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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Dos Equis on August 22, 2009, 11:36:25 AM
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Sure sounds like it.
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Pro abortion groups want taxpayers to pay for abortions.
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White House refuses to rule it out:
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I'd be fine if they took the entire budget for the office of faith based initiatives and used it specifically to pay for abortions
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Good discussion by Rep. Pitts:
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last time I checked abortions were still considered a medical procedure
I am against tax dollars being used to fund exorcisms
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Hmmmm. I smell dishonesty . . . .
Is Obama lying about government funding of abortion?
By: BARBARA HOLLINGSWORTH
Local Opinion Editor
08/21/09 4:31 PM EDT
In a Wednesday conference call with health care reform supporters, President Barack Obama called “untrue” and “a fabrication” charges that the White House-backed legislation would result in “government funding of abortions.”
But Douglas Johnson, legislative director for the National Right to Life Committee, says it was Obama who “brazenly misrepresented the abortion-related component of the health care legislation that his congressional allies and staff have crafted.”
“As amended by the House Energy and Commerce Committee on July 30 (the Capps-Waxman Amendment), the bill backed by the White House (H.R. 3200) explicitly authorizes the government plan to cover all elective abortions,” Johnson said. “Obama apparently seeks to hide behind a technical distinction between tax funds and government-collected premiums. But these are merely two types of public funds, collected and spent by government agencies.
“The Obama-backed legislation makes it explicitly clear that no citizen would be allowed to enroll in the government plan unless he or she is willing to give the federal agency an extra amount calculated to cover the cost of all elective abortions - this would not be optional. The abortionists would bill the federal government and would be paid by the federal government. These are public funds, and this is government funding of abortion.”
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Is-Obama-lying-about-government-funding-of-abortion-53965722.html
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Hmmmm. I smell dishonesty . . . .
Is Obama lying about government funding of abortion?
By: BARBARA HOLLINGSWORTH
Local Opinion Editor
08/21/09 4:31 PM EDT
In a Wednesday conference call with health care reform supporters, President Barack Obama called “untrue” and “a fabrication” charges that the White House-backed legislation would result in “government funding of abortions.”
But Douglas Johnson, legislative director for the National Right to Life Committee, says it was Obama who “brazenly misrepresented the abortion-related component of the health care legislation that his congressional allies and staff have crafted.”
“As amended by the House Energy and Commerce Committee on July 30 (the Capps-Waxman Amendment), the bill backed by the White House (H.R. 3200) explicitly authorizes the government plan to cover all elective abortions,” Johnson said. “Obama apparently seeks to hide behind a technical distinction between tax funds and government-collected premiums. But these are merely two types of public funds, collected and spent by government agencies.
“The Obama-backed legislation makes it explicitly clear that no citizen would be allowed to enroll in the government plan unless he or she is willing to give the federal agency an extra amount calculated to cover the cost of all elective abortions - this would not be optional. The abortionists would bill the federal government and would be paid by the federal government. These are public funds, and this is government funding of abortion.”
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Is-Obama-lying-about-government-funding-of-abortion-53965722.html
I don't see the problem.
Don't health insurance companies cover abortions in some circumstances now. Do you think the $ you pay in premium goes to pay only for your healthcare? Of course not. It goes into the pot and is used to pay for whatever health care expense that the insurance company is forced to pay when they can't first find a way to deny coverage.
I see no problem here at all
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I don't see the problem.
Don't health insurance companies cover abortions in some circumstances now. Do you think the $ you pay in premium goes to pay only for your healthcare? Of course not. It goes into the pot and is used to pay for whatever health care expense that the insurance company is forced to pay when they can't first find a way to deny coverage.
I see no problem here at all
Most current Private Plans (about 90 percent of them) cover abortions entirely, yet you won`t see these morons boycotting, questioning,discussing or even dropping their plan even though abortion is covered. They also have no qualms with their employer purchasing such plans.
It really boils down to pure ignorance.
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Most current Private Plans (about 90 percent of them) cover abortions entirely, yet you won`t see these morons boycotting, questioning,discussing or even dropping their plan even though abortion is covered. They also have no qualms with their employer purchasing such plans.
It really boils down to pure ignorance.
so you're suggesting that Bum could be paying into a plan right now that uses his premium dollars to pay for abortions?
I'm sure if this is true that Bum will do the honorable and consistent thing and immediately drop his health insurance.
He lives in Hawaii and from a report that I've read recently there are only 2 companies that control 98% of the market so he has an abundance of other options to choose from.
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He lied to the Pope? :o
Obama misled Pope on abortion, the president's healthcare hidden agenda
July 21, 3:23 PM
Manchester Faith & Culture Examiner
Dyan Puma
From rationing surgery and medicine to redistributing and raising your tax dollars for abortion, Obama's nationalized healthcare is bad for America. While Obama continues to reject the GOP's valid claim that his bill will cost Americans more for less coverage – and not just on services but coverage for millions of families the billion-turned-trillion dollar budget can’t afford – additional issues are surfacing and the deeply felt cost of this unsustainable and massive medical welfare program will be the large loss of human lives.
"In remarks on the House floor last week, Congressman Chris Smith argued that President Obama purposely misled Pope Benedict XVI when he said that he “wants to reduce abortion” at their July 10 meeting." This is according to a recent CNA article, which follows in full text.
"Smith recalled the president's statement to the Pope and pointed out that Obama has repeated it several times to different audiences. And yet, Smith charged, Obama’s actions have not aligned with his words. “He says one thing and does precisely the opposite.”
"Now, the New Jersey Congressman said, Obama is offering a plan for health care reform that is a thinly veiled attempt to increase access to abortion on demand. The plan would increase funding for abortions and allow abortion services to be considered part of “basic health care” required by all insurance plans, including private plans.
"Smith pointed to information from the Guttmacher Institute, which has stated that “when taxpayer funding is not available, between 20 and 35 percent of Medicaid abortions that would have been procured simply don't occur.”
"These children go on to be born, he explained, referencing the millions of children throughout the country who are able to live their own lives and pursue their own hopes and dreams “because taxpayer subsidies didn't effectuate their demise.”
“The ugly truth is that if his so-called health care reform care bill, if enacted, will lead to millions of additional deaths to children and millions of mothers will be wounded,” Smith said.
"Rep. Smith concluded his remarks by encouraging his fellow congressmen to vote against the health care bill and insisting that “[t]here will be children who will die if this legislation becomes law simply because the subsidies are there to effectuate their deaths.”
http://www.examiner.com/x-11053-Manchester-Faith--Culture-Examiner~y2009m7d21-Obama-misled-Pope-on-abortion-the-presidents-healthcare-hidden-agenda
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He lied to the Pope? :o
Obama misled Pope on abortion, the president's healthcare hidden agenda
July 21, 3:23 PM
Manchester Faith & Culture Examiner
Dyan Puma
From rationing surgery and medicine to redistributing and raising your tax dollars for abortion, Obama's nationalized healthcare is bad for America. While Obama continues to reject the GOP's valid claim that his bill will cost Americans more for less coverage – and not just on services but coverage for millions of families the billion-turned-trillion dollar budget can’t afford – additional issues are surfacing and the deeply felt cost of this unsustainable and massive medical welfare program will be the large loss of human lives.
"In remarks on the House floor last week, Congressman Chris Smith argued that President Obama purposely misled Pope Benedict XVI when he said that he “wants to reduce abortion” at their July 10 meeting." This is according to a recent CNA article, which follows in full text.
"Smith recalled the president's statement to the Pope and pointed out that Obama has repeated it several times to different audiences. And yet, Smith charged, Obama’s actions have not aligned with his words. “He says one thing and does precisely the opposite.”
"Now, the New Jersey Congressman said, Obama is offering a plan for health care reform that is a thinly veiled attempt to increase access to abortion on demand. The plan would increase funding for abortions and allow abortion services to be considered part of “basic health care” required by all insurance plans, including private plans.
"Smith pointed to information from the Guttmacher Institute, which has stated that “when taxpayer funding is not available, between 20 and 35 percent of Medicaid abortions that would have been procured simply don't occur.”
"These children go on to be born, he explained, referencing the millions of children throughout the country who are able to live their own lives and pursue their own hopes and dreams “because taxpayer subsidies didn't effectuate their demise.”
“The ugly truth is that if his so-called health care reform care bill, if enacted, will lead to millions of additional deaths to children and millions of mothers will be wounded,” Smith said.
"Rep. Smith concluded his remarks by encouraging his fellow congressmen to vote against the health care bill and insisting that “[t]here will be children who will die if this legislation becomes law simply because the subsidies are there to effectuate their deaths.”
http://www.examiner.com/x-11053-Manchester-Faith--Culture-Examiner~y2009m7d21-Obama-misled-Pope-on-abortion-the-presidents-healthcare-hidden-agenda
where is the lie?
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Beach Bum,
Just curious where the line is drawn in this. If your argument is people who don't support abortion should not have to pay for it, then does that mean people who don't support medical care at all (ex: religions that advocate "faith-based healing") should not have to pay taxes for medicaid and medicare?
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Beach Bum,
Just curious where the line is drawn in this. If your argument is people who don't support abortion should not have to pay for it, then does that mean people who don't support medical care at all (ex: religions that advocate "faith-based healing") should not have to pay taxes for medicaid and medicare?
Skip I wasn't making an argument. I asked a question (Is Obama being dishonest about abortion being a part of healthcare reform). Absolutely sounds like it is and that he is just flat out lying about it. Pretty bold. I hope someone holds him accountable.
Regarding your question (which wasn't an argument I've made), I'm not quite sure what you mean. The Hyde Amendment already precludes taxpayer funded abortions for Medicaid.
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Skip I wasn't making an argument. I asked a question (Is Obama being dishonest about abortion being a part of healthcare reform). Absolutely sounds like it is and that he is just flat out lying about it. Pretty bold. I hope someone holds him accountable.
Regarding your question (which wasn't an argument I've made), I'm not quite sure what you mean. The Hyde Amendment already precludes taxpayer funded abortions for Medicaid.
If that's not the argument you're making, then fair enough. It just appeared to me that way and I stand corrected.
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If that's not the argument you're making, then fair enough. It just appeared to me that way and I stand corrected.
No problem. But just to be clear, I do not support taxpayer funded abortions, even though we already have them by subsidizing the abortion mill called Planned Parenthood.
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No problem. But just to be clear, I do not support taxpayer funded abortions, even though we already have them by subsidizing the abortion mill called Planned Parenthood.
Well I guess that's the reasoning I'm trying to follow. Let's put the current law on the side right now. Most objection to tax payer funded abortion that I know of is based on people's religous beliefs against abortion. So I'm trying to follow where a person would draw the line. It would seem to me to follow that people who object to medical care all together (faith based healers) would not want their tax money going towards medicaid and medicare. It seems in one case the religous views of people are important and they should not have to fund abortion, but in the other, it's basically fuck your beliefs, you're going to pay into medicare/medicaid. Where's the line?
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Skip I wasn't making an argument. I asked a question (Is Obama being dishonest about abortion being a part of healthcare reform). Absolutely sounds like it is and that he is just flat out lying about it. Pretty bold. I hope someone holds him accountable.
Regarding your question (which wasn't an argument I've made), I'm not quite sure what you mean. The Hyde Amendment already precludes taxpayer funded abortions for Medicaid.
where is the lie?
Obama told the pope he wants to reduce abortions
He can want to reduce abortions while still making sure that health care reforms includes access to abortion (a legitimate medical procedure)
The two are not mutually exclusive
Just more hysteria and misreprensentation from the anti-abortion crowd to rile up their sheeple
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plastic surgery is a legit medical procedure as well but its an ELECTIVE procedure same as the majority of abortions straw. Should we cover tit jobs as well?
As much as obama ran on us gaining the moral high ground yada yada yada he sure seems to take the morality out of the abortion issue doesnt he?
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plastic surgery is a legit medical procedure as well but its an ELECTIVE procedure same as the majority of abortions straw. Should we cover tit jobs as well?
As much as obama ran on us gaining the moral high ground yada yada yada he sure seems to take the morality out of the abortion issue doesnt he?
many abortions are not merely elective but are for legitimate medical purposes.
The idea that Obama lied about wanting to reduce abortion (if that is actually the alleged lie that the article is referring to) doesn't hold water for me.
As much as fundies and other dim-witted people would prefer (not referring to you), the world is not black and white.
One can certainly want to reduce abortions while at the same time making sure that women who need (or even want) abortions have access to the procedure.
Obama can reduce abortions by increasing valid sex education, making condoms available, making adoptions a more viable/popular option, etc...
btw - I can think of worse uses of my tax dollars than breast augmentation surgery (then again I'm a fan of the small and medium sized titties too - natural is always best IMO)
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many abortions are not merely elective but are for legitimate medical purposes.
As much as fundies and other dim-witted people would prefer (not referring to you), the world is not black and white.
btw - I can think of worse uses of my tax dollars than breast augmentation surgery (then again I'm a fan of the small and medium sized titties too - natural is always best IMO)
LOL no doubt I cant say you would have to twist my arm to much to get me on board with that ;D
I agree straw many abortions are for legitimate medical reasons but the majority are not.
Why should the tax payer pay for abortions that are elective?
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LOL no doubt I cant say you would have to twist my arm to much to get me on board with that ;D
I agree straw many abortions are for legitimate medical reasons but the majority are not.
Why should the tax payer pay for abortions that are elective?
I'm not saying "taxpayers" should.
If we have a national health care system then it should provide the same access to medical procedures that any health plan does ....or more (hopefully).
The abortion issue is a smoke screen to keep people distracted from the larger issue.
People who are dying because they can't get health care aren't worrying about abortion
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I'm not saying "taxpayers" should.
If we have a national health care system then it should provide the same access to medical procedures that any health plan does ....or more (hopefully).
The abortion issue is a smoke screen to keep people distracted from the larger issue.
People who are dying because they can't get health care aren't worrying about abortion
THAT IS NOT THE LARGER ISSUE...
the issue is the problem with our current health care system, the fact that their are ppl out their without insurance is another SEPERATE PROBLEM...
The whole situation is fairly ironic to me obama trying to use the moral BS to say that we should give health care to all but then being ok with abortion... ::)
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THAT IS NOT THE LARGER ISSUE...
the issue is the problem with our current health care system, the fact that their are ppl out their without insurance is another SEPERATE PROBLEM...
The whole situation is fairly ironic to me obama trying to use the moral BS to say that we should give health care to all but then being ok with abortion... ::)
lack of healthcare, unfair practices by health insurance companies, sky-rocketing costs...... That's 99% of the issue.
bullshit about abortions is just chaff for the stupid people to chase so they don't think about the real issue
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lack of healthcare, unfair practices by health insurance companies, sky-rocketing costs...... That's 99% of the issue.
bullshit about abortions is just chaff for the stupid people to chase so they don't think about the real issue
this is your problem straw youre falling for the bull shit agenda obama is pushing
weve already gone over this but you STILL refuse to acknowledge and try and push them as part of the same problem.
THEY ARE 2 SEPERATE PROBLEMS!!!
The real issue is the problem with the health care system we currently have for the ppl who actually pay for health care not that there are ppl out there without health care even though there are viable options out there for them...
quit spouting obama/msnbc talking points and think for you fuking self.
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Why should the tax payer pay for abortions that are elective?
Angioplasty is an elective surgery too. Should medicare stop covering that?
And I'm also on board for free breast augementations! :D
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this is your problem straw youre falling for the bull shit agenda obama is pushing
weve already gone over this but you STILL refuse to acknowledge and try and push them as part of the same problem.
THEY ARE 2 SEPERATE PROBLEMS!!!
The real issue is the problem with the health care system we currently have for the ppl who actually pay for health care not that there are ppl out there without health care even though there are viable options out there for them...
quit spouting obama/msnbc talking points and think for you fuking self.
people without insurance or health care and people with insurance who either can't afford to use it or get denied coverage by their provider are all part of the same larger problem.
abortion is not on my radar screen at all.
It's a distraction for people to chase so they won't pay attention to the real problem
I wasn't aware you watched MSNBC but I have no clue what talking points you think you're seeing in my posts
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Angioplasty is an elective surgery too. Should medicare stop covering that?
And I'm also on board for free breast augementations! :D
I'm only in favor if I get to be on the "panel" that decides.
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Angioplasty is an elective surgery too. Should medicare stop covering that?
And I'm also on board for free breast augementations! :D
technically every surgery could be deemed elective but "elective" in this sense is meant to denote a procedure that is not medically beneficial I would say.
Angioplasty does serve a medical purpose, what purpose does an elective abortion serve?
again whats the difference between paying for abortions and say paying for lipo?
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technically every surgery could be deemed elective but "elective" in this sense is meant to denote a procedure that is not medically beneficial I would say.
Angioplasty does serve a medical purpose, what purpose does an elective abortion serve?
again whats the difference between paying for abortions and say paying for lipo?
you really want to stay distracted don't you?
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people without insurance or health care and people with insurance who either can't afford to use it or get denied coverage by their provider are all part of the same larger problem.
I wasn't aware you watched MSNBC but I have no clue what talking points you think you're seeing in my posts
There are options out there straw, yea i know you have to deal with the beurocratic mess that is govt but there are options
what larger problem would that be?
you seem to roll both problems into one without acknowledging that you can address one without addressing the other just like obama does and msnbc as well.
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you really want to stay distracted don't you?
this is what this thread is about weve gone up one side and down the other with this health care bs
you know the 2 seperate problems can be addressed you guessed it SEPERATLY thats where I stand
Sorry bro I dont feel like helping those who wont help themselves I know its a cooky concept but I like to keep the money I earn. Youve got a big heart I admire that but there are ppl out there that will take advantage of you just as they are now.
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this is what this thread is about weve gone up one side and down the other with this health care bs
you know the 2 seperate problems can be addressed you guessed it SEPERATLY thats where I stand
Sorry bro I dont feel like helping those who wont help themselves I know its a cooky concept but I like to keep the money I earn. Youve got a big heart I admire that but there are ppl out there that will take advantage of you just as they are now.
scroll back and you'll notice that I've already commented that I don't think Obama is being dishonest about abortion.
Everything else has just been the typical GetBig merry-go-round
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scroll back and you'll notice that I've already commented that I don't think Obama is being dishonest about abortion.
Everything else has just been the typical GetBig merry-go-round
you also said that abortion was a non issue that was meant to keep "stupid" ppl distracted. That comment had nothing to do with whether or not he was being dishonest.
Some ppl are actually against abortion straw and seeing as it is in the MAJORITY of cases elective the idea that it shouldnt be funded by those who are against it is a legit concern.
do you not find it ironic and funny straw that obama tries to push health care for all by appealing to morals and yet is ok with ppl shirking their responsibility to others and abortion?
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you also said that abortion was a non issue that was meant to keep "stupid" ppl distracted. That comment had nothing to do with whether or not he was being dishonest.
Some ppl are actually against abortion straw and seeing as it is in the MAJORITY of cases elective the idea that it shouldnt be funded by those who are against it is a legit concern.
do you not find it ironic and funny straw that obama tries to push health care for all by appealing to morals and yet is ok with ppl shirking their responsibility to others and abortion?
Yes, that is what I said and I was referring ( and I assumed you understand) in the CONTEXT of the debate of about health care reform.
In that context, the fake hysteria that somehow your health insurance premium is going to pay for an abortion is a smoke screen to keep people ginned up about an emotional issue (for them) and maybe even to attach some of that emotion to the opposition to health care reform.
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Yes, that is what I said and I was referring ( and I assumed you understand) in the CONTEXT of the debate of about health care reform.
In that context, the fake hysteria that somehow your health insurance premium is going to pay for an abortion is a smoke screen to keep people ginned up about an emotional issue (for them) and maybe even to attach some of that emotion to the opposition to health care reform.
do you not think that if somebody is against abortion that there is a legitimate concern there?
problem is straw simply b/c you dont see this as a legit issue doesnt mean its not a legit issue for anybody.
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do you not think that if somebody is against abortion that there is a legitimate concern there?
problem is straw simply b/c you dont see this as a legit issue doesnt mean its not a legit issue for anybody.
sure but if that's your issue then please call your insurance company tomorrow and check and see if they cover abortions
If so, I assume you'll be cancelling your insurance
btw - I thought the issue was about Obama being dishonest and not abortion in general.
for the record, I don't think he's being dishonest and I think the hair splitting on the right is to distract people, gin up emotion and then redirect that emotion to opposing health care reform
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technically every surgery could be deemed elective but "elective" in this sense is meant to denote a procedure that is not medically beneficial I would say.
Angioplasty does serve a medical purpose, what purpose does an elective abortion serve?
again whats the difference between paying for abortions and say paying for lipo?
I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out Tony. Where's the line in deciding what should be covered and what shouldn't. You can easily argue that fat removal is medically beneficial, etc. Picking and choosing what should be covered vs what shouldn't be covered just seems to me to be an exercise in futility.
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I'm only in favor if I get to be on the "panel" that decides.
OK, but you've got to evaluate the fat and ugly ones too.
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OK, but you've got to evaluate the fat and ugly ones too.
why would fat ugly girls need breast implants ???
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Some ppl are actually against abortion straw and seeing as it is in the MAJORITY of cases elective the idea that it shouldnt be funded by those who are against it is a legit concern.
So I'll ask you my question to BB. Should people who believe in faith-based healing be allowed to stop paying for Medicaid and Medicare?
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why would fat ugly girls need breast implants ???
To impress the chubby chasers.
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To impress the chubby chasers.
well since money is tight I think we'd have to set some basic standard and ration the boob jobs only for good looking girls with low self esteem
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sure but if that's your issue then please call your insurance company tomorrow and check and see if they cover abortions
If so, I assume you'll be cancelling your insurance
btw - I thought the issue was about Obama being dishonest and not abortion in general.
for the record, I don't think he's being dishonest and I think the hair splitting on the right is to distract people, gin up emotion and then redirect that emotion to opposing health care reform
it originally was but again your comment caused this to decend into what it has.
whether private insurance companies do or not isnt the question perhaps we should research everybody in the company and refuse to use them if someone is pro choice b/c we technically pay their salary? ::)
we are not technically paying for abortions even if the insurance company pays for them we are paying for a service in the terms of insurance for ourselves and only ourselves. Taxes payed by us would go to fund those who dont pay taxes or pay less taxes health care under obama liberal agenda that you seem to be falling for so why should we not get a say in what we are paying for?
Horrible and ignorant arguement straw
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it originally was but again your comment caused this to decend into what it has.
whether private insurance companies do or not isnt the question perhaps we should research everybody in the company and refuse to use them if someone is pro choice b/c we technically pay their salary? ::)
we are not technically paying for abortions even if the insurance company pays for them we are paying for a service in the terms of insurance for ourselves and only ourselves. Taxes payed by us would go to fund those who dont pay taxes or pay less taxes health care under obama liberal agenda that you seem to be falling for so why should we not get a say in what we are paying for?
Horrible and ignorant arguement straw
great point - I'm opposed to the war in Iraq and the office of Faith Based Initiatives (just to name a couple of things).
I find both of those to be much more offensive than whether some woman I don't know chooses to have an abortion.
shouldn't I get to choose that MY tax dollars not be used for either of those things
btw - doesn't the Hyde ammendment prevent tax dollars being used to pay for abortions?
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great point - I'm opposed to the war in Iraq and the office of Faith Based Initiatives (just to name a couple of things).
I find both of those to be much more offensive than whether some woman I don't know chooses to have an abortion.
shouldn't I get to choose that MY tax dollars not be used for either of those things
btw - doesn't the Hyde ammendment prevent tax dollars being used to pay for abortions?
It does give you a legit reason to be concerned and oppose certain acts and legislation which is more then you are willing to give these ppl who are concerned about abortions being payed for with tax dollars...
I think that has been covered on here already it was established that if the legislation doesnt specifically bar it then it would be allowed.
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It does give you a legit reason to be concerned and oppose certain acts and legislation which is more then you are willing to give these ppl who are concerned about abortions being payed for with tax dollars...
I think that has been covered on here already it was established that if the legislation doesnt specifically bar it then it would be allowed.
fine I oppose them
Guess what - my tax dollars still pay for them anyway
now what do you suggest I do?
perhaps bitch about it on an obscure message board?
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fine I oppose them
Guess what - my tax dollars still pay for them anyway
now what do you suggest I do?
perhaps bitch about it on an obscure message board?
fine you support obamas liberal agenda what do you propose you do about it defend it on some obscure message board? 8)
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fine you support obamas liberal agenda what do you propose you do about it defend it on some obscure message board? 8)
I wish Obama actually had a liberal agenda
for the record (again) I see no problem with any health care reform (which most likely never happen) including safe access to abortion at the discretion of the patient and her doctor within our current legal system. I don't give a shit if tax payer dollars pay for it or not. I assume anti abortion folks will find the same way to deal with it that I deal with my tax dollars being wasted on the office of faith based initiatives
I think the topic of this thread is a classic case of right wing hair splitting used to gin up emotions of a certain segment of the public in order to get them to oppose the larger agenda of health care reform
I expect nothing from this board except some harmless entertainment
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I wish Obama actually had a liberal agenda
for the record (again) I see no problem with any health care reform (which most likely never happen) including safe access to abortion at the discretion of the patient and her doctor within our current legal system. I don't give a shit if tax payer dollars pay for it or not. I assume anti abortion folks will find the same way to deal with it that I deal with my tax dollars being wasted on the office of faith based initiatives
I think the topic of this thread is a classic case of right wing hair splitting used to gin up emotions of a certain segment of the public in order to get them to oppose the larger agenda of health care reform
I expect nothing from this board except some harmless entertainment
that speaks volumes...
I sincerely hope obama does get reform on health care passed I also sincerely hope he doesnt intiate another govt hand out program.
Its not really important but you seem to be facinated with this topic more then anyone your posted more in this thread then beach.
me too
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that speaks volumes...
I sincerely hope obama does get reform on health care passed I also sincerely hope he doesnt intiate another govt hand out program.
Its not really important but you seem to be facinated with this topic more then anyone your posted more in this thread then beach.
me too
I"m hardly fascinated.
just killng time and watching Copland and cooking some food for the week.
I think my point of view was pretty clear cut on page 1 of this thread
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Some ppl are actually against abortion straw and seeing as it is in the MAJORITY of cases elective the idea that it shouldnt be funded by those who are against it is a legit concern.
So I'll ask you my question to BB. Should people who believe in faith-based healing be allowed to stop paying for Medicaid and Medicare?
C'mon, Tony/BB. Man up and give me an answer!
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C'mon, Tony/BB. Man up and give me an answer!
sorry skip i didnt see that question
I dont quite understand how this applies or how it came about, was that from this thread?
If they feel they dont want or wont use it i think they should be allowed to quit paying in. Im not quite sure if thats what your looking for or not though.
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sorry skip i didnt see that question
I dont quite understand how this applies or how it came about, was that from this thread?
If they feel they dont want or wont use it i think they should be allowed to quit paying in. Im not quite sure if thats what your looking for or not though.
Yeah, basically that's what I wanted - your opinion on that. Just seems to open a can of worms though...
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Yeah, basically that's what I wanted - your opinion on that. Just seems to open a can of worms though...
I have an idea
let's open up medicare to everyone and give everyone the choice to opt in or out
If you're out then you're out forever and you're on your own with private insurance
no mercy if you can't afford it, get kicked off, lose your job or are denied coverage
let EVERYONE put their money where their mouth is and see what happens
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Yeah, basically that's what I wanted - your opinion on that. Just seems to open a can of worms though...
I totally agree like with what straw said about him not wanting to finance the war etc...
My main beef with obamas plan is me subsidizing somebody elses health care I sincerely want health care reform to bring down prices but as far as providing health care to all on the back of others im not really in favor of that. We all benifit from the safety that our soldiers provide us with so I dont see that as being an option. The office of faith based intiatives or whatever it is I can see his point.
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I totally agree like with what straw said about him not wanting to finance the war etc...
My main beef with obamas plan is me subsidizing somebody elses health care I sincerely want health care reform to bring down prices but as far as providing health care to all on the back of others im not really in favor of that. We all benifit from the safety that our soldiers provide us with so I dont see that as being an option. The office of faith based intiatives or whatever it is I can see his point.
yeah but I am subsidizing the war along with tax credits for oil companies, the office of faith based initiatives and all kinds of other shit I don't agree with.
Do you really think it's viable that every taxpayer get's a long checklist and get's to choose to pay for only the things they support?
I know it's a nice idea but think about it for a few minutes before you answer
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I have an idea
let's open up medicare to everyone and give everyone the choice to opt in or out
If you're out then you're out forever and you're on your own with private insurance
no mercy if you can't afford it, get kicked off, lose your job or are denied coverage
let EVERYONE put their money where their mouth is and see what happens
LOL I dont think many ppl are saying they shouldnt get some help but there are options already out there for ppl straw. If its simply that these ppl cant afford it then obamas plan without the public option supposedly will bring down prices.
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yeah but I am subsidizing the war along with tax credits for oil companies, the office of faith based initiatives and all kinds of other shit I don't agree with.
Do you really think it's viable that every taxpayer get's a long checklist and get's to choose to pay for only the things they support?
I know it's a nice idea but think about it for a few minutes before you answer
you cant compare medicaid/medicare to the war or oil company tax breaks etc. as far as options to choose to subsidize or not.
Whether you choose to pay into medicaid/medicare only effects you, lack of money for the military effects everyone...Higher gas prices effects everyone...
Ive already told you Im much more in favor of bringing down gas prices before health care costs. Which just proves my point it isnt about the cost to obama its about giving health care to everyone he is just pushing the cost/coverage angle to help push his agenda.
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LOL I dont think many ppl are saying they shouldnt get some help but there are options already out there for ppl straw. If its simply that these ppl cant afford it then obamas plan without the public option supposedly will bring down prices.
great
name some of those options you're talking about
what affordable option would you suggest for a self employed person with a "pre-existing condition"
let's hear it
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you cant compare medicaid/medicare to the war or oil company tax breaks etc. as far as options to choose to subsidize or not.
Whether you choose to pay into medicaid/medicare only effects you, lack of money for the military effects everyone...Higher gas prices effects everyone...
Ive already told you Im much more in favor of bringing down gas prices before health care costs. Which just proves my point it isnt about the cost to obama its about giving health care to everyone he is just pushing the cost/coverage angle to help push his agenda.
classic
so our military adventures are necessary so I can have cheap gas.
what the fuck would I care about cheap gas (or pretty much anything) if I'm chronically ill and can't afford health care
or if I'm forced into bankruptcy because my insurance company throws me off when I make a claim
etc...
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great
name some of those options you're talking about
what affordable option would you suggest for a self employed person with a "pre-existing condition"
let's hear it
there are already govt programs etc. out there for ppl
you pick one specific person with specific conditions and expect that to justify covering the rest of the millions LOL SERIOUSLY? again the vast majority of ppl out there without insurance have options sure there are certain ppl that fall in the cracks but those few DO NOT JUSTIFY covering everyone.
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you cant compare medicaid/medicare to the war or oil company tax breaks etc. as far as options to choose to subsidize or not.
Whether you choose to pay into medicaid/medicare only effects you, lack of money for the military effects everyone...Higher gas prices effects everyone...
That's open to some serious interpretation. If people don't get the basic health care they need, we all pay for it at the emergency room. That's never going to change unless somethings done about healthcare. I'm still on the fence about socializing health care, but I don't see the republicans ever offering up serious alternatives for change.
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you cant compare medicaid/medicare to the war or oil company tax breaks etc. as far as options to choose to subsidize or not.
Whether you choose to pay into medicaid/medicare only effects you, lack of money for the military effects everyone...Higher gas prices effects everyone...
Ive already told you Im much more in favor of bringing down gas prices before health care costs. Which just proves my point it isnt about the cost to obama its about giving health care to everyone he is just pushing the cost/coverage angle to help push his agenda.
wow - I've got to comment twice
so in your world life sustaining health care or even access to basic health maintenance is less important that tax cuts for oil companies or cheap gas
but oh yeah, you also really really really care about fetuses too
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classic
so our military adventures are necessary so I can have cheap gas.
what the fuck would I care about cheap gas (or pretty much anything) if I'm chronically ill and can't afford health care
or if I'm forced into bankruptcy because my insurance company throws me off when I make a claim
etc...
I dont know where you got that from...
at the same time straw what would it matter if you had great health coverage but constantly bombarded by terrorist?
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there are already govt programs etc. out there for ppl
you pick one specific person with specific conditions and expect that to justify covering the rest of the millions LOL SERIOUSLY? again the vast majority of ppl out there without insurance have options sure there are certain ppl that fall in the cracks but those few DO NOT JUSTIFY covering everyone.
NAME ONE
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That's open to some serious interpretation. If people don't get the basic health care they need, we all pay for it at the emergency room. That's never going to change unless somethings done about healthcare. I'm still on the fence about socializing health care, but I don't see the republicans ever offering up serious alternatives for change.
Why not simply implement those actions that obama wants to do to supposedly pay for the public option?
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I dont know where you got that from...
at the same time straw what would it matter if you had great health coverage but constantly bombarded by terrorist?
are you serious.
maybe I'm missing the nuance
you cant compare medicaid/medicare to the war or oil company tax breaks etc. as far as options to choose to subsidize or not.
Whether you choose to pay into medicaid/medicare only effects you, lack of money for the military effects everyone...Higher gas prices effects everyone...
Ive already told you Im much more in favor of bringing down gas prices before health care costs.
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wow - I've got to comment twice
so in your world life sustaining health care or even access to basic health maintenance is less important that tax cuts for oil companies or cheap gas
but oh yeah, you also really really really care about fetuses too
Nope again youre really living up to your name, b/c youre really distorting my view...
Im for bringing down the prices and making health insurance more affordable and doing away with shady practices ive said that many times. Im not in favor of giving everyone health care and yes I would rather obama deal with the oil companies and focus on their windfall profits rather then the insurance companies
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are you serious.
maybe I'm missing the nuance
and from that you got that i said that military ventures are necessary for low health cost etc....? fuking seriously are you drunk?
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NAME ONE
dude youve named a few govt programs, here though gold card
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wow - I've got to comment twice
so in your world life sustaining health care or even access to basic health maintenance is less important that tax cuts for oil companies or cheap gas
but oh yeah, you also really really really care about fetuses too
Fetuses dont have options do they? they are being terminated b/c in MOST cases ppl want to shirk their responsibility arent they?
Ppl have basic health maintenance again you cannot be denied at a ER there are other options.
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you cant compare medicaid/medicare to the war or oil company tax breaks etc. as far as options to choose to subsidize or not.
Whether you choose to pay into medicaid/medicare only effects you, lack of money for the military effects everyone...Higher gas prices effects everyone...
I'm still lost on this
You're saying I have no choice in subsidizing cheap gas because it effects EVERYONE
but health care doesn't effect everyone and is less important that cheap gas
WTF man?
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Fetuses dont have options do they? they are being terminated b/c in MOST cases ppl want to shirk their responsibility arent they?
Ppl have basic health maintenance again you cannot be denied at a ER there are other options.
name the program that the self employed person with a pre-existing condition can use
let's make it easier. It can also be a program for someone who has insurance but their company has denied coverage or and we can also add the person who has insurance but can't afford their 5k or 10k deductible
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I'm still lost on this
You're saying I have no choice in subsidizing cheap gas because it effect EVERYONE
but health care doesn't effect everyone and is less important that cheap gas
WFT man?
OK you not giving a tax break to a company effects more then just you, you get it?
youre tax money not going to the military effects more then just you, you get it?
you not paying into medicaid/medicare if you dont want the benefits only effects you, you get it?
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name the program that the self employed person with a pre-existing condition can use
let's make it easier. It can also be a program for someone who has insurance but their company has denied coverage or and we can also add the person who has insurance but can't afford their 5k or 10k deductible
explain to me why we need a public option to fix that, please tell me that we cant pass legislation that does away with the pre existing conditions clause without providing health care to all.
Ive already said that im in favor of health care reform but youre proving my point the two are not mutually exclusive.
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OK you not giving a tax break to a company effects more then just you, you get it?
youre tax money not going to the military effects more then just you, you get it?
you not paying into medicaid/medicare if you dont want the benefits only effects you, you get it?
and paying into a large insurance pool so that eveyone can have access to medical care effects more than YOU
DO YOU GET IT?
I'd be more than happy to let you not pay and fend for yourself among private insurance
the day you lose your job or your private company rejects your claim or the rescind you policy based on some technical bullshit don't come running to me.
as long as you have your cheap gas you'll be fine anyway
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explain to me why we need a public option to fix that, please tell me that we cant pass legislation that does away with the pre existing conditions clause without providing health care to all.
Ive already said that im in favor of health care reform but youre proving my point the two are not mutually exclusive.
do you participate in a group policy for your health insurance?
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and paying into a large insurance pool so that eveyone can have access to medical care effects more than YOU
DO YOU GET IT?
I'd be more than happy to let you not pay and fend for yourself among private insurance
the day you lose your job or your private company rejects your claim or the rescind you policy based on some technical bullshit don't come running to me.
as long as you have your cheap gas you'll be fine anyway
I DONT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE RIGHT NOW....GET IT?
I dont give a shit, you shouldnt pay for me and I shouldnt pay for you...
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I DONT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE RIGHT NOW....GET IT?
I dont give a shit, you shouldnt pay for me and I shouldnt pay for you...
classic
that's just fucking classic
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Tommy - why don't you have insurance?
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explain to me why we need a public option to fix that, please tell me that we cant pass legislation that does away with the pre existing conditions clause without providing health care to all.
Ive already said that im in favor of health care reform but youre proving my point the two are not mutually exclusive.
go ahead and explain this straw
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go ahead and explain this straw
why don't you have health insurance?
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Tommy - why don't you have insurance?
OMGGGGG its Tony bro with and "N" not "MM" how long have we debated?
I have not had health insurance for quite some time now, I was an independent contractor in the construction industry still never had insurance that probably wasnt the best idea lol but Im back in school now and looking for a full time job right now.
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why don't you have health insurance?
what are you 12? I asked you to explain something lets have a grown up conversation here.
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OMGGGGG its Tony bro with and "N" not "MM" how long have we debated?
I have not had health insurance for quite some time now, I was an independent contractor in the construction industry still never had insurance that probably wasnt the best idea lol but Im back in school now and looking for a full time job right now.
whatever, I'm typing fast and watching food on the stove
Why don't you have insurance now.
you have money right?
why haven't you purchased insurance or availed yourself of one those govt programs that you can't name
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what are you 12? I asked you to explain something lets have a grown up conversation here.
tell me why you haven't purcahsed insurance and I'll give you your answer
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tell me why you haven't purcahsed insurance and I'll give you your answer
so you are 12...
Why don't you have insurance now.
you have money right?
why haven't you purchased insurance or availed yourself of one those govt programs that you can't name
did you look up gold card?
I do have money its best suited for other things right now school, rent, bills in general etc...
In all honesty straw theres no real reason I dont have health insurance I simply dont.
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so you are 12...
did you look up gold card?
I do have money its best suited for other things right now school, rent, bills in general etc...
In all honesty straw theres no real reason I dont have health insurance I simply dont.
ok so..... you don't have insurance yet there is also no reason why you don't have insurance
it's got nothing to do with insurance being too expensive right?
how about this question
who is going to pay for your health care if you get in a horrible car accident tonight (and of course I hope you don't)
you get in a wreck and are horribly fucked up.
Should the hospital just say tough titties and refuse to treat you?
how about ongoing care, rehabilitation etc....
surely you don't expect the taxpayers to cover your bill?
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ok so..... you don't have insurance yet there is also no reason why you don't have insurance
it's got nothing to do with insurance being too expensive right?
how about this question
who is going to pay for your health care if you get in a horrible car accident tonight (and of course I hope you don't)
you get in a wreck and are horribly fucked up.
Should the hospital just say tough titties and refuse to treat you?
how about ongoing care, rehabilitation etc....
surely you don't expect the taxpayers to cover your bill?
LOL no straw it doesnt have anything to do with the price of health care right now.
No I would not expect the tax payers to cover my bill, that doesnt mean I think you should pay for it.
Did you look up the gold card?
alright now please explain that to me...
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LOL no straw it doesnt have anything to do with the price of health care right now.
No I would not expect the tax payers to cover my bill, that doesnt mean I think you should pay for it.
Did you look up the gold card?
alright now please explain that to me...
so you have ZERO health insurance right now?
is that correct?
and that is your choice and it has nothing to do with money
right?
right?
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so you have ZERO health insurance right now?
is that correct?
and that is your choice and it has nothing to do with money
right?
right?
Ive played your game now you play mine explain that to me...
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Ive played your game now you play mine explain that to me...
so you have the money to pay for insurance yet you choose not to do so
again, who is going to cover you in the case of a catastrophic event?
I know you don't want the US TAXPAYER to have to pay for it
I mean, you got your cheap gas, what else can you expect from your GOVT
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explain to me why we need a public option to fix that, please tell me that we cant pass legislation that does away with the pre existing conditions clause without providing health care to all.
Ive already said that im in favor of health care reform but youre proving my point the two are not mutually exclusive.
answer that bro and we will pick right back up on your tangent...and I dont have cheap gas
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answer that bro and we will pick right back up on your tangent...and I dont have cheap gas
first - let's just be clear
I believe you don't have insurance because you can't afford it
if you have the money and you choose not to pay it then you're either stupid or a communist (i.e. you're fully aware that if you get fucked up then I/others/the rest of us will eventually have to pay for it)
.
.
.
.
.
.
I'm ready to move on if you are
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first - let's just be clear
I believe you don't have insurance because you can't afford it
if you have the money and you choose not to pay it then you're either stupid or a communist (i.e. you're fully aware that if you get fucked up then I/others/the rest of us will eventually have to pay for it)
.
.
.
.
.
.
I'm ready to move on if you are
well come back to this like I said...but for now since I asked mine first and was good enough to answer yours, plz answer mine.
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well come back to this like I said...but for now since I asked mine first and was good enough to answer yours, plz answer mine.
okay
first what do we agree on
1. you can't afford insurance
2. you can afford it but choose not to pay for it
2a. you're stupid
2b. you're a cunning commie
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explain to me why we need a public option to fix that, please tell me that we cant pass legislation that does away with the pre existing conditions clause without providing health care to all.
Ive already said that im in favor of health care reform but youre proving my point the two are not mutually exclusive.
come the fuck on straw grow the fuck up and explain this to me and i promise little guy we will get right back to your idiocy.
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come the fuck on straw grow the fuck up and explain this to me and i promise little guy we will get right back to your idiocy.
dude
you are the PERFECT EXAMPLE of what we're talking about
I'm self employed and I have insurance which I pay for myself
you are the fucking problem
again
WHO will pay the bills if you wrap your car around a tree, get lyme disease, get attacked by a shark etc...
WHO WILL PAY THOSE BILLS?
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explain to me why we need a public option to fix that, please tell me that we cant pass legislation that does away with the pre existing conditions clause without providing health care to all.
Ive already said that im in favor of health care reform but youre proving my point the two are not mutually exclusive.
BIZUMP
and Ill pay my own bills straw Im also searching for a full time job that provides healthcare you know just one of those other options out there ;)
now answer the fuking question jack ass
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BIZUMP
and Ill pay my own bills straw Im also searching for a full time job that provides healthcare you know just one of those other options out there ;)
now answer the fuking question jack ass
more likely if you experience a catastrophic event
that you will receive care (at my expense)
won't be able to pay your bills (you're fucked up..... remember?)
and will be forced into bankruptcy
and also facing a semi-permanent fucked up financial situation
GOOD CHOICE on your part since we know you can afford insurance now and choose not to pay for it
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more likely if you experience a catastrophic event
that you will receive care (at my expense)
won't be able to pay your bills (you're fucked up..... remember?)
and will be forced into bankruptcy
and also facing a semi-permanent fucked up financial situation
GOOD CHOICE on your part since we know you can afford insurance now and choose not to pay for it
LOL cool soooo you gonna explain that or what?
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explain to me why we need a public option to fix that, please tell me that we cant pass legislation that does away with the pre existing conditions clause without providing health care to all.
Ive already said that im in favor of health care reform but youre proving my point the two are not mutually exclusive.
YOU are the reason we need a public option
I thought you would have figured that out by now
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Damn you two are relentless!
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explain to me why we need a public option to fix that, please tell me that we cant pass legislation that does away with the pre existing conditions clause without providing health care to all.
Ive already said that im in favor of health care reform but youre proving my point the two are not mutually exclusive.
BIZUMP you know straw if obammers is able to lower the cost of healthcare i might just sign up :D
but id like to know why we need a public option to do away with pre existing conditions, shady practices and high prices etc...
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YOU are the reason we need a public option
I thought you would have figured that out by now
I had nothing to do with your idiotic example...remember?
name the program that the self employed person with a pre-existing condition can use
let's make it easier. It can also be a program for someone who has insurance but their company has denied coverage or and we can also add the person who has insurance but can't afford their 5k or 10k deductible
hmmm ya just like i thought i was no where in that quote so please explain why we would need a public option to fix this problem...
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BIZUMP you know straw if obammers is able to lower the cost of healthcare i might just sign up :D
but id like to know why we need a public option to do away with pre existing conditions, shady practices and high prices etc...
NO SHIT YOU'D SIGN UP ::)
insurance requires a large group to spread the risk
you don't also need to build in the personal incentive for huge profits for a few individuals or a small group of individuals (shareholders)
I don't buy that premise at all (not saying you are for it - just trying to define the argument)
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YOU are the reason we need a public option
I thought you would have figured that out by now
im not the reason im exercising one of my many options and looking for gainful employment that will provide me with healthcare. Which i promise you is open to the vast majority of the ppl who are unemployed. It may shock you straw that alot of ppl CHOOSE to go without health insurance from time to time. I dont feel I need to buy a policy for a few months why not just GO GET A JOB!!!!!!!!
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NO SHIT YOU'D SIGN UP ::)
insurance requires a large group to spread the risk
you don't also need to build in the personal incentive for huge profits for a few individuals or a small group of individuals (shareholders)
I don't buy that premise at all (not saying you are for it - just trying to define the argument)
lol actually i was being sarcastic i still probably wouldnt sign up right now...
you gonna explain yourself on that one quote or what...i played your game for quite some time straw do me the courtesy.
What about that scenario you gave needed a public option to fix? could the legislation obama is proposing not fix those problems without a public option? So to what end does the public option really serve?
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lol actually i was being sarcastic i still probably wouldnt sign up right now...
you gonna explain yourself on that one quote or what...i played your game for quite some time straw do me the courtesy.
What about that scenario you gave needed a public option to fix? could the legislation obama is proposing not fix those problems without a public option? So to what end does the public option really serve?
what quote?
what would you like me to address?
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lol actually i was being sarcastic i still probably wouldnt sign up right now...
you gonna explain yourself on that one quote or what...i played your game for quite some time straw do me the courtesy.
What about that scenario you gave needed a public option to fix? could the legislation obama is proposing not fix those problems without a public option? So to what end does the public option really serve?
so you're a communist or his liberal cousin the socialist
you truly expect others to pay for your catastrophic coverage
right?
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what quote?
what would you like me to address?
youre shitting me right ive been trying to get an answer from you for 2 fuking pages...
name the program that the self employed person with a pre-existing condition can use
let's make it easier. It can also be a program for someone who has insurance but their company has denied coverage or and we can also add the person who has insurance but can't afford their 5k or 10k deductible
explain to me why we need a public option to fix that, please tell me that we cant pass legislation that does away with the pre existing conditions clause without providing health care to all.
Ive already said that im in favor of health care reform but youre proving my point the two are not mutually exclusive.
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so you're a communist or his liberal cousin the socialist
you truly expect others to pay for your catastrophic coverage
right?
nope thats again why im looking for gainful employment to provide me with health care...you know one of those MANY DIFFERENT OPTIONS OUT THERE AVAILABLE TO ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLLL 8)
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nope thats again why im looking for gainful employment to provide me with health care...you know one of those MANY DIFFERENT OPTIONS OUT THERE AVAILABLE TO ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLLL 8)
your OPTIONS are extremely limited to non-existent
can we at least agree on that?
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your OPTIONS are extremely limited to non-existent
can we at least agree on that?
dude answer what ive been asking for before we even get back into that shit, i feel like im dealing with a spoiled fuking kindergardner man shit.
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dude answer what ive been asking for before we even get back into that shit, i feel like im dealing with a spoiled fuking kindergardner man shit.
I'm not sure what question you're talking about
state it and I'll anwer
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I'm not sure what question you're talking about
state it and I'll anwer
scroll up a little bit bro or review the last 2 fucking pages youre smart enough im sure you will figure it out.
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scroll up a little bit bro or review the last 2 fucking pages youre smart enough im sure you will figure it out.
fuck you
with the same amount of text you can ask again
ask
and
I
will
answer
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fuck it nvm there is no good answer you were proven wrong and just want to avoid it as you have for 3 pages now lets just drop it.
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fuck it nvm there is no good answer you were proven wrong and just want to avoid it as you have for 3 pages now lets just drop it.
tony - I honestly have no idea exacty what question for which you seek an answer
ask away
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tony - I honestly have no idea exacty what question for which you seek an answer
ask away
dude im not going to go copy and paste your post then my post scroll up i just did it again for the nteenth time in this thread a few posts ago...
Like I said theres no good answer you simply wanted to avoid owning up to the fact that a public option is not needed to reform healthcare and lower costs etc...
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dude im not going to go copy and paste your post then my post scroll up i just did it again for the nteenth time in this thread a few posts ago...
Like I said theres no good answer you simply wanted to avoid owning up to the fact that a public option is not needed to reform healthcare and lower costs etc...
wtf dude?
I seriously thought I had answered all your questions
what would you like to know?
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Well I guess that's the reasoning I'm trying to follow. Let's put the current law on the side right now. Most objection to tax payer funded abortion that I know of is based on people's religous beliefs against abortion. So I'm trying to follow where a person would draw the line. It would seem to me to follow that people who object to medical care all together (faith based healers) would not want their tax money going towards medicaid and medicare. It seems in one case the religous views of people are important and they should not have to fund abortion, but in the other, it's basically fuck your beliefs, you're going to pay into medicare/medicaid. Where's the line?
I don't really agree with your premise. I don't think people are pro life based on religious beliefs. I think they're pro life because they believe abortion kills a baby and that an unborn baby should have the same rights as people outside the womb.
I can't really speak for faith-based healers. Don't know much about them.
But for me, the line is you don't use compulsory tax dollars to support the most controversial elective procedure in American medicine. I don't think religious views play any role in that line. Doesn't for me.
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Battle Brews Over Abortion in Health Care Fight
Abortion opponents say they will be satisfied only if a health bill specifically bans all abortion coverage in any federally subsidized plan.
Wall Street Journal
FOXNews.com
Thursday, August 27, 2009
Anti-abortion groups are gearing up for a battle in the fall over health-care legislation, another headache for Democrats who already face concerns about the measure's cost and reach.
Most versions of the Democratic health plan would create subsidies for lower-income people to buy private health insurance. If that insurance includes coverage for abortion, as many existing private plans do, it effectively means federal taxpayers are subsidizing abortion, critics of the legislation argue.
While it gets less attention than some other parts of the plan, abortion has often been raised by critics at town-hall meetings during the August congressional recess.
Abortion opponents are funding advertisements targeting key lawmakers. The Family Research Council is running television and radio ads in several states that are home to swing-vote Democratic senators, while the National Right to Life Committee is targeting pro-life Democrats in the House who likely will take the first vote on the measure in September.
Before they vote, "lawmakers will know this is a bill to set up a big federal abortion program," said the right-to-life committee's legislative director, Douglas Johnson.
Those who favor abortion rights say the bills aren't giving any special treatment to abortions. National Organization for Women President Terry O'Neill said the conservatives' proposals would deny many women their reproductive rights. "There is no constitutional basis for taking that away or for any politician to use reproductive health care as a political football," she said.
Abortion opponents say they will be satisfied only if a health bill specifically bans all abortion coverage in any federally subsidized plan. They note that Congress has already established similar bans in other federally funded health programs, such as Medicaid, health insurance for federal workers and military plans. The only exceptions are for rape, incest or danger to the life of the mother.
Click here to continue reading at the Wall Street Journal.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2009/08/27/battle-brews-abortion-health-care-fight/
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Battle Brews Over Abortion in Health Care Fight
Abortion opponents say they will be satisfied only if a health bill specifically bans all abortion coverage in any federally subsidized plan.
who cares what abortion opponents want
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So said again today that no federal tax dollars would be used to fund abortions. Sounds dishonest.
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So said again today that no federal tax dollars would be used to fund abortions. Sounds dishonest.
it is same as his postponing the public option bs for later by saying it isnt necissary...
why put wording in the legislation that leaves the door open for it if thats the case?
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it is same as his postponing the public option bs for later by saying it isnt necissary...
why put wording in the legislation that leaves the door open for it if thats the case?
It really is misleading IMO. Check out the clips I posted at the start of the thread.
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So said again today that no federal tax dollars would be used to fund abortions. Sounds dishonest.
"sounds dishonest" ?
wtf does that mean?
obama said that no federal tax dollar would be used to fund abortions and you have a problem with the sound???
wtf are you talking about?
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"sounds dishonest" ?
wtf does that mean?
obama said that no federal tax dollar would be used to fund abortions and you have a problem with the sound???
wtf are you talking about?
when wording in the bill specifically leaves the door open for federal funding for abortions it sounds dishonest... ::)
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when wording in the bill specifically leaves the door open for federal funding for abortions it sounds dishonest... ::)
bum was talking about the wording in the bill?
hey bum, is that what you meant by "sounds dishonest"?
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bum was talking about the wording in the bill?
hey bum, is that what you meant by "sounds dishonest"?
nope but why would he authorize ppl to put together a bill with that in it? he basically told them what he wanted and knew what it said...
he didnt say anything about the wording but why wouldnt he if he is against it?
he is citing the legislation right now preventing it but if he really meant it why wouldnt he address the language in the bill?
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nope but why would he authorize ppl to put together a bill with that in it? he basically told them what he wanted and knew what it said...
he didnt say anything about the wording but why wouldnt he if he is against it?
he is citing the legislation right now preventing it but if he really meant it why wouldnt he address the language in the bill?
what are you talking about?
bum is saying (I think) that when heard Obama say that no federal funding would be used to fund abortions that it sounds dishonest
I don't get it
is it the "sound" or something he said
if it's something he said then
what is it?
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Redux: Obama Claims Health Care Plan Will Not Cover Abortion Services
Under the current legislation in the House, low and moderate-income Americans can receive subsidies from the federal government -- called "affordability credits" -- to purchase insurance from private companies, some of whom cover abortions.
FOXNews.com
Thursday, September 10, 2009
Critics of health care proposals in Democratic-sponsored legislation on Thursday accused President Obama of offering his own myth when he claimed in a speech Wednesday night that no federal dollars would be used to fund abortions.
While language included in the House bill technically bans the use of taxpayer money to fund abortions, critics say those terms are useless.
"People can use government subsidies to do this," said Douglas Johnson, legislative director for the National Right to Life.
Under the current legislation in the House, people who decide to participate in a government-run "public option or in a health-care exchange, which provides subsidies for private insurance, will pay premiums. Those premiums will be the only money used for abortion services, not any taxpayer funds that may cover the rest of the costs of administering the program, say supporters of the bill.
"The only funds that may be used to pay for other abortion services are from private funds generated by the policyholders' premiums, whether the policyholder is covered by a private plan or the public option," said Emily Kryder, a spokeswoman for Rep. Lois Capps, D-Calif., who added the amendment to the House bill.
In a one-line response to charges that taxpayers will foot the bill for abortions, Obama Wednesday night called it a "bogus" claim.
"One more misunderstanding I want to clear up -- under our plan, no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions, and federal conscience laws will remain in place," the president said in an address to a joint session of Congress to sell health care reforms.
But critics say the premium vs. taxpayer pots are a distinction without a difference.
"This is a political hoax," Johnson told FOXNews.com before appearing with pro-life lawmakers on Capitol Hill. "The public plan is explicitly authorized to cover all abortions. This is not disputed. They will be paid for out of a federal Treasury account. These are as much federal funds as any other funds at the U.S. Treasury."
Johnson said under the House legislation abortion providers would send their bills directly to the Health and Human Services Department and receive a check from the government for their services.
Obama has called the abortion claim a "fabrication" and "distraction" from passing reform, but the current legislation has ignited a firestorm among lawmakers and pro-life groups who say the president's words are grossly misleading.
Factcheck.org, a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania, wrote last month that the bills now before Congress don't "require" federal money to be used for abortion services.
"The president is right to that limited extent," the project said. "But it's equally true that House and Senate legislation would allow a new 'public' insurance plan to cover abortions, despite language added to the House bill that technically forbids using public funds to pay for them. Obama has said in the past that 'reproductive services' would be covered by his public plan, so it's likely that any new federal insurance plan would cover abortion unless Congress expressly prohibits that."
A poll released Thursday by the Susan B. Anthony List, a pro-life group, found that 43 percent of respondents said they would be less likely to back Obama's health reform legislation if the government pays for abortions. The poll, which surveyed registered voters from Aug. 30 to Sept. 1, has a margin of error of 3.5 percent.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/10/obamas-abortion-claims-health-speech-misleading-critics-charge/
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I guess we'll find out tomorrow whether he lied about abortion as well.
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I guess we'll find out tomorrow whether he lied about abortion as well.
There has not been one truthful thing that has come from Obama since day one.
Beach, I still have not gotten an answer from one obama voter or supporter as to what Obama did in 143 days in the Senate to make him go from admittedly being "unqualified" for president to qualified.
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Is bam bam being dishonest?? lol Is he talking ?
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There has not been one truthful thing that has come from Obama since day one.
Beach, I still have not gotten an answer from one obama voter or supporter as to what Obama did in 143 days in the Senate to make him go from admittedly being "unqualified" for president to qualified.
Hillary and Biden said the same thing.
Good luck waiting on your answer.
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Federal workers (including Stupak and his family) receive healthcare that includes abortion
This healthcare is paid for by US Tax Dollars therefore Stupaks family (and hundreds of thousands of federal workers) have the option to choose abortion and have it paid for by the US Tax Payer
If Stupak really cared about abortion he would clean up his own backyard first rather than telling other citizens that they can't have what he and his family have (and paid for by you and me)
btw - anyone notice how Stupak always has that glazed over, brain dead looks that many fundies also have?
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Very interested to see whether Obama keeps his word.
Questions over abortion in new federal health plan
By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR (AP)
WASHINGTON — Abortion opponents are raising questions about a critical new insurance program under President Barack Obama's health care overhaul law.
Federal officials say elective abortion is barred under the Pre-Existing Condition Insurance Plan. It offers coverage to people turned down by private insurers because of medical problems, at rates comparable to what the healthy pay.
But at least one state — New Mexico — initially listed elective abortion as a covered benefit, reversing course after The Associated Press inquired on Wednesday.
National Right to Life and other abortion opponents say rules for the program have not been clearly spelled out, and that could open the way for taxpayer-subsidized coverage of elective abortion. Federal law bars paying for abortion with government money, except in cases of rape or incest or to save the mother's life.
"We don't think this is just a problem of vagueness, we see a pattern of the Obama administration trying to expand abortion any time they can get away with it," said Douglas Johnson, legislative director for National Right to Life.
A spokeswoman for the federal Health and Human Services Department said that's totally wrong, and insisted there was no intention of allowing abortion coverage under the new program, also known as PCIP.
"In all our PCIP plans, abortions will not be covered except in the cases of rape, incest or where the life of the mother would be endangered," said Jenny Backus. The department is working on guidance to make those restrictions explicit to states and insurance plans.
Abortion coverage was one of the most difficult issues in last year's epic congressional debate over health care. Democrats were able to muster enough votes to pass the bill in the House only after Obama agreed to sign an executive order affirming longstanding restrictions on taxpayer-funded abortions.
The health overhaul law attempted to strike a compromise. Private plans in new insurance markets opening for business in 2014 can cover abortion, but payment must come from enrollees themselves, not from federal tax credits that will be offered to make premiums more affordable.
However, lawmakers left it to bureaucrats at HHS to write the rules for pre-existing conditions coverage, a $5 billion program entirely subsidized by federal taxpayers. It's intended to serve as a stopgap until 2014, when insurers will no longer be able to deny coverage to people with medical problems.
In the rush to get the program running this summer, many of the details apparently were not made clear. Twenty-nine states and Washington, D.C., are administering their own plans. The federal government is running the program in the remaining 21 states.
Michelle Lujan Grisham, deputy director of the New Mexico Medical Insurance Pool, said the state's contract with HHS stipulated that the plan must follow federal law, but there was no clear-cut mention of abortion coverage.
As a result, New Mexico included elective abortion as a covered benefit, following what it was already doing with its own state health programs.
An Internet site describing the New Mexico plan listed "elective termination of pregnancy" as a covered benefit. The plan would pay 80 percent of the cost of an abortion, after the beneficiary met a $500 annual deductible.
Asked about coverage of elective abortion by the AP on Wednesday, Grisham initially responded that the state intended to follow through with its original plan.
A little later, she called back to say her agency was reversing course. "We are in the process of correcting the package so it will not have elective abortion coverage," said Grisham.
National Right to Life has also raised questions about Pennsylvania's plan. But Rosanne Placey, a spokeswoman for the state insurance department, said the program will not cover elective abortions. "That is not part of the benefit package," she said.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ig2n-N48bvgGAWA-wHlMPQpOdinQD9GV308O5
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Stupak should rot in hell for his sell out. Who believes obama on anything other than the mindless drones.
Beach - I found the perfect video for Obama supporters. Check this out. This is Danny, KC, Blacken, Mons, Andre, Al Doggity, Straw, AE, listeing to Obama.
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Stupak should rot in hell for his sell out. Who believes obama on anything other than the mindless drones.
Beach - I found the perfect video for Obama supporters. Check this out. This is Danny, KC, Blacken, Mons, Andre, Al Doggity, Straw, AE, listeing to Obama.
You call us drones only because we have a different point of view. That's fine, at least we're not paranoid about a new world order and concentration camps. ;) How does it feel to live in fear like you do?? Commies are coming ...commies are coming ..........rrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuunnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D It's your choice man ,but you should understand two different opinion doesn't necessarily mean one of them is wrong.
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No, an opinion is one thing. Mindlessly believing the Dear Leader when he is proven to be lying is a completely different thing.
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No, an opinion is one thing. Mindlessly believing the Dear Leader when he is proven to be lying is a completely different thing.
When you say Dear Leader it really sounds funny..... ;D you really dont wanna know what kind of power a real Dear Leader has. trust me.
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Federal workers (including Stupak and his family) receive healthcare that includes abortion
This healthcare is paid for by US Tax Dollars therefore Stupaks family (and hundreds of thousands of federal workers) have the option to choose abortion and have it paid for by the US Tax Payer
If Stupak really cared about abortion he would clean up his own backyard first rather than telling other citizens that they can't have what he and his family have (and paid for by you and me)
btw - anyone notice how Stupak always has that glazed over, brain dead looks that many fundies also have?
The problem with that is you can extend it out indefinetely. Then the government could dictate what everybody at Boeing or Rand or Accenture or Lockheed or any other government contractor could do related to abortion. Once the money is earned, it's earned. You have to draw a line somewhere.
I think a much stronger argument is to attack their criticism that the pool of money (from subsidies and premiums) would be too muddy to differentiate if taxpayer dollars are going towards abortions. I doubt it. Insurance companies are very good with keeping their money in order and they could easily tell if they are paying out more for abortions then they are bringing in with premiums. Then, if abortions are cutting into taxpayer subsidies, they could raise premiums.
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How does it feel to live in fear like you do?? Commies are coming ...commies are coming ..........rrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuunnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You've got to be kidding...
put yourself in my shoes,would you tell if you knew the information you put on the web could possibly affect you directly or your family and put them in a potentially dangerous situation ? I doubt it. My point was that nobody can grasp the reality of a communist regime and how bad it is, the real stuff, unless you lived it. You don't need credibility to make a point like that. ;)
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You've got to be kidding...
Great now I have a fukin stalker. ::)
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When you say Dear Leader it really sounds funny..... ;D you really dont wanna know what kind of power a real Dear Leader has. trust me.
So you are from NK?
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So you are from NK?
Good God....not this shit again. NO. But we had a Dear Leader in my former country and he had absolute power. You can not imagine the level of control this fucker had and what he used it for. :o
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Good God....not this shit again. NO. But we had a Dear Leader in my former country and he had absolute power. You can not imagine the level of control this fucker had and what he used it for. :o
So its either Bulgaria, Albania, or maybe Haiti under Papa Doc?
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Check out this gem. Unreal. FFUUBBOOO!!!!!
________________________ _________________-
David Sirota.Newspaper columnist, radio host (AM760), bestselling author
Posted: July 14, 2010 07:32 PM BIO Become a Fan Get Email Alerts Bloggers'
Obama Hires Former WellPoint Exec to Implement Health Care Law
www.huffingtonpost.com
From the Department of You Just Can't Make This Stuff Up, check out this little-noticed report from the Billings Gazette today:
Liz Fowler, a key staffer for U.S. Sen. Max Baucus who helped draft the federal health reform bill enacted in March, is joining the Obama administration to help implement the new law...
Fowler headed up a team of 20-some Senate Finance Committee staffers who helped draft the bill in the Senate. She was Baucus' top health care aide from 2001-2005 and left that job in 2006 to become an executive at WellPoint, the nation's largest private insurer. She was vice president of public policy at WellPoint, helping develop public-policy positions for the company. In 2008, she rejoined Baucus to work on health reform legislation.
For some good background on Fowler and the insidious role she played in killing the public option, watch Bill Moyers' recent segment here.
Clearly, this is a telling indictment of the health care law itself, strongly suggesting that it was constructed by the Obama administration -- as some progressives argued -- as a massive taxpayer-financed giveaway to private insurers like WellPoint. And let's be honest: In investment terms, Fowler has been a jackpot for the health industry. The industry maximized her public policy experience for their own uses when they plucked her out of the Senate. Then, having lined her pockets, they deposited her first into a key Senate committee to write the new health care law that they will operate under, and now into the administration that will implement said law. Any bets on how much Fowler will make when WellPoint (or another health insurer) inevitably rehires her in a few years?
This story is also a telling indictment of the Washington media. You'll notice that the Obama administration's move was reported by the Billings Gazette, but (save for a blog entry on the Hill's website, one context-free line at the bottom of the Washington Post's gossip column, and a blurb in Congressional Quarterly's HealthBeat newsletter) was almost completely ignored by national Washington-based publications. That's not because D.C. reporters didn't know it was happening -- more likely, it is because the political press corps in the nation's capital no longer sees this kind of revolving door corruption as even mildly problematic, much less newsworthy. That's how pervasive corruption is these days -- ubiquitous to the point of invisible in the eyes of most of the so-called watchdogs.
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Stupak should rot in hell for his sell out. Who believes obama on anything other than the mindless drones.
Beach - I found the perfect video for Obama supporters. Check this out. This is Danny, KC, Blacken, Mons, Andre, Al Doggity, Straw, AE, listeing to Obama.
Hahahahahahaha! I like it. ;D
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You've got to be kidding...
lol. Commies are reading this board, just waiting for you to slip up Danny. :)
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Obama Administration Approves First Direct Taxpayer Funding of Abortion Through New High-Risk Insurance Pools
Wednesday, July 14, 2010
By Susan Jones, Senior Editor
President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe Biden react to cheers as they arrive in the East Room of the White House in Washington, Tuesday, March 23, 2010, for the signing ceremony for the health care bill. (AP Photo/J. Scott Applewhite)(CNSNews.com) - If you want proof that President Obama's Executive Order on taxpayer-funded abortion was a sham, look no further than Pennsylvania, says House Republican Leader John Boehner (Ohio).
Boehner and other Republicans point to reports that the Health and Human Services Department is giving Pennsylvania $160 million to set up a new high-risk insurance pool that will cover any abortion that is legal in the state.
"The fact that the high-risk pool insurance program in Pennsylvania will use federal taxpayer dollars to fund abortions is unconscionable," Boehner said in a statement on Tuesday.
“Just last month at the White House, I asked President Obama to provide the American people with a progress report on the implementation of his Executive Order, which purports to ban taxpayer-funding of abortions. Unfortunately, the President provided no information, and the American people are still waiting for answers."
President Obama pledged that under his health care plan “no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions, and federal conscience laws will remain in place.”
In a May 13 letter to Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, Boehner asked if her department has provided guidance to the states on how to implement the president’s Executive Order on abortion funding. Boehner also asked Sebelius if the new federal high-risk pools would exclude abortion coverage.
He says his questions remain unanswered.
"Millions of Americans care deeply about this aspect of the new law and its implementation, and no progress report is complete without detailed information about it,” Boehner wrote to Sebelius.
The conservative Family Research Council says the $160 million in taxpayer funds for Pennsylvania is the first known instance of direct federal funding of abortions through the new high-risk insurance pools.
The abortion funding for pool participants validates the arguments pro-life groups made throughout the health care debate – that taxpayer dollars will fund abortions, said Tom McClusky, senior vice president of the Family Research Council’s political action arm.
“For our efforts to remove the bill's abortion funding, we were called 'deceivers' by President Obama and 'liars' by his allies. Now we know who the true deceivers and liars really are,’ McClusky said.
"This action by the Obama Administration also exposes the worthlessness of President Obama's Executive Order that supposedly would prevent federal funding of abortion, but which both sides, including Planned Parenthood, agreed was unenforceable.
"While the American people deserve an apology from President Obama for his deception, we should only be satisfied when this Pennsylvania abortion funding is rescinded and the health care law repealed.
McClusky noted that the new health care law also includes $12.5 billion for community health centers, and $6 billion for co-ops, both of which can fund abortions. And some people will use tax credits to help them pay for plans that cover abortion.
Even before it’s fully implemented, the Democrats’ health care plan “is already being exposed as a high-taxing, poorly thought-out, and taxpayer-funding-of-abortion monstrosity,” McClusky said.
Republican leader Boehner says House Republicans would codify the Hyde amendment, thus prohibiting all authorized and appropriated federal funds from being used to pay for abortion. Under the Republican plan, any health plan that includes abortion coverage would not receive federal funds.