Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Al Doggity on April 05, 2016, 08:45:03 AM
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http://60abc.com/grandma-aged-78-couldnt-get-out-of-chair-now-she-deadlifts-225lb-weights-in-the-gym/
Okay, so not entirely useless and ,admittedly, this is something an almost 80-year-old woman should be proud of. But as I've said in the past, good deadlift numbers are not really a gauge of strength. Her numbers on every other exercise are probably exactly what you'd expect from a senior citizen.
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All drugs. Dead by 90. If she keeps that reckless lifting up she'll end up like Ronnie Coleman in her old age.
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(http://les-pingouins.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/spock.jpg)
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If the deadlift isn't a good gauge of strength, than what single exercise is?
The deadlift is a somewhat simple lift and one that uses almost all the major muscle groups - that's why it's considered by many to be the best test of strength. .
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If the deadlift isn't a good gauge of strength, than what single exercise is?
The deadlift is a somewhat simple lift and one that uses almost all the major muscle groups - that's why it's considered by many to be the best test of strength. .
Hammer Strength presses.
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If the deadlift isn't a good gauge of strength, than what single exercise is?
The deadlift is a somewhat simple lift and one that uses almost all the major muscle groups - that's why it's considered by many to be the best test of strength. .
A post by me from another thread:
Like I said in my previous post, I've heard that dl supposedly has so many benefits which is why I stuck it out til at least 5 plates. I just don't see much evidence of that. 90% of the time when I see a guy who benches regularly and has a big bench, he has a good chest. 90% of the time, a guy who chins regularly and can do 15+ reps has a good taper. Having a big deadlift does not indicate anything. It doesn't suggest you are strong in other exercises- even back or leg exercises. You can be a dedicated deadlifter and still have a totally shitty body. It might be an exaggeration to say there are no benefits, but for me, when I made deadlifting a regular part of my routine, it seemed like I would go backwards if I focused on deadlifts. I got so much wider and thicker and stronger and a more dramatic taper with barbell rows. If I skipped rows for two sessions my dl and row would both go down. If I skipped dls but did rows, my dl would at least be stable and rows would still increase.
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I do see a lot of tiny tits do respectable dl's, yet can't even do a 60lb dumbbell press.
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A post by me from another thread:
Well, I think some lifts suit certain individuals better than others. For instance, squats are a great exercise but there are some (such as myself) who always have difficulty nailing the technique and therefore, didn't benefit from the lift as much as others did.
What you said about deadlifts in regards to physique could be said about any lift imo.
However, if a guy can deadlift big numbers, he usually has strong overall muscle density and impressive athletic ability. Pretty much every top strength athlete will be judged on their deadlift, more so than on any other lift. There are many WSM competitors with average (in context) bench numbers, but there isn't one with a poor pull.
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Well, I think some lifts suit certain individuals better than others. For instance, squats are a great exercise but there are some (such as myself) who always have difficulty nailing the technique and therefore, didn't benefit from the lift as much as others did.
What you said about deadlifts in regards to physique could be said about any lift imo.
However, if a guy can deadlift big numbers, he usually has strong overall muscle density and impressive athletic ability. Pretty much every top strength athlete will be judged on their deadlift, more so than on any other lift. There are many WSM competitors with average (in context) bench numbers, but there isn't one with a poor pull.
I have never seen a guy at any gym I've worked out at who does regular bench with respectable weight and doesn't have good arms or chest. The same goes with most bodybuilding staples: anyone who does them regularly with decent weight has a physique that reflects that. You can do heavy dls twice a week for a year and no one would ever guess you worked out.
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I feel better with reagular deadlifts but don't know to what extent doing them translates to overall fitness.
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I have never seen a guy at any gym I've worked out at who does regular bench with respectable weight and doesn't have good arms or chest. The same goes with most bodybuilding staples: anyone who does them regularly with decent weight has a physique that reflects that. You can do heavy dls twice a week for a year and no one would ever guess you worked out.
Because the deadlift doesn't really target a specific muscle group (or more importantly, none of the beach muscles), it may not have the same noticeable BB effect that a more isolation movement (like a curl or press) has.
However, in terms of strength, it is probably the best all round indicator due to the sheer amount of muscles which have to work. Like I said, you wouldn't be able to find me a single top strongman with a below average deadlift.
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Because the deadlift doesn't really target a specific muscle group (or more importantly, none of the beach muscles), it may not have the same noticeable BB effect that a more isolation movement (like a curl or press) has.
However, in terms of strength, it is probably the best all round indicator due to the sheer amount of muscles which have to work. Like I said, you wouldn't be able to find me a single top strongman with a below average deadlift.
This is a quote from me from another thread:
I feel like my deadlift gains don't translate to other exercises. When my barbell row increases, so do chinups and biceps exercises. When my shoulder press increases, so does chest. I noticed I was at a sticking point with deadlifts and I got past that sticking point by increasing my squat. I don't feel like deadlifts helped my squats.
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Test of strength is standing shoulder press. Anyone that can do BW with that is strong.
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This is a quote from me from another thread:
I feel like my deadlift gains don't translate to other exercises. When my barbell row increases, so do chinups and biceps exercises. When my shoulder press increases, so does chest. I noticed I was at a sticking point with deadlifts and I got past that sticking point by increasing my squat. I don't feel like deadlifts helped my squats.
I think the issue with the deadlift is that as a movement, it isn't really comparable to any other type of exercise that we perform. It's quite a unique exercise in our training program.
On the other hand, a barbell row for instance actually has some similarities to other movements like a pull-up or curl, hence the transfer strength.
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most people get fuck all out of deadlifts as they more or less drop the bar, most of the benefit is in the negative, control it (not as dangerous as they say if are sensible with the weight) and see the benefits, done in this manner for me they are unbeatable for traps, lower back and forearm development.
Also keep back healthy and injury free
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Many exercises are overrated and pointless! Examlple, You should never do more than once set of bench on chest days!
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Deadlifts if done for reps while defiantly build muscle in the traps, back and hamstrings. Especially variations like snatch grip deads and stiff legs.
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Many exercises are overrated and pointless! Examlple, You should never do more than once set of bench on chest days!
Please elaborate on this profoundly stupid statement?
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They aren't "the" gauge of strength to people who say shit like that for any other reason that they're pretty much the least desired movement in the gym. They are the thing that you'll hear the most excuses about (and possibly the most injuries due to, also). Therefore, they're typically the most romanticised movement in the eyes of those who see fit to designate "the" exercise.
I would agree that they don't translate to much but neither does a big squat really translate much to a big bench or vice versa.
People who deadlift well might not "look" like they work out, but they all have a thick back for their weight. All of them have a base physique which reminds me of a rock climber.
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Deadlifts if done for reps while defiantly build muscle in the traps, back and hamstrings. Especially variations like snatch grip deads and stiff legs.
The revenge of Broscience.
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Deadlifts are useless says the guy who can't deadlift.
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Started doing DLs seriously after suggestions here, for my lower back development, it was a single core exercise that I've always skipped. I must say I'm surprised at how well can feel my lower back being worked after few sets of dls. Def gonna keep it in my regimen from now on.
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If the deadlift isn't a good gauge of strength, than what single exercise is?
The deadlift is a somewhat simple lift and one that uses almost all the major muscle groups - that's why it's considered by many to be the best test of strength. .
Barbell curls in a power rack.
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Hammer Strength presses.
With 4 plates a side
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Then don't do them.
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I would agree that they don't translate to much but neither does a big squat really translate much to a big bench or vice versa.
But a big squat does improve your leg presses and extensions and any other exercise that requires leg strength- even running. Deadlifts don't really improve anything for me, while improving on other exercises improves my deadlift. Improvement on shrugs, deadlift goes up, improvement on rows or squats, deadlift goes up. I can go weeks without deadlifting and maintain a decent dl as long as I am hitting everything else hard. I started an intense dl program a little while back so I could back off of squats and I couldn't believe how much my squat had dropped after just 3 weeks ( 6 sessions). I was doing lighter high volume machine work. Meanwhile, my dl was at a sticking point. After 2 leg sessions, my dl went up a plate.
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I didn't do DL for years then finally added them and improved my back and hams but mostly traps.
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From a sporting perspective, and perhaps a quality of life perspective, the deadlift and the overhead press are the most beneficial. The bench, and really most of the isolation movements rank toward the bottom.
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Makes sense.
People who can pull 700-plus off the ground are usually skinny weaklings or at best, of average strength.
Sure.
Just as a challenge find me a dozen men who can pull over 500 who don't look like they lift or are not at least decently strong in other lifts.
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Makes sense.
People who can pull 700-plus off the ground are usually skinny weaklings or at best, of average strength.
Sure.
Just as a challenge find me a dozen men who can pull over 500 who don't look like they lift or are not at least decently strong in other lifts.
I posted a link to an 80-year old woman who deadlifts 225 in the opening post.
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From a sporting perspective, and perhaps a quality of life perspective, the deadlift and the overhead press are the most beneficial. The bench, and really most of the isolation movements rank toward the bottom.
These are precisely the sort of vague "benefits" I am talking about.
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Absurd. Deadlifts are the single best exercise in the gym IMO. Right next to squats. I'll be doing them until I die.
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not sure how you plan to suplex an assailant with a weak lower back
good luck defending your household from intruders
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These are precisely the sort of vague "benefits" I am talking about.
Look at the types of things seniors, etc.... have trouble doing (hand strength issues, getting up from chairs, carrying and supporting loads, etc....). Those two exercises, plus some cardio and mobility work will help with most listed. Now, if one wants to argue squat vs. deadlift, you could go with a trap bar deadlift standing on a block, which makes it a far more quad dominate (squatty) exercise.
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Deadlifts are useless says the guy who can't deadlift.
From a bbing stand point, meaning you just want to look good and have a pretty body, then DL aren't necessary. But from a functional point of view, nothing beats the DL. If you are a wrestler, Jiu-Jitsu guy, work in a warehouse, or just helping your friend move, DL rule.
You rarely do a bench press type movement in real life, picking up and putting down things is one of the most common movement we do in everyday life.
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I posted a link to an 80-year old woman who deadlifts 225 in the opening post.
Which means she's strong.
You're using a sample size of exactly one (yourself) and applying subjective criteria.
They're not useless. They strengthen the entire posterior chain, grip etc....which translates into a plethora of other things.
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(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/2764493/narrow-upright-row-o.gif)
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Which means she's strong.
You're using a sample size of exactly one (yourself) and applying subjective criteria.
They're not useless. They strengthen the entire posterior chain, grip etc....which translates into a plethora of other things.
Don't forget grip strength. Another very useful and functional strength that doesn't really have any cosmetic purposes for bbing
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I switched Dead for RDL's because unlike most getbiggers, I'm a vain, shallow, "cosmetically motivated" fellow - Romanians may not be hitting quite as many muscles as Conventional (or sumo) but I feel I get more bang for my CNS buck.
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I switched Dead for RDL's because unlike most getbiggers, I'm a vain, shallow, "cosmetically motivated" fellow - Romanians may not be hitting quite as many muscles as Conventional (or sumo) but I feel I get more bang for my CNS buck.
Actually, I think RDL are better and more functional that regular Deads. You rarely, if ever, pick up something in the traditional DL over/under grip. I've been doing RDL for so long that I just take it for granted when one is talking about Deads.
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Never got how deads work upperback, always felt it in my hams/glute/lower back. Even trying rackpull still hits my lower back and not my upper.
Stiff legged deads are handsdown the best hams/glute exercise there is, very dangerous tho.
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http://60abc.com/grandma-aged-78-couldnt-get-out-of-chair-now-she-deadlifts-225lb-weights-in-the-gym/
Okay, so not entirely useless and ,admittedly, this is something an almost 80-year-old woman should be proud of. But as I've said in the past, good deadlift numbers are not really a gauge of strength. Her numbers on every other exercise are probably exactly what you'd expect from a senior citizen.
So you are basically saying that you don't know shit about the training? Well, that clarifies things quite a lot ;D
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Never got how deads work upperback, always felt it in my hams/glute/lower back. Even trying rackpull still hits my lower back and not my upper.
Stiff legged deads are handsdown the best hams/glute exercise there is, very dangerous tho.
SLDL are not more dangerous than regular DL's in general, it is for certain people. As just any compound movement, there's greater variations because your entire morphology is involved. Nobody does squats, bench presses and DL's exactly the same way. No matter how you break it down, it will never be purely analytical. I personally only do SLDL as I've never been able to do a regular DL properly without fear of getting injured. Same thing as far as the results are concerned: I get good results on hams, traps, post delts and lower back but no glute results while you or others will have different results.
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Actually, I think RDL are better and more functional that regular Deads. You rarely, if ever, pick up something in the traditional DL over/under grip. I've been doing RDL for so long that I just take it for granted when one is talking about Deads.
Many perform deads without the over/under grip, or neutral grip on hex bar.
But agree RDLs are fantastic.
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Why do we have so many crying pussies on this board? People don't like to do deadlifts because they take a lot of work.
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I do higher repetition trap bar deadlifts in my routine.
I utilize a lot of control on the negative.
I believe my trapezius, rhomboids, forearms, lower back and hamstrings are better for it.
I also believe it tremendously helps my golf swing. More than squats.
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Many perform deads without the over/under grip, or neutral grip on hex bar.
But agree RDLs are fantastic.
Hex bar would be a great alternative. I've just never trained at a gym that had one.
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Hammer Strength presses.
Hahaha
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Why do we have so many crying pussies on this board? People don't like to do deadlifts because they take a lot of work.
Exactly. Because someone doesn't like something they make up reasons as to why it shouldn't be done.
If you could do only one exercise to enhance real world functional ability it should be the DL.
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With 4 plates a side
Yeah that's true. That's heavy for reps even when juiced up.
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Hex bar would be a great alternative. I've just never trained at a gym that had one.
I was able to purchase a 56 lb version for only 75 bucks of craigslist.
I feel they put the spine in a better position and put less strain on my biceps. I like the conventional DL, but am not completing, so I use this exclusively at the moment.
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Which means she's strong.
You're using a sample size of exactly one (yourself) and applying subjective criteria.
They're not useless. They strengthen the entire posterior chain, grip etc....which translates into a plethora of other things.
I didn't claim to be a research facility, but personal strength gains/losses aren't subjective criteria. When I used myself as an example, it was anecdotal but specific. And my specificity stands in stark contrast to what most people who are proponents of the deadlift claim its benefits are, which was the point of this thread. Your post is a perfect example of that.
As I posted earlier, you can have a guy who deadlifts regularly and puts up decent numbers and it wouldn't be unusual for that work not to be reflected in his physique whatsoever. The post you quoted from me was in response to another poster who asked me to show him some guys who were decently strong in the deadlift who didn't look like they lifted. You can find a good number of youtube videos of old women and old men doing 2+ plate dls. You can find children dl'ing and even slim asian women in high heels pulling 3+ plates. It's much rarer to find vids of old women benching or rowing or chinning or squatting. That's because deading is largely about technique in a way that other strength movements aren't. The senior from my opening post likely doesn't have a squat or row that is nearly as impressive as her deadlift and these are exercises that should be affected by strengthening the muscles she uses in a deadlift.
If you take issue with the title I chose for this thread, I admitted in the first post that I was exaggerating. Deadlifts aren't completely useless. They are beneficial in the way that virtually any physical activity is beneficial in comparison to remaining sedentary. Yet, for an exercise that many people claim is the granddaddy of all exercises for serious lifters, its tangible benefits are suspiciously nebulous. Improved numbers on virtually any back exercise that is not a deadlift will result in improved numbers on virtually every other back exercise. Improved numbers on virtually every leg exercise besides dl will result in improvements on all other leg exercises. You can become proficient at deadlifting without seeing any significant improvement to your physique or a gain in strength in other exercises.
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From a bbing stand point, meaning you just want to look good and have a pretty body, then DL aren't necessary. But from a functional point of view, nothing beats the DL. If you are a wrestler, Jiu-Jitsu guy, work in a warehouse, or just helping your friend move, DL rule.
You rarely do a bench press type movement in real life, picking up and putting down things is one of the most common movement we do in everyday life.
Disagree with the majority of this post. Picking up and putting down is a common movement, but not in a manner that's similar to deadlifts and certainly not at a weight where regular, fairly taxing deadlifting would make a difference in the average person's quality of life. The examples you use in your post are either specialized or infrequent. I'm trying to think of some circumstances in which the average person I know could use the alleged benefits of regular deadlifting during the course of a typical day and the only examples I can think of are my wife and the other mothers of toddlers we know. I say mothers specifically, as the fathers rarely complain about the weight of the kids after holding them for long stretches. As for rarely using bench pressing movements, gotta disagree there, too. There's a large glass security door in my office building that you have to go through to get to the bay of elevators that stops at our floor. It's a very heavy door and you constantly see people struggling with it. Whenever I am away from the gym (and bench pressing) for an extended period, I really notice the weight of that door. There's a restaurant called "bread and butter" around the corner where I eat lunch pretty frequently, It has the same door issue. So for me, on a daily basis, the bench press provides a more practical benefit than the deadlift. Obviously, everyone's lifestyle is different, but that's actually the point I'm trying to drive home. (Not that presses are better)
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Disagree with the majority of this post. Picking up and putting down is a common movement, but not in a manner that's similar to deadlifts and certainly not at a weight where regular, fairly taxing deadlifting would make a difference in the average person's quality of life. The examples you use in your post are either specialized or infrequent. I'm trying to think of some circumstances in which the average person I know could use the alleged benefits of regular deadlifting during the course of a typical day and the only examples I can think of are my wife and the other mothers of toddlers we know. I say mothers specifically, as the fathers rarely complain about the weight of the kids after holding them for long stretches. As for rarely using bench pressing movements, gotta disagree there, too. There's a large glass security door in my office building that you have to go through to get to the bay of elevators that stops at our floor. It's a very heavy door and you constantly see people struggling with it. Whenever I am away from the gym (and bench pressing) for an extended period, I really notice the weight of that door. There's a restaurant called "bread and butter" around the corner where I eat lunch pretty frequently, It has the same door issue. So for me, on a daily basis, the bench press provides a more practical benefit than the deadlift. Obviously, everyone's lifestyle is different, but that's actually the point I'm trying to drive home. (Not that presses are better)
If it's too hard for you, just quit.
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I switched Dead for RDL's because unlike most getbiggers, I'm a vain, shallow, "cosmetically motivated" fellow - Romanians may not be hitting quite as many muscles as Conventional (or sumo) but I feel I get more bang for my CNS buck.
I shitcanned conventional deadlifts two years ago and stick with Romanian deadlifts considering the deadlift applies an enormous amount of tension throughout the whole body while targeting none! The range of motion is small. And because I am as shallow as you, I stick with things that work the muscle.
Trap-bar deadlifts are great too.
I forgot to mention that I don't like the shitty feeling I had from regular deadlifts for three days after doing them .
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Disagree with the majority of this post. Picking up and putting down is a common movement, but not in a manner that's similar to deadlifts and certainly not at a weight where regular, fairly taxing deadlifting would make a difference in the average person's quality of life. The examples you use in your post are either specialized or infrequent. I'm trying to think of some circumstances in which the average person I know could use the alleged benefits of regular deadlifting during the course of a typical day and the only examples I can think of are my wife and the other mothers of toddlers we know. I say mothers specifically, as the fathers rarely complain about the weight of the kids after holding them for long stretches. As for rarely using bench pressing movements, gotta disagree there, too. There's a large glass security door in my office building that you have to go through to get to the bay of elevators that stops at our floor. It's a very heavy door and you constantly see people struggling with it. Whenever I am away from the gym (and bench pressing) for an extended period, I really notice the weight of that door. There's a restaurant called "bread and butter" around the corner where I eat lunch pretty frequently, It has the same door issue. So for me, on a daily basis, the bench press provides a more practical benefit than the deadlift. Obviously, everyone's lifestyle is different, but that's actually the point I'm trying to drive home. (Not that presses are better)
Haha this has to be a troll
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Haha this has to be a troll
??? Not sure which part of that post seems troll-worthy. Nothing too crazy in there. Maybe you misunderstood it? ???
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??? Not sure which part of that post seems troll-worthy. Nothing too crazy in there. Maybe you misunderstood it? ???
The bench pressing the heavy door cannot be serious
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Disagree with the majority of this post. Picking up and putting down is a common movement, but not in a manner that's similar to deadlifts and certainly not at a weight where regular, fairly taxing deadlifting would make a difference in the average person's quality of life. The examples you use in your post are either specialized or infrequent. I'm trying to think of some circumstances in which the average person I know could use the alleged benefits of regular deadlifting during the course of a typical day and the only examples I can think of are my wife and the other mothers of toddlers we know. I say mothers specifically, as the fathers rarely complain about the weight of the kids after holding them for long stretches. As for rarely using bench pressing movements, gotta disagree there, too. There's a large glass security door in my office building that you have to go through to get to the bay of elevators that stops at our floor. It's a very heavy door and you constantly see people struggling with it. Whenever I am away from the gym (and bench pressing) for an extended period, I really notice the weight of that door. There's a restaurant called "bread and butter" around the corner where I eat lunch pretty frequently, It has the same door issue. So for me, on a daily basis, the bench press provides a more practical benefit than the deadlift. Obviously, everyone's lifestyle is different, but that's actually the point I'm trying to drive home. (Not that presses are better)
Invest in one of those football sleds and you will really be able to impress people with your ability to open a door.
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The bench pressing the heavy door cannot be serious
??? Not really sure what the issue is, but... OK
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??? Not really sure what the issue is, but... OK
Haha ok I believe your serious
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I kind of get what you are saying as far as physique goes. I rarely (if ever) do them now. It's not lazy to me to skip out on an exercise that can drain you an incredible amount and therefore make you underperform on other exercises. Id rather go for less draining exercises and get the same results. If I do do them it is pretty light (10-12 reps-never to failure).
I can say that they are probably the best exercise for traps, IMO. Much better then shrugs. I don't want giant traps, though, so actually stay away from trap exercises.
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I shitcanned conventional deadlifts two years ago and stick with Romanian deadlifts considering the deadlift applies an enormous amount of tension throughout the whole body while targeting none! The range of motion is small. And because I am as shallow as you, I stick with things that work the muscle.
Trap-bar deadlifts are great too.
I forgot to mention that I don't like the shitty feeling I had from regular deadlifts for three days after doing them .
What happens to all that tension if no muscle is targeted ???
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What happens to all that tension if no muscle is targeted ???
MODS PLEASE MOVE THIS SHIT THREAD TO THE TRAINING SECTION WHERE IT BELONGS
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I kind of get what you are saying as far as physique goes. I rarely (if ever) do them now. It's not lazy to me to skip out on an exercise that can drain you an incredible amount and therefore make you underperform on other exercises. Id rather go for less draining exercises and get the same results. If I do do them it is pretty light (10-12 reps-never to failure).
I can say that they are probably the best exercise for traps, IMO. Much better then shrugs. I don't want giant traps, though, so actually stay away from trap exercises.
If you're working out, it's not lazy. You're not required to do any particular exercises during a workout. I will do an hours worth of deadlifts before I do an hours worth of cardio. You don't need to justify not doing any exercise, much less one with negligible benefits. When I first started working out as a teen, I avoided doing squats and deadlifts for years because of fear of injury, not because they were too strenuous. I completely understand why people reflexively advocate deadlifts. It's repeated all the time how they are the best exercise, but when you really get down to discussing what they benefit, the only things you hear are grip strength, posterior chain,etc. things that other exercises are as good or better at hitting. And I get the defensiveness. If you move that much weight during an exercise without the aid of a machine and it exhausts you that much, then logically it seems like it must be doing a lot.
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MODS PLEASE MOVE THIS SHIT THREAD TO THE TRAINING SECTION WHERE IT BELONGS
This is the gossip and opinion board. This is an opinion thread, not a training thread. This thread is fine where it is.
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It's safe to say that anyone with a big deadlift invests considerable amount of time in training.
Highly doubt this isn't reflected in their physique.
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This is the gossip and opinion board. This is an opinion thread, not a training thread. This thread is fine where it is.
a SHIT opinion about TRAINING MOVE IT CHAOS!
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In terms of exercise: To what extent do people believe technique affects results?
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In terms of exercise: To what extent do people believe technique affects results?
I would argue it matters fuck all, too many people get hung up on 'technique'. If you're trying to maximize your pull for competition or whatever, sure.
But for the average gymrat it means fuck all to the point where moving weight in any way would yields results, regardless.
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I've not done dead-lifts for many years. When I did them though, I liked that they made me believe that I was stronger. Lifting heavy weights is a great ego booster. Whether dead-lifts alone actually build quality muscle is debatable. It seems to me when you do them in conjunction with other exercises, they are more beneficial. They are definitely a power lifter exercise.
I would add dead-lifts back into my routine if my grip weren't compromised by years of carpel tunnel problems in both hands. What I liked most about them was that they strengthened my lower back. These days I do good-mornings for lower back, sometimes with added weight and sometimes without and just for a maximum stretch with hands flat on the floor.
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I would add dead-lifts back into my routine if my grip weren't compromised by years of carpel tunnel problems in both hands. What I liked most about them was that they strengthened my lower back. These days I do good-mornings for lower back, sometimes with added weight and sometimes without and just for a maximum stretch with hands flat on the floor.
Hyperextensions with added weight (barbell behind the neck or deadlift off the floor) help a great deal in isolation. Also focusses much more on the lowerback rather than including the glutes if done correctly. Worth a try, imo they give a better pump/feeling of soreness than any other (lower)back exercise.
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Disagree with the majority of this post. Picking up and putting down is a common movement, but not in a manner that's similar to deadlifts and certainly not at a weight where regular, fairly taxing deadlifting would make a difference in the average person's quality of life. The examples you use in your post are either specialized or infrequent. I'm trying to think of some circumstances in which the average person I know could use the alleged benefits of regular deadlifting during the course of a typical day and the only examples I can think of are my wife and the other mothers of toddlers we know. I say mothers specifically, as the fathers rarely complain about the weight of the kids after holding them for long stretches. As for rarely using bench pressing movements, gotta disagree there, too. There's a large glass security door in my office building that you have to go through to get to the bay of elevators that stops at our floor. It's a very heavy door and you constantly see people struggling with it. Whenever I am away from the gym (and bench pressing) for an extended period, I really notice the weight of that door. There's a restaurant called "bread and butter" around the corner where I eat lunch pretty frequently, It has the same door issue. So for me, on a daily basis, the bench press provides a more practical benefit than the deadlift. Obviously, everyone's lifestyle is different, but that's actually the point I'm trying to drive home. (Not that presses are better)
You are being wildly bias here. Pushing open a door has very little to do with the pressing movement done in a bench. When you open a door you lean into it and use your legs. Take note the next time you are opening that door. If you are pushing it with your arms with hands starting at your chest and extending past the half way point you are opening the door wrong.
And you don't have to exactly duplicate a DL or RDL for it to aid in any movement where you pick up a weight. DL strengthens all the major muscles used when picking things up: back, legs, hams, grip.
And holding a baby is more of an isometric position not aided much by DL but constantly picking up and putting down a baby is.
But like I said, you don't need Deads to be a bber and to look good but, as far as functional ability irl, nothing beats it. But you don't like Deads. I get it. It's a hard movement that real drains you. You are more concerned about pretty muscles. That still puts you ahead of the game than the majority of the fatsos out there. And AAA will change your tire for you.
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I kind of get what you are saying as far as physique goes. I rarely (if ever) do them now. It's not lazy to me to skip out on an exercise that can drain you an incredible amount and therefore make you underperform on other exercises. Id rather go for less draining exercises and get the same results. If I do do them it is pretty light (10-12 reps-never to failure).
I can say that they are probably the best exercise for traps, IMO. Much better then shrugs. I don't want giant traps, though, so actually stay away from trap exercises.
It is draining and does affect my intensity for the rest of the workout. That's why I have been doing them last for years. I don't go heavy but just want to be conditioned in that type of picking up and putting down heavy objects.
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It's safe to say that anyone with a big deadlift invests considerable amount of time in training.
Highly doubt this isn't reflected in their physique.
Disagree.
Okay, I get that a powerlifting routine is different from a daily fitness/bodybuilding routine, but you don't typically see guys who look like this putting up impressive numbers on bp or squat.
This guy's physique isn't bad, but there is such a massive disparity between the impressiveness of his bench and deadlift that, IMO, it goes beyond the idea that some people are just stronger on certain lifts.
He can pull 600 lbs but never goes above 2 plates bench press.
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You are being wildly bias here. Pushing open a door has very little to do with the pressing movement done in a bench. When you open a door you lean into it and use your legs. Take note the next time you are opening that door. If you are pushing it with your arms with hands starting at your chest and extending past the half way point you are opening the door wrong.
And you don't have to exactly duplicate a DL or RDL for it to aid in any movement where you pick up a weight. DL strengthens all the major muscles used when picking things up: back, legs, hams, grip.
And holding a baby is more of an isometric position not aided much by DL but constantly picking up and putting down a baby is.
But like I said, you don't need Deads to be a bber and to look good but, as far as functional ability irl, nothing beats it. But you don't like Deads. I get it. It's a hard movement that real drains you. You are more concerned about pretty muscles. That still puts you ahead of the game than the majority of the fatsos out there. And AAA will change your tire for you.
Funny how you can acknowledge that dls can aid in movements that don't exactly mimic their range of motion, yet believe that bench presses can only aid in a very narrow, specific range of motion. There is no wrong way to open a door, at least when it comes to where your hands are positioned in relation to your chest. But the description of opening a heavier door is just wrong. You only have to resort to relying on lower body strength if you don't have enough upper body strength. And increased upper body strength/ pushing power categorically aids in that.
I didn't say anything about dl only helping in daily activities that duplicate the trajectory of a deadlift. What I did say is that I don't think there is any overwhelming benefit from it for the majority of average people. Like I said earlier, any activity is preferable to being sedentary, but most people aren't lifting or moving heavy items often enough where regular, intense deadlifting will actually have an affect on quality of life.
Me thinking DLs aren't an effective exercise has nothing to do with them being hard or even me not liking them. I love working out and performing deadlifts is not less appealing to me than other exercises.I haven't limited them in my workouts because they are hard, I've done it because their effectiveness is so questionable. Even after dropping them regularly, I still occasionally do them and my strength on them has not dropped precipitously. The last time I did them about 2 weeks ago, I pulled 4 1/4 plates for 8 reps at the end of a workout. I maintained a fairly consistent strength level because of heavy back and leg work. I would never expect to keep any gains on back and leg exercises by focusing on dls. I think one of the reasons people get so defensive about how useful and essential deads are is because the numbers are such an ego boost. Yet almost all proponents are vague about what the benefits of dl'ing are. That's just not the case with other exercises.
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Funny how you can acknowledge that dls can aid in movements that don't exactly mimic their range of motion, yet believe that bench presses can only aid in a very narrow, specific range of motion. There is no wrong way to open a door, at least when it comes to where your hands are positioned in relation to your chest. But the description of opening a heavier door is just wrong. You only have to resort to relying on lower body strength if you don't have enough upper body strength. And increased upper body strength/ pushing power categorically aids in that.
I didn't say anything about dl only helping in daily activities that duplicate the trajectory of a deadlift. What I did say is that I don't think there is any overwhelming benefit from it for the majority of average people. Like I said earlier, any activity is preferable to being sedentary, but most people aren't lifting or moving heavy items often enough where regular, intense deadlifting will actually have an affect on quality of life.
Me thinking DLs aren't an effective exercise has nothing to do with them being hard or even me not liking them. I love working out and performing deadlifts is not less appealing to me than other exercises.I haven't limited them in my workouts because they are hard, I've done it because their effectiveness is so questionable. Even after dropping them regularly, I still occasionally do them and my strength on them has not dropped precipitously. The last time I did them about 2 weeks ago, I pulled 4 1/4 plates for 8 reps at the end of a workout. I maintained a fairly consistent strength level because of heavy back and leg work. I would never expect to keep any gains on back and leg exercises by focusing on dls. I think one of the reasons people get so defensive about how useful and essential deads are is because the numbers are such an ego boost. Yet almost all proponents are vague about what the benefits of dl'ing are. That's just not the case with other exercises.
In my over ten years on this board this is the first I think I can speak on the behalf of everybody else on this thread. No gives a crap whether you DL or not, or even what you think of the DL. This thread would be long dead if it wasn't for the fact that you spread so much misinformation.
First of all, there is such a thing as opening a door the wrong way. You can pull when it should be pushed for one thing. But more pertinent to the discussion is how you open the door. Try to push open a door near the hinges rather than the edge of the door. Huge difference in leverage. You can't budge even the lightest of door by pushing at the hinge. And, as with all things in moving or lifting something, you want to employ your legs as much as possible. If some is pushing a heavy door open by pushing with their arms and not leaning into it they are simply opening the door wrong.
And considering that the back is one of the most common problems people have and a weak in our structural design, having a strong back will prove to be very useful and improve the quality of life for anybody. You certainly use your back more, whether it's picking up your dropped pen or lifting an a/c out of your truck, than you would doing a bench press movement.
And doing some serious DL in the gym is going to get you in much better physical condition than doing the bench press.
You should just say that doing DL is not a top priority for those primarily interest in developing pretty muscles and just leave it at that. Trying to put forth the argument that the bench press is a more useful and functional movement than the DL is a losing proposition.
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To deadlift or not to deadlift, that is the question.
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In my over ten years on this board this is the first I think I can speak on the behalf of everybody else on this thread. No gives a crap whether you DL or not, or even what you think of the DL. This thread would be long dead if it wasn't for the fact that you spread so much misinformation.
LOL so you've responded to a thread multiple times that you don't care about and you think no one else cares about, all because you wanted to prevent the spread of misinformation. How noble of you!
First of all, there is such a thing as opening a door the wrong way. You can pull when it should e pushed for one thing. But more pertinent to the discussion is how you open the door. Try to push open a door near the hinges rather than the edge of the door. Huge difference in leverage. You can't budge even the lightest of door by pushing at the hinge.
I knew you would be tempted to use absurdist examples like that, which is why that part from my previous quote was phrased like this:
There is no wrong way to open a door, at least when it comes to where your hands are positioned in relation to your chest.
Beyond that, I'm not gonna respond to that line of argument anymore. You're arguing about whether or not there is a right way to open a door. You've either reached a point where you are willing to argue any detail, no matter how petty or you are just looking to fill your posts up with random words.
You should just say that doing DL is not a top priority for those primarily interest in developing pretty muscles and just leave it at that. Trying to put forth the argument that the bench press is a more useful and functional movement than the DL is a losing proposition.
As for that point, I wrote this in a previous post:
Obviously, everyone's lifestyle is different, but that's actually the point I'm trying to drive home. (Not that presses are better)
If you honestly feel like posting in this thread is a burden and of no interest to you, then feel free to stop. Or at least stop responding to me because you're either not arguing against points I've actually made or you're choosing not to make substantive points. Even after multiple posts in this thread, you've yet to explain why the deadlift is so great. I've explained IN DETAIL, WITH VIDEO SUPPORT, why I don't think it's great. You've used the same vague language about posterior chains and grip strength, yada yada yada that everyone else who reflexively regurgitates how great the deadlift is uses.
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LOL so you've responded to a thread multiple times that you don't care about and you think no one else cares about, all because you wanted to prevent the spread of misinformation. How noble of you!
I knew you would be tempted to use absurdist examples like that, which is why that part from my previous quote was phrased like this:
There is no wrong way to open a door, at least when it comes to where your hands are positioned in relation to your chest.
Beyond that, I'm not gonna respond to that line of argument anymore. You're arguing about whether or not there is a right way to open a door. You've either reached a point where you are willing to argue any detail, no matter how petty or you are just looking to fill your posts up with random words.
As for that point, I wrote this in a previous post:
Obviously, everyone's lifestyle is different, but that's actually the point I'm trying to drive home. (Not that presses are better)
If you honestly feel like posting in this thread is a burden and of no interest to you, then feel free to stop. Or at least stop responding to me because you're either not arguing against points I've actually made or you're choosing not to make substantive points. Even after multiple posts in this thread, you've yet to explain why the deadlift is so great. I've explained IN DETAIL, WITH VIDEO SUPPORT, why I don't think it's great. You've used the same vague language about posterior chains and grip strength, yada yada yada that everyone else who reflexively regurgitates how great the deadlift is uses.
It is my main mission in life to leave this world a little bit better place than I found it.
Thank me later.
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Haha this has to be a troll
No, it is just another getbig- idiot, who think he has a vision but what he really have, is bad case of constipation. Shit is filling his head and he think it is an idea. It is quite common among these brats, who think they know it all while all they know is crap what they read from the internet forums ;D
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I've had epic gains from deadlifts. Glutes and hammies mostly. I know a lot love them for back but not me. Hamstrings all the way. I like all varieties as well. One time I was bent over getting ready to lift and some crossfit junkie was fucking around with a wood dowel behind me. He was fucking around and somehow it went between my legs and he hit one of my nuts. Hard. I was crying. I couldn't even finish my workout. He was plenty apologetic but every time I deadlift I triple check to see who's around and what they're doing.
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To deadlift or not to deadlift, that is the question.
Whether 'tis nobler..
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I've had epic gains from deadlifts. Glutes and hammies mostly. I know a lot love them for back but not me. Hamstrings all the way. I like all varieties as well. One time I was bent over getting ready to lift and some crossfit junkie was fucking around with a wood dowel behind me. He was fucking around and somehow it went between my legs and he hit one of my nuts. Hard. I was crying. I couldn't even finish my workout. He was plenty apologetic but every time I deadlift I triple check to see who's around and what they're doing.
Gotta admit this post took a turn that I wasn't expecting.
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Crossfit junkies aren't trustworthy.
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Anyone that claims deadlifts are useless is just misinformed.... Next to squats, they are one of the best exercises a person can do. Those and reverse hyper extensions. You'll have perfect posture, and a strong and injury free back and posterior chain.
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Anyone that claims deadlifts are useless is just misinformed.... Next to squats, they are one of the best exercises a person can do. Those and reverse hyper extensions. You'll have perfect posture, and a strong and injury free back and posterior chain.
Plus they'll improve grip strength and they also have a whole host of other undefinable benefits across other applications, right?
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Anyone that claims deadlifts are useless is just misinformed.... Next to squats, they are one of the best exercises a person can do. Those and reverse hyper extensions. You'll have perfect posture, and a strong and injury free back and posterior chain.
Can't you get similar benefits from doing heavy barbell, dumbbell and t-bar rows, then doing hyperextensions?
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Can't you get similar benefits from doing heavy barbell, dumbbell and t-bar rows, then doing hyperextensions?
Yes, just like these internet bodybuilding gurus do :
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I'm more into compound movements these days but did seem to grow well using bent rows.
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Yes, just like these internet bodybuilding gurus do :
What's your point? Look, I can do the same thing. I can post videos of people with poor deadlifting form. What exactly does it prove? Your videos don't prove that those exercises are not effective. :-\ :-\ :-\
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I'm more into compound movements these days but did seem to grow well using bent rows.
You don't consider rows a compound movement?
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(http://cdn-flex1.heartyhosting.com/sites/flexonline.com/files/styles/node_image/public/13flex_ronnie_back_inset-1.jpg?itok=WZOGWmw6)
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The same people too lazy to deadlift are the same ones that can't squat because of a mysterious knee injury.
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(http://cdn-flex1.heartyhosting.com/sites/flexonline.com/files/styles/node_image/public/13flex_ronnie_back_inset-1.jpg?itok=WZOGWmw6)
Phil Heath wishes he had a back like that. :D :D
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Phil Heath wishes he had a back like that. :D :D
Once he gets his 9th sandow, he won't care.
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Once he gets his 9th sandow, he won't care.
Well, first he has to get there. Until then, he wishes he had a back like that. :D :D
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You don't consider rows a compound movement?
I don't consider them in the same class as deadlift.
Rows cause good growth for me but I feel better with deadlifts and they're more consistent with my current fitness goals. Aside from some close-grip bench presses after traditional bench, I don't do isolated movements (i.e., curls) any longer. I also don't go much over 345 with deadlifts because that's about what I can do with no belt, straps
The days of being a gym rat are over, LOL! I work out 5-6 times a week and do light (or what Grape Ape would call very fucking gay) cardio. :)
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http://60abc.com/grandma-aged-78-couldnt-get-out-of-chair-now-she-deadlifts-225lb-weights-in-the-gym/
Okay, so not entirely useless and ,admittedly, this is something an almost 80-year-old woman should be proud of. But as I've said in the past, good deadlift numbers are not really a gauge of strength. Her numbers on every other exercise are probably exactly what you'd expect from a senior citizen.
All gauges of strength are subjective. She credits deadlifting for her new ability to walk and move around properly. To anyone in such a predicament that would be profoundly useful and significant.
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The same people too lazy to deadlift are the same ones that can't squat because of a mysterious knee injury.
Or just WEAK
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Hyperextensions with added weight (barbell behind the neck or deadlift off the floor) help a great deal in isolation. Also focusses much more on the lowerback rather than including the glutes if done correctly. Worth a try, imo they give a better pump/feeling of soreness than any other (lower)back exercise.
Yeah, I like doing hyperextensions and with added weight they are great. I hold a plate to my chest while doing them. This machine looks like an interesting take on hypers. There isn't one of this type at the gym I go to.
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That's more of a glute ham raise
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Do you want to BE strong or do you want to LOOK strong?
Isn't that what's really at the heart of this debate?
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That's more of a glute ham raise
I disagree. (Also with the picture).
It's entirely possible to almost exclusively work the lower back on these, so long as you emphasize leading with your upperbody, and not pulling yourself up by your legs/pushing against the machine with your legs. If done correctly, your legs are basically fixed in place and won't play a significant part in the movement. In the same way that you can isolate the lowerback doing 'goodmornings' by leading with your upperback instead of pushing your hips forward (sort of say).
I'm not sure whether my explanation is clear enough. But they work for me.
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I disagree. (Also with the picture).
It's entirely possible to almost exclusively work the lower back on these, so long as you emphasize leading with your upperbody, and not pulling yourself up by your legs/pushing against the machine with your legs. If done correctly, your legs are basically fixed in place and won't play a significant part in the movement. In the same way that you can isolate the lowerback doing 'goodmornings' by leading with your upperback instead of pushing your hips forward (sort of say).
I'm not sure whether my explanation is clear enough. But they work for me.
I understand the subtleties, boss. Not really arguing either way.
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Do you want to BE strong or do you want to LOOK strong?
Isn't that what's really at the heart of this debate?
Well, at the heart of the debate should be the question: "What are your fitness goals?" These fitness goals may have something to do with looking strong or being strong, or both, or neither (though, I don't think the answer is "neither." It will most likely be a combination of both and on a continuum). In other words, you can't ask such a dichotomous question because its hardly ever "be strong" or "look strong" with nothing in-between.
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Or just WEAK
What would being weak have to do with it? MOST people, not all, don't start off squatting 800 pounds. Most people have to start somewhere. If people never lifted a weight because they were weak, then they wouldn't do any exercises, since all lifts require the person to usually start at a lower weight when they first begin.
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What about functional fitness, SF1900?
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What about functional fitness, SF1900?
What about it?
I am not a certified personal trainer. I am just someone who likes to lift weights. Any answer I give will probably be incorrect from a scientific perspective. All I have are my personal experiences. Thus, I cannot accurately assert that deadlifts are superior to other exercises when it comes to functional fitness or any other related activity. My anecdotal evidence obviously comes with some biases (all personal experiences do).
I don't deadlift, and I have helped plenty of friends (and moved myself) move furniture and various items, etc. I never had a problem with any functionally related activities because I don't deadlift. However, I should also add that there was a time when I deadlifted ALL the time, so maybe I already built my "core." ??? ??? I don't have a clue. I did back the other day and my workout looked like this:
Wide Grip Chins
Barbell rows (underhand)
T-bar rows
Incline dumbbell rows
Pullovers
Behind the back lat pulldowns
Hyper-extensions.
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All gauges of strength are subjective. She credits deadlifting for her new ability to walk and move around properly. To anyone in such a predicament that would be profoundly useful and significant.
Of course it would be significant. It's great that her fitness routine has helped her and I admitted my title for this thread was an exaggeration . I don't agree that all gauges of strength are subjective (which isn't what I said about the deadlift nor does it really make sense, but I'll go with it). If you are strong on bench press, you are strong on almost all chest/ tricep exercises. If you are strong on squats, you are strong on almost all leg exercises. If someone feels that the deadlift helps them, I would never try to convince them not to do it. The point of this thread is that deadlifts have a reputation as the king of all exercises, but I think that is a myth. I think if you look at them objectively, as opposed to just repeating what you've read or heard, you see that they really aren't the all-encompassing workout so many people claim they are.
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Do you want to BE strong or do you want to LOOK strong?
Isn't that what's really at the heart of this debate?
No. I think most serious lifters want to be strong and look strong. The debate has been "what is the real value of deadlifts?"
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What would being weak have to do with it? MOST people, not all, don't start off squatting 800 pounds. Most people have to start somewhere. If people never lifted a weight because they were weak, then they wouldn't do any exercises, since all lifts require the person to usually start at a lower weight when they first begin.
Heck, when I first started doing squats, I could have used a pulley assist instead of resistance. ;D! Ever do body weight squats using good form and high reps? One can really get a good pump from these.
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I deadlifted today.
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I never got anything out of deadlifts so I never do them. I get plenty of lower back work from doing heavy barbell rows. Barbell rows are my favorite exercise for thickening your lower back, lower lats(if done underhand), and traps.
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I never got anything out of deadlifts so I never do them. I get plenty of lower back work from doing heavy barbell rows. Barbell rows are my favorite exercise for thickening your lower back, lower lats(if done underhand), and traps.
Humping the air like a epileptic in a dance club barbell rows are super safe and effective for low back strength.
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What's your point? Look, I can do the same thing. I can post videos of people with poor deadlifting form. What exactly does it prove? Your videos don't prove that those exercises are not effective. :-\ :-\ :-\
You are asking for a point in totally pointless thread, which is proving just a fact that only few in this forum has mental capacity needed to build muscles by lifting weights. Most of these idiots are just those, who can't do even the simplest exercise with the good form and ROM. Point? If you need one, try this: If you need to ask if deadlift is good exercise, it is obvious that a. you are an idiot and b. you have never done it right. If you say it is useless, it is obvious you are an idiot ;D
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Ropo laying down some truth :D
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It'd be hard to imagine that someone who was actually strong in deadlifts saying they were useless
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Of course it would be significant. It's great that her fitness routine has helped her and I admitted my title for this thread was an exaggeration . I don't agree that all gauges of strength are subjective (which isn't what I said about the deadlift nor does it really make sense, but I'll go with it). If you are strong on bench press, you are strong on almost all chest/ tricep exercises. If you are strong on squats, you are strong on almost all leg exercises. If someone feels that the deadlift helps them, I would never try to convince them not to do it. The point of this thread is that deadlifts have a reputation as the king of all exercises, but I think that is a myth. I think if you look at them objectively, as opposed to just repeating what you've read or heard, you see that they really aren't the all-encompassing workout so many people claim they are.
You can find a problem with any one exercise, one exercise will never take the place of all. There is also the question of what your goals are and what to accomplish, highly variable. I think you'll agree.
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Deadlifts are a great exercise and a lot of Old time Bodybuilders did these compound lifts but later it´s wise to use variety and sculpt your Physique....
"you cannot build a good physique with just a few Basic movements. It is impossible. Just think for a moment. How can an individual build a balanced physique when typically his workout routine includes 15 sets of bench press, 10 sets of squats , only 5 sets of shoulder presses, even less back movements,and probably no forearm,calf,and abdominal work at all?
It´s no wonderour gyms are full of physical monstrosities- men who have unsightly "bunched up upper bodies, heavy hips and "turnip thighs".
V Gironda "The wild Physique"
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You are asking for a point in totally pointless thread, which is proving just a fact that only few in this forum has mental capacity needed to build muscles by lifting weights. Most of these idiots are just those, who can't do even the simplest exercise with the good form and ROM. Point? If you need one, try this: If you need to ask if deadlift is good exercise, it is obvious that a. you are an idiot and b. you have never done it right. If you say it is useless, it is obvious you are an idiot ;D
The OP never said the deadlift was useless. And I never said that either.
The OP was challenging the idea that the deadlift is superior to other exercises, and that similar results can be achieved by doing other back exercises.
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. If you are strong on bench press, you are strong on almost all chest/ tricep exercises. If you are strong on squats, you are strong on almost all leg exercises.
The whole question of exercise carryover - it may it may not. All I did was leg press and got good at, went back to squats I was weaker. Another time all I did for a couple of months was dips and then went back to the bench it didn't fare well either. Don't underestimate neurological adaptation. You are what you train for.
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Yeah, I like doing hyperextensions and with added weight they are great. I hold a plate to my chest while doing them. This machine looks like an interesting take on hypers. There isn't one of this type at the gym I go to.
we use this type of bench in the Gym. Works great for us "Old Boys"... ;D
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I deadlifted today.
You see? And I bet you pulled a ton of weight. And you are probably hench as fuck, too.
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You can find a problem with any one exercise, one exercise will never take the place of all. There is also the question of what your goals are and what to accomplish, highly variable. I think you'll agree.
From what I've said in this thread, one wouldn't assume that I expect any one exercise to take the place of all or to be good in all routines. Seriously, go back and read this thread. It is the proponents of the deadlift who are saying that it is the best exercise, it is the only one you need to do, it is the one exercise that everyone should do, etc. My point has been that people say this all the time and I think this is a pretty transparent myth that people should reconsider automatically buying into.
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The whole question of exercise carryover - it may it may not. All I did was leg press and got good at, went back to squats I was weaker. Another time all I did for a couple of months was dips and then went back to the bench it didn't fare well either. Don't underestimate neurological adaptation. You are what you train for.
Maybe I didn't make this idea clear. To a certain extent I am aiming for brevity and pithiness because it's clear people are choosing to misinterpret what I'm writing at their own discretion. When I say "if you are strong in one exercise, you are strong in all exercises for that bodypart", I don't mean that you only need one exercise. There is a certain element of "practicing" that causes you to go up on a lift. But having an above average bent over row highly suggests you have an above average cable row, and on and on. I'm not saying that doing any exercise for chest is going make you a beast on BPs. But if you were doing an exercise with similar weight and intensity, like say seated hammer press with 3 or 4 plates, when you went back to benches, you would have a pretty decent bench.
It' funny you should mention your experience not benching for a while. About a year ago, I posted in a thread about what happened when I had to back off of intense pushing workouts for a while because of elbow pain. I am the third comment down:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=572735.0
If you don't feel like clicking, I had to replace weight training with intense upper body cardio for about a month. My strength definitely dropped, but I was surprised that I did not have starting over numbers. I have a bench of about 285 and and could still do about 15 solid weight dips. At my peak, I was doing bodyweight dips of around 30 and benching 365 for reps, so that is a drop.
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The OP never said the deadlift was useless. And I never said that either.
The OP was challenging the idea that the deadlift is superior to other exercises, and that similar results can be achieved by doing other back exercises.
Thanks for reading this with an open mind, but actually I've said that I think you can achieve better results with quantifiable progress from other exercises. I don't think the deadlift is completely useless, but I think it is wildly overrated. I think it's less effective than other exercises for building muscle and for building strength.
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Thanks for reading this with an open mind
He doesn't have an open mind, he is prejudiced against deadlifts.
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This study finds deadlifts produce larger elevations in hormone response than other exercises.
http://www.tarleton.edu/Faculty/jblevins/advanced%20exercise%20phys/ContentServer.pdf
???
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He doesn't have an open mind, he is prejudiced against deadlifts.
He's an anti-Deadlite?!
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He's an anti-Deadlite?!
Lol, Kramer.
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Lol, Kramer.
LOL!
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Thanks for reading this with an open mind, but actually I've said that I think you can achieve better results with quantifiable progress from other exercises. I don't think the deadlift is completely useless, but I think it is wildly overrated. I think it's less effective than other exercises for building muscle and for building strength.
Deadlifts have their place in a workout routine, especially if one is a competitive lifter or athlete. And I am sure they even have benefits for the average gym rat.
However, I do not agree with the idea that not doing deadlifts will affect one's quality of life or affect daily living activities. You can definitely maintain a strong back by doing other exercises. In this sense, I think they are overrated. Again, to an olympic lifter, obviously they are not overrated. But you can definitely achieve good results without doing deadlifts.
As for the idea that someone can achieve better results with other exercises (and not the deadlift), well, I will not speak on that. I really do not know any of the science behind exercise physiology.
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Lol, Kramer.
A great Seinfeld episode. :D :D
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This study finds deadlifts produce larger elevations in hormone response than other exercises.
http://www.tarleton.edu/Faculty/jblevins/advanced%20exercise%20phys/ContentServer.pdf
???
That would make sense. I guess your body would need to produce more hormones in response to a more stressful lift (Deadlift as opposed to a bicep curl).
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I think Deadlifts are very useful in say an Abbreviated routine such as Deadlifts, chins, Dips like from Stuart Mc Robert "Brawn". Definitely works but Deadlifts are really full body. If you want to focus on a Bodypart then Deadlifts are not needed. Rather do Barbell Rows for overall Back. Just my opinion.
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I think Deadlifts are very useful in say an Abbreviated routine such as Deadlifts, chins, Dips like from Stuart Mc Robert "Brawn". Definitely works but Deadlifts are really full body. If you want to focus on a Bodypart then Deadlifts are not needed. Rather do Barbell Rows for overall Back. Just my opinion.
Your opinion sucks
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Your opinion sucks
Great answer for a Mod in the Training section. :)
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Deadlifts have their place in a workout routine, especially if one is a competitive lifter or athlete. And I am sure they even have benefits for the average gym rat.
However, I do not agree with the idea that not doing deadlifts will affect one's quality of life or affect daily living activities. You can definitely maintain a strong back by doing other exercises. In this sense, I think they are overrated. Again, to an olympic lifter, obviously they are not overrated. But you can definitely achieve good results without doing deadlifts.
As for the idea that someone can achieve better results with other exercises (and not the deadlift), well, I will not speak on that. I really do not know any of the science behind exercise physiology.
Then it looks like we are actually quite a ways away on this. My pov in this thread is that I don't take the supreme efficacy of deadlifts for granted, not that one can get by without them.
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This study finds deadlifts produce larger elevations in hormone response than other exercises.
http://www.tarleton.edu/Faculty/jblevins/advanced%20exercise%20phys/ContentServer.pdf
???
I didn't read the whole thing, I just did a word search and the study only mentions "deadlifts" specifically twice and that is in conjunction with other exercises that the study describes as "large muscle-mass exercises." One of those exercises is squats, which is an exercise that I've stated should be considered more essential and effective than deadlifts. I can't imagine that this study would not consider heavy bent-over rows a "large muscle-mass exercise."
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I didn't read the whole thing, I just did a word search and the study only mentions "deadlifts" specifically twice and that is in conjunction with other exercises that the study describes as "large muscle-mass exercises." One of those exercises is squats, which is an exercise that I've stated should be considered more essential and effective than deadlifts. I can't imagine that this study would not consider heavy bent-over rows a "large muscle-mass exercise."
Fully correct Squats are more productive "in my opinion" and barbell rows are king as a Basic exercise for the whole back.
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I didn't read the whole thing, I just did a word search and the study only mentions "deadlifts" specifically twice and that is in conjunction with other exercises that the study describes as "large muscle-mass exercises." One of those exercises is squats, which is an exercise that I've stated should be considered more essential and effective than deadlifts. I can't imagine that this study would not consider heavy bent-over rows a "large muscle-mass exercise."
you can state whatever you like however we are still waiting for support for your animus toward the deadlift. I don't believe the reason everyone does them is because they are simply brainwashed. It's not like this is some sort of gimmick that's just emerged.
Perhaps you like to overtrain and therefore you can't fit the deadlift in? I remember you posted your routine which had a lot of volume. It was an interesting routine too. If I'm short on time and had to choose I would deadlift over doing rows. It's just more efficient for training.
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Great answer for a Mod in the Training section. :)
Thank you. 8)
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Thank you. 8)
Sarcasm is above wit ;)
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I came back to training at the end of last september.
looking back I was pretty busted up posture wise, neck pain etc etc etc
funny about this thread today because deadlifts, stiff legs, RDL's, hypers, pull thrus and power cleans among other things have been part of my workouts since I got back(obviously not at the same time), with both lighter(for me) and heavier weights(for me)
my point...I was outside today waiting for someone and realized hey my posture is 100 times better, I stand taller and my neck does not bother me anymore.
Sometimes you don't know the value of things until you lose them, then appreciate them when you get them back.
then you can realize and appreciate what you did to get back there.
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you can state whatever you like however we are still waiting for support for your animus toward the deadlift. I don't believe the reason everyone does them is because they are simply brainwashed. It's not like this is some sort of gimmick that's just emerged.
Perhaps you like to overtrain and therefore you can't fit the deadlift in? I remember you posted your routine which had a lot of volume. It was an interesting routine too. If I'm short on time and had to chose I would deadlift over doing rows. It's just more efficient for training.
I was responding to a study you posted which you presented as "deadlift produces highest hormone response" which isn't really what that study said.
As for support for my "animus" towards the deadlift, I've posted pretty extensive personal experience and multiple video examples of why I think a good deadlift is overrated. There is a fundamental difference between the Ronnie Coleman video you posted and the videos I posted. Ronnie Coleman deadlifts heavy, but he also lifts heavy on other back exercises. All of the people I posted had average (or even below average) physiques yet still pulled impressive deadlift numbers. Some were even wearing high heels while doing it. When I could find them, I posted other lifts by these people and those lifts were far closer to average. Not to mention, Coleman is absolutely destroyed now. So, just in terms of general fitness, his years of heavy lifting didn't do much to help him out.
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you can state whatever you like however we are still waiting for support for your animus toward the deadlift. I don't believe the reason everyone does them is because they are simply brainwashed. It's not like this is some sort of gimmick that's just emerged.
Perhaps you like to overtrain and therefore you can't fit the deadlift in? I remember you posted your routine which had a lot of volume. It was an interesting routine too. If I'm short on time and had to choose I would deadlift over doing rows. It's just more efficient for training.
Short on time yes...Abbreviated training but not "Quality" training for Back or any other single muscle group.
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we use this type of bench in the Gym. Works great for us "Old Boys"... ;D
The equipment at the gym I go to looks like this. Using it has made me feel "light headed" on occasion. This is particularly true if I have not done them for awhile.
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I came back to training at the end of last september.
looking back I was pretty busted up posture wise, neck pain etc etc etc
funny about this thread today because deadlifts, stiff legs, RDL's, hypers, pull thrus and power cleans among other things have been part of my workouts since I got back(obviously not at the same time), with both lighter(for me) and heavier weights(for me)
my point...I was outside today waiting for someone and realized hey my posture is 100 times better, I stand taller and my neck does not bother me anymore.
Sometimes you don't know the value of things until you lose them, then appreciate them when you get them back.
then you can realize and appreciate what you did to get back there.
In previous threads on the subject, I have stated that the greatest benefit of deadlifts that I have experienced is that they are great at managing back pain, which is the main reason I haven't completely removed them from my workouts. That particular benefit seems to be exclusive to deadlifts.
Once again, the title was an exaggeration. Any physical activity has benefits and managing back pain is a pretty major benefit. The points I've been making have been mainly in regards to strength and appearance as it relates to bodybuilding.
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The equipment at the gym I go to looks like this. Using it has made me feel "light headed" on occasion. This is particularly true if I have not done them for awhile.
Being honest that is pretty out dated now doing them like that. The 45 Degree variation is better.
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I was responding to a study you posted which you presented as "deadlift produces highest hormone response" which isn't really what that study said.
As for support for my "animus" towards the deadlift, I've posted pretty extensive personal experience and multiple video examples of why I think a good deadlift is overrated. There is a fundamental difference between the Ronnie Coleman video you posted and the videos I posted. Ronnie Coleman deadlifts heavy, but he also lifts heavy on other back exercises. All of the people I posted had average (or even below average) physiques yet still pulled impressive deadlift numbers. Some were even wearing high heels while doing it. When I could find them, I posted other lifts by these people and those lifts were far closer to average. Not to mention, Coleman is absolutely destroyed now. So, just in terms of general fitness, his years of heavy lifting didn't do much to help him out.
I suspect you are seeking a rationale for eliminating deadlifts from your routine. No matter what evidence is presented you may persist in starting more anti-deadlift threads in an effort to drum up support your agenda. The benefits of the deadlift are well studied and understood; anecdotal and hypothetical scenarios notwithstanding. If you want to support this claim that deadlifts are way overrated, rows are better, show something from an expert who agrees with you or make a better reasoned argument.
for example. Frank Zane never did deadlifts. what's up with that?
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I suspect you are seeking a rationale for eliminating deadlifts from your routine. No matter what evidence is presented you may persist in starting more anti-deadlift threads in an effort to drum up support your agenda. The benefits of the deadlift are well studied and understaood; anecdotal and hypothetical scenarios notwithstanding. If you want to support this claim that deadlifts are way overrated, rows are better, show something from an expert who agrees with you or make a better reasoned argument.
for example. Frank Zane never did deadlifts. what's up with that?
I don't need a rationale to remove anything from my workout. I don't do cardio regularly because I don't want to. If I didn't want to bench, I wouldn't bench. I wouldn't feel obligated to come up with a rationale for why I didn't bench. Also, as I've stated on this page and a few times earlier in this thread, I haven't completely removed dls from my workout. I'm looking less for a rationale to remove dls and more for a rationale to include them.
Do you disagree that many people who have strong deadlifts have physiques that aren't reflective of that? Do you find that to be as common with other large muscle mass lifts?
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Being honest that is pretty out dated now doing them like that. The 45 Degree variation is better.
I agree. When I get to the gym today, I'll ask them why they don't update their outdated equipment. Surely they will run right out and get the 45 degree style extension equipment....just for me! ;D
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I don't need a rationale to remove anything from my workout. I don't do cardio regularly because I don't want to. If I didn't want to bench, I wouldn't bench. I wouldn't feel obligated to come up with a rationale for why I didn't bench. Also, as I've stated on this page and a few times earlier in this thread, I haven't completely removed dls from my workout. I'm looking less for a rationale to remove dls and more for a rationale to include them.
Do you disagree that many people who have strong deadlifts have physiques that aren't reflective of that? Do you find that to be as common with other large muscle mass lifts?
I do disagree. A good deadlift will give you a nice thick neck which is great. It also promotes a powerful 3D look that is just hard to get. This is something Frank Zane didn't have.
Some people have strong lifts for biomechanical reasons. Having short arms will make it hard to deadlift and easy to bench. Arnold had a pretty good deadlift and a not so good bench for these reasons. Dorian had long femurs and never squatted. This phenomenon is not at all unique to deadlifting. Your mind has just latched on to this and will accept almost anything to support the thesis!
Do you have short arms? ;D
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I agree. When I get to the gym today, I'll ask them why they don't update their outdated equipment. Surely they will run right out and get the 45 degree style extension equipment....just for me! ;D
Ha.. ;D but honestly i have also worked in a Gym where we had a bench where you were in a kneeling position and i see people doing this now on youtube on the floor. Whatever the case 45 Degree is better for targeting lower back. Much safer than Deadlifts. If doing a well thought out workout you do not need Deadlifts.
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I do disagree. A good dealift will give you a nice thick neck which is great. It also promotes a powerful 3D look that is just hard to get. This is something Frank Zane didn't have.
Some people have strong lifts for biomechanical reasons. Having short arms will make it hard to deadlift and easy to bench. Arnold had a pretty good deadlift and a not so good bench for these reasons. Dorian had long femurs and never squatted. This phenomenon is not at all unique to deadlifting. Your mind has just latched on to this and will accept almost anything to support the thesis!
Do you have short arms? ;D
You disagree despite me posting several examples of such people and it literally taking seconds to find dozens of other video examples on youtube? Yet I'm the one who isn't looking at things reasonably? ???
There are many people who perform deadlifts that don't have a thick 3d look. There are many people who don't deadlift who do have a 3d look. Frank Zane didn't have any impressive bodyparts, so the fact that he didn't deadlift and didn't have a 3d look doesn't really count for much.
What has my mind latched on to? You just listed some examples that had nothing to do with anything I said and then you claimed that my mind latched onto something, which I'm not even sure what you were referring to. Why you're trying to convince yourself that I am looking for permission from this board not to perform deadlifts, I don't get. It doesn't really make sense. You're also trying to spin my position as deadlifts being something I find too difficult which also doesn't make sense. Since you've addressed things I've written in previous threads about the deadlift, you're aware that I didn't try to max out and got up to five plates. I'm not someone who has any issues performing a deadlift.
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I do disagree. A good dealift will give you a nice thick neck which is great. It also promotes a powerful 3D look that is just hard to get. This is something Frank Zane didn't have.
Some people have strong lifts for biomechanical reasons. Having short arms will make it hard to deadlift and easy to bench. Arnold had a pretty good deadlift and a not so good bench for these reasons. Dorian had long femurs and never squatted. This phenomenon is not at all unique to deadlifting. Your mind has just latched on to this and will accept almost anything to support the thesis!
Do you have short arms? ;D
Zane had a Herculean Body and was Mr O. I wonder why?
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You disagree despite me posting several examples of such people and it literally taking seconds to find dozens of other video examples on youtube? Yet I'm the one who isn't looking at things reasonably? ???
There are many people who perform deadlifts that don't have a thick 3d look. There are many people who don't deadlift who do have a 3d look. Frank Zane didn't have any impressive bodyparts, so the fact that he didn't deadlift and didn't have a 3d look doesn't really count for much.
What has my mind latched on to? You just listed some examples that had nothing to do with anything I said and then you claimed that my mind latched onto something, which I'm not even sure what you were referring to. Why you're trying to convince yourself that I am looking for permission from this board not to perform deadlifts, I don't get. It doesn't really make sense. You're also trying to spin my position as deadlifts being something I find too difficult which also doesn't make sense. Since you've addressed things I've written in previous threads about the deadlift, you're aware that I didn't try to max out and got up to five plates. I'm not someone who has any issues performing a deadlift.
a dwarf will press 300+lbs no problem
hey does this mean bench press is overrated? no it doesn't but here's an example for you anyway.
I'm not trying to spin anything. Since you haven't made a strong case I'm just trying to figure out why you keep making this claim. You've latched onto this concept of a deadlift being inferior. I assume it's personal. I don't know why deadlifting has given you so much unhappiness but sadly it's got nothing to do with the efficacy of the movement.
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a dwarf will press 300+lbs no problem
hey does this mean bench press is overrated? no it doesn't but here's an example for you anyway.
I'm not trying to spin anything. Since you haven't made a strong case I'm just trying to figure out why you keep making this claim. You've latched onto this concept of a deadlift being inferior. I assume it's personal. I don't know why deadlifting has given you so much unhappiness but sadly it's got nothing to do with the efficacy of the movement.
You made up an imaginary position for me that had nothing to do with what I said and then started arguin with it. If that's not spin... ::)
Also, another bizarre counterpoint from you. Of course, shorter limbs have an easier time leveraging more weight on a bench press. How is this related to the videos I posted earlier? The videos featured men of normal height, skinny women in heels and old ladies. What biomechanical advantage did these people have that explained their big deadlifts?
My argument was never as shallow as a skinny person or a dwarf can do a deadlift, so it must not be a good exercise.My argument consisted of the following points:
1)DEADLIFTS ARE NOT A GOOD BODYBUILDING EXERCISE
Most people who posted in this thread admitted to this, though many felt that it was still the king of "functional exercises".
2)DEADLIFTS ARE NOT A PARTICULARLY GOOD GAUGE OF STRENGTH
Improving your deadlift doesn't have much effect on other back or leg lifts. This kind of strength transference to different exercises for the same bodypart is true of almost no other power movement.
3)ONE CAN PERFORM DEADLIFTS REGULARLY WITHOUT THE RESULTS SHOWING UP IN ONE'S PHYSIQUE
Posted multiple video examples of this.
All of these things are true and in one way or another, most people have acknowledged these points at some point in the thread. Most of the resistance to the concept as a whole is conditioning, to a certain extent. I get that. That's why I started the thread, to challenge that notion. Like most deadlift proponents, your argument just came down to buzzwords (or lying) . It was the same vague "grip strength, posterior chain, other applications argument" with "3d look" thrown in.
etaIf someone asks me what the benefits of a bicep curl or squats or bench press are, I can give them a very clear answer. I will tell them the advantages and limitations and what they won't do. This is not how deadlift proponents answer questions about deadlifts. This is not how anyone explained what the benefits of the deadlift are in in this thread. If you get someone to admit that the deadlift is not a good bodybuilding exercise ( which happens frequently) then they resort to the "posterior chain, grip strength, etc" thing. This would be like if someone asked me about the benefits of bicep curls and I said "they give you arm flexibility, the strength the uptake on chinups and they also increase your ability to supinate your wrist in daily life. "
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a dwarf will press 300+lbs no problem
hey does this mean bench press is overrated? no it doesn't but here's an example for you anyway.
I'm not trying to spin anything. Since you haven't made a strong case I'm just trying to figure out why you keep making this claim. You've latched onto this concept of a deadlift being inferior. I assume it's personal. I don't know why deadlifting has given you so much unhappiness but sadly it's got nothing to do with the efficacy of the movement.
Bench press is over rated as a chest movement. Dips and Flys are superior.
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Bench press is over rated as a chest movement. Dips and Flys are superior.
::)
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You disagree despite me posting several examples of such people and it literally taking seconds to find dozens of other video examples on youtube? Yet I'm the one who isn't looking at things reasonably? ???
There are many people who perform deadlifts that don't have a thick 3d look. There are many people who don't deadlift who do have a 3d look. Frank Zane didn't have any impressive bodyparts, so the fact that he didn't deadlift and didn't have a 3d look doesn't really count for much.
What has my mind latched on to? You just listed some examples that had nothing to do with anything I said and then you claimed that my mind latched onto something, which I'm not even sure what you were referring to. Why you're trying to convince yourself that I am looking for permission from this board not to perform deadlifts, I don't get. It doesn't really make sense. You're also trying to spin my position as deadlifts being something I find too difficult which also doesn't make sense. Since you've addressed things I've written in previous threads about the deadlift, you're aware that I didn't try to max out and got up to five plates. I'm not someone who has any issues performing a deadlift.
Zane actually did alot of rack pulls
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::)
explain why not training "mod" :)
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You made up an imaginary position for me that had nothing to do with what I said and then started arguin with it. If that's not spin... ::)
My argument consisted of the following points:
1)DEADLIFTS ARE NOT A GOOD BODYBUILDING EXERCISE
Most people who posted in this thread admitted to this, though many felt that it was still the king of "functional exercises".
2)DEADLIFTS ARE NOT A PARTICULARLY GOOD GAUGE OF STRENGTH
Improving your deadlift doesn't have much effect on other back or leg lifts. This kind of strength transference to different exercises for the same bodypart is true of almost no other power movement.
3)ONE CAN PERFORM DEADLIFTS REGULARLY WITHOUT THE RESULTS SHOWING UP IN ONE'S PHYSIQUE
Posted multiple video examples of this.
Your original post contained nothing about cosmetic effects, which is now 2/3 of your point above. You said they were not a good gauge of strength, then struggled to make a case for it. Maybe you did on the volumes of text in the middle pages, but judging by the current comments, it appears you have not.
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Your original post contained nothing about cosmetic effects, which is now 2/3 of your point above. You said they were not a good gauge of strength, then struggled to make a case for it. Maybe you did on the volumes of text in the middle pages, but judging by the current comments, it appears you have not.
My original post (along with the title of the thread) was referencing previous deadlift discussions that have taken place on this board. Even if you weren't aware of them while reading the opening post, I posted quotes from some of those threads-the first one only 5 slots down on the first page- and they mention appearance. The eighth post on the first page is from me and mentions appearance again. All of this was before your first post in this thread and the posts are of reasonable lengths. I mention appearance on almost every page of this thread. On page 3, I posted 5 videos in response to someone who said my claim that good deadlift =/= impressive physique wasinaccurate.
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You made up an imaginary position for me that had nothing to do with what I said and then started arguin with it. If that's not spin... ::)
Also, another bizarre counterpoint from you. Of course, shorter limbs have an easier time leveraging more weight on a bench press. How is this related to the videos I posted earlier? The videos featured men of normal height, skinny women in heels and old ladies. What biomechanical advantage did these people have that explained their big deadlifts?
My argument was never as shallow as a skinny person or a dwarf can do a deadlift, so it must not be a good exercise.My argument consisted of the following points:
1)DEADLIFTS ARE NOT A GOOD BODYBUILDING EXERCISE
Most people who posted in this thread admitted to this, though many felt that it was still the king of "functional exercises".
2)DEADLIFTS ARE NOT A PARTICULARLY GOOD GAUGE OF STRENGTH
Improving your deadlift doesn't have much effect on other back or leg lifts. This kind of strength transference to different exercises for the same bodypart is true of almost no other power movement.
3)ONE CAN PERFORM DEADLIFTS REGULARLY WITHOUT THE RESULTS SHOWING UP IN ONE'S PHYSIQUE
Posted multiple video examples of this.
All of these things are true and in one way or another, most people have acknowledged these points at some point in the thread. Most of the resistance to the concept as a whole is conditioning, to a certain extent. I get that. That's why I started the thread, to challenge that notion. Like most deadlift proponents, your argument just came down to buzzwords (or lying) . It was the same vague "grip strength, posterior chain, other applications argument" with "3d look" thrown in.
etaIf someone asks me what the benefits of a bicep curl or squats or bench press are, I can give them a very clear answer. I will tell them the advantages and limitations and what they won't do. This is not how deadlift proponents answer questions about deadlifts. This is not how anyone explained what the benefits of the deadlift are in in this thread. If you get someone to admit that the deadlift is not a good bodybuilding exercise ( which happens frequently) then they resort to the "posterior chain, grip strength, etc" thing. This would be like if someone asked me about the benefits of bicep curls and I said "they give you arm flexibility, the strength the uptake on chinups and they also increase your ability to supinate your wrist in daily life. "
I guess what's missing is some proof that not doing deadlifts is so great. All I see are examples of people doing deadlifts and being quite happy about themselves for many good reasons. I don't feel this is the right material to prove deadlifts are inferior. We need to see the examples of non-deadlifters. The burden of proof has fallen on you since you're taking this position.
Johnnie Jackson has a nice 3D look ;), huge lower back, traps etc. he doesn't deadlift much anymore but would he claim deadlifting is useless? I doubt it. Not everyone wants to look like vince gironda.
The reasons people deadlift have progressed into a truism for probably good reason. It's a core strength, compound, mass building exercise. :D
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Two bodybuilders with the biggest backs ever Yates/Coleman both did deadlifts on a regular basis.
Both these idiots were clearly wasting there time.
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oh and that granny in the original post I checked it out and she most definitely has the 3D look going on
:D
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Two bodybuilders with the biggest backs ever Yates/Coleman both did deadlifts on a regular basis.
Both these idiots were clearly wasting there time.
The problem with this assertion is that they also did A LOT of other back exercises, so its impossible to tell what exercise really contributed to their overall back development. Was it solely deadlifts? Or was it a combination of back exercises? Dorian also did a SHIT ton of barbell rows and pullovers. So, why not assume that barbell rows contributed to his overall back development? Why are you assuming it was deadlifts? How do you know this? Or, would they still have had great backs without deadlifting, given their superior genetics.
The only way to prove this is to run randomized controlled clinical trials where you have an experimental and control group. One group does ONLY deadlifts, and another groups does a variety of exercises (or maybe just one back exercise). You try to hold all other variables constant, then see which group had a greater improvement in strength and size.
Until then, its a baseless assumption to assume that Ronnie and Dorian had great backs because they deadlifted. Both also did barbell rows. So, maybe it was barbell rows that contributed to their back development more.
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The only way to prove this is to run randomized controlled clinical trials where you have an experimental and control group. One group does ONLY deadlifts, and another groups does a variety of exercises (or maybe just one back exercise). You try to hold all other variables constant, then see which group had a greater improvement in strength and size.
Hulkotron has been overseeing this exact trial for the past two years.
Once he gives me the data, I will let you know the results.
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I guess what's missing is some proof that not doing deadlifts is so great. All I see are examples of people doing deadlifts and being quite happy about themselves for many good reasons. I don't feel this is the right material to prove deadlifts are inferior. We need to see the examples of non-deadlifters. The burden of proof has fallen on you since you're taking this position.
Johnnie Jackson has a nice 3D look ;), huge lower back, traps etc. he doesn't deadlift much anymore but would he claim deadlifting is useless? I doubt it. Not everyone wants to look like vince gironda.
The reasons people deadlift have progressed into a truism for probably good reason. It's a core strength, compound, mass building exercise. :D
Again, I find this an odd counterpoint. Firstly, the idea of "burden of proof" in a thread about deadlifting on
the gossip and opinion board of an internet forum is ::) ??? ::). More to the point, what you're saying counts as proof is even more subjective than what I've already posted. Like someone posted earlier, your mind has latched on to this and you will accept anything to support your thesis.
A more reasonable challenge is the opposite: Deadlifts have a reputation as king of strength and muscle building movements. That's what you're claiming. Several people in this thread have stated that is the one movement you need or if they could only do one exercise, that would be it. You, yourself, have posted a variation of that. So, if the deadlift is the only movement you need, who are the people who have built great bodies using only or not much more than deadlifts?
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Hulkotron has been overseeing this exact trial for the past two years.
Once he gives me the data, I will let you know the results.
You do not have to worry about giving me the results. I am co-investigator on the research project. Hulkotron had difficulties understanding effect sizes, so I had to assist him with this.
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The equipment at the gym I go to looks like this. Using it has made me feel "light headed" on occasion. This is particularly true if I have not done them for awhile.
It's called a Roman Chair.
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The OP never said the deadlift was useless. And I never said that either.
The OP was challenging the idea that the deadlift is superior to other exercises, and that similar results can be achieved by doing other back exercises.
So why this is a headline of this topic: "This is why I say deadlifts are basically useless "?
In other words it means that this bozo has a reason to think that DL are useless, and that has to mean he have some kind of divine information about the matter, because hundred of thousands bodybuilders since this sport has invented, are all wasting their time with this useless exercise. If you look where we are, among the foil hats, little brats and fools, I have to say that his divine information is more likely something he has eaten, than something what he has being thinking through and through. It is obvious that heavy multi joint exercises are beneficial, there isn't really any question about it, if you little fuckers have done your homework. It is apparent that this isn't the case, so this thread has to have born from the head of utterly stupid person.
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Your original post contained nothing about cosmetic effects, which is now 2/3 of your point above. You said they were not a good gauge of strength, then struggled to make a case for it. Maybe you did on the volumes of text in the middle pages, but judging by the current comments, it appears you have not.
Typical foil hat tactics : IF you seem to be wrong, just move the goal posts, and slide to another subject ;D
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It's called a Roman Chair.
the term "Roman Chair" is used loosly. The original was a sit up bench guys like Arnold used and Zabo for ab training. People use the bench prime is talking about primarily for lower back work. Some use it in a reverse fashion doing sit ups(not recomended). The original bench Arnold used had your feet positioned near the floor so you were in a sitting position. The rocking motion was to keep your abs under tension. Arnold put a block of wood under it to incline it...later the "Roman chair" was built at an angle. You can do the original version sitting sideways on a bench feet braced on the floor,Bill pearl calls these, "over a bench sit ups", just saying
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The original version shown by Zabo and Frank Zane..
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the term "Roman Chair" is used loosly. The original was a sit up bench guys like Arnold used and Zabo for ab training. People use the bench prime is talking about primarily for lower back work. Some use it in a reverse fashion doing sit ups(not recomended). The original bench Arnold used had your feet positioned near the floor so you were in a sitting position. The rocking motion was to keep your abs under tension. Arnold put a block of wood under it to incline it...later the "Roman chair" was built at an angle. You can do the original version sitting sideways on a bench feet braced on the floor,Bill pearl calls these, "over a bench sit ups", just saying
Agreed it does have multiple variations and the term is definitely used loosely.
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Agreed it does have multiple variations and the term is definitely used loosely.
Like Donnys ass?
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The original version shown by Zabo and Frank Zane..
When I first started weightlifting, I would see these advertised in Muscle and Fitness and wanted one so bad. I was doing hundreds of situps a day and thought that this would turn me into a walking pile of abs.
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Abs are mostly diet, for me.
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Abs are mostly diet, for me.
I was 13/14. Everything I didn't have seemed like magic.
That being said, I see a big difference on me between dieted down abs, dieted down and killing it with ab work abs, and abs I've been killing with ab work before I dieted down. Alas, I try to spend no more than an hour in the gym, so I usually skip out on ab work until I'm dieting.
I posted about this a little while ago, but I've been holding in my gut on most movements. My bodyfat percentage is on the higher side for me right now, but my stomach is flat and hard and I can see ab definition when I flex.
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Didn't read the entire thread Al, but I never really cared for standard dead lifts as part of my routine. Thought it was a power lifting move mostly. Tried them for a while and hit 455 but didn't really see a big change in my physique. My lower back felt like it was taking a beating though.
On the other hand, when I switched to stiff leg dead lifts for hamstrings - boom - they grew like crazy. Wouldn't have believed it. I used lying and standing leg curl machines for years and never saw much happen.
I use 275-315 max for 6-10 reps, depending on how I feel. The entire hamstring/glute/lower back muscles work together smoothly and the changes in your physique are worth it. I'm no longer bothering with leg curls - don't need to do them anymore.
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On the other hand, when I switched to stiff leg dead lifts for hamstrings - boom - they grew like crazy. Wouldn't have believed it. I used lying and standing leg curl machines for years and never saw much happen.
I use 275-315 max for 6-10 reps, depending on how I feel. The entire hamstring/glute/lower back muscles work together smoothly and the changes in your physique are worth it. I'm no longer bothering with leg curls - don't need to do them anymore.
Love SLDLs, but something about my positioning makes them more of a lower back exercise. To hit hamstrings and glutes, I've been doing a variation of which I'm not sure of the name. It's basically SLDL, but instead of using a bar, I hold a plate tight across my chest. I'm not sure why, but that little change really causes me to feel it in my glutes and hams. Even when not using weight, just doing the movement with my arms crossed makes a big difference in comparison to having my arms hang down.
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When I first started weightlifting, I would see these advertised in Muscle and Fitness and wanted one so bad. I was doing hundreds of situps a day and thought that this would turn me into a walking pile of abs.
ha..we all did you were not alone. ;D
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I was 13/14. Everything I didn't have seemed like magic.
That being said, I see a big difference on me between dieted down abs, dieted down and killing it with ab work abs, and abs I've been killing with ab work before I dieted down. Alas, I try to spend no more than an hour in the gym, so I usually skip out on ab work until I'm dieting.
I posted about this a little while ago, but I've been holding in my gut on most movements. My bodyfat percentage is on the higher side for me right now, but my stomach is flat and hard and I can see ab definition when I flex.
They do look better (dieted down) if being regularly exercised. I avoid weighted crunches because they make my abs grow out, LOL!
In terms of dieting these days, I just try to be reasonable and watch sugar. No idea about boodyfat, but would guess it's less than 20%.
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Like Donnys ass?
haha nice :D
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It's called a Roman Chair.
Thanks. It is interesting to look the different Roman Chair designs and the variety of exercises one can do on it. Because the design I pictured cannot be adjusted for various waist to foot measurements, it can be awkward to use for some folks. I tried lowering the rollers which go behind the heels and found I could not get into the machine. This might have something to do with a lack of flexibility. In all the years I've been going to this gym, I have yet to see someone use it for sit-ups. There are a number of angled sit-up devices at the gym which work better and offer more support.
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Abs are mostly diet, for me.
Agreed. My abs are hard as rocks. Unfortunately I don't have "thin skin" so it takes a lot for them to show. I'm already lean. If I were leaner, I'd be downright skinny. -Not sure what my fat percentage currently is at, but it can't be much since the veins on my arms, legs, chest and even stomach stand out in relief as it they were on top of the skin.
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Again, I find this an odd counterpoint. Firstly, the idea of "burden of proof" in a thread about deadlifting on
the gossip and opinion board of an internet forum is ::) ??? ::). More to the point, what you're saying counts as proof is even more subjective than what I've already posted. Like someone posted earlier, your mind has latched on to this and you will accept anything to support your thesis.
A more reasonable challenge is the opposite: Deadlifts have a reputation as king of strength and muscle building movements. That's what you're claiming. Several people in this thread have stated that is the one movement you need or if they could only do one exercise, that would be it. You, yourself, have posted a variation of that. So, if the deadlift is the only movement you need, who are the people who have built great bodies using only or not much more than deadlifts?
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Reeves rightly prioritized deadlifts over rows
Reeves classic physique
Squat – 3 x 8-12
Barbell/Dumbbell Row – 3 x 8-12….Deadlift – 3 x 5* see note
Behind the Neck Press – 3 x 8-12
Bench Press – 3 x 8-12
Barbell/Dumbbell Curl – 3 x 8-12
Dips – 5 x 10 @ BW (bodyweight). Try for sets of 10.
Barbell Calf Raise – 3 x 15-20
AB work
Perform M-W-F
**On Friday drop BB row and do 3×5 deadlifts** Deadlifts are to be done Reg Park style. 2 warmup/ 1 heavy work set.
http://muscleandbrawn.com/steve-reeves-intermediate-full-body-workout-variation/
(http://deadlifting.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/4/2/20427303/2740918.jpg)
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Reeves rightly prioritized deadlifts over rows
Reeves classic physique
Squat – 3 x 8-12
Barbell/Dumbbell Row – 3 x 8-12….Deadlift – 3 x 5* see note
Behind the Neck Press – 3 x 8-12
Bench Press – 3 x 8-12
Barbell/Dumbbell Curl – 3 x 8-12
Dips – 5 x 10 @ BW (bodyweight). Try for sets of 10.
Barbell Calf Raise – 3 x 15-20
AB work
Perform M-W-F
**On Friday drop BB row and do 3×5 deadlifts** Deadlifts are to be done Reg Park style. 2 warmup/ 1 heavy work set.
http://muscleandbrawn.com/steve-reeves-intermediate-full-body-workout-variation/
(http://deadlifting.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/4/2/20427303/2740918.jpg)
Steve Reeves was a fan of Cable work for lats..like Gironda was too. In his Book, "Building the classsic Physique the natural way" his lat workout was:
Chin behind neck or lat pulldown behind neck 3x8-12
Low pulley lat pull 3x8-12
one arm row 3x8-12(dumbbell)
Lower back he worked with Good mornings 3x8-12
of course he no doubt used Deads time to time but mainly Good Mornings and seated. He writes in his book he switched to good mornings because he felt Deads and squats together gave too much glute work.
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Not sure what this is supposed to be proving? This is supposed to be an example of the kind of great body you can build using only deadlifts? ???
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Reeves rightly prioritized deadlifts over rows
Reeves classic physique
Squat – 3 x 8-12
Barbell/Dumbbell Row – 3 x 8-12….Deadlift – 3 x 5* see note
Behind the Neck Press – 3 x 8-12
Bench Press – 3 x 8-12
Barbell/Dumbbell Curl – 3 x 8-12
Dips – 5 x 10 @ BW (bodyweight). Try for sets of 10.
Barbell Calf Raise – 3 x 15-20
AB work
Perform M-W-F
**On Friday drop BB row and do 3×5 deadlifts** Deadlifts are to be done Reg Park style. 2 warmup/ 1 heavy work set.
http://muscleandbrawn.com/steve-reeves-intermediate-full-body-workout-variation/
(http://deadlifting.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/4/2/20427303/2740918.jpg)
Not that I'm convinced of the veracity of this workout either way, but in the link you posted, this isn't the workout Reeves performed. This was cooked up by the author of that article. What's presented as Reeves' workout has more dumbbell row sets earlier in the workout.
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Not that I'm convinced of the veracity of this workout either way, but in the link you posted, this isn't the workout Reeves performed. This was cooked up by the author of that article. What's presented as Reeves' workout has more dumbbell row sets earlier in the workout.
you can't dispute this. Doesn't matter anyway donny is probably right reeve ditched deadlifts too. Just like you did.
that's why he doesn't have a powerful look. He gave up on it. Sorry to have posted this.
regardless it seems you sir have committed to this line of reasoning for one simple reason.
you are highly ignorant of the history of physical culture.
you have no standing to comment on this subject.
hope this helps.
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Hey Doggity
let me put it this way.
I like you
I like your posts
you're a good guy
just stop posting about deadlifting and we can remain comrades.
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you can't dispute this. Doesn't matter anyway donny is probably right reeve ditched deadlifts too. Just like you did.
that's why he doesn't have a powerful look. He gave up on it. Sorry to have posted this.
There's nothing to dispute. What I said is right there in the link you posted and you literally apologized for posting as it didn't even prove whatever it was you were trying to prove.
regardless it seems you sir have committed to this line of reasoning for one simple reason.
you are highly ignorant of the history of physical culture.
you have no standing to comment on this subject.
hope this helps.
Once again, no concrete argument about the benefits of the deadlift."Highly ignorant of physical culture?" ::)
Hey Doggity
let me put it this way.
I like you
I like your posts
you're a good guy
just stop posting about deadlifting and we can remain comrades.
You just posted that you want to be buds with me, but you can't if I talk shit about deadlifts. I'm not gonna analyze that any further. I will leave that up to whoever is still checking in on this thread.
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I'm deadlifting in a few hours. Should I be worried?
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Jon Pall died deadlifting (his heart tore), so I guess he really meant it...
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Getbiggers take the big 3 very seriously.
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Getbiggers take the big 3" very seriously.
:o
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Getbiggers take the big 3 very seriously.
Some of us.
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Jon Pall died deadlifting (his heart tore), so I guess he really meant it...
Pre-existing hereditary defect. Nothing to do with deadlifts, or the injectables. :D
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Pre-existing hereditary defect. Nothing to do with deadlifts, or the injectables. :D
You don't believe injectables or carrying around excess weight can affect hereditary heart defects?
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You don't believe injectables or carrying around excess weight can affect hereditary heart defects?
Never understood why people create such a dichotomous view regarding nature vs. nurture.
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Never understood why people create such a dichotomous view regarding nature vs. nurture.
There's always an excuse about why injectable substances or lifestyle have nothing to do with early deaths.
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There's always an excuse about why injectable substances or lifestyle have nothing to do with early deaths.
Most research these days points to a combination of genes and environment. Its hardly every one or the other. Obviously, in certain situations there are. Yet, Flex magazine is always saying it was a "congenital defect." ;D ;D