell, I've taken it and gone to bed no problems. That wouldn't work with ECA.
I guess what I am getting at is clen can be taken for long periods of time and I can stand it whereas ECA is hard to stay on for more than 2 weeks tops.
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you may think you're getting bigger because you're more energetic in the gym but it's making you skinnier and weaker, discuss. ;D
Ephederine or ECA is a good fat burner and even that maybe an questionable.........but thats about it. As with anything that effects the CNS ie; "Fat Burners" , caffine, sugar ect, ect, it gives a false sense of energy and actually does more harm than good. For the last 6-8 weeks I've been doing ALOT of research on the way this effects almost all of the endocrine system and training and overall health. Lets just say it relates to the 'crash' you have when you come down. But the "crash" maybe the least of worries.
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clenbuterol is not a strong a fat burner as ephedrine. it does last longer, which makes it useful because you get your beta receptors agonized while you sleep... soemthing ephedrine cant do(you cant fall asleep on it), but as far as overall potency, ephedrine KILLS clen. cclen is specific to beta-2, imagine a sniper rifle .. while ephedrine hits beta 1, 2, 3..imgaine a shotgun
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clenbuterol is not a strong a fat burner as ephedrine.
Wtf?! Even I know Clen is way stronger the ephedrine..
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hahahhaa, i love seeing all the 178 pound Tap Out monsters on 100mg. of ephedrine in the gym, eyes bugged out all geeked up flat pressing a massive pair of 70's for 5 shaky reps and then tossing them on the floor like total BEASTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
damn your gym sucks
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It does work when combined with a lower carb diet. Ephedrine makes you feel like you are on speed and you feel full of life. However, the effects only last 3-4 hrs tops so it has to taken throughout the day...another minus. The jitters are pronounced and it gets old in about a week for me and I'm ready to get off of it. Also, sleep patterns are SOMETIMES disrupted. Strength in the gym goes up but only 5-10lbs on compound movements for me.
A better alternative is clen with 30 min cardio 4 times a week right after weight training (if you are on something to keep your muscle like roids of course :)). Same if not better fat burning and NO jitters and once a day dosing. About the same price too and sleep patterns are less likely to be disturbed. Hell, I've taken it and gone to bed no problems. That wouldn't work with ECA.
I guess what I am getting at is clen can be taken for long periods of time and I can stand it whereas ECA is hard to stay on for more than 2 weeks tops.
I agree ECA is hard to deal with but way better then Clen
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Wtf?! Even I know Clen is way stronger the ephedrine..
Nothing is as strong as ephidrine, only thing is you have to keep upping the dosage because your body gets used to it.
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ephedrine always made me weak as a kitten. i'd be all buzzed and shit, but had no actual energy.
Ditto, not good pre work out for me.
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where are you all getting you ephedrine from?
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Nothing is as strong as ephidrine, only thing is you have to keep upping the dosage because your body gets used to it.
yeah this is true. BUT its true of almost all supps. AND ephdrine actually holds its effectiveness better than clen does.
i think running both clen and ephedrine is best though. just take your bendaryl every couple of weeks for a few days
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you may think you're getting bigger because you're more energetic in the gym but it's making you skinnier and weaker, discuss. ;D
As long as I'm not a fat pos like you. ;D
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hahahhaa, i love seeing all the 178 pound Tap Out monsters on 100mg. of ephedrine in the gym, eyes bugged out all geeked up flat pressing a massive pair of 70's for 5 shaky reps and then tossing them on the floor like total BEASTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
100mg's? man...my heart hurts just thinking of that. Why would you take that much?
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never claimed to be anything special, here's mine sissy, now post yours. :D
He said a clear pic guy.
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haha we would not even see ShiftedShape if Dave was in front of him
Dave is a tank, plain and simple 8)
Are you a chubby-chaser?
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yeah this is true. BUT its true of almost all supps. AND ephdrine actually holds its effectiveness better than clen does.
i think running both clen and ephedrine is best though. just take your bendaryl every couple of weeks for a few days
Not exactly a healthy & safe idea if you value your health.
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Squad, I think you might need to start takin some ephedrine.
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ephedrine is a good way to get leg cramps when training extra hard, much better off with instant black coffee for energy without the cramps
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100mg's? man...my heart hurts just thinking of that. Why would you take that much?
same here. isn't the maximum safe dosage 75mg?
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same here. isn't the maximum safe dosage 75mg?
Lol im shocked.
Americans known for all their roid abuse.
And you complain about 75mg of ephedrine? ;D
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where are you all getting you ephedrine from?
Walgreens and CVS.
it's sold under the name Bronkaid for asthma. In FL, they make you fill out a paper when you buy so they can track people who buy dozens of boxes and make meth. It's prefectly legal if you have asthma symptoms of course.
you can buy it online - a quick google search gave me this, no clue if they're reputable
http://www.ephedra-pills.info/bronkaid.html
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Ephederine or ECA is a good fat burner and even that maybe an questionable.........but thats about it. As with anything that effects the CNS ie; "Fat Burners" , caffine, sugar ect, ect, it gives a false sense of energy and actually does more harm than good. For the last 6-8 weeks I've been doing ALOT of research on the way this effects almost all of the endocrine system and training and overall health. Lets just say it relates to the 'crash' you have when you come down. But the "crash" maybe the least of worries.
Please elaborate how it messes with your health. I hope you're not talking about adrenal fatigue or burnout.
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Nothing is as strong as ephidrine, only thing is you have to keep upping the dosage because your body gets used to it.
You don't have to increase the dosage if you're after the fat loss, thermogenic and anorectic effects. In fact, ephedrine works better the longer you take it (at least up to a year).
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Walgreens and CVS.
it's sold under the name Bronkaid for asthma. In FL, they make you fill out a paper when you buy so they can track people who buy dozens of boxes and make meth. It's prefectly legal if you have asthma symptoms of course.
you can buy it online - a quick google search gave me this, no clue if they're reputable
http://www.ephedra-pills.info/bronkaid.html
you have to sign a register in michigan now. I have asthma and I took some bronkaid this winter while I had a bit of a cough, it cleared up pretty quick...
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I loved it when I used it. As long as my diet was clean, I never felt weak.
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i agree with the previous posters.
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i couldn't stand that shit :( oh well, guess hydrocut hardcore will have to do as my daily pick-me-upper. ;D
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Please elaborate how it messes with your health. I hope you're not talking about adrenal fatigue or burnout.
Here's a great post by Ryno (not THAT Ryno aka Jack London....this one is actually SMART!) on Muscle Mayhem:
There is quite a bit of techie-talk in here, but I thought is necessary to get my point across. These are very complex drugs, clen especially, so this is just a sort of quick overview of there mechanism of action and how they should be used, in my humble opinion of course.
Clenbuterol and ephedrine are agonists (activator) of adrenergic receptors, specifically the beta adrenergic receptor, which are widely distributed throughout the body. There are three known subtypes of the beta receptor; 1,2, and 3. Beta1 stimulation results in increased heart rate, increased cardiac contractility, and increased lipolysis. Beta2 increases muscle and liver glycogenolysis, increase glucagon (opposite of insulin) increase blood glucose, and major vascular dilation/relaxation. Beta2 also mediates clenbuterol stimulated anabolic effects in muscle, but that is another VERY complicated issue. Beta3, so far only isolated in adipocytes (fat cells), increases lipolysis. Clenbuterol is very specific for beta2, while ephedrine is relatively non selective, and therefore a better lipolytic agent. While caffeine is a totally different class of compound, a methylxanthine, it still has potent affects on the CNS. It works not via adrenergic receptors, but it has heavy influence of calcium and cAMP levels within cells, which is very significant, especially with regards to smooth muscle, like that in blood vessels and intestines. The reason why caffeine is so often combined with ephedrine is most preparations is that the increased intracellular calcium, and uncoupling of calcium with membrane hyperpolarization, is synergistic with the neurotropic effects of ephedrine. The result is a much stronger thermogenic and neurotransmission effect.
The jitteryness, increased heartrate,and increased bloodpressure (regardless of the vasodilatory effects) from clen and ephedrine result from their stimulation of receptor in the sympathetic neurons. The anabolic properties of clen are EXTREMELY interesting, occuring from an entirely different mechanism than androgens. Whatever fat loss benefit this drug offers is far less than ephedrine or other beta1+beta3 specific compounds.
As far as practical use is concerned, there are obviously many variations. The problem is that the beta adrenergic receptors quickly adapt to stimulation by densensitization and downregulation. Desensitization occurs very rapidly via lowered expression of adenylate cyclase and cAMP within the cell. This is unexcapable, even with regards to the beta3, only present in fat. Downregulation has only been shown to occur primarily with expression of receptor mRNAs. The actual receptor population has not been shown to decrease, although it would certainly happen over time. I just don't think the turnover rate is fast enough for it to be a problem in short cycles. Densenstization is the problem, and this occurs very rapidly. There are no human studies looking at this phenomenon (primarily because extended studies would be required with constant stimulation and such would be extremely hazardous, and hence would not get NIH approval), but my guess is that significant desensitization will occur anywhere from 1-4 weeks. Not very specific, but I have no hard data to support that, only hearsay.
For fatloss, the best protocol, IMO, would be 1 weekon/1 off. At least that way there will be little desensitization, and the sympathetic nervous system will not be in constant fight or flight. THat is assuming that one doesn't use ECA during the off weeks. That would be the worst thing to do. You must have periods of complete cessation of ECA, clen, and ehem, CAFFEINE, if you want to recover properly. Ephedrine and caffeine both have halflife of 3-7 hours, while clenbuterol is considerably longer, 10-12 if I rememeber correctly. Using caffeine during ones off period of clen/ECA will not affect the adrenergic receptors, but is will lead to problems with neuronal desensitization. My advice, when not using clen or ECA, don't use any form of CNS stimulant. Simply upping the dosage will not serve any purpose as the receptors have been maximally stimulated and the intracellular machinery has been in effect shut off. A total break from use is required. However, as long as the desensitization is reversed periodically there should not be a reduction in effectiveness of these compounds over the long term. Clen especiall could be used post androgen use if so desired as a way to circumvent the loss of muscle that will inevitably occur after steroid cycles. Clens neurotropic and myotropic effects could be of great use, but I still recommend coming off everything when stopping androgen use.
Since ever individual seems to have a variable tolerance for clen, I would suggest starting at 50 mcg day for men, and 25mcg day for women. If you feel okay up the dose slowly in 20mcg increments every 2-3 days. You will most likely be jittery, but you should not feel sick on excessively trembly. Increase the dose to that point, and hold it there. THere next on period can begin at that dose. THere is no need to pyramid up or down once you know your maximal tolerable and effective dose. Ephedrine should be used in same manner. Find the set point and stick with that dose. By all means though, step up gradually if you have never used these compounds before. They are not like androgens in that an accute excessive dose can kill you. IMO, they are the most deadly of the commonly used bodybuilding drugs, except for diuretics.
Now, while neither ephedrine, nor any of the other beta agonists, have any noticeable anabolic effects, clenbuterol does. It does stimulate muscle-specific protein anabolism that is in part due to beta-2 adrenergic receptor agonism. Rats that have the beta2 receptor knocked out do not show any of the anabolic or innervation effects of clen. So the beta2 receptor is required, but probably not sufficient, since other beta agonists do not have clens anabolic effects.
Clenbuterol is able to produce effects similar to innervation in muscle fibers that have been denervated. It effects expression of neurotropic (compounds normally stimulated or released by neurons) compounds such as IGF-II and an entire host of other signaling proteins, and greatly inhances local muscle expression of IGF-1 and the various binding proteins involved. It is used clinically in patients with neuronal damage, which is normally associated with extreme muscle wasting. The innervation effects are totally unique to clen, as far as I know. This innervation is the most important feature of clen anabolism. It would in effect make ones muscles much more effecient. This is readily apparent as the rapid increases in strength seen with initiation of clen usage. It could potential be dangerous however. Depending on the severity, the increase in muscle contractility combined with greater motor unit activation could override the inherent protective effects the muscle has in place and injuries could result. This is only for very extreme cases, but still worth mentioning. THe more and more I look into clen, the more and more I think it has the potential to be very useful for bodybuilders and other strength athletes.
Another very interesting and unique effect it that when clen is combined with triodothyronine (T3), there is a change of phenotype of slow twitch muscle fibers to fast twitch. This could have major implications to bodybuilders, since the fast twitch fibers have a much greater capacity for growth. The activity of several ribosomal proteins involved in protein synthesis is also heavily increased. How important this is to muscle hypertrophy I don't know. The studies I have seen are all in rats however, and they do not say the dosing used, so I can't say what doses caused these effects. THat being said, rats physiology and metabolism is highly analogus to humans, so the data seen with rat studies is probably applicable to humans.
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not at a dose of 25 mg, and not when you have carbs+protein+fat in your bloodstream as you sip bcaas and you dont move around in between sets..
:)
but 400mg of it before you go out dancing..lol..yup thats muscle wasting for sure
can you brush your teeth while taking ephedrine? ::)
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VanBilderass, yes that is mostly what I'm referring too. Over the last couple of months I've been working with an endo on this as well as other things that relate to this and its connection.
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i couldn't stand that shit :( oh well, guess hydrocut hardcore will have to do as my daily pick-me-upper. ;D
you can buy a bottle of a hundred 200mg caffiene tabs for 7 bucks and save the other 63 and get the same effects of that hydroxycut, bro
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Ephederine or ECA is a good fat burner and even that maybe an questionable.........but thats about it. As with anything that effects the CNS ie; "Fat Burners" , caffine, sugar ect, ect, it gives a false sense of energy and actually does more harm than good. For the last 6-8 weeks I've been doing ALOT of research on the way this effects almost all of the endocrine system and training and overall health. Lets just say it relates to the 'crash' you have when you come down. But the "crash" maybe the least of worries.
How exactly does Ephedrine exert its effects on the CNS, independent from the PNS? Since you avoided my questions on the pharmacology of insulin, I'm assuming you'll be too proud to do the same with this.
I'd specifically like you to address this "false sense of energy." I felt pretty secure in my understanding of Beta receptor agonism, but your insight on the falsity of its "sense of energy" has me quite intrigued!
If this "crash" you're speaking of in your "research" has a specific psychoactive action, I'd love to hear about it! Are you speaking of adrenal fatigue?
I'm certain that your research into catecholamine activation takes into consideration the activation of central catecholamine levels in relation to peripheral sympathetic tone, correct? Because we all know how much of a role this plays in endocrine system function!
I'm also MOST concerned with the specific CNS actions of caffeine. I'm sure that all your research in its effects as a competitive inhibitor of adenosine has given you MUCH insight into its action on Dopamine. And, we all know how the dopamine, norepinephrine, epinephrine neurotransmitter grouping will alter the effects of a Beta agonist!
I'd LOVE to get more insight into your "research." Surely someone with your vast knowledge will be unable to skirt another attack on your ignorance of such topics.
Douche.
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How exactly does Ephedrine exert its effects on the CNS, independent from the PNS? Since you avoided my questions on the pharmacology of insulin, I'm assuming you'll be too proud to do the same with this.
I'd specifically like you to address this "false sense of energy." I felt pretty secure in my understanding of Beta receptor agonism, but your insight on the falsity of its "sense of energy" has me quite intrigued!
If this "crash" you're speaking of in your "research" has a specific psychoactive action, I'd love to hear about it! Are you speaking of adrenal fatigue?
I'm certain that your research into catecholamine activation takes into consideration the activation of central catecholamine levels in relation to peripheral sympathetic tone, correct? Because we all know how much of a role this plays in endocrine system function!
I'm also MOST concerned with the specific CNS actions of caffeine. I'm sure that all your research in its effects as a competitive inhibitor of adenosine has given you MUCH insight into its action on Dopamine. And, we all know how the dopamine, norepinephrine, epinephrine neurotransmitter grouping will alter the effects of a Beta agonist!
I'd LOVE to get more insight into your "research." Surely someone with your vast knowledge will be unable to skirt another attack on your ignorance of such topics.
Douche.
wow thats a massive owning
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How's that an owning?
Wow man, those are some big fancy words. Are you going to deny that stimulants that can possibly be a cause of adrenal fatigue?
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How's that an owning?
Wow man, those are some big fancy words. Are you going to deny that stimulants that can possibly be a cause of adrenal fatigue?
I'm saying you have no fucking clue what adrenal fatigue is.
Aside from Addison's, there is no such thing as adrenal fatigue. It isn't an acceptable medical diagnosis.
What's even more humorous is the fact that most "alternative practitioners" recommend various forms of STIMULANTS for the FAKE disease called "adrenal fatigue."
So yes, I'm going to deny that stimulants can possibly be a cause of adrenal fatigue. I'm also going to go beyond that and deny that adrenal fatigue is even a real fucking disease.
Now, to save face in the proof of your ignorance, I'll give you another chance to explain the pharmacology of the psychoactive substances you spoke as an authority on earlier.
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How's that an owning?
Wow man, those are some big fancy words. Are you going to deny that stimulants that can possibly be a cause of adrenal fatigue?
tranlation= i have no idea what you just said.
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I'm saying you have no fucking clue what adrenal fatigue is.
Aside from Addison's, there is no such thing as adrenal fatigue. It isn't an acceptable medical diagnosis.
What's even more humorous is the fact that most "alternative practitioners" recommend various forms of STIMULANTS for the FAKE disease called "adrenal fatigue."
So yes, I'm going to deny that stimulants can possibly be a cause of adrenal fatigue. I'm also going to go beyond that and deny that adrenal fatigue is even a real fucking disease.
Now, to save face in the proof of your ignorance, I'll give you another chance to explain the pharmacology of the psychoactive substances you spoke as an authority on earlier.
Your the only who called it a "disease", from what I understand it's a syndrome and yes there is a correlation related to Addisons but it could also be called non-Addison's hypoadrenia, neurasthenia and adrenal neurasthenia....I understand that adrenal fatigue is probably the laymans term for it.
Shortly because I am just starting to learn about this, unlike you who seems to be a doctor and me just a trainer who enjoys learning, reading and doing research because I didn't have privilege of finishing college..........but.... .from what I have learned so far is that when a person is stressed, the body reacts a stress response through the sympathetic nervous system. When this happends epinephrine is secreted through the adrenal medulla and the hypothalamus pituitary releases ACTH which in turns causes the adrenal cortex to increase the production of cortisol.
When we have a high stress situation the production of cortisol is increased to such a high level that the can become exhausted and at that time DHEA is will start to decrease with stress. But with chronic stress there is a decompensation of DHEA at the same time cortisol levels are rising.
I'm not done...I'm leaving work right now and will finish my thought when I get home, but I have more. Dude, like I said, I may not have the formal schooling you have but I am damn well willing to learn and you trying to belittle someone just shows your true character, I hope to God your not a Dr. but don't put someone down just because you might know more.
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tranlation= i have no idea what you just said.
and oh BTW......I do know what he said!
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sensitive as a 10 year old girl.. :o
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ephedrine is blah.... i stopped taking that when i was like 18.... moved on to real drugs!
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sensitive as a 10 year old girl.. :o
WTF :-X
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I'm saying you have no fucking clue what adrenal fatigue is.
Aside from Addison's, there is no such thing as adrenal fatigue. It isn't an acceptable medical diagnosis.
What's even more humorous is the fact that most "alternative practitioners" recommend various forms of STIMULANTS for the FAKE disease called "adrenal fatigue."
So yes, I'm going to deny that stimulants can possibly be a cause of adrenal fatigue. I'm also going to go beyond that and deny that adrenal fatigue is even a real fucking disease.
Now, to save face in the proof of your ignorance, I'll give you another chance to explain the pharmacology of the psychoactive substances you spoke as an authority on earlier.
on what grounds are you denying adrenal fatigue exists? it is a syndrome with an complex aggregate of symptoms. It does have some subjective measures however. I am personally on the fence wrt to it.
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on what grounds are you denying adrenal fatigue exists? it is a syndrome with an complex aggregate of symptoms. It does have some subjective measures however. I am personally on the fence wrt to it.
I'm denying adrenal fatigue as a disease on the grounds of it not being an accepted medical diagnosis.
A few quacks selling gimmicks on the net does not an accepted medical diagnosis make. When there is proper AMA guidelines to the diagnosis and treatment of this "disease," I'll call it that.
Until then, it is a made up gimmick that ignorant asses with no backing knowledge like to talk about.
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WTF :-X
what do you consider a "real drug", girl?
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and oh BTW......I do know what he said!
Understanding the English language, and comprehension of material are two very different things.
Anyone with a completed "hooked on phonics" program can "know" what I wrote.
You have not but a clue as to what I'm talking about. Please answer the questions I posed, lest you continue spouting off on subjects you have no understanding of.
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what do you consider a "real drug", girl?
i think when ephedra wasn't doing it i moved on to crystal.... sadly...
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i think when ephedra wasn't doing it i moved on to crystal.... sadly...
ahhh okay, well i guess you werent kidding. is that you you have had in your avatar bfore? your much too pretty to have done crystal for a long period of time. :)
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ahhh okay, well i guess you werent kidding. is that you you have had in your avatar bfore? your much too pretty to have done crystal for a long period of time. :)
to be completely honest I think I went through every kind of "phase" I could have possibly gone through... I can't be a recreational user of anything, so I just stay away from anything and everything all together, good thing I snapped out of it pretty young.... I should have a degree in "self destruction" by now, I'm so fucking good at it!
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I'm denying adrenal fatigue as a disease on the grounds of it not being an accepted medical diagnosis.
A few quacks selling gimmicks on the net does not an accepted medical diagnosis make. When there is proper AMA guidelines to the diagnosis and treatment of this "disease," I'll call it that.
Until then, it is a made up gimmick that ignorant asses with no backing knowledge like to talk about.
Again.......where did I state it was a disease?
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on what grounds are you denying adrenal fatigue exists? it is a syndrome with an complex aggregate of symptoms. It does have some subjective measures however. I am personally on the fence wrt to it.
My guess he's looking for "Adrenal Fatigue" if thats what he's looking for, he's not going to find it. The med term is "adrenal insufficiency".
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lose the ephedra, it causes a very rapid heart rate that the body cannot control, my friend died in he sleep because of it, he was a philadelphia police officer. it has caused numerous deaths throught the country. bad stuff!!!!!!!
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lose the ephedra, it causes a very rapid heart rate that the body cannot control, my friend died in he sleep because of it, he was a philadelphia police officer. it has caused numerous deaths throught the country. bad stuff!!!!!!!
he must have taken a shit load.
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My guess he's looking for "Adrenal Fatigue" if thats what he's looking for, he's not going to find it. The med term is "adrenal insufficiency".
No, adrenal insufficiency is Addison's disease, a REAL disease.
A real disease that is NOT caused by stimulants. Addison's disease is caused by a lack of production of cortisol and often aldosterone.
Do you see the ignorance in your post? Are you claiming that stimulants cause a DECREASE in cortisol production?
And if so, how is this related to the "crash" you wrote about earlier?
You must have shit where your brains should be.
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I'm denying adrenal fatigue as a disease on the grounds of it not being an accepted medical diagnosis.
A few quacks selling gimmicks on the net does not an accepted medical diagnosis make. When there is proper AMA guidelines to the diagnosis and treatment of this "disease," I'll call it that.
Until then, it is a made up gimmick that ignorant asses with no backing knowledge like to talk about.
I agree. That's what I was hinting at in my post. Like with the insulin topic Coach is making a bunch of assumptions that he will have a hard time proving.
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No, adrenal insufficiency is Addison's disease, a REAL disease.
A real disease that is NOT caused by stimulants. Addison's disease is caused by a lack of production of cortisol and often aldosterone.
Do you see the ignorance in your post? Are you claiming that stimulants cause a DECREASE in cortisol production?
And if so, how is this related to the "crash" you wrote about earlier?
You must have shit where your brains should be.
What part of "I did not say it was a disease" dont you get?
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lose the ephedra, it causes a very rapid heart rate that the body cannot control, my friend died in he sleep because of it, he was a philadelphia police officer. it has caused numerous deaths throught the country. bad stuff!!!!!!!
He was probably abusing it or had other conditions also !
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lose the ephedra, it causes a very rapid heart rate that the body cannot control, my friend died in he sleep because of it, he was a philadelphia police officer. it has caused numerous deaths throught the country. bad stuff!!!!!!!
Are you sure it wasn't from the Asama he had around his waist?? Or the greasy cheese steaks he had for breakfast lunch and dinner? ??? Cus we all know cops are the cream of the crop when it comes to fitness ::)
(http://fatcop.10-8.org/Use/FC-101.JPG)
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The problem is the body getting used to it, and stuff like hypertension with heavy use. I think it should be used on and off and at no more than 25mg a day, or less, like 12.5 mg.
Say what you will, but ephedrine is great pick-me-up when you're slumping. Of course chronic use makes it almost pointless, and that's why it should be used on and off with caffine and asprin.
Using more than 25 mg a day is stupid and increases blood pressure to the point where you feel it and believe me it's not a good feeling. I guess different people people respond differently, but 100mg a day for a few weeks can probably kill someone unless they've got a very strong heart.
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Your the only who called it a "disease", from what I understand it's a syndrome and yes there is a correlation related to Addisons but it could also be called non-Addison's hypoadrenia, neurasthenia and adrenal neurasthenia....I understand that adrenal fatigue is probably the laymans term for it.
Shortly because I am just starting to learn about this, unlike you who seems to be a doctor and me just a trainer who enjoys learning, reading and doing research because I didn't have privilege of finishing college..........but.... .from what I have learned so far is that when a person is stressed, the body reacts a stress response through the sympathetic nervous system. When this happends epinephrine is secreted through the adrenal medulla and the hypothalamus pituitary releases ACTH which in turns causes the adrenal cortex to increase the production of cortisol.
When we have a high stress situation the production of cortisol is increased to such a high level that the can become exhausted and at that time DHEA is will start to decrease with stress. But with chronic stress there is a decompensation of DHEA at the same time cortisol levels are rising.
I'm not done...I'm leaving work right now and will finish my thought when I get home, but I have more. Dude, like I said, I may not have the formal schooling you have but I am damn well willing to learn and you trying to belittle someone just shows your true character, I hope to God your not a Dr. but don't put someone down just because you might know more.
Joe:
I hope he is not a doc, either.
The fastest way to lose patients is to spring a bunch of scientific stuff on 'em.
They already know you, as a doc, know all this stuff. They just want their solution, they don't want the babble.
Ever seen 'Good Will Hunting' with Matt Damon?
I love the part where there is some Harvard prep school, silver spoon trust fund sissy, trying to impress girls in a bar with some complicated passage from a book he'd memorized that day. Well, I will not go into detail, cause Damon owned him with REAL knowledge.
Respect for all,
Moose
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Joe:
I hope he is not a doc, either.
The fastest way to lose patients is to spring a bunch of scientific stuff on 'em.
They already know you, as a doc, know all this stuff. They just want their solution, they don't want the babble.
Ever seen 'Good Will Hunting' with Matt Damon?
I love the part where there is some Harvard prep school, silver spoon trust fund sissy, trying to impress girls in a bar with some complicated passage from a book he'd memorized that day. Well, I will not go into detail, cause Damon owned him with REAL knowledge.
Respect for all,
Moose
there is nothing complex about what he said, it is in fact basic physiology.
adrenal fatigue like chronic fatigue, fibro have little objective parameters and like i said are often issues related to sub clinical sequelae. Adrenal fatigue is simply low cortisol output along with other maladies that doesnt fit addisions. to deny that it is not a disease because it is not classified by the AMA is both ignorant and dangerous. Psychiatric pathologies have mostly subjective criteria for diagnosis and many miasms if you will that are subclinical. Sure people suffer from GAD, but alot have anxiety that would not be classified as such, it is abstract anyway. This analogy fits with things like fatigue, headaches, etc with hard to discover organic etiology. I doubt it is a disease, but a poor adrenal health apart from addisions certainly exists.
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How do ya like them apples!?
(http://cloudofwitnesses.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/good_will_hunting_1.jpg)
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How do ya like them apples!?
(http://cloudofwitnesses.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/good_will_hunting_1.jpg)
FUCK that movie is greAt!
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I'm denying adrenal fatigue as a disease on the grounds of it not being an accepted medical diagnosis.
A few quacks selling gimmicks on the net does not an accepted medical diagnosis make. When there is proper AMA guidelines to the diagnosis and treatment of this "disease," I'll call it that.
Until then, it is a made up gimmick that ignorant asses with no backing knowledge like to talk about.
"I'm denying adrenal fatigue as a disease on the grounds of it not being an accepted medical diagnosis"
meh i dont accept borderline disorders of the psyche, the subgroupings of depression nor there etiology, really a moot point, it can still be a issue without medical science. CFS wasnt accepted but a few years ago, if someone feels ill, there is usually something wrong.
many doctors are treating low adrenal function like they would low testosterone, with HTR. Low end test is not a medical diagnosis, but low libido, muscle gain, energy, mood etc are experienced i beleive it warrants treatment, as is the case with people with adreanal insufficiency.
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The problem is the body getting used to it, and stuff like hypertension with heavy use. I think it should be used on and off and at no more than 25mg a day, or less, like 12.5 mg.
Say what you will, but ephedrine is great pick-me-up when you're slumping. Of course chronic use makes it almost pointless, and that's why it should be used on and off with caffine and asprin.
Using more than 25 mg a day is stupid and increases blood pressure to the point where you feel it and believe me it's not a good feeling. I guess different people people respond differently, but 100mg a day for a few weeks can probably kill someone unless they've got a very strong heart.
The body doesn't get used to it. Only the negative effects lessen with use (insomnia, hyperstimulation, etc), not the anorectic and thermogenic effects.
Blood pressure is usually not a concern. It has been quite safe in obese populations at 60mg/day with 600mg caffeine. How do you feel your blood pressure is high? High BP is called "the silent killer" you know.
The aspirin would be the most dangerous part of the ECA stack IMO and not needed anyway.
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The aspirin would be the most dangerous part of the ECA stack IMO and not needed anyway.
ephedrine has shitty effects on the cns and cardiovascular system, aspirin is the safest healthiest thing in that stack.
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i always use the aspirin, but only 81 mg's. the baaby dose. i dont feel the need or the urge to take the suggested 324 mg's...
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ephedrine has shitty effects on the cns and cardiovascular system, aspirin is the safest healthiest thing in that stack.
Please elaborate. What kind of negative effects could expect from chronic ephedrine use? How would the side effects manifest? One negative effect I think is fairly common with long term use is BPH.
Aspirin is bad on the stomach. Doing 300mg of aspirin a few times a day, or whatever some recommend, for an extended period could be downright dangerous. One baby aspirin a day, maybe not too bad.
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The body doesn't get used to it. Only the negative effects lessen with use (insomnia, hyperstimulation, etc), not the anorectic and thermogenic effects.
Blood pressure is usually not a concern. It has been quite safe in obese populations at 60mg/day with 600mg caffeine. How do you feel your blood pressure is high? High BP is called "the silent killer" you know.
The aspirin would be the most dangerous part of the ECA stack IMO and not needed anyway.
I got hypertension from using 100-125mg a day along with 600-700mg of caffine.. I could feel it.
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Please elaborate. What kind of negative effects could expect from chronic ephedrine use? How would the side effects manifest? One negative effect I think is fairly common with long term use is BPH.
Aspirin is bad on the stomach. Doing 300mg of aspirin a few times a day, or whatever some recommend, for an extended period could be downright dangerous. One baby aspirin a day, maybe not too bad.
You're telling me you've never felt any negatives effects(besides insomnia) with heavy ephedrine use? No heart pains?
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pnwed
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You're telling me you've never felt any negatives effects(besides insomnia) with heavy ephedrine use? No heart pains?
you werent asking me, but no i have never had any negative sides. ive taken up to 100mg at one time.
stupidasfuck
but no negative sides
or i just didnt feel any, cuz of the x and caffiene and weed running trough m at the same time
:o
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I got hypertension from using 100-125mg a day along with 600-700mg of caffine.. I could feel it.
But did you get it tested? It's possible that there was an increase but it's not enough to go by feel IMO. A couple of weeks ago I went to doc and she noticed my hands were shaking (due to having taken a bunch of ephedrine which she didn't know). She wanted to take my BP which was came out very good.
You're telling me you've never felt any negatives effects(besides insomnia) with heavy ephedrine use? No heart pains?
I have used ephedrine on and off for 15 years and the only real side effect I think is related to the ephedrine is some prostate swelling. No heart pains. That's another thing, I did have chest pains once but turned out I had pulled a muscle in my ribcage.
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you werent asking me, but no i have never had any negative sides. ive taken up to 100mg at one time.
stupidasfuck
but no negative sides
or i just didnt feel any, cuz of the x and caffiene and weed running trough m at the same time
:o
100mg a day for more than a week? ;D With espresso shots, instant coffee, caffine tabs from cvs, and diet soda?
When I stick to 25 mg a day or slightly more, I don't have any negative side effects expect for some insomnia; positives include getting wired. ;D
Maybe different people respond differently. 240 said his heart felt weird while taking ephedrine, and mine does with very high doses(100mg) for more than a week or so.
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Please elaborate. What kind of negative effects could expect from chronic ephedrine use? How would the side effects manifest? One negative effect I think is fairly common with long term use is BPH.
Aspirin is bad on the stomach. Doing 300mg of aspirin a few times a day, or whatever some recommend, for an extended period could be downright dangerous. One baby aspirin a day, maybe not too bad.
81mg of aspirin has shown prophylactic effects against various cancers, and cardiovascular disease, many healthy people should take it. It has also shown effects against dementia and alzhemiers by reducing tau tangles, plauqes etc..
for one you can permently screw up your adrenal fucntion. exogenous application of eppies causes the adrenals to pump out more catecholamines, chronic use can cause damage. Also, eph is not selective in its beta agonism, thus you get the goodies, the fat loss with the bad stuff, such as increased heart rate, ateriole constriction, higher blood pressure all of this has a cumulative effect. the short burst of catecholamines is also bad for the psyche when coming down, similar to amphetamines.
beta receptor downregulation could occur, Hence the need for higher and higher doses, your body maintains homeostasis above all else, dont think there isnt consequences to those actions. The higher doses cause more cardiovascular issues. Not to mention that catecholamine release will inhibit the parasympathetic system via sympthomimetic action of eph., causing poor digestion among other things.
im not saying dont use it, im saying long term chronic use of any stim is dangerous, especially a shotgun stim like ephedrine.
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81mg of aspirin has shown prophylactic effects against various cancers, and cardiovascular disease, many healthy people should take it. It has also shown effects against dementia and alzhemiers by reducing tau tangles, plauqes etc..
for one you can permently screw up your adrenal fucntion. exogenous application of eppies causes the adrenals to pump out more catecholamines, chronic use can cause damage. Also, eph is not selective in its beta agonism, thus you get the goodies, the fat loss with the bad stuff, such as increased heart rate, ateriole constriction, higher blood pressure all of this has a cumulative effect. the short burst of catecholamines is also bad for the psyche when coming down, similar to amphetamines.
beta receptor downregulation could occur, Hence the need for higher and higher doses, your body maintains homeostasis above all else, dont think there isnt consequences to those actions. The higher doses cause more cardiovascular issues. Not to mention that catecholamine release will inhibit the parasympathetic system via sympthomimetic action of eph., causing poor digestion among other things.
im not saying dont use it, im saying long term chronic use of any stim is dangerous, especially a shotgun stim like ephedrine.
I have seen some differing opinions on the aspirin as preventative medicine. There was some issue with people having heart attacks when dropping it cold turkey. Then there were some issue with potential kidney and liver toxicity with long term use. I think it's like with everything, there are some good effects along with some potentially bad. Who do you think should take a baby aspirin daily?
Do you know of any research showing adrenal damage from ephedrine or other stimulants?
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100mg a day for more than a week? ;D With espresso shots, instant coffee, caffine tabs from cvs, and diet soda?
When I stick to 25 mg a day or slightly more, I don't have any negative side effects expect for some insomnia; positives include getting wired. ;D
Maybe different people respond differently. 240 said his heart felt weird while taking ephedrine, and mine does with very high doses(100mg) for more than a week or so.
no, but 100 mg at ONE TIME, along with i dont know how many redlines, endless blunts, a tab of x.
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25mg? thats it? ???
http://wilstar.com/caffeine.htm
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I have seen some differing opinions on the aspirin as preventative medicine. There was some issue with people having heart attacks when dropping it cold turkey. Then there were some issue with potential kidney and liver toxicity with long term use. I think it's like with everything, there are some good effects along with some potentially bad. Who do you think should take a baby aspirin daily?
Do you know of any research showing adrenal damage from ephedrine or other stimulants?
ill respond to your post tom as im going to bed, just so you know that i will respond. Ill post some stuff from pubmed tom.
imo all healthy adults should take baby aspirin. liver toxicity is minimal at that dosage nothing as is kidney. reduced blood pressure from blood thinning would offset that effect. Intestinal ulceration is the main issue, but 81 is a minimal amount of ASA. preventing heart attack, the number one killer, various forms of cancer, and biomarkers of metabolic syndrome far outweigh the risks in my opinion.
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25mg? thats it? ???
http://wilstar.com/caffeine.htm
no, 25mg of ephedrine, not 25mg caffiene...thats like 1/2 of a diet soda
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no, 25mg of ephedrine, not 25mg caffiene...thats like 1/2 of a diet soda
oh my bad.
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Adrenal Fatigue is a collection of signs and symptoms, known as a "syndrome", that results when the adrenal glands function below the necessary level. Most commonly associated with intense or prolonged stress, it can also arise during or after acute or chronic infections, especially respiratory infections such as influenza, bronchitis or pneumonia. As the name suggests, its paramount symptom is fatigue that is not relieved by sleep but it is not a readily identifiable entity like measles or a growth on the end of your finger. You may look and act relatively normal with Adrenal Fatigue and may not have any obvious signs of physical illness, yet you live with a general sense of unwellness, tiredness or "gray" feelings. People suffering from Adrenal Fatigue often have to use coffee, colas and other stimulants to get going in the morning and to prop themselves up during the day.
This syndrome has been known by many other names throughout the past century, such as non-Addison's hypoadrenia, sub-clinical hypoadrenia, neurasthenia, adrenal neurasthenia, adrenal apathy and adrenal fatigue. Although it affects millions of people in the U.S. and around the world, conventional medicine does not yet recognize it as a distinct syndrome.
Adrenal Fatigue can wreak havoc with your life. In the more serious cases, the activity of the adrenal glands is so diminished that you may have difficulty getting out of bed for more than a few hours per day. With each increment of reduction in adrenal function, every organ and system in your body is more profoundly affected. Changes occur in your carbohydrate, protein and fat metabolism, fluid and electrolyte balance, heart and cardiovascular system, and even sex drive. Many other alterations take place at the biochemical and cellular levels in response to and to compensate for the decrease in adrenal hormones that occurs with Adrenal Fatigue. Your body does its best to make up for under-functioning adrenal glands, but it does so at a price.
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Adrenal Fatigue is produced when your adrenal glands cannot adequately meet the demands of stress. The adrenal glands mobilize your body's response to every kind of stress (whether it's physical, emotional or psychological) through hormones that regulate energy production and storage, heart rate, muscle tone, and other processes that enable you to cope with the stress. Whether you have an emotional crisis such as the death of a loved one, a physical crisis such as major surgery, or any type of severe repeated or constant stress in your life, your adrenals have to respond. If they don't, or if their response is inadequate, you will experience some degree of Adrenal Fatigue.
In Adrenal Fatigue your adrenal glands function, but not enough to maintain your normal, healthy homeostasis. Their output of regulatory hormones has been diminished by over-stimulation. This over- stimulation can be caused either by a very intense single stress or by chronic or repeated stresses that have a cumulative effect.
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Adrenal Fatigue is produced when your adrenal glands cannot adequately meet the demands of stress. The adrenal glands mobilize your body's response to every kind of stress (whether it's physical, emotional or psychological) through hormones that regulate energy production and storage, heart rate, muscle tone, and other processes that enable you to cope with the stress. Whether you have an emotional crisis such as the death of a loved one, a physical crisis such as major surgery, or any type of severe repeated or constant stress in your life, your adrenals have to respond. If they don't, or if their response is inadequate, you will experience some degree of Adrenal Fatigue.
In Adrenal Fatigue your adrenal glands function, but not enough to maintain your normal, healthy homeostasis. Their output of regulatory hormones has been diminished by over-stimulation. This over- stimulation can be caused either by a very intense single stress or by chronic or repeated stresses that have a cumulative effect.
Nice cut and paste douchbag
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Nice cut and paste douchbag
Hey, if they won't believe me in my own words (like in the previous post) might as well do it this way........BTW....fuck you! Come back with a debate or don't get involved, what a fucking child!
You have a problem, PM me or go away, you haven't contributed to shit on here Junior!!
I also posted it this was because the other idiot kept saying I was referring to it as a "disease" even after I told him numerous times it wasn't. I'm sorry, what was your take on this subject???????????????
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Hey, if they won't believe me in my own words (like in the previous post) might as well do it this way........BTW....fuck you! Come back with a debate or don't get involved, what a fucking child!
You have a problem, PM me or go away, you haven't contributed to shit on here Junior!!
::)
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Hey, if they won't believe me in my own words (like in the previous post) might as well do it this way........BTW....fuck you! Come back with a debate or don't get involved, what a fucking child!
You have a problem, PM me or go away, you haven't contributed to shit on here Junior!!
Go to hell old man, please retire from getbig for the 10th time and get divorced again; aren't you overdue. Three time loser.
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Go to hell old man, please retire from getbig for the 10th time and get divorced again; aren't you overdue. Three time loser.
Nice contribution loser ::)
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Nice contribution loser ::)
Loser? Loco that word is owned by you. Loser in bodybuilding, Loser in love, Loser in life. Go kill yourself now.
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enanthate owns you loco! >:(
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Loser? Loco that word is owned by you. Loser in bodybuilding, Loser in love, Loser in life. Go kill yourself now.
Ok son....LOL!
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enanthate owns you loco! >:(
Yes, I can tell..LOL!
Is past your bedtime, go now....scoot :)
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Ok son....LOL!
Got any of those pictures you like to post from 20 years ago, o and what about those 400lb bench press claims in high school or was it 500lbs. You are a girl and your wife probably depises you by now. Still posting pics of your kis on the internet, i'm sure he will appreciate that later in life. Another family member that will think you are a shitbag what a surprise.
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Yes, I can tell..LOL!
Is past your bedtime, go now....scoot :)
oh shi your right i was supposed to be asleep 17 minutes ago! hope i dont get grounded! :D
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JoeLoco will get more HRT scripts from his friendly doctor in order to engage Enanthator in the cage.
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Coach, do you have the link to the original article you quoted there?
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Adrenal Fatigue is a collection of signs and symptoms, known as a "syndrome", that results when the adrenal glands function below the necessary level. Most commonly associated with intense or prolonged stress, it can also arise during or after acute or chronic infections, especially respiratory infections such as influenza, bronchitis or pneumonia. As the name suggests, its paramount symptom is fatigue that is not relieved by sleep but it is not a readily identifiable entity like measles or a growth on the end of your finger. You may look and act relatively normal with Adrenal Fatigue and may not have any obvious signs of physical illness, yet you live with a general sense of unwellness, tiredness or "gray" feelings. People suffering from Adrenal Fatigue often have to use coffee, colas and other stimulants to get going in the morning and to prop themselves up during the day.
This syndrome has been known by many other names throughout the past century, such as non-Addison's hypoadrenia, sub-clinical hypoadrenia, neurasthenia, adrenal neurasthenia, adrenal apathy and adrenal fatigue. Although it affects millions of people in the U.S. and around the world, conventional medicine does not yet recognize it as a distinct syndrome.
Adrenal Fatigue can wreak havoc with your life. In the more serious cases, the activity of the adrenal glands is so diminished that you may have difficulty getting out of bed for more than a few hours per day. With each increment of reduction in adrenal function, every organ and system in your body is more profoundly affected. Changes occur in your carbohydrate, protein and fat metabolism, fluid and electrolyte balance, heart and cardiovascular system, and even sex drive. Many other alterations take place at the biochemical and cellular levels in response to and to compensate for the decrease in adrenal hormones that occurs with Adrenal Fatigue. Your body does its best to make up for under-functioning adrenal glands, but it does so at a price.
translation= i'm getting my ass handed to me so i'll copy and paste in the hopes that people won't see me for the retard that i am being proven to be by I ETA PI in this thread.
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I have seen some differing opinions on the aspirin as preventative medicine. There was some issue with people having heart attacks when dropping it cold turkey. Then there were some issue with potential kidney and liver toxicity with long term use. I think it's like with everything, there are some good effects along with some potentially bad. Who do you think should take a baby aspirin daily?
Do you know of any research showing adrenal damage from ephedrine or other stimulants?
It's not adrenal "damage" you have to worry about with prolonged, ongoing, high dose stimulant use. The adrenals will continue to work well, squeezing gluco-corticoid out with every exogenous stressor. This creates a chronic cortisol state and leads to peripheral insulin resistance. This is why many stimulant abusers of very pro-longed duration, who are concomitantly too fearful of weight regain to take drug holidays, are often left dissatisfied with their long term body composition. Mind you they recount superb results when they first began using stimulants, but now some report backsliding.
For astute followers of clinical endocrinology, you will notice that just about all of the stimulant based obesity medications either slow down, stop, or even revert the rate of weight loss they originally proffered. However, this is not because the stimulant has stopped working, quite the contrary the stimulant is still working, and working well-pumping out glucocorticoid that confers positive feedback on the CNS versus the more conventional negative feedback loop most couch scientists are aware of. And therein lies the quandary.
The weight loss dissatisfaction that is at times seen with long term, chronic, high dose users of stimulants that also constantly require dose escalation, is the result of an evolving metabolic millieu that does not favor body composition in the long run. With each dose they take after day #1 they begin traversing towards an insulin resistant state, which unlike the acute insulin resistance one gets from virginal rhGH use, will hamper fat to lean ration. In fact women who began prescription diet pills in the 70's and never took a break, often times show the same emotional, psychiatric, and physiologic signs and symptoms as those who require glucocorticoid therapy such as prednisone for autoimmune disorders. Even some homology can be drawn, albeit less patently with Cushing's.
Note all of the above specifically addresses those who 1) take stimulants for years and years 2) take ever increasing doses 3) never take drug holidays. Of course, this can all be obviated with judicious dosing, but more importantly, conservative frequency of use.
Now, if there were only some way to throw out the bath water without the baby...
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It's not adrenal "damage" you have to worry about with prolonged, ongoing, high dose stimulant use. The adrenals will continue to work well, squeezing gluco-corticoid out with every exogenous stressor. This creates a chronic cortisol state and leads to peripheral insulin resistance. This is why many stimulant abusers of very pro-longed duration, who are concomitantly too fearful of weight regain to take drug holidays, are often left dissatisfied with their long term body composition. Mind you they recount superb results when they first began using stimulants, but now some report backsliding.
For astute followers of clinical endocrinology, you will notice that just about all of the stimulant based obesity medications either slow down, stop, or even revert the rate of weight loss they originally proffered. However, this is not because the stimulant has stopped working, quite the contrary the stimulant is still working, and working well-pumping out glucocorticoid that confers positive feedback on the CNS versus the more conventional negative feedback loop most couch scientists are aware of. And therein lies the quandary.
The weight loss dissatisfaction that is at times seen with long term, chronic, high dose users of stimulants that also constantly require dose escalation, is the result of an evolving metabolic millieu that does not favor body composition in the long run. With each dose they take after day #1 they begin traversing towards an insulin resistant state, which unlike the acute insulin resistance one gets from virginal rhGH use, will hamper fat to lean ration. In fact women who began prescription diet pills in the 70's and never took a break, often times show the same emotional, psychiatric, and physiologic signs and symptoms as those who require glucocorticoid therapy such as prednisone for autoimmune disorders. Even some homology can be drawn, albeit less patently with Cushing's.
Note all of the above specifically addresses those who 1) take stimulants for years and years 2) take ever increasing doses 3) never take drug holidays. Of course, this can all be obviated with judicious dosing, but more importantly, conservative frequency of use.
Now, if there were only some way to throw out the bath water without the baby...
An understanding of physiology here on getbig?
How wonderful to see that comprehension of human science is alive and well!
AGB, why hast thou stayed quiet for so long? This post should be force fed to all those attempting to speak with authoritarian tone on subjects they have no clue about. I'd give you positive rep points if this site were lame enough to have them!
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An understanding of physiology here on getbig?
How wonderful to see that comprehension of human science is alive and well!
AGB, why hast thou stayed quiet for so long? This post should be force fed to all those attempting to speak with authoritarian tone on subjects they have no clue about. I'd give you positive rep points if this site were lame enough to have them!
Go eat a dick bitch.
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81mg of aspirin has shown prophylactic effects against various cancers, and cardiovascular disease, many healthy people should take it. It has also shown effects against dementia and alzhemiers by reducing tau tangles, plauqes etc..
for one you can permently screw up your adrenal fucntion. exogenous application of eppies causes the adrenals to pump out more catecholamines, chronic use can cause damage. Also, eph is not selective in its beta agonism, thus you get the goodies, the fat loss with the bad stuff, such as increased heart rate, ateriole constriction, higher blood pressure all of this has a cumulative effect. the short burst of catecholamines is also bad for the psyche when coming down, similar to amphetamines.
beta receptor downregulation could occur, Hence the need for higher and higher doses, your body maintains homeostasis above all else, dont think there isnt consequences to those actions. The higher doses cause more cardiovascular issues. Not to mention that catecholamine release will inhibit the parasympathetic system via sympthomimetic action of eph., causing poor digestion among other things.
im not saying dont use it, im saying long term chronic use of any stim is dangerous, especially a shotgun stim like ephedrine.
The ASA helps prolong the effects (along with caffeine) by lowering prostaglandin production. The combo elevates cAMP levels for a longer period.
ASA can also raise serotonin levels by freeing up L-tryptophan. Serotonin essentially works opposite of the "adrenaline neurotransmitters," but anyone taking MDMA will see that some positive mood correlations can come from elevated production or inhibited re-uptake of the mono-amine neurotransmitters.
I doubt there is any significant digestive issues with the level of stimulation from ECA. Patients are frequently loaded up with various stimulants for ADHD in levels that would raise CA higher than a normal ECA cycle. A decrease in salivation, appetite, and gastric clearance rates may/will be noticed, but anyone in the midst of a contest prep diet will know that leptin/ghrelin eventually trumps all in the end.
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Go eat a dick bitch.
Thank you for the compliment, I accept your apology.
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I cannot believe no ones mentioned Cocaine as a stimulate for vicious training,The only time i used it was before a chest workout at my freind insistance i was lifting heavier and more endurance more reps and a incredible high and the most constructive workout i ever had.
Shit if i was ever going to get back into serious training again i would use it 3 to 4 times per week before serious training pity, it costs so much in OZ compared to the US
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you werent asking me, but no i have never had any negative sides. ive taken up to 100mg at one time.
stupidasfuck
but no negative sides
or i just didnt feel any, cuz of the x and caffiene and weed running trough m at the same time
:o
moron
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Thank you for the compliment, I accept your apology.
don't pay any attention to MONSTER triceps- he claimed a little while back that hugh jackman had the ideal physique and that he strives to one day look like that.
all things considered then, i would say he's a bit of a nancy boy.
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BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!!!!!! ;D
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=192644.0;attach=223842;image)
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I cannot believe no ones mentioned Cocaine as a stimulate for vicious training,The only time i used it was before a chest workout at my freind insistance i was lifting heavier and more endurance more reps and a incredible high and the most constructive workout i ever had.
Shit if i was ever going to get back into serious training again i would use it 3 to 4 times per week before serious training pity, it costs so much in OZ compared to the US
yes and if you did that you would end up doing it 3-4 times a day
you cannot fuck around with cocaine like that. if your gonna do it you shouldnt use it before a workout...youll en up using it every workout. and you should only use it occasionally on the weekends, and make sure to have some weed available for the come down.. or else youll be sad as fuck and desperate for more coke..
trust me. i thought the exact same thing you did. and i did exactly what you said you would do.
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It's not adrenal "damage" you have to worry about with prolonged, ongoing, high dose stimulant use. The adrenals will continue to work well, squeezing gluco-corticoid out with every exogenous stressor. This creates a chronic cortisol state and leads to peripheral insulin resistance. This is why many stimulant abusers of very pro-longed duration, who are concomitantly too fearful of weight regain to take drug holidays, are often left dissatisfied with their long term body composition. Mind you they recount superb results when they first began using stimulants, but now some report backsliding.
For astute followers of clinical endocrinology, you will notice that just about all of the stimulant based obesity medications either slow down, stop, or even revert the rate of weight loss they originally proffered. However, this is not because the stimulant has stopped working, quite the contrary the stimulant is still working, and working well-pumping out glucocorticoid that confers positive feedback on the CNS versus the more conventional negative feedback loop most couch scientists are aware of. And therein lies the quandary.
The weight loss dissatisfaction that is at times seen with long term, chronic, high dose users of stimulants that also constantly require dose escalation, is the result of an evolving metabolic millieu that does not favor body composition in the long run. With each dose they take after day #1 they begin traversing towards an insulin resistant state, which unlike the acute insulin resistance one gets from virginal rhGH use, will hamper fat to lean ration. In fact women who began prescription diet pills in the 70's and never took a break, often times show the same emotional, psychiatric, and physiologic signs and symptoms as those who require glucocorticoid therapy such as prednisone for autoimmune disorders. Even some homology can be drawn, albeit less patently with Cushing's.
Note all of the above specifically addresses those who 1) take stimulants for years and years 2) take ever increasing doses 3) never take drug holidays. Of course, this can all be obviated with judicious dosing, but more importantly, conservative frequency of use.
Now, if there were only some way to throw out the bath water without the baby...
LOL,
oh brother.... what is it with all these "MD triple MD" posters nowadays ::)
These guys are getting annoying....
Trying to ego-boost with pubmed searches and eloquent language is gayer than blaming advil ::)
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BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!!!!!! ;D
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=192644.0;attach=223842;image)
Epic One Titted Gyno ;D ;D
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No, adrenal insufficiency is Addison's disease, a REAL disease.
A real disease that is NOT caused by stimulants. Addison's disease is caused by a lack of production of cortisol and often aldosterone.
Do you see the ignorance in your post? Are you claiming that stimulants cause a DECREASE in cortisol production?
And if so, how is this related to the "crash" you wrote about earlier?
You must have shit where your brains should be.
Background
Do not confuse acute adrenal crisis with Addison disease. In 1855, Thomas Addison described a syndrome of long-term adrenal insufficiency that develops over months to years, with weakness, fatigue, anorexia, weight loss, and hyperpigmentation as the primary symptoms. In contrast, an acute adrenal crisis can manifest with vomiting, abdominal pain, and hypovolemic shock.
Pathophysiology
The adrenal cortex produces 3 steroid hormones: glucocorticoids (cortisol), mineralocorticoids (aldosterone, 11-deoxycorticosterone), and androgens (dehydroepiandrosterone). The androgens are relatively unimportant in adults, and 11-deoxycorticosterone is a fairly weak mineralocorticoid in comparison to aldosterone. The primary hormone of importance in acute adrenal crisis is cortisol; adrenal aldosterone production is relatively minor.
Cortisol enhances gluconeogenesis and provides substrate through proteolysis, protein synthesis inhibition, fatty acid mobilization, and enhanced hepatic amino acid uptake. Cortisol indirectly induces insulin secretion to counterbalance hyperglycemia but also decreases insulin sensitivity. Cortisol also has a significant anti-inflammatory effect through stabilizing lysosomes, reducing leukocytic responses, and blocking cytokine production. Phagocytic activity is preserved, but cell-mediated immunity is diminished in situations of cortisol deficiency. Finally, cortisol facilitates free water clearance, enhances appetite, and suppresses adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) synthesis.
Aldosterone is released in response to angiotensin II stimulation via the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system, hyperkalemia, hyponatremia, and dopamine antagonists. Its effect on its primary target organ, the kidney, is to promote reabsorption of sodium and secretion of potassium and hydrogen. The mechanism of action is unclear; an increase in the sodium- and potassium-activated adenosine triphosphatase (Na+/K+ ATPase) enzyme responsible for sodium transport, as well as increased carbonic anhydrase activity, has been suggested. The net effect is to increase intravascular volume. The renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system is unaffected by exogenous glucocorticoids, and ACTH deficiency has a relatively minor effect on aldosterone levels.
Adrenocortical hormone deficiency results in the reverse of these hormonal effects, producing the clinical findings of adrenal crisis.
Primary adrenocortical insufficiency occurs when the adrenal glands fail to release adequate amounts of these hormones to meet physiologic needs, despite release of ACTH from the pituitary. Infiltrative or autoimmune disorders are the most common cause, but adrenal exhaustion from severe chronic illness also may occur.
Secondary adrenocortical insufficiency occurs when exogenous steroids have suppressed the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis. Too rapid withdrawal of exogenous steroid may precipitate adrenal crisis, or sudden stress may induce cortisol requirements in excess of the adrenal glands' ability to respond immediately. In acute illness, a normal cortisol level may actually reflect adrenal insufficiency because the cortisol level should be quite elevated.
Bilateral massive adrenal hemorrhage (BMAH) occurs under severe physiologic stress (eg, myocardial infarction, septic shock, complicated pregnancy) or with concomitant coagulopathy or thromboembolic disorders.
http://www.emedicine.com/med/TOPIC65.HTM
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Addisons Disease
Background
Thomas Addison first described the clinical presentation of primary adrenocortical insufficiency (Addison disease) in 1855 in his classic paper, On the Constitutional and Local Effects of Disease of the Supra-Renal Capsules.
Pathophysiology
Addison disease is adrenocortical insufficiency due to the destruction or dysfunction of the entire adrenal cortex. It affects both glucocorticoid and mineralocorticoid function. The onset of disease usually occurs when 90% or more of both adrenal cortices are dysfunctional or destroyed.
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic42.htm
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Background
Do not confuse acute adrenal crisis with Addison disease. In 1855, Thomas Addison described a syndrome of long-term adrenal insufficiency that develops over months to years, with weakness, fatigue, anorexia, weight loss, and hyperpigmentation as the primary symptoms. In contrast, an acute adrenal crisis can manifest with vomiting, abdominal pain, and hypovolemic shock.
Pathophysiology
The adrenal cortex produces 3 steroid hormones: glucocorticoids (cortisol), mineralocorticoids (aldosterone, 11-deoxycorticosterone), and androgens (dehydroepiandrosterone). The androgens are relatively unimportant in adults, and 11-deoxycorticosterone is a fairly weak mineralocorticoid in comparison to aldosterone. The primary hormone of importance in acute adrenal crisis is cortisol; adrenal aldosterone production is relatively minor.
Cortisol enhances gluconeogenesis and provides substrate through proteolysis, protein synthesis inhibition, fatty acid mobilization, and enhanced hepatic amino acid uptake. Cortisol indirectly induces insulin secretion to counterbalance hyperglycemia but also decreases insulin sensitivity. Cortisol also has a significant anti-inflammatory effect through stabilizing lysosomes, reducing leukocytic responses, and blocking cytokine production. Phagocytic activity is preserved, but cell-mediated immunity is diminished in situations of cortisol deficiency. Finally, cortisol facilitates free water clearance, enhances appetite, and suppresses adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) synthesis.
Aldosterone is released in response to angiotensin II stimulation via the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system, hyperkalemia, hyponatremia, and dopamine antagonists. Its effect on its primary target organ, the kidney, is to promote reabsorption of sodium and secretion of potassium and hydrogen. The mechanism of action is unclear; an increase in the sodium- and potassium-activated adenosine triphosphatase (Na+/K+ ATPase) enzyme responsible for sodium transport, as well as increased carbonic anhydrase activity, has been suggested. The net effect is to increase intravascular volume. The renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system is unaffected by exogenous glucocorticoids, and ACTH deficiency has a relatively minor effect on aldosterone levels.
Adrenocortical hormone deficiency results in the reverse of these hormonal effects, producing the clinical findings of adrenal crisis.
Primary adrenocortical insufficiency occurs when the adrenal glands fail to release adequate amounts of these hormones to meet physiologic needs, despite release of ACTH from the pituitary. Infiltrative or autoimmune disorders are the most common cause, but adrenal exhaustion from severe chronic illness also may occur.
Secondary adrenocortical insufficiency occurs when exogenous steroids have suppressed the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis. Too rapid withdrawal of exogenous steroid may precipitate adrenal crisis, or sudden stress may induce cortisol requirements in excess of the adrenal glands' ability to respond immediately. In acute illness, a normal cortisol level may actually reflect adrenal insufficiency because the cortisol level should be quite elevated.
Bilateral massive adrenal hemorrhage (BMAH) occurs under severe physiologic stress (eg, myocardial infarction, septic shock, complicated pregnancy) or with concomitant coagulopathy or thromboembolic disorders.
There is no medical diagnosable term of "adrenal fatigue." The Mayo Clinic is adament about this fact, feeling strongly enough about the general misunderstanding of this phenomenon to include articles stating this fact.
The most humorous aspect in all of this is that you continue to COPY and PASTE articles that REFUTE your claims.
Adrenal fatigue is not a REAL medical diagnosis, that is 100% clear. But, what is even more funny is that the QUACKS claiming adrenal fatigue treatments use STIMULANTS as treatment for the "illness."
So, even if adrenal fatigue was accepted by the medical community, it would NOT be caused by stimulant intake.
You saw another ignorant idiot mention adrenal fatigue somewhere and thanks to your total lack of knowledge in all things relating to science, you decided to spout off incorrectly about an illness that isn't even a real diagnosis.
In case you can't follow what that says.....You just copy and pasted an article that states adrenal fatigue is a LACK of cortisol production.....all the while claiming that stimulants (those little thingies that can raise cortisol levels) cause adrenal fatigue.
According to coach: increased cortisol = lack of cortisol. (which is entirely moot as there is no such thing as adrenal fatigue)
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Addisons Disease
Background
Thomas Addison first described the clinical presentation of primary adrenocortical insufficiency (Addison disease) in 1855 in his classic paper, On the Constitutional and Local Effects of Disease of the Supra-Renal Capsules.
Pathophysiology
Addison disease is adrenocortical insufficiency due to the destruction or dysfunction of the entire adrenal cortex. It affects both glucocorticoid and mineralocorticoid function. The onset of disease usually occurs when 90% or more of both adrenal cortices are dysfunctional or destroyed.
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic42.htm
Now you have me confused.
I stated initially that Addison's disease is a "real" adrenal gland disorder. This is NOT adrenal fatigue.
Addison's disease involves deficiencies in Cortisol and Aldosterone, primarily. This has NOTHING to do with any level of over-stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system.
I no longer have any level of doubt that you're a moron, now I'm beginning to wonder if you can even read.
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Hey, your the one who said it was addisons, im just making the comparison. I also never said it was a disease or a medical diagnosis.....those were your words. And yes, i saw that article from the Mayo a couple of months ago.
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Joeloco, put that motherfvcker in his place !
i eta pi = HUGE douchebag.
NT
Yeah, the dude definately lacks in people skills.
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Now you have me confused.
This is NOT adrenal fatigue.
Addison's disease involves deficiencies in Cortisol and Aldosterone, primarily. This has NOTHING to do with any level of over-stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system.
I no longer have any level of doubt that you're a moron, now I'm beginning to wonder if you can even read.
I never said Addison's was adrenal fatigue, you in fact posted that Addison's was adrenal insuffieniency, I posted those two articles to show that it was not the same thing as you claim. Also, you don't have to give the definition of Addison's.........I already posted it! In case you missed it, here's the link again.
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic42.htm
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Your the only who called it a "disease", from what I understand it's a syndrome and yes there is a correlation related to Addisons but it could also be called non-Addison's hypoadrenia, neurasthenia and adrenal neurasthenia....I understand that adrenal fatigue is probably the laymans term for it.
Shortly because I am just starting to learn about this, unlike you who seems to be a doctor and me just a trainer who enjoys learning, reading and doing research because I didn't have privilege of finishing college..........but.... .from what I have learned so far is that when a person is stressed, the body reacts a stress response through the sympathetic nervous system. When this happends epinephrine is secreted through the adrenal medulla and the hypothalamus pituitary releases ACTH which in turns causes the adrenal cortex to increase the production of cortisol.
When we have a high stress situation the production of cortisol is increased to such a high level that the can become exhausted and at that time DHEA is will start to decrease with stress. But with chronic stress there is a decompensation of DHEA at the same time cortisol levels are rising.
I'm not done...I'm leaving work right now and will finish my thought when I get home, but I have more. Dude, like I said, I may not have the formal schooling you have but I am damn well willing to learn and you trying to belittle someone just shows your true character, I hope to God your not a Dr. but don't put someone down just because you might know more.
He apparently missed this part that I wrote.
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I never said Addison's was adrenal fatigue, you in fact posted that Addison's was adrenal insuffieniency, I posted those two articles to show that it was not the same thing as you claim. Also, you don't have to give the definition of Addison's.........I already posted it! In case you missed it, here's the link again.
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic42.htm
Addison's is also known as chronic adrenal insufficiency.
So, yes, Addison's is adrenal insufficiency.
Adrenal fatigue is a made up term obtuse trainers like to talk about.
Your reading comprehension is on par with small children, Viriginian mountain men, and trees.
It is quite surreal to be explaining this to someone that is too ignorant to even realize how moronic he is.
Remember, when tying your shoes, the rabbit goes AROUND the tree.
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STFU !
Neurotoxin my man!
Are you familiar with the paradoxical nature of glutamate?
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joeloco, medicine's diagnostic model is wait until it's a full blown disorder.....then put a fancy name on it. subclinical disorders ? haha
complimentary medicine is designed to keep the public out of this HUGE douchebags office. (assuming he's a douchebag "dr")
go through any Merck Manual....lots of "BIG FANCY WORDS" with few cures.
I ETA PI knows a lot.... about nothing. ::)
NT
Of course the most brilliant minds in the world are dead wrong. Surely a few naturopathic idiots with a 6 week training course know best!
Q. What did the naturopathic "doc" get on his MCAT?
A. Drool
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Adrenal fatigue is a made up term obtuse trainers like to talk about.
You obviously have me confused with "trainers" who just count reps and collect their money. The difference between other "trainers" and me is I take my business seriously enough to constantly research ways to continue to help people. You.....well, I don't know what you do, but you sound like a blow hard.
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Of course the most brilliant minds in the world are dead wrong. Surely a few naturopathic idiots with a 6 week training course know best!
Again, you must have me confused with someone who just did a "6 week training course" ::)
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why...can you cure ALS ? (rhetorical question)
NT
No, but I've read "A Brief History of Time" and "the Universe in a Nutshell."
Does that count?
I'm assuming the link with my post on the Glutamate paradox (glutamate as neurotransmitter and neurotoxin) is why you mention ALS.
Are you going to claim that a "hypothesis" is also scientific fact?
Why not make the stretch on the glutamate hypothesis if we're going to make the stretch to giving fairy tale symptoms a "real" disease association?
Perhaps we can cure MS with some eggs and fish oil.....
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Of course the most brilliant minds in the world are dead wrong. Surely a few naturopathic idiots with a 6 week training course know best!
Q. What did the naturopathic "doc" get on his MCAT?
A. Drool
you are ignorant of the schooling naturopathic doctors receive. 4 years, nplexs and 100 000 dollars later is more like it with a undergrad degree preferred.
bastyr is a good school.
you have no idea about anything your talking about.
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Nuerotoxin, you are so right. Im not saying drugs do not have a place, they surely do, but most doctors rely on them so much, not only because they get kickbacks but most don't know how to treat without them. I have NUMEROUS people to either cut back or eliminate meds but from weight reduction and proper food combinations. They got off the meds with their doctors approval of course.
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you are ignorant of the schooling naturopathic doctors receive. 4 years, nplexs and 100 000 dollars later is more like it with a undergrad degree preferred.
bastyr is a good school.
you have no idea about anything your talking about.
Never realized!
Makes 4 years of pre-med, 4 years of med school, 3 years of internal medicine, 3 years of cardiology, and a year of interventional cardiology seem like a cake walk!
Who would have thought?
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Never realized!
Makes 4 years of pre-med, 4 years of med school, 3 years of internal medicine, 3 years of cardiology, and a year of interventional cardiology seem like a cake walk!
Who would have thought?
;D
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The ASA helps prolong the effects (along with caffeine) by lowering prostaglandin production. The combo elevates cAMP levels for a longer period.
ASA can also raise serotonin levels by freeing up L-tryptophan. Serotonin essentially works opposite of the "adrenaline neurotransmitters," but anyone taking MDMA will see that some positive mood correlations can come from elevated production or inhibited re-uptake of the mono-amine neurotransmitters.
I doubt there is any significant digestive issues with the level of stimulation from ECA. Patients are frequently loaded up with various stimulants for ADHD in levels that would raise CA higher than a normal ECA cycle. A decrease in salivation, appetite, and gastric clearance rates may/will be noticed, but anyone in the midst of a contest prep diet will know that leptin/ghrelin eventually trumps all in the end.
"The ASA helps prolong the effects (along with caffeine) by lowering prostaglandin production. The combo elevates cAMP levels for a longer period"
so? PDE inhibition via caffeine and the adenosine agonism via competitve inhibition is not what we are talking about, caffiene has many beneficial properties, as does aspirin, ephderine is not a good drug imo for the stated reasons. Also, they do not elevate cAMP but prevent breakdown similar to licorice preventing coritisol degradation. Your not elevating cellular production but preventing breakdown via PDE. All of the purine alkaloids like theophylline work with this method of action, but why are we talking about that? are you just looking for somewhere to present your subpar knowledge? PDE inhibition is only relevant at high doses, and addition of other methylxanthines might induce more of an effect as the GRAS is actually quite low. One way to increase cAMP is via histiminergic receptors and induction of specific cytokines prevelant in disorders of low cellular cAMP.
again, eppies suck.
"ASA can also raise serotonin levels by freeing up L-tryptophan."
bwhahah if only life where this simple, this would make the user feel tired. Many factors are at play here.
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does modern medicine cure MS ? ::)
NT
No! Which is why we need to switch to lecithin and fatty acid therapy!
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Never realized!
Makes 4 years of pre-med, 4 years of med school, 3 years of internal medicine, 3 years of cardiology, and a year of interventional cardiology seem like a cake walk!
Who would have thought?
ive done 4 years of pre med as would naturopathic doctor, then 4 years of naturopathic med school, then residence for two years, then med school.
are you claiming to be a doctor? i sure hope not. A gp and ND have the same schooling. IF you specialize you have more schooling, just like if you specialize in other fields.
im not discounting MD's, I will be one, im just saying your mockery of ND's is not required, and you should perhaps follow in the footsteps of andrew weil and offer better treatment strategies.
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"The ASA helps prolong the effects (along with caffeine) by lowering prostaglandin production. The combo elevates cAMP levels for a longer period"
so? PDE inhibition via caffeine and the adenosine agonism via competitve inhibition is not what we are talking about, caffiene has many beneficial properties, as does aspirin, ephderine is not a good drug imo for the stated reasons. Also, they do not elevate cAMP but prevent breakdown similar to licorice preventing coritisol degradation. Your not elevating cellular production but preventing breakdown via PDE. All of the purine alkaloids like theophylline work with this method of action, but why are we talking about that? are you just looking for somewhere to present your subpar knowledge? PDE inhibition is only relevant at high doses, and addition of other methylxanthines might induce more of an effect as the GRAS is actually quite low. One way to increase cAMP is via histiminergic receptors and induction of specific cytokines prevelant in disorders of low cellular cAMP.
again, eppies suck.
"ASA can also raise serotonin levels by freeing up L-tryptophan."
bwhahah if only life where this simple, this would make the user feel tired. Many factors are at play here.
Did you say adenosine AGONISM? I didn't feel the need to read after that....
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Did you say adenosine AGONISM? I didn't feel the need to read after that....
competitive inhibition is agonism, your not a doctor obviously. ::)
caffeine and adenosine share a similar structure, hence caf binds to the receptor competitively inhibint adenosine binding and stimulating its actions making it, geuss what, an agonist.
keep googling.
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You would think with all of that education he would be able to carry on any intelligent conversation without name calling. People might listen a little more and learn something, but when he comes off they way he does he instantly loses credibility. I would rather learn from usmokepole, he can teach without putting someone down.
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ive done 4 years of pre med as would naturopathic doctor, then 4 years of naturopathic med school, then residence for two years, then med school.
are you claiming to be a doctor? i sure hope not. A gp and ND have the same schooling. IF you specialize you have more schooling, just like if you specialize in other fields.
im not discounting MD's, I will be one, im just saying your mockery of ND's is not required, and you should perhaps follow in the footsteps of andrew weil and offer better treatment strategies.
It is quite obvious to see you haven't completed med school.
Get back to me after 4 years of brainwashing and the Hippocratic oath, you'll be mocking ND's, talking down to patients, refusing to answer your pager, and making the fellows do all your work just like everyone else.
You must have taken the MCAT if you've finished 4 years of med school.
Don't worry....you no longer need to apply for permission to take the test more than 3 times!
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You would think with all of that education he would be able to carry on any intelligent conversation without name calling. People might listen a little more and learn something, but when he comes off they way he does he instantly loses credibility. I would rather learn from usmokepole, he can teach without putting someone down.
He can teach because you have so much to learn.
An empty mind is like a sponge, it is up to YOU to add the water!
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Never realized!
Makes 4 years of pre-med, 4 years of med school, 3 years of internal medicine, 3 years of cardiology, and a year of interventional cardiology seem like a cake walk!
Who would have thought?
15 years or hard study to come here and get owned by bums - PRICELESS
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It is quite obvious to see you haven't completed med school.
Get back to me after 4 years of brainwashing and the Hippocratic oath, you'll be mocking ND's, talking down to patients, refusing to answer your pager, and making the fellows do all your work just like everyone else.
You must have taken the MCAT if you've finished 4 years of med school.
Don't worry....you no longer need to apply for permission to take the test more than 3 times!
great rebuttal ::) you never responded to anything i said.
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;D
Say what you want about Squad, but he tells it like it is.
Exaggerate your lifts, and you'll be caught.
Put up big numbers, and you'll get respect.
Same thing in this thread.
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competitive inhibition is agonism, your not a doctor obviously. ::)
caffeine and adenosine share a similar structure, hence caf binds to the receptor competitively inhibint adenosine binding and stimulating its actions making it, geuss what, an agonist.
keep googling.
Antagonists have affinity but no efficacy for their receptors and binding will disrupt the interaction and inhibit the function of an agonist or inverse agonist at receptors.
Agonists bind to the receptor and triggers a response.
Binding to a receptor is not agonism unless it triggers a responce in that cell.
At least look this stuff up before you post.
I can just imagine you in Trauma....
"Doc, he's hypotensive!"
"Give him some diovan, that'll get his BP up. It's an Angiotensin II receptor antagonist, so it's really an agonist! Trust me, I know this stuff."
haha
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Dude's on here so much flamming me he must either can't get patients or cant get a job!
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Antagonists have affinity but no efficacy for their receptors and binding will disrupt the interaction and inhibit the function of an agonist or inverse agonist at receptors.
Agonists bind to the receptor and triggers a response.
Binding to a receptor is not agonism unless it triggers a responce in that cell.
At least look this stuff up before you post.
I can just imagine you in Trauma....
"Doc, he's hypotensive!"
"Give him some diovan, that'll get his BP up. It's an Angiotensin II receptor antagonist, so it's really an agonist! Trust me, I know this stuff."
haha
Ok doc, 15 years studying to waste your time here? Are you serios about being a doc?
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Dude's on here so much flamming me he must either can't get patients or cant get a job!
Your grasp of the written word is astounding.
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Ok doc, 15 years studying to waste your time here? Are you serios about being a doc?
Hell no!
I'm a bodybuilder, through and through!
I'm just sitting her living off my girlfriend for now. She knows it's worth it though. Once I go pro and get a big contract, we'll all be on easy street.
I've been trying to get in contact with Ed Connors or Lou Zwick to see if they can help me out.
I've been emailing Irv Gelb about a shoot out in LA after my next show...gonna be a big spread in MuscleMag!
When you love something, you're willing to lay it all on the line for that one moment in the sun...all oiled up, dehydrated, almost naked....knowing your dreams are at your fingertips.
Beverly Nutrition sends me lots of pamphlets, so I know they're looking at sponsoring me. Plus, some guy with a limp named Joe said he was going to make a movie of me as well. I'm on my way baby...like I tell my girlfriend, if bodybuilders got paid for how hard they work, we'd make more than doctors!
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You and Zwick deserve each other!
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Your grasp of the written word is astounding.
lol.
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Oh look, your first patient, if you can help him you can surely cure any disease!!
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It's not adrenal "damage" you have to worry about with prolonged, ongoing, high dose stimulant use. The adrenals will continue to work well, squeezing gluco-corticoid out with every exogenous stressor. This creates a chronic cortisol state and leads to peripheral insulin resistance. This is why many stimulant abusers of very pro-longed duration, who are concomitantly too fearful of weight regain to take drug holidays, are often left dissatisfied with their long term body composition. Mind you they recount superb results when they first began using stimulants, but now some report backsliding.
For astute followers of clinical endocrinology, you will notice that just about all of the stimulant based obesity medications either slow down, stop, or even revert the rate of weight loss they originally proffered. However, this is not because the stimulant has stopped working, quite the contrary the stimulant is still working, and working well-pumping out glucocorticoid that confers positive feedback on the CNS versus the more conventional negative feedback loop most couch scientists are aware of. And therein lies the quandary.
The weight loss dissatisfaction that is at times seen with long term, chronic, high dose users of stimulants that also constantly require dose escalation, is the result of an evolving metabolic millieu that does not favor body composition in the long run. With each dose they take after day #1 they begin traversing towards an insulin resistant state, which unlike the acute insulin resistance one gets from virginal rhGH use, will hamper fat to lean ration. In fact women who began prescription diet pills in the 70's and never took a break, often times show the same emotional, psychiatric, and physiologic signs and symptoms as those who require glucocorticoid therapy such as prednisone for autoimmune disorders. Even some homology can be drawn, albeit less patently with Cushing's.
Note all of the above specifically addresses those who 1) take stimulants for years and years 2) take ever increasing doses 3) never take drug holidays. Of course, this can all be obviated with judicious dosing, but more importantly, conservative frequency of use.
Now, if there were only some way to throw out the bath water without the baby...
I have heard this before and you could very well be right (have you posted on other boards under a different name?). However, do you have some hard data showing these negative bodycomposition changes in long term stimulant users?
What is the difference between acute and chronic insulin resistance you mention? Why does the insulin resistance from GH make you leaner but insulin resistance from stimulants eventually make you fatter?
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Antagonists have affinity but no efficacy for their receptors and binding will disrupt the interaction and inhibit the function of an agonist or inverse agonist at receptors.
Agonists bind to the receptor and triggers a response.
Binding to a receptor is not agonism unless it triggers a responce in that cell.
At least look this stuff up before you post.
I can just imagine you in Trauma....
"Doc, he's hypotensive!"
"Give him some diovan, that'll get his BP up. It's an Angiotensin II receptor antagonist, so it's really an agonist! Trust me, I know this stuff."
haha
your description of agonism fits caffeines adenosine receptor activation and your description of antogonists is plain wrong.
"Agonists bind to the receptor and triggers a response. "
what would you consider an adenosinemimetic then?
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You and Zwick deserve each other!
Sarcasm, my cerebral deprived friend.
Written sarcasm is a bit harder to detect than spoken sarcasm, but that is not your fault. Those with reading disabilities often learn to cope through better recognition of tone inflection and body language.
If you believe in your heart that you can improve your reading comprehension, then I believe you can too.
I'm going to be with you all the way, from day one. Let's tackle this disabilty once and for all!
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That was actually pretty funny EPT1
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your description of agonism fits caffeines adenosine receptor activation and your description of antogonists is plain wrong.
"Agonists bind to the receptor and triggers a response. "
what would you consider an adenosinemimetic then?
Do you know what adenosine does?
I'll help you out....
Adenosine is a "sleepy sleepy" receptor. One of its clinical uses is for rhythm identification in SVT. It can even cause heart block.
Now....are you saying that Caffeine ACTIVATES a recptor that SLOWS the heart down?
Are you also then saying that caffeine is a VASODILATOR?
Because that is what agonism of adenosine receptor causes.
Do you also fuck for virginity?
I'd consider adenosinemimetic gibberish. If you want to write a word belonging to the 256,000 some in the English language, I'll gladly give you my thoughts.
If you mean sympathomimetic, there is no longer a reason for me to respond to you as your grasp of receptor biomechanics doesn't deserve response.
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Do you know what adenosine does?
I'll help you out....
Adenosine is a "sleepy sleepy" receptor. One of its clinical uses is for rhythm identification in SVT. It can even cause heart block.
Now....are you saying that Caffeine ACTIVATES a recptor that SLOWS the heart down?
Are you also then saying that caffeine is a VASODILATOR?
Because that is what agonism of adenosine receptor causes.
Do you also fuck for virginity?
I'd consider adenosinemimetic gibberish. If you want to write a word belonging to the 256,000 some in the English language, I'll gladly give you my thoughts.
If you mean sympathomimetic, there is no longer a reason for me to respond to you as your grasp of receptor biomechanics doesn't deserve response.
yes by competitively inhibiting adenosine from reaching the receptor caffeine causes its stimulating effects along with PDE inhibition which increases cAMP. Yes caffeine is a sympathomimetic.
i also dont beleive your a doctor. cardiology you say?
you should be able to tell me two major differences between fetal circulation versus circulation at birth,in the heart.
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dont take to long :D
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also i would just like to point out that A2A inhibition is the main reason for stimulation from methylxanthines.
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triple post meltdown, oh brother.
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triple post meltdown, oh brother.
:-*
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funny thing is he is still online but cannot answer this simple question which has obvious answers.
his understanding of every talked about in this thread is nothing you couldnt find via google, I will admit that i was off base with competitive inhibition as it doesnt agonise but increases sympathetic tone via lack of adenosine, so its not agonism in a sense.
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*CRICKETS*
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yes and if you did that you would end up doing it 3-4 times a day
you cannot fuck around with cocaine like that. if your gonna do it you shouldnt use it before a workout...youll en up using it every workout. and you should only use it occasionally on the weekends, and make sure to have some weed available for the come down.. or else youll be sad as fuck and desperate for more coke..
trust me. i thought the exact same thing you did. and i did exactly what you said you would do.
Thanks for the advice, hearing your story i will stay away from the shit. 8)
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Or, one could just avoid coke altogether.
if you have the junkie/addict in your blood - if you have blood relatives who are addicts, or if you are easily addicted to work, sex, other things... you might find out ya cannot just use recreationally.
I'm no expert - I've never touched tobacco, weed, or any drug, but there are a lot of junkies in my family. I've seen my little cousins up north grow from good little kids to straight junkies because it's just in their blood, the addict. they try coke in college like many kids do, and they just keep doing it. Others have the ability to just put it down when it's time to get back to work/school on monday. Some families don't.
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Or, one could just avoid coke altogether.
if you have the junkie/addict in your blood - if you have blood relatives who are addicts, or if you are easily addicted to work, sex, other things... you might find out ya cannot just use recreationally.
I'm no expert - I've never touched tobacco, weed, or any drug, but there are a lot of junkies in my family. I've seen my little cousins up north grow from good little kids to straight junkies because it's just in their blood, the addict. they try coke in college like many kids do, and they just keep doing it. Others have the ability to just put it down when it's time to get back to work/school on monday. Some families don't.
good post, anyone who has addiction in their families has a responsibilty to themselves to avoid excess use of any drugs or alcohol. Once its triggered you're fucked.
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good post, anyone who has addiction in their families has a responsibilty to themselves to avoid excess use of any drugs or alcohol. Once its triggered you're fucked.
Should one with such relatives avoid ever even trying alcohol? 'Cause it's triggered immediately once you feel the effects of the drug IMO. I've heard alcoholics say they were "addicted" from the first time they touched the stuff. But then it's sort of unreasonable to expect people to never even try drinking a few beers. It's like you're fucked whatever you do if you have the predisposition.
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Should one with such relatives avoid ever even trying alcohol? 'Cause it's triggered immediately once you feel the effects of the drug IMO. I've heard alcoholics say they were "addicted" from the first time they touched the stuff. But then it's sort of unreasonable to expect people to never even try drinking a few beers. It's like you're fucked whatever you do if you have the predisposition.
I'm going to get blasted for this and knowing most of the people on here, what I am about to say they will hold against me (just like they do my past marriages without knowing the circumstances of course) but if it will help someone else, so be it.
I don't know anyone in my family that was an addict and since there are so many different definitions of an "alcoholic" I wasn't sure what the definition of an alcoholic was. My addiction started when I was about 18 when coke was introduced to me from the owner of the gym I was training at, after that I was hooked. I never had a problem with alcohol, it was basically used to help come down after my coke high, same thing when I switched from coke to speed (to help make weight for shows) because I was able to function with little sleep.
I don't know where or from whom my addictive personality came from but I do know that I have one. I have been clean for about 17-18 years but I can have a drink or two without being an alcoholic. Does this make sense?
Believe it or not, I was (am) a counselor at my church and have delt with this quite a bit.
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I'm going to get blasted for this and knowing most of the people on here, what I am about to say they will hold against me (just like they do my past marriages without knowing the circumstances of course) but if it will help someone else, so be it.
I don't know anyone in my family that was an addict and since there are so many different definitions of an "alcoholic" I wasn't sure what the definition of an alcoholic was. My addiction started when I was about 18 when coke was introduced to me from the owner of the gym I was training at, after that I was hooked. I never had a problem with alcohol, it was basically used to help come down after my coke high, same thing when I switched from coke to speed (to help make weight for shows) because I was able to function with little sleep.
I don't know where or from whom my addictive personality came from but I do know that I have one. I have been clean for about 17-18 years but I can have a drink or two without being an alcoholic. Does this make sense?
Believe it or not, I was (am) a counselor at my church and have delt with this quite a bit.
I wouldn't blast you. I guess it's possible to be able to use one drug responsibly but not some other drugs.
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I wouldn't blast you. I guess it's possible to be able to use one drug responsibly but not some other drugs.
I believe using coke or speed is irresponsible, it just took me a while to figure it out. Thank God I never had to go into rehab or hit rock bottom, it took me a while to kick, I relapsed about 3-4 times and during those times I knew it was of course wrong and regretted everytime I relapsed. It was a friend of mine who basically saved me, some local oldies on here might know him, his name is Jimmy Flood, won a ton of Masters BBing shows and a former Ironworker who was also an addict. I owe my sobriety to him.
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you may think you're getting bigger because you're more energetic in the gym but it's making you skinnier and weaker, discuss. ;D
Ephedrine can be converted into methamphetamine by reducing it with Lithium metal and Sodium. Or if you want the racemate, by reductively alkylating via catalytic hydrogenation phenylpropanone and methylamine with Platinum oxide.
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I believe using coke or speed is irresponsible, it just took me a while to figure it out. Thank God I never had to go into rehab or hit rock bottom, it took me a while to kick, I relapsed about 3-4 times and during those times I knew it was of course wrong and regretted everytime I relapsed. It was a friend of mine who basically saved me, some local oldies on here might know him, his name is Jimmy Flood, won a ton of Masters BBing shows and a former Ironworker who was also an addict. I owe my sobriety to him.
i definitely could not have stopped on my own. thankfully i had quality counselors and a good family of guys in there with me....or else i most likely would have relapsed too.
i have smoked weed since then, and i have done mushrooms, but i havent touched cocaine or ecstacy..and those are things i gotta watch out for. anything that makes me feel good and alieves my social anxiety, those things are what i get hooked on
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Should one with such relatives avoid ever even trying alcohol? 'Cause it's triggered immediately once you feel the effects of the drug IMO. I've heard alcoholics say they were "addicted" from the first time they touched the stuff. But then it's sort of unreasonable to expect people to never even try drinking a few beers. It's like you're fucked whatever you do if you have the predisposition.
I dont think so, it also depends on other pysch issues, but I dont think you can get hooked the first time...There is an actress on tv, no point in mentioning her name here, but both her parents were serious alcholics and she knew as a young girl she probably had the gene, So she limits herself to two drinks at social occasion, she has never become addicted and has a hit show on tv, kids and a good marraige. So yea I think it is possible if you are smart.
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I believe using coke or speed is irresponsible,
Irresponsible, yes. But because you do coke or speed and not one thing like heroin (or did you try others once or twice?) and such, does not make you have an addictive personality.
Like many things, having an addictive personality has different degrees. You could drink one or two beers and have no problem. But you got hooked on coke. Myself, I've had a few binges while out touring on the road, but stopped once I saw (for me) there was no point or fun to it. I was able to do it and stop-much like you and drinking. Other people I've seen get addicted to anything and everything they touch. Be it bike riding, playing music, weights, drugs or any combination of the above.
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I'm going to get blasted for this and knowing most of the people on here, what I am about to say they will hold against me (just like they do my past marriages without knowing the circumstances of course) but if it will help someone else, so be it.
I don't know anyone in my family that was an addict and since there are so many different definitions of an "alcoholic" I wasn't sure what the definition of an alcoholic was. My addiction started when I was about 18 when coke was introduced to me from the owner of the gym I was training at, after that I was hooked. I never had a problem with alcohol, it was basically used to help come down after my coke high, same thing when I switched from coke to speed (to help make weight for shows) because I was able to function with little sleep.
I don't know where or from whom my addictive personality came from but I do know that I have one. I have been clean for about 17-18 years but I can have a drink or two without being an alcoholic. Does this make sense?
Believe it or not, I was (am) a counselor at my church and have delt with this quite a bit.
that is really brave of you to post Coach, you will probably get flamed but I think if it helps someone out there then it is worth it.
I never realized how pervasive alcoholism is, but its everywhere, anyone you think is, probably is. Just because someone can work and function while boozing doesnt mean they are not addicted. It is a dangerous line but some people manage to live entire lives as functioning alcoholics...ie Ted Kennedy. For those types its usually the family that suffers the consequences.
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Irresponsible, yes. But because you do coke or speed and not one thing like heroin (or did you try others once or twice?) and such, does not make you have an addictive personality.
Like many things, having an addictive personality has different degrees. You could drink one or two beers and have no problem. But you got hooked on coke. Myself, I've had a few binges while out touring on the road, but stopped once I saw (for me) there was no point or fun to it. I was able to do it and stop-much like you and drinking. Other people I've seen get addicted to anything and everything they touch. Be it bike riding, playing music, weights, drugs or any combination of the above.
Nope, only coke and speed, tried mushrooms once, didn't like it, same with weed, didn't like it as well. I do know that when I find something I like I get hyperfocused and don't let anything get in my way from doing it. Now, aside from my family, I'm super focused on golf and my business (to pay for my golf habit ;D) something I can't explain, right now everything is about golf. Last week my wife wrote on a sticky "your obsessed with golf" and left it on my computer. The good news is my wife, son and me all play together on the weekends 8)
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Someone has prostate problem with ephedrine??
Afriend of me has a swelling prostate with ephedrine
bea
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Ephedrine is for who is too much lazy to go through a strict diet!! ;) Considering the advantages and disavantages of ephedrine use, I would prefer to get some winny instead!
Yeah, because ephedrine wont work with a good strict diet right? ::)
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i definitely could not have stopped on my own. thankfully i had quality counselors and a good family of guys in there with me....or else i most likely would have relapsed too.
i have smoked weed since then, and i have done mushrooms, but i havent touched cocaine or ecstacy..and those are things i gotta watch out for. anything that makes me feel good and alieves my social anxiety, those things are what i get hooked on
If your smoking weed and doing mushrooms your still using, and will eventually revert to your drug of choice. You better be careful.
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Should one with such relatives avoid ever even trying alcohol? 'Cause it's triggered immediately once you feel the effects of the drug IMO. I've heard alcoholics say they were "addicted" from the first time they touched the stuff. But then it's sort of unreasonable to expect people to never even try drinking a few beers. It's like you're fucked whatever you do if you have the predisposition.
Alcoholism and addiction is a disease. Some people have it some dont. People from the same family can be fine, while other family members have horribly addictive personalities.
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I am ephedrine. Discuss.
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you may think you're getting bigger because you're more energetic in the gym but it's making you skinnier and weaker, discuss. ;D
Nice Revelation. I never used Ephedrine until I was ready to diet down for a show. Anyone using it before that is wasting time.